The Euro Draft - Round 1 - Šjor Bepo vs The Stain

[Balu]

All players shall be judged only on their performances at the tournaments (From 1927 to 1960 the CEICs, from 1960 to 2012 the Euros). Please take this into account before voting. You can read up on the theme by clicking here.
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Team Šjor Bepo​

Tactics:
The plan is to play possession football, similar to Barcelona 2011 - the famous Tiki Taka. Think we all know how you have to play in that system. You need players very comfortable with the ball, a lot of movement without the ball and pressure when you lose it. The key players in there are the 2 guys in the middle, one behind your two midfield maestros and the guy in front of them in his false nine role which leaves the opponent centerback without players to mark. In fact the centerbacks have double trouble: they have the middle guy attacking from deep as well as two "wingers" who constantly make runs inside.


Defence:
In goal we have the best gk in the draft alongside the great Lev Yashin. Dino Zoff only conceded 2 goals in 720 minutes of football. One per tournament, one when they won in 68' and one in 80' when they finished fourth. In front of the Italian we have proven partnership of two greats, Alessandro Nesta and Jaap Stam who played together both in Lazio and Milan colors. Great partnership where we have one aggressive winner of the ball in Stam and one who reads the game perfectly in Nesta.

Crucially for a high line we intend to play Nesta had impeccable positioning and game reading skills so he won't be caught out of position; even if he was, he was quick with tenacious, pinpoint tackling. Further, he had excellent passing and vision for a defender which will help out enormously in maintaining possession; it won't just be the simple pass short pass to Busquets which will make effective pressing for the opposition very difficult.
Not only was Stam was comfortable on the ball and good reader of the game he was a beast on an athlete: if a player got in behind would rapidly close down the space.
On the right side is Gary Neville who will play more defensive minded fullback. He will offer width but he is under strict instructions to play short simple passes and not to dribble. On the other side is Hans Peter Briegel in his familiar role of attacking wing-back. He will bomb forward on every opportunity, similar to Dani Alves of Barcelona. Great dribbling ability and engine which is no surprise as he was involved with athletics until the age of 17 when he focused only on his football career. Further he had a great left foot and will present a big goal threat on set-pieces. Finally, unlike some modern attacking full-backs, lhe could actually defend very well.

Overall the defense is exceptionally solid and fits perfectly for the system.


Midfield:
My pride and glory. I said earlier that the two most important positions are the one behind and in front of two midfielders. Here we come to the first one, the man playing behind my two midfielders and we have the best possible player there: Sergio Busquets. The perfect fit for the philosophy and the guy who makes this philosophy so good. If you have the ball your opponent can't score and Busquets is the guy who will ensure your team dominates the possession. He is always available for the pass, keeps it simple and ensures you don't lose the ball. If you give him space they will slowly build the attack and opposition will do a lot of running until the point they collapse + he is capable of this:

Spoiler: Euro Final 2012

But this is a rare moment as Busquets is so smart he knows what is his role and will leave this passes to others most of the time.
On the other hand if you try to pressure him you will look foolish as his ability under pressure is unbelievable - he has brains and technique to match it: unless you specifically watch him it will go unnoticed. I would say only Messi had a better technique then him at this time. His ability in tight spaces is impeccable, one touch, two touch he is amazing at it. When in possession of the ball, if needed the centerbacks will spread and he will drop in between them so its easier to maintain the possession.

The main playmaker of the team is Luis Suarez, not the Uruguayan Hannibal Lecter but one of the greatest players Spain ever had. El Arquitecto, the first spain player to win the famous Ballon D'Or. In 64' when his Spain won the Euro he finished second in Ballon D'Or race behind our very own Dennis Law. Not sure but think this Euro in 64' was the first major trophy Spain has won and it was Suarez who lead the young team to glory as he was the oldest player in the squad at the age of 29! Alfredo Di Stéfano recently retired, Francisco Gento and Luis del Sol were left out by the coach after a few arguments so it was on Suarez shoulders to lead the spain to their first European glory.

Spoiler: Inter Hall of Fame

Spoiler: Inter top 10 goals

Next to our main playmaker is Alain Giresse. An intelligent playmaker who possessed fine agility and acceleration due to his short frame. He will have no problems in this tactic as his passing was tremendous, short/long, left/right foot, outside/inside of the foot, a joy to watch. He also played in similar system we play here where he had that role of an "passive" playmaker in the team where Platini was the main guy so him supporting Suarez wouldn't be a problem; also he's capable of drifting wide which will be helpful as Neville concentrates on defending. The famous " Magic Square" will replaced by the square of Busquets, Suarez, Giresse and Hidegkuti.


Attack:
On the left "wing" we have Lukas Podolski who will play the inside left role. Will be under strict instructions not to involve himself in the general play. His job is to make constant runs inside and behind defence - he is in the team only because of his end product. While we at that topic lets just say he scored 3 goals at Euro 08'(golden boot Villa had 4) and had 2 assists. His lack of involvement won't be an issue as Briegel will provide outlet on the left and give the team proper balance.

We will have similar but not the same role on the right. Valentin Ivanov is much better on the ball then Poldi so he won't be limited in his play but for the majority of the time we want him to do the same runs as we want from Podolski. Ivanov played this position at Euro 60`(his Soviets won it) where he was a top goalscorer and found his place in team of the tournament. Four years later he was also in the team of the tournament but this time in different role, he played as a deep-lying striker because of his technical ability which is handy for our tiki taka style of play.

For the end I left the last piece of the puzzle: Nandor Hidegkuti as our false nine. Hungary’s much-revered team of the early fifties only became the Magical, Magnificent and Mighty Magyars when Hidegkuti established himself in the team as a result of his performances in the 1952 Olympics.
Hidegkuti took a position most akin to a attacking midfielder in the modern game. It was a role employed by Hungary before, but Hidegkuti became the last piece to fit into the team’s exceptional puzzle. In a side littered with footballing giants such as Ferenc Puskas, Sandor Kocsis, and Jozsef Bozsik, it was Hidegkuti who allowed them to flourish. His movement meant that defences struggled to pick him up leavinging huge gaps for Puskas or Kocsis to exploit. He was an intelligent player and used the freedom to devastating effect. When England played Hungary in 1953, it was Hidegkuti’s performance that left the established English tactics so bereft. Defender Harry Johnstone admitted he simply didn’t know how to mark him – he’d no idea whether to get tight and leave others in space, or gamble and leave Hidegkuti to roam where ever he wanted. Hidegkuti plundered a hat-trick and been a revelation. He’d proved that power and pace were redundant in comparison to near perfect technique married with intelligence.
Former England and Leeds United manager, Don Revie paid tribute to the influence of Hidegkuti in his autobiography: "In the summer of 1954 England and Scotland were knocked out of the World Cup series in Switzerland. That competition was won by Germany, but dominated by Hungary, who played with a deep-lying centre forward, Nandor Hidegkuti. Alongside him; Sandor Koscis and Ferenc Puskas, two of the greatest inside-forwards in the world. But whatever people claim of Koscis and Puskas, it was the man Hidegkuti who tore the England defence to shreds at Wembley in November 1953. It was Hidegkuti, again playing his hide-and-seek centre-forward game, who shattered England in the return match in Budapest in May 1954, when we were thrashed 7-1."

vs
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[Balu]

Team The Stain​

I have tried to put together a team of known stars and unsung heroes. All selections have been based entirely on their performances at the EURO's. I have 3 players that have won Player of the tournament and one that has finished 3rd. My team have 9 EURO wins between them & 9 Team of the tournament selections between them. I feel tactically my team is well balanced, i'll keep it short an simple as i've written a lot about the players:

Lining up in a 4-2-3-1. Our defense is made up of athletes that will run all day. Not only are they fit, they are also tactically aware. Puyol and Förster will make sure the defense keeps it's line. Förster will do the man marking, completely taking the oppositions main man out of the game. Pinto and Zambrotta will cover so much ground that the opposition will be exhausted after the game. Zagorakis will mostly stay infront of the defence but at times, as he did for Greece, he'll move up along the right side to help carve out chances. Wimmer will cover for Zambrotta but also do all the running and ballwinning for Zidane. This will leave Zidane with nothing else to do but what he did best, attack.

Amancio and Czibor are lethal on the flanks, both excellent crossers but they can also cut inside and take shots. Especially Czibor had a power shot on him. Shearer will lurk around, dragging defenders out of position, mostly inside the box. With the crossing ability in this team (Czi, Ama, Zam, Jao, Zag) He will have a lot of supply aerially. Zidane will surely set him up at times too.. Defensively, we'll act in the same manner as the current Atletico side, more of a 4-4-1-1. When counterattacking opportunities arise we'll utilize the wings. Mainly we'll try to keep calm and let Zidane keep possession for us.

Gianpiero Combi:

One of the best keepers of the 1930's. Known for his agility which earned him the nickname "rubberman". Successful at the EURO's (CEIC/Dr. Gero Cup), appearing regularly in 2 of them which Italy won (27'-30' & 33'-35'). In the final match on 11 May 1930 Italy had to beat Hungary to finish as champions. Combi kept a clean sheet in the match, and Italy's prolific forward line secured a comfortable 5-0 victory. Regarded as the best keeper in the world 1931 & 1933.

Fun irrelevant facts to this draft:

First keeper to lift the World Cup trophy as a keeper. Kept a clean sheet in the Serie for 934 minutes, still a record to this day. Remarkable if you consider that the goal scoring ratio was higher back then, than it is today.

If interested to learn more; here's an article about him:
http://www.world-football-legends.co.uk/index.php/ita/24-combi-gianpiero, and some footage from the 1934 WC final:

Spoiler

João Domingos da Silva Pinto:

An extreme athlete, known for his superb stamina, mentality and team work. Sir Bobby
Robson once remarked: "He has two hearts & 4 legs, It's extremely difficult to find a player like him". His performances at the EURO 84' earned him a place in that editions team of the tournament. Capped six times prior to the tournament, he was as adventurous going forward as resilient in defence. Portugal only conceded one goal in the group, only to go out in the semi's to Platini's France in a 3-2 extra time defeat.

Fun fact: The one club man captained his Porto side that won the European Cup in 1987.

Carles Puyol:

This monster needs no introduction. Appeared in 2 EURO's and the one where he really shone was in 2008. He was a rock and organized Spain's defense. In the 5 games he played, his team only conceded 2 goals. His excellent performances earned him a place in the team of the tournament.

Karlheinz Förster:

Probably Germany's best defender during the 1980's. An outstanding man-marker who has
marked Platini, Hugo Sanchez and many other top players out of games. Raees suggested
Kohler as the best man marker, i'll counter with Förster . As far as EURO performances goes, Förster is right up there with Beckenbauer and Blanc as the top central defense performers. His performances during the winning campaign in 80' and later in 84' earned him 2 team of the tournament selections.

Gianluca Zambrotta:

Attacking fullback which defensive attributes are often overlooked. He had very good marking ability, tackling, strength, tenacity and stamina. Running up and down either wing all day long. Played 2 EURO's; 2004 & 2008. Although Italy went to the semi's in 2008, his best performances came in 2004 where Italy were eliminated already at the group stage. Considered the best left back at the tournament which earned him a starting spot in the team of the tournament. Zambrotta is considered the best fullback in the world 2004 & 2006.

Theodoros Zagorakis:

The most underwhelming player in the draft, but one of the stars of it. This is his time to be included in a draft. The captain with the ridiculous mullet carried Greece on his shoulders in
the EURO 04', steering them to glory as Greece shockingly surprising won the tournament. He showed excellent reading of the game and excelled both in keeping and gathering possesion of the ball. He was selected player of the tournament.

Not convinced?

Here is a 2 min summary of his performance:

Spoiler

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2004/history-maker/
http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/4.../euro-2004-legends-theodoros-zagorakis-greece

Herbert Wimmer:

The german side of 72' is one of the best international sides the world has ever seen.
Wimmer was one of the star performers of the EURO-winning side and selected for team of the tournament. An energetic player who never ran out of steam, Wimmer did all the running and ballwinning that played a major role in Netzer's brilliant tournament. Stole some of Netzer's thunder when he scored in the final. Part of the very exclusive few that have featured in 2 EURO finals.

 

[Balu]

Amaro Amancio:

Real Madrid legend Amancio Amaro is the greatest Spanish attacker during the late 1960s and considered as the best Spanish right winger ever. He was noted for his great scoring and considerably skillful dribbling. He scored a goal in the semi of the EURO 64 vs Hungary and played a major role in the final against the Soviet Union as the Spanish team won the EURO 64'. He was involved in all Spain's goals at the tournament. He was part of team of the tournament. He scored 4 goals in the 7 qualification games he played. He scored 11 goals in 42 games for his country, for Real, he was far more prolific. He finished 3rd in the Balon d'Or 1964. Only Figo is the better right winger in this draft (Amancio was more of a winger/attacker hybrid or an inside forward if you will)

I get mixed signals regarding who was the player of the tournament. Some say Amancio, some say Suarez. Surely being directly involved in all goals of the tournament must count for soomething?

Here he is with a man of the match performance vs Hungary in the semi. 1 assist, 1 goal.

Spoiler

Footage from the final in which he had a hand in the first goal with a cross from the right. Spain's second goal also came from a cross from the right, not sure if it's Amancio's cross though.

Spoiler

Zinedine Zidane:

The elegant maestro. One of the absolute best players, but more importantly, performers in this draft. The 98' Balon d'Or winner finished 2nd in the Balon d'Or 00', the year Zidane was voted player of the tournament for his performances at the EURO in which France won. There are 9 players that have won 9 EURO games, Zidane is one of them. He scored 5 goals in 14 EURO matches. Here are most of them:

vs Spain, 2004:

Spoiler

vs England, 2004:

Spoiler

If you haave 8 mins, watch his highlights from the semi vs Portugal; he was sublime (including "that moment"):

Spoiler

Him and Shearer have scored the most penalties at the EURO's excluding exra time (2) so if we get a penalty, we probably won't miss it. Including extra time; Zidane has scored more than anyone (4). He has also scored in penalty shootouts.

Zoltan Czibor:

He was the greatest left-winger in the World in the mid-1950s. Rated as Hungary’s best winger ever, the Barcelona legend was notable for having a powerful shot and world class finishing which resulted in him having a 1 goal per game ratio in 1955 and 1956. Known for his crossing and unpredictability when dribbling. He was also known for his ability to score goals in major finals Together with Puskás, Kocsis, Bozsik and Hidegkuti, he formed the nucleus of the Golden Team that went unbeaten in 32 consecutive games. He scored 17 goals in 43 games for Hungary. In this draft, only Dzajic and Nedved are better left wingers. Won the CEIC (EURO) 1948-1953.

Spoiler

From a Barcelona documentary about Czibor and Kocsis (stories from their sons, who both
were named after their fathers, and some Barca know-it-alls):

Czibors son, Zoltan Czibor, on modern tactics:

"The basis for the current Barca side is not dutch football, it comes from there as well.. Modern football is based on the hungarian side from the 1950's, and it was brought here by the hungarians who played for Barca. Kubala, Kocsis and Czibor".

The hungarians were the first team to deploy left-footed wingers/inside forwards on the
right, and vice versa. Like right-footed Czibor on the left.

Him and Kocsis didn't like preseason because of the heat, so they would usually
not be at their best at the start of the season.

In preseason friendlies with Barcelona, Czibor (described as a extrovert and a bit
excentric character) would wait for a injurybreak and whilst players
would recieve treatment, he would lay down on the pitch and fall asleep.

Czibor was very outgoing in contrast to the more introvert Kocsis. He owned a bar where
his fellow Barca team mates would start the night out. When Kocsis would join them though, you couldn't tell who was the worst (drunk/rowdy/loud).

Czibors son:

"Him, Kubala and other Barca players would get drunk and talk shit about Di Stefano and Gento, saying that they were always running offside and there weren't any linesmen that would raise their flags for them. Spoken behind closed doors of course, they would have
been thrown in jail had their thoughts reached the public".

Alan Shearer:

Only Platini has scored more goals than Shearer at the EURO's. He managed 7 goals in 9 matches. 5 of them came in 96' when England lost to Germany in the final. This made him top scorer of the tournament and he was selected for the team of the tournament. He was voted 3rd best player in 96' - Also finished 3rd in the Balon d'Or.

Here's a crap 30 sec video of his goals from 96':

Spoiler

Sick of the word performances yet? Thanks for reading. Performances.


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Good luck @Šjor Bepo @Physiocrat @The Stain

 

[Balu]

@Rado_N @Damien , could one of you please add the poll to the thread? Thanks a lot.

Question:
Judged on the Euro performances, who will win the match?

- Team Šjor Bepo
- Team The Stain
- Draw

Poll for 24hrs. Public Poll. View results without voting. Can change votes.

 

[Rado_N]

@Rado_N @Damien , could one of you please add the poll to the thread? Thanks a lot.

Question:
Judged on the Euro performances, who will win the match?

- Team Šjor Bepo
- Team The Stain
- Draw

Poll for 24hrs. Public Poll. View results without voting. Can change votes.

Done.

 

[The Stain]

Good luck! @Šjor Bepo

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Will study this properly later but it mustn't have clicked with me during the drafting quite how good Sjor's team was. My first impression is that his players are a great fit for his system. Even Podolski is pretty credible in his Pedro-type role.

 

[harms]

@Šjor Bepo don't say that I didn't warn you in the main thread, Ivanov didn't play there. It was Metreveli in 1960 and Chislenko in 1964

 

[harms]

@The Stain it was Suarez who crossed the ball for Spain's first goal and Pereda for the second, Amancio didn't play the part in neither. He had a great run at some point of the game though. Ffs, guys, do your homework

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Good luck! @Šjor Bepo

and to you my newbie friend

@Šjor Bepo don't say that I didn't warn you in the main thread, Ivanov didn't play there. It was Metreveli in 1960 and Chislenko in 1964

i know its a shit source but wiki says he played, you said he played inside right? He plays the modern inside right role for me. Again me with the wiki but they say he played as a winger/forward so dont think this should be a major issue.....

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@The Stain whats the gameplan? Will you try to battle with me for possession or you will sit deep and wait for the counter?

 

[The Stain]

@The Stain it was Suarez who crossed the ball for Spain's first goal and Pereda for the second, Amancio didn't play the part in neither. He had a great run at some point of the game though. Ffs, guys, do your homework

I don't know spanish but he says Amancio when he crosses the ball in the video right? The second one i clearly wrote that i wasn't sure if it was him that crossed the ball. Chill.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

One of the most important players in my team is not so close well known to most of us so here is a little intorduction, only Euro form as well!

Nandor Hidegkuti at international cup:
Italy 0:3 Hungary(played 45, scored goal)

In May 1953, when Hungary beat Italy 3-0 in Rome, those of us lucky enough to be there could appreciate Hidegkuti's value; his balance, skill, flair and intelligence. "I played Hidegkuti," remembered Sebes, "even though he was only half fit, because I needed his fine technique and tactical guile to penetrate the world's toughest defence." Hidegkuti played, and scored, in the first half, after which Palotai took his place.

Switzerland 2:4 Hungary(subbed Palotas in 31' minute at 2:0 for Switzerland, scored one, assists unknown)

Austria 2:2 Hungary(assist and goal)

Hungary 2:4 Czechoslovakia(assist and "assist" for penalty)

Switzerland 4:5 Hungary(cant find anything)

Yugoslavia 1:3 Hungary(2 assists)

 

[harms]

I don't know spanish but he says Amancio when he crosses the ball in the video right? The second one i clearly wrote that i wasn't sure if it was him that crossed the ball. Chill.

He says it, but don't trust him unless you know what he is saying exactly. Suarez is easily recognizable, not only he has №10 on his back (Amancio is №7), but he also has white patch on his hand. I just don't like it when anyone makes some loud statements in bold (like "being directly involved in all goals of the tournament must count") which are not obviously not true (at least you can see that the two different players crosses the ball in the video, so one of them should not be Amancio). Either prove it, or don't say it.

I'm relaxed, just a little disappointed, both Ivanov and Amancio are great players who deserved a thorough research on them, imo.

 

[The Stain]

@The Stain whats the gameplan? Will you try to battle with me for possession or you will sit deep and wait for the counter?

Battle for possession? I can give you some. We'll sit back in our half. Press in your half. I have possibly the best retainer of the ball ever in Zidane so i expect a fair amount of possession too. I honestly think my wingers would have a good time against your fullbacks. Unsure about the defensive work my wingers would do, probably more suited to pressing so i'd leave them to do that. My central midfielders and central defenders are all excellent at retrieving the ball. Can't see you having much room through there. Both of my fullbacks would instinctively want to press so i need my central mids to be more restrictive in their pressing.

I'll read up more on your team tomorrow but right off, i question how well Neville performed at the EURO's. Stam also. Yes, Holland went to the semi in both tournaments. 2004 they narrowly scraped thrught the group and almost went out against Sweden on penalties before Portugal beat them in the semis. 2000 was a good one collectively but has he gotten any recognition for his performances? Also, Zidane didn't play the game against them in the group.

Ivanov out of position against a peak Zambrotta? I should be ok. Joao Pinto aka "the captain" aka "2 hearts, 4 legs" will run Podolski in to the ground.

