The Euro Draft - Round 1 - Šjor Bepo vs The Stain

[Šjor Bepo]

Two excellent and well thought out teams.
I've gone for Sjor Bepo narrowly just because I think it's a beautifully balanced side with a slightly stronger defence but I'm starting to question myself now on purely Euros performances. May change my mind by the morning!

Fair play all.

think all the players performed well/great at Euro's, only questionmark i have is Zambrotta, Stain has his about G.Neville.....

while we are on Euro form, here is footballing masterclass by Sergio Busquets in Euro final 2012 against Italy:

@harms while we at that Euro, look at Spain team with Iniesta, Silva, Fabregas, Xavi and Xabi on the field without any classic attackers in Torres/Villa/Pedro....if they pulled it of i cant see why would i have the problem of to many cooks in the kitchen. You cant have to much football brain on the pitch.

 

[Physiocrat]

@The Stain

Out of Puyol, Forster, Zagorakis and Wimmer are any of them that good on the ball? The way I see it, for you to play well you need swift counter-attacks but I don't see anyone able to do it. Granted your front 4 is lethal but I don't think they'll get the ball quick enough. Bepo's defense will be settled and hard to break down assuming they didn't win it back quickly from pressing.

 

[Balu]

There's a severe lack of votes in this game. Very strange.

Out of Puyol, Forster, Zagorakis and Wimmer are any of them that good on the ball?

Wimmer was fantastic on the ball, excellent dribbler actually. He was long in the shadow of Netzer, because he was incredibly selfless and did all the dirty work for him, but once Netzer left, he pretty much replaced him and became a creative player at Gladbach.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

There's a severe lack of votes in this game. Very strange.

whats your opinion of the teams?

 

[harms]

I really like how @Šjor Bepo stayed true to the theme and I find it hard to vote against him. Yet, @The Stain has tactical advantage and the right personnel to exploit it - the only problem for me is Shearer-Zidane comparability, I just can't imagine them working well together, can't shake the feeling that someone like Tim Sