Are you sure? With Meazza playing his Inside-right role, you might get exposed there?
Not a good idea for any forward to have one-to-one opportunities with the CB.
The Euro Draft - QF - harms vs crappy
- Thread starter Balu
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Not a good idea for any forward to have one-to-one opportunities with the CB.
I love harms team, esp their impeccable Euro credentials but there seems to be something off about his forward line. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've read Sarosi, he seems more like a complete footballer who was best utilized as a second-striker or as an inside left/right, back in those days. Even if he played in the centre-forward position I don't think he played as a traditional spearheading one but rather a free roaming one who loved to drop deep. He resembles more of a goalscoring creative player in a free role more than a Piola as a reference point up top for example. Same thing for Meazza as a free roaming creative goalscorer who functioned best in a central role behind a more traditional centre-forward. Also didn't he play more as an inside left than an inside right?
Throw in Dzajic who had a good goalscoring record but was primarily an outside left who loved getting chalk on his boots, similar to Czibor in this regard in that they were both primarily known for their wingsmanship despite their impressive goalscoring records. I would have either preferred a more conventional centre-forward up front or a more erm disciplined, for lack of a better term, inside forward like say Ronaldo or Rummenigge. Don't get me wrong both Dzajic and Meazza had great goalscoring rates (esp the latter) throughout their careers but there just seems to be something about their playing styles which I don't think is complementary with Sarosi. Happy to be corrected here though and would love more info on how they will function as an unit. @harms
The midfield is spot on though with Schuster-van Moer-Voronin forming an impressive unit. Brehme-Dzajic is
in the Euros.
Throw in Dzajic who had a good goalscoring record but was primarily an outside left who loved getting chalk on his boots, similar to Czibor in this regard in that they were both primarily known for their wingsmanship despite their impressive goalscoring records. I would have either preferred a more conventional centre-forward up front or a more erm disciplined, for lack of a better term, inside forward like say Ronaldo or Rummenigge. Don't get me wrong both Dzajic and Meazza had great goalscoring rates (esp the latter) throughout their careers but there just seems to be something about their playing styles which I don't think is complementary with Sarosi. Happy to be corrected here though and would love more info on how they will function as an unit. @harms
The midfield is spot on though with Schuster-van Moer-Voronin forming an impressive unit. Brehme-Dzajic is
in the Euros.That goes both ways then. Platini's performance in his best ever Euro translate to almost 2 goals per game. Are we saying he will definitely be scoring 2 goals here?
In fact every single one of my midfielders have superb pedigree in Euro competitions. Other may underrate Senna but he was touted as the most critical piece in Spanish jigsaw in Euros 2008 ( even if Xavi was their best player), Tigana had best year of his career in 84 and Ceulemans was arguably Belgium's best player in 1980.
Yes. Meazza playing inside right means, he will operate in the same area as Senna. That why the Spanish DM is stationed in that position.
Regardless using your logic you can never have a formation where only full back is present against a winger + full back combo. That is not how it works in real world football. Bar Rosetti taking care of attack from the left, no one is truly man marking anyone here.
- Senna's is pretty much in Makelele role, sitting in front of the defense to close down space for Meazza or Schuster, with primary emphasis on Meazza's space.
- Hellas will be covering Sarosi when he is in the box or if Scirea picks up Sarosi, he can tend to Meazza as well.
- Scirea's role I have already explained.
- Krol will defend if Meazza go out wide but he is not going to follow him infield. Any threat out right, will be his responsibility. But given he has played as CB, he can always tuck in with Dellas if needed
In addition to this, Tigana is a complete midfield who will track Schuster whenever he bursts forward.
In any case I am not too concerned with the opposition midfield. Since they will be in reactive mode against Platini.
With all the talk of Dargan so far, how is @harms planning to stop a peak Platini impacting the game?