 

[The Stain]

He says it, but don't trust him unless you know what he is saying exactly. Suarez is easily recognizable, not only he has №10 on his back (Amancio is №7), but he also has white patch on his hand. I just don't like it when anyone makes some loud statements in bold (like "being directly involved in all goals of the tournament must count") which are not obviously not true (at least you can see that the two different players crosses the ball in the video, so one of them should not be Amancio). Either prove it, or don't say it.

I'm relaxed, just a little disappointed, both Ivanov and Amancio are great players who deserved a thorough research on them, imo.

Actually, fair enough. You can tell it's Suarez with both crosses. I've been writing a fair amount tonight so i obviously rushed that. Feel free to go hunt for errors in the rest of the text, shouldn't be any more. If you want to count this against me, so be it. I apologize for my mistake.

 

[harms]

i know its a shit source but wiki says he played, you said he played inside right? He plays the modern inside right role for me. Again me with the wiki but they say he played as a winger/forward so dont think this should be a major issue.....

Modern inside (like Poldi, for example) and an inside in W-M are a very different roles. They don't start on the wing and neither they actually play there at any point of the game, they are central attacking midfielder/supporting striker hybrid. His actual role is painfully similar to Giresse's for me here.

I'm sorry for this, it's just I believe that when you try to replicate Barca's system, you need to be very, very careful with the balance - and providing width was very important to Pep. I'm not sure that Briegel alone is up to the task and maybe there can be too much cooks in the team. Especially when your fullbacks will be busy all game, trying not to lose sight of Czibor/Amancio.

I'm not attacking you, but giving you the chance to explain your tactics more thorough maybe, why do you think that those particular players will work good together? I have no doubt about Suarez/Busquets, but Hidegkuti/Ivanov/Giresse seems like overkill to me.

 

[The Stain]

Also, playing a high line against Czibor/Amancio is suicidal.

 

[harms]

If you want to count this against me, so be it. I apologize for my mistake.

Of course not, mate, mistakes happen. I once provided a false footage of Ortiz (the author of that video was a jerk though )

He had a wonderful tournament and is definitely one of the top choices for the right wing position in this draft, no need to overhype him

The main point for me is not the outcome, but more thorough knowledge on the players, so I'm doing what I can to provide some useful information. (And it wasn't Suarez for the second goal, it was Pereda, as I said earlier). And I'm a dull begger.

 

[The Stain]

@harms It's very possible it's him with the backheel wall pass to Suarez on the first goal. If so, that's directly involved in the goal. For the second one, he stands in the box but isn't involved in the goal. 3/4 goals in the main tournament he was involved in.

 

[harms]

@harms It's very possible it's him with the backheel wall pass to Suarez on the first goal. If so, that's directly involved in the goal. For the second one, he stands in the box but isn't involved in the goal. 3/4 goals in the main tournament he was involved in.

Yeah, it's probably him. Good point.

edit: it was him, just rewatched the moment in the game. He was coming back from USSR's goal at the time.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Also interested in seeing how Bepo thought a little more in depth. I am having troubles seeing it being much of a replica of Barcelona at all. Ivanov being more of an attacking central midfielder/second striker. With Hidegkuti also being a playmaker acting in the same area it will need some explanation.

Hidegkuti was surely capable of handling such a messy and crowded formation, but the rest of the players?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Modern inside (like Poldi, for example) and an inside in W-M are a very different roles. They don't start on the wing and neither they actually play there at any point of the game, they are central attacking midfielder/supporting striker hybrid. His actual role is painfully similar to Giresse's for me here.

I'm sorry for this, it's just I believe that when you try to replicate Barca's system, you need to be very, very careful with the balance - and providing width was very important to Pep. I'm not sure that Briegel alone is up to the task and maybe there can be too much cooks in the team. Especially when your fullbacks will be busy all game, trying not to lose sight of Czibor/Amancio.

I'm not attacking you, but giving you the chance to explain your tactics more thorough maybe, why do you think that those particular players will work good together? I have no doubt about Suarez/Busquets, but Hidegkuti/Ivanov/Giresse seems like overkill to me.

They are obviously different roles as football evolved a lot from time of W-M formation to the modern ones but as far i know and i admit i dont know much of an actual role of inside forward i W-M but they were in the team for movement and goal threat. They had similar movement but from different positions. Similar story what happened with playmaker role and the role of wide playmaker like Silva/Iniesta etc. If you can play one role you probably can play the other one to. I can agree that im maybe not using Ivanov to his full potential but i think he could play there and if he is smart and good like they say he was he would not have problems with adopting and focus his game more on the final third and not on the playmaking side.....

As for width, think i have at least the same amount of width as Barca said i wanted to replicate if not more. Briegel will play the same way Dani Alves played and in the other side we have Abidal and G.Neville, think im sorted here. If you look the "wingers" there you have Villa and Pedro both in inside forwards role just like mine two and Iniesta/Giresse floating around on the side of a defensive fullback.

Hidegkuti is "playmaker" for the final third of the pitch and Giresse will play his "passive" playmaker role where he supports both the guy who controls the game and the guy who makes things happen in the final third.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Liking the look of both teams here

-Hideguti in a false 9 role with two goalscoring wide forwards looks nice, esp with a jizz worthy midfield trio supporting them and with 2 FBs who provide decent overlaps (esp Briegel). More talented wing-backs could have been better though.

-In saying that, that midfield unit does look a bit lightweight and it is up against a pretty physical one, with plenty of thrust, in Zidane, Wimmer and Zagorakis.

-The Stain probably has the best flanks in the draft right now. Czibor, Amancio and Zambrotta on the flanks with Shearer up top is a great route to goal. Although tbf to Sjor Bepo he does have a top notch defensive pairing and two defensively solid FBs.