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Thanks for pointing this out. I am in office right now so will read up more on Sarosi later on at home (Though I have an office happy hour to attend in betweenI love harms team, esp their impeccable Euro credentials but there seems to be something off about his forward line. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've read Sarosi, he seems more like a complete footballer who was best utilized as a second-striker or as an inside left/right, back in those days. Even if he played in the centre-forward position I don't think he played as a traditional spearheading one but rather a free roaming one who loved to drop deep. He resembles more of a goalscoring creative player in a free role more than a Piola as a reference point up top for example. Same thing for Meazza as a free roaming creative goalscorer who functioned best in a central role behind a more traditional centre-forward. Also didn't he play more as an inside left than an inside right?
Throw in Dzajic who had a good goalscoring record but was primarily an outside left who loved getting chalk on his boots, similar to Czibor in this regard in that they were both primarily known for their wingsmanship despite their impressive goalscoring records. I would have either preferred a more conventional centre-forward up front or a more erm disciplined, for lack of a better term, inside forward like say Ronaldo or Rummenigge. Don't get me wrong both Dzajic and Meazza had great goalscoring rates (esp the latter) throughout their careers but there just seems to be something about their playing styles which I don't think is complementary with Sarosi. Happy to be corrected here though and would love more info on how they will function as an unit. @harms
The midfield is spot on though with Schuster-van Moer-Voronin forming an impressive unit. Brehme-Dzajic is
)I would say this about his forward line, I am not sure how many of them willing be helping out the defensive unit of harms' team. I showed in my defensive phase graphic as to how having Platini, Figo and Ceulemams as part of attacking unit means, they will also fall back and close down the space for the opposing team when not in possession. I don't think same is true for harm's team. That is why I said his midfield will need help from the front 3 that they may not get
He is often used as a midfielder in those drafts, because of his versatility, it's easy to depict him as a complete player who will do everything. But he played both as a centre-forward (target-man) and as a inside-forward in his peak years and he was mainly a goalscorer at his peak. In his game against Czechoslovakia (against Planicka), for example, he started the game as an inside-forward, scored a goal, but in the second time the coach moved him to a centre-forward position and he scored 6 more - and this is his best European performance at his peak years. He is a very physical (hence his central defensive role in the beginning), technical striker - a more complete John Charles if you might. I understand what you are getting at - I was sure that he is more like you described him, but after reading up on him I have to say that this is his best position in my opinion.
Here's some poacher goals from him from CEIC:
On Meazza:
Meazza was 24 and had around 20 caps to his name when Italy hosted the 1934 FIFA World Cup™. Such were the team’s attacking riches, however, that Pozzo decided to switch him from the centre-forward position to the right wing, where his elusive dribbling would unsettle defences and create openings for his team-mates.
His best position was definitely inside-right, even if he played on the left and centrally at times, everywhere where I read it, it says that. Sarosi will provide a physical presence and Meazza will thrive in his beloved inside-right channel.
With Van Moer playing his CM/RM hybrid like he did at Euro's, I think that Meazza is given a best position possible to shine here.
No, because Dzajic record is spread at 2 Euro's, 8 years apart. Sarosi also scored 2 goals per game at his best tournament, I'm not saying that he will here, but Dzajic beat everyone and I'm not seeing how an inferior defender will be more successful than Vogts or Burgnich here.
@Joga Bonito
1938 World Cup final formation
At his very best, I think, he was a true complete №9 - dominant in the air and capable of doing a "John Charles" and dropping in defence when they needed to defend the lead.
“He was only a boy, but on the pitch it seemed like he was the man playing against kids in the park,” said Zoltan Blum, who handed Sarosi his bow. “It was just so easy to him. He was big, really strong, quick, never lost a header. He was impossible to bully. Moreover, he played with such confidence – even at that age he played with the confidence of a captain. He would stride out of the defence with the ball, taking on opponents and launching attacks." - this is about his early years in central defence.
“Scoring seven goals in an international is almost impossible, yet alone past the great Planicka,” commented his coach that day, Karoly Dietz. “But ‘Gyurka’ was the greatest goalscorer of his era – just look at his statistics.”
Tellingly, between March 1934 and December 1938, when he was invariably if not exclusively positioned up front, Sarosi struck 37 times in 29 internationals – a staggering ratio for a man who also made European XIs as a centre-back and a midfielder.
1938 World Cup final formation
At his very best, I think, he was a true complete №9 - dominant in the air and capable of doing a "John Charles" and dropping in defence when they needed to defend the lead.
“He was only a boy, but on the pitch it seemed like he was the man playing against kids in the park,” said Zoltan Blum, who handed Sarosi his bow. “It was just so easy to him. He was big, really strong, quick, never lost a header. He was impossible to bully. Moreover, he played with such confidence – even at that age he played with the confidence of a captain. He would stride out of the defence with the ball, taking on opponents and launching attacks." - this is about his early years in central defence.
“Scoring seven goals in an international is almost impossible, yet alone past the great Planicka,” commented his coach that day, Karoly Dietz. “But ‘Gyurka’ was the greatest goalscorer of his era – just look at his statistics.”
Tellingly, between March 1934 and December 1938, when he was invariably if not exclusively positioned up front, Sarosi struck 37 times in 29 internationals – a staggering ratio for a man who also made European XIs as a centre-back and a midfielder.
The guy in the midfield above szucs.
I already stated that in the OP. There is no way of stopping a peak Platini - no-one in this draft is capable of it. What I can do is to limit his influence and make it harder for him to shine, my smart midfielders and pro-active defenders will help me in it. You can't sit back against Platini - he will punish you. The only way it to close the space, and I think that my players are capable of it. You can't do such thing with Meazza, for example, because Dellas is a reactive one, while Ondrus organized his team to beat Netherland's total football.
It will be a goal feast, the only thing I'm stating here is that I will definitely score more - my attack is better as a unit and more variable.
And having Yashin in the goal helps.
Will take them into consideration @harms
But Burgnich did handle Dzajic in the final, according to the UEFA match report at least.
Their write up for the final seems to imply that Dzajic had a poor game:
"That was game, set and match, because there was nothing coming through from the opposition. Dragan Džajić was a major disappointment; Tarcisio Burgnich, one of the great right-backs, had no problems here."
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/finals/history/memories/newsid=1602295.html
I understand the reasoning for it, but I would have played Vogts and Tardelli if I was crappy.
It doesn't get much better for Platini that sticking him with Tardelli and Tigana, with Scirea in defence to boot. I can certainly understand his reasoning however.
It doesn't get much better for Platini that sticking him with Tardelli and Tigana, with Scirea in defence to boot. I can certainly understand his reasoning however.
I already told you about five times in our thread about that game and my thoughts on it, as I did in this thread too. No? Dzajic was great in the final and didn't turn on in the replay (you do understand that there were two final games in 1968, yes?), because that Jugoslavian team played the same outfield players in 3rd game in a week and they didn't believe that they can win it - and Dzajic was beaten up for 90 minutes by English and for 120 by Italians - it's hard to play after that.
I have went for crappy. everything is set up wonderful.. He has the extra protection he needs.. Harms you say you are going to minimise platinis space he spent a career overcoming that. Figo forcing Brehme to stay back is important too..
Crappy has plenty of quality numbers both ends of the pitch..
Crappy has plenty of quality numbers both ends of the pitch..
Platini in his attacking role had an incredible return of 9 goals in Euro 84. Will we get the same return in this free role? Probably not. On the other hand Sarosi is one of the (others being MvB & Puskas) to have scored more i.e. 10 goals each in the same tournament. Dzajic also offers slightly more attacking threat than Ceulemans. Key question being, what was Koscis scoring record in Euros?
Sorry mate but it's you who I don't think understands there were two finals as you conveniently keep ignoring the one in which Dzajic played poorly! And the one you keep playing down was the real final - in the grand scheme of things the 1-1 is pretty irrelevant. It was when Italy won 2-0 that the trophy was won and they became European Champions. So it wasn't a great time for Dzajic to go missing IMO.
Also you keep referring to him tearing one into Burgnich when in reality Burgnich had him in his pocket for the final. So I don't understand how you can keep saying that.
Even back in the 1930s players went down like they had been shot
He looks every bit a contemporary Barcelona player to me.
Can't agree with you, but it's your choice. Senna is not good enough to handle Meazza, just like nobody in my team personally isn't good enough to stop Platini. One of Sarosi or Dzajic (quite possibly both) will have a field day against Rosetti/Dellas
Platini wasn't overcoming team pressing all his life - he was playing against man-markers in a zona mista system mostly, and he had a knack to run into a free space that his forwards opened for him. I won't open this space, or, at least, try as much as I can to minimize it.