-Guess it will mainly hinge on whether Zidane or Suarez have the better game here. Most of the other areas are well matched imo.

Modern inside (like Poldi, for example) and an inside in W-M are a very different roles. They don't start on the wing and neither they actually play there at any point of the game, they are central attacking midfielder/supporting striker hybrid. His actual role is painfully similar to Giresse's for me here.

Hmm wiki has him as an outside right for the 1960 final

Although it does seem like his main role was more of a SS or a creative inside right, so to say.

Ivanov himself was billed as a centre-forward but liked to come from deep, in the role of an inside forward. He helped Torpedo to the Soviet league and cup double in 1960 and to another league title in 1965.

"He was more of what you now call a playmaker than a pure centre-forward," according to his long-time teammate in the Soviet side, Viktor Ponedelnik, who scored that winning goal against Yugoslavia in the 1960European Championship final. "You always had to be alert on the pitch because he always had some tricks up his sleeve."

From what little I watched of him in the WC, he did possess the speed, trickery and the incisive runs to excel in a slightly wide-ish inside forward role. If Sjor Bepo needed a winger, like say Giggs, to provide width then it might have been a problem but his set-up requires a incisive inside forward of sorts so I don't think it will be a problem here (unless I'm totally off the mark about Ivanov). It's the extent of his playmaking tendencies which could prove problematic with Giresse and Suarez on the same pitch. Even then he did seem like a direct player who was creative rather than a slow-ish ball hogging playmaker of sorts. Perhaps he might be able to combine well with his teammates without necessarily being a hindrance?

 

[The Stain]

Also interested in seeing how Bepo thought a little more in depth. I am having troubles seeing it being much of a replica of Barcelona at all. Ivanov being more of an attacking central midfielder/second striker. With Hidegkuti also being a playmaker acting in the same area it will need some explanation.

Hidegkuti was surely capable of handling such a messy and crowded formation, but the rest of the players?

He wants Podolski running in behind defence. My defence will drop back when he has possession in our half. Hidegkuti will drop. Ivanov out of position, really playing the same area as Hideg. Giresse also central. I can see Suarez trying to combine down either flank but.. It'll be very congested in the middle, leaving much room for my team to counter in down the flanks. With his high line; Czibor/Amancio/mainly Zambrotta will have a lot of room. Zidane running to either side as well and you have a recipe for disaster for his team. Shearer the poacher will knock in anything dropping in to his airspace.

Edit: spelling.

 

[harms]

@Joga Bonito wiki lies, plain and simple.

He can, but I do think that he lacks width-providers. If Podolski is Villa-esque, Ivanov is nothing like Pedro, who played there ahead of a more talented players because he was right tactically. Ivanov can play there, in a modern widish playmaker, probably, even if he won't be at his best, but Sjor needs a completely different player there, that was my point. And Breigel is the only genuine width-providing player, but he needs to look after Amancio, who is one of the best players on the pitch, it's an incredibly different task already.

I'll stop with Ivanov discussion, I feel like I'm being little negative here. It was more of a tactical question anyway

 

[The Stain]

-Guess it will mainly hinge on whether Zidane or Suarez have the better game here.

Did you watch the video of Zidane vs Portugal, 2000? Must be one of his best games ever.

Edit: Also, i genuinley believe my team has better overall performances at the EURO's as well as being more tactically thought out.

 

[Gio]

Two excellent teams. Particularly impressed by Sjor Bepo's spine and the Euros calibre of The Stain's team. Interesting midfield that Sjor Bepo has cultivated. It looks fantastic in possession but will it have enough defensive robustness to deal with Zidane in his scintillating 2000 form?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Battle for possession? I can give you some. We'll sit back in our half. Press in your half. I have possibly the best retainer of the ball ever in Zidane so i expect a fair amount of possession too. I honestly think my wingers would have a good time against your fullbacks. Unsure about the defensive work my wingers would do, probably more suited to pressing so i'd leave them to do that. My central midfielders and central defenders are all excellent at retrieving the ball. Can't see you having much room through there. Both of my fullbacks would instinctively want to press so i need my central mids to be more restrictive in their pressing.

I'll read up more on your team tomorrow but right off, i question how well Neville performed at the EURO's. Stam also. Yes, Holland went to the semi in both tournaments. 2004 they narrowly scraped thrught the group and almost went out against Sweden on penalties before Portugal beat them in the semis. 2000 was a good one collectively but has he gotten any recognition for his performances? Also, Zidane didn't play the game against them in the group.

Ivanov out of position against a peak Zambrotta? I should be ok. Joao Pinto aka "the captain" aka "2 hearts, 4 legs" will run Podolski in to the ground.

With the midfield of Zagorakis and Wimmer against my midfield i honestly cant see your team having much of a possession...with that in mind your wingers could be as much as problem as they will be a threat on the other side.

Gary Neville played until the SF in 96' and only conceded 2 goals in 4 matches with one going into the extra time.

As for Stam, if you mean was he in the team of the tournament? No he was not but when i see the players being there even when your teams cant pass the group stage then i dont think this is necessarily a bad thing(your Zambrotta and i think i saw Angloma also was in the same situation). He played only 2 games at that tournament with a proper partner and they went 210 minutes without conceding a goal. In other games he played with fecking Wilfried Bouma who isnt even a centerback and most of the goals they conceded was from long range shoots and set pieces.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Joga Bonito wiki lies, plain and simple.

He can, but I do think that he lacks width-providers. If Podolski is Villa-esque, Ivanov is nothing like Pedro, who played there ahead of a more talented players because he was right tactically. Ivanov can play there, in a modern widish playmaker, probably, even if he won't be at his best, but Sjor needs a completely different player there, that was my point. And Breigel is the only genuine width-providing player, but he needs to look after Amancio, who is one of the best players on the pitch, it's an incredibly different task already.

I'll stop with Ivanov discussion, I feel like I'm being little negative here. It was more of a tactical question anyway

ffs fecked my original post so now i need to write again
you dont need to stop
Ok, wiki lied about his position in the final but wiki also says he was a winger/striker so if they dont lie again he played before on the wing and played the insde forward role before. His scoring record is great, 124 in 286 for his club and 26 in 60 for the national team. He obviously posses the goal thread i need and knows how to play the role i want him to play. All the right qualities i need for that position are there.
I already answered you about the width so will reply on Briegel - Amancio. Both his wingers played for the teams that had the ball majority of time and here that wont be the case so Briegel bombing down the left should be bigger concern for Stain then Amancio should be it to me.

One other thing, dont think Shearer would be to happy playing against the high line so i would be comfortable leaving Nesta with him when Stains team on the break and allow Stam to help the troubled fullback.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

-Guess it will mainly hinge on whether Zidane or Suarez have the better game here. Most of the other areas are well matched imo.

if it comes to this i think i have a better chance of winning. not because Suarez is better then Zidane, they are both fantastic but because i think Suarez would have the bigger chance to shine in my system then Zizou would in Team Stain.

 

[The Stain]

With the midfield of Zagorakis and Wimmer against my midfield i honestly cant see your team having much of a possession...with that in mind your wingers could be as much as problem as they will be a threat on the other side.

Gary Neville played until the SF in 96' and only conceded 2 goals in 4 matches with one going into the extra time.

As for Stam, if you mean was he in the team of the tournament? No he was not but when i see the players being there even when your teams cant pass the group stage then i dont think this is necessarily a bad thing(your Zambrotta and i think i saw Angloma also was in the same situation). He played only 2 games at that tournament with a proper partner and they went 210 minutes without conceding a goal. In other games he played with fecking Wilfried Bouma who isnt even a centerback and most of the goals they conceded was from long range shoots and set pieces.

I don't need any possession in my half. It will be so congested in the centre of the park and my central 4 are all excellent ball retainers. As soon as we get the ball out wide they'll either give it to Zidane, wingers/fullbacks challenge your fullbacks or we'll see a cross towards Shearer and co (Wimmer was a defensive-minded boxboxer, scored with his head in the 72' final for example). I have a lot of pace down both wings and your high pressing is bound to leave room in which to exploit.

Fair enough about Stam. Him and Nesta seems a very good pair. But again, most of our attacks will come down the wings and i feel i have you beat there. I'll repeat again, the middle of the pitch will be so congested i question how much would be created in that space. Zambrotta was regarded the best fullback in the world that year so that argument falls flat.

In response to the linked text above (which i can''t reply to here apparently). Bit of a lazy explanation to be fair. Also, it's not X vs Y, players move around. Shearer would drag your central defenders out of position in which my splendid front 3 would surely exploit. Zidane doesn't need space. Amancio is a goal threat (not sure who to compare with.. goalscoring inside forward.. just look at his record for Real: 1 goal every 3 games 155 in 471). Czibor is a little trickster who also could score, Ribery could possibly be an apt comparison (48 in 118 for Barca, Ferencvaros and Espanyol according to unreliable wiki). If we take Czibors record as some sort of indication of how big of a threat he was; a goal every other game is fairly decent. Yes, it's not exact science but it's an indication. About one in three for Hungary is good if you take his team mates in to consideration.

You're massively underestimating my wingers, but i knew that would be the case, and not only by you. Hopefully enough people will read my write up.

 

[The Stain]

if it comes to this i think i have a better chance of winning. not because Suarez is better then Zidane, they are both fantastic but because i think Suarez would have the bigger chance to shine in my system then Zizou would in Team Stain.

My team is built around Zidane. The 2 defensive mids will give him the freedom to express himself he craves. Two technical geniuses next to him and he'll have a fun time. Shearer is the second most lethal forward (EURO performances) in the draft. 7 in 9 is brilliant. So many ways towards goal in my team. Ok, that's me done debating for tonight. It's been fun, @Šjor Bepo . GL!!!

 

[harms]

Ok, wiki lied about his position in the final but wiki also says he was a winger/striker so if they dont lie again he played before on the wing and played the insde forward role before. His scoring record is great, 124 in 286 for his club and 26 in 60 for the national team. He obviously posses the goal thread i need and knows how to play the role i want him to play. All the right qualities i need for that position are there.

His position was mainly inside-right, but he also played as a centre forward in Torpedo. The winger from wiki description comes mainly from all this modern/old inside-forward misunderstanding.

Spoiler: Part of his interview, google-translated, I'm going to sleep now, if you won't understand something, I can translate manually it in the morning

- You came to the football during the rule of "double-ve" Number Eight on your shirt matched the role of inside right. Explain briefly the youth, what were your functions on the field?

- Inside - usually located just behind, between outside and central striker. They do a lot of work to create, designed the game and actively participated in the completion of the attacks. But many probably forgot that even a few years before the Swedish World Cup where Brazilians showed the world system 4 + 2 + 4, some teams from Moscow, including the "Torpedo", quite successfully mastered this system. After coming of Streltsov me and Edik often played as a central duo.