His only players that are better than my counterparts are Platini, Scirea and arguably Tigana - I'm not sure about your "quality numbers" argument.
6 in 12, as I stated earlier.
I can't due to the pre 1966 rule
What Krol version are you using @crappycraperson? 1976? Or 1980?
I have more than enough players to create or score.
Krol and figo as threats out wide. Figo will attack the box on occasions as well.
Ceulemans and platini are both capable of scoring or creating.
Kocsis as the finished on the box. His experience with likes of hidekguti and puskas means he can adapt to platini and celemans positions.
I have more rounded players than harms overall. I really don't see his forwards contributing beyond the final third.
He may talk about tashin but my keeper was rated best of his era as well. Plus I have scirea at the back as by far the best defender on the pitch.
76
On phone so excuse the typos
@harms
Can you please outline van Moer's role a bit more? Meazza played inside-right but always with a right-winger so I'm not sure how he'll operate as the widest right of the forwards especially without an attacking right back.
Can you please outline van Moer's role a bit more? Meazza played inside-right but always with a right-winger so I'm not sure how he'll operate as the widest right of the forwards especially without an attacking right back.
Have you actually seen Dzajic playing? And have you read anything that I provided on Sarosi? It's a joke, really
Meazza is a forward/midfielder mould at his best, and he is contributing only in final third? I have one of the most versatile and hardworking (the last part mostly about Sarosi and Dzajic, not sure if that's the case with Meazza) trio possible.Arent you playing the pure striker version of sarosi or is that not so?Have you actually seen Dzajic playing? And have you read anything that I provided on Sarosi? It's a joke, really
I would like clearity on which versions of forward are you playing like I gave you with krol?
Sure. He is playing his CM/RM role from that Belgium set-up, take a look at my videos if you want to know what I'm talking about. He regularly goes to that right midfield position and provides a wide option/cross/something like that, I believe that he is a very good fit to Meazza here. And Bezsonov is more than capable to go forward if needed, he was a complete fullback, lightening quick and good with a ball at his feet.
Yeah, the one from the 36/38. He is a player that is still capable of playing everywhere (like he showed at Euro's, where he played in his first CEIC as a defender, second as a midfielder and the third one as a striker) and, like Charles, he was known to go back to defence if the situation required his help.
Van moer going wide is the last thing you need since it will open up more space for celemans and platini. Besides does his 80 version has the legs to provide support for meazza on right AND cover against those 2 in midfield battle?
I think you have dodged the question here.
What rile is he playing here? Does he gave the free role up front or will he be required to provide a presence in the box at all times.
I asked the year versions for meazza and dargan as well
To me it feels like you skewed your whole team just to accommodate Ceulemans. Platini has been pushed back. Krol moved up to provide width & Senna moved back to balance for Krol. Don't think he's worth that much.
On the flip side, Voronin will not be able to stop this Platini and that would greatly reduce the impact van Moer has in this game.
And do you rate him there higly? Because he wasn't particularly impressive in their Czechoslovakian game, for example, and he is playing an important role for you here. He didn't contribute to any goals at that tournament either, their goals came mostly from the right side and his side conceded goals both from Ondrus and Dzajic that year. Genuine question, I wasn't looking at him when I watched those games but he didn't impress me - maybe I simply overlooked his good performances?
Not really. It is Ceulemans who adapts to Platini rather than the other way around.
Senna is also not balancing Krol but killing the space for Meazza. Krol is in top 5 left backs of all time and can run the whole wing on his own- defending and attacking.
Dragan is obviously 1968, Meazza is in his prolonged pick from 34 to 38.
He is mostly a №9, who will keep your defence busy, but he is a great player and no great player is really limited with a tactical scheme. He has a certain role in my trio and he knows it and he plays it to perfection.
If we are talking dates, what's your Rosetta's peak?
He was listed as pretty much the best Dutch player in that tournament, making the team of the tournament that certain player on your team could not do
@crappycraperson 's attack works better now. For all my demanding a right forward, I can see Platini not being far off 1984 form here, Ceulemans' new role being crucial to that. I've no idea why he has positioned his midfielders so deep, it looks pretty awful and makes Tigana look out of the game and reduced to defensive duties. My major concern is the defence, it doesn't look good or any better than in the previous game and, given the quality and characteristics of the opposition it actually looks very vulnerable.
@harms, I like it. There's a danger we go overboard here in allowing for oldies, allowing for lesser known players and ending up allowing for far too much... Every one of those is a great player though, with excellent Euro credentials. It's only Khurtsilava I had never heard of/noticed. It gives a certain air to the team as well, disciplined and tirelessly hardworking, much like the USSR used to be, but with token much needed creativity drafted in through Schuster and Meazza, as well as Dzajic's trickery and inventiveness. But the beauty of it is all those three would be good fits in terms of temperament and adhering to the overarching disciplined approach (e.g. drop Ronaldinho in there and he would look all at sea to me). My only minor quibble is why Bessonov doesn't have an arrow, or how/why he doesn't while Brehme does. Ignoring them as individuals, the team needs Bessonov storming up his flank more than they need Brehme to so it's really odd.
On the balance of things, while I find crappy's attacking credentials compelling, I find harms has put together the better rounded team with no chinks in its armour, none whatsoever. If they played ten times there would be wins and draws for both teams, but I would fancy harms to ultimately prevail overall.
It's a bastard of a team to upgrade without decimating the theme though, so you may yet get the "peaked early" treatment from me @Balu
@harms, I like it. There's a danger we go overboard here in allowing for oldies, allowing for lesser known players and ending up allowing for far too much... Every one of those is a great player though, with excellent Euro credentials. It's only Khurtsilava I had never heard of/noticed. It gives a certain air to the team as well, disciplined and tirelessly hardworking, much like the USSR used to be, but with token much needed creativity drafted in through Schuster and Meazza, as well as Dzajic's trickery and inventiveness. But the beauty of it is all those three would be good fits in terms of temperament and adhering to the overarching disciplined approach (e.g. drop Ronaldinho in there and he would look all at sea to me). My only minor quibble is why Bessonov doesn't have an arrow, or how/why he doesn't while Brehme does. Ignoring them as individuals, the team needs Bessonov storming up his flank more than they need Brehme to so it's really odd.
On the balance of things, while I find crappy's attacking credentials compelling, I find harms has put together the better rounded team with no chinks in its armour, none whatsoever. If they played ten times there would be wins and draws for both teams, but I would fancy harms to ultimately prevail overall.
It's a bastard of a team to upgrade without decimating the theme though, so you may yet get the "peaked early" treatment from me
@BaluDon't really get the criticsm of Ceulemans and Platini here. They'er in their perfect roles. Kocsis has always played with goalscoring threats from deep, he's an excellent choice as an allround forward who can connect with a striker or keep centerbacks busy for others to push forward. He did that all his career. Ceulemans loved to drift left or come from deep, he provides great runs off the ball and an additional goalthreat.
It's actually one of the best set-ups for Platini I've seen on here. I also like that you chose this midfield line-up. I don't think you need Tardelli and Tigana. Aren't both offering the same anyway? Platini always played with one of them and a more disciplined holding midfielder. It gives Platini way more freedom to drop deep and carry the ball, which he loved to do.
It's actually one of the best set-ups for Platini I've seen on here. I also like that you chose this midfield line-up. I don't think you need Tardelli and Tigana. Aren't both offering the same anyway? Platini always played with one of them and a more disciplined holding midfielder. It gives Platini way more freedom to drop deep and carry the ball, which he loved to do.
Did you actually watch the games? It wasn't an achievement to be a best player at 1976 side, Neeskens and Van Hanegem were sent off, Cruyff wasn't all that in the first game and didn't participate in the second, where Geels was their best player.He was listed as pretty much the best Dutch player in that tournament, making the team of the tournament that certain player on your team could not do
If you are stating that Krol is one of the 5 best left backs in the world than I'm not sure that you actually did watch them, he isn't his monstrous self, just a quality player there.