- Let's get back to the "double-ve". Right insider confronted left midfielder, a player at number six. But the transition to the counter rival already Inside ought to pursue midfielder. I do not just have to watch your game, giving the impression that the protective functions are performed by you is very reluctant or even completely ignored.

- In the "Torpedo" was. And not because of my excessive laziness or neglect of the dirty work. Do not think for my indiscretion, but its active game I forced the guardian of the running after me. Coaches trusted me and allowed to deal with an opponent on the field. But it was enough to get into the national team, they had to run from gate to gate. Confused takes a lot of legwork, unnerving. Because in the national team I played for twenty percent, and even thirty below its level.

- I heard you, and big trouble on this ground occurred.

- What! Almost from football not excommunicated. In 1958, after the World Cup team of the USSR went for a friendly match in England, it was a nightmare. The game is equal, moments - equally. We beat in the bar, do not fall into the empty net. They that no punch, the goal. In short, they lost 0: 5. After the game, coach accuses me of that in the third or fourth gol I lifted his leg. "Where did it happen?" - I ask. "In the middle of the field." In the middle of the field, do you represent? Why, until the ball from the center to the gate came, still about five foot had to be lifted, and proved guilty Ivanov. After returning from London we thoroughly propesochili at a higher level. It turned out that the team lost because of three people: Ivanov - not lifted his leg, Boris Kuznetsov - created a penalty in a harmless situation, and Simonian. Blame it was the fact that he was the team captain. Thanks to Andrew Starostin - then managed to defend us, and that in fact seriously preparing to expel us from the football.

 

[harms]

Shearer is the second most lethal forward (EURO performances) in the draft. 7 in 9 is brilliant.

How about 10 in 5? not a serious dig

 

[The Stain]

Shearer is the second most lethal forward (EURO performances) in the draft

How about 10 in 5?

Not sure what you're getting at. Platini scored 9 in 5 btw.

 

[harms]

Not sure what you're getting at. Platini scored 9 in 5 btw.

Sarosi. If you excluded CEIC from Euro performances than I'm sorry for my misunderstanding)

 

[The Stain]

Sarosi. If you excluded CEIC from Euro performances than I'm sorry for my misunderstanding)

Cool. Didn't even cross my mind to be fair. Well played, sir

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't need any possession in my half. It will be so congested in the centre of the park and my central 4 are all excellent ball retainers. As soon as we get the ball out wide they'll either give it to Zidane, wingers/fullbacks challenge your fullbacks or we'll see a cross towards Shearer and co (Wimmer was a defensive-minded boxboxer, scored with his head in the 72' final for example). I have a lot of pace down both wings and your high pressing is bound to leave room in which to exploit.

Fair enough about Stam. Him and Nesta seems a very good pair. But again, most of our attacks will come down the wings and i feel i have you beat there. I'll repeat again, the middle of the pitch will be so congested i question how much would be created in that space. Zambrotta was regarded the best fullback in the world that year so that argument falls flat.

yes the middle will be congested but thats why i picked players who ahave great technique and football brain so they have ability to find little pockets of space.
Zambrotta maybe was regarded the best fullback in the world that year but not because of his Euro performances so that argument isnt flat as you think....

Bit of a lazy explanation to be fair. Also, it's not X vs Y, players move around. Shearer would drag your central defenders out of position in which my splendid front 3 would surely exploit. Zidane doesn't need space. Amancio is a goal threat (not sure who to compare with.. goalscoring inside forward.. just look at his record for Real: 1 goal every 3 games 155 in 471). Czibor is a little trickster who also could score, Ribery could possibly be an apt comparison (48 in 118 for Barca, Ferencvaros and Espanyol according to unreliable wiki). If we take Czibors record as some sort of indication of how big of a threat he was; a goal every other game is fairly decent. Yes, it's not exact science but it's an indication. About one in three for Hungary is good if you take his team mates in to consideration.
You're massively underestimating my wingers, but i knew that would be the case, and not only by you. Hopefully enough people will read my write up.

yes players will move around, thats what you need to realize as my tactic is all about the movement and that movement will be to much of your "back 6" as Zidane wont participate much in defending as you want him to run the counter for you, Shearer is a number 9 and your two wingers are not exactly known because of their hardwork. With that in mind tiredness should also be a big factor as Tiki Taka does hurt you in that way, you have to do a lot of running when you dont have possession(and thats majority of time) and as i cant see your team defend as a whole so there is only matter of time when your players will break.

As for your players, im not stupid i know they are great individually but i cant see them work together. I honestly believe my team would have big amount of possession and your best two players(and Amancio) all love the ball and possession football so i cant see them enjoy their game in this game and with the midfield of Zagorakis and Wimmer you really dont have a chance to win that battle. They will have their chance on the counter but this chances are going to be rare and in my opinion i have the bigger chance to get something out of my possession then you can pull something on the break because even when your teams breaks they will have Stam or Nesta marking Shearer in the middle and GOAT Euro gk between the sticks + think i have decent amount of protection, Gary wont be bombing down the right wing and Busquets is always back so i will have 4 players as my insurance when my wizards lose the ball....

 

[diarm]

Two excellent and well thought out teams.
I've gone for Sjor Bepo narrowly just because I think it's a beautifully balanced side with a slightly stronger defence but I'm starting to question myself now on purely Euros performances. May change my mind by the morning!

Fair play all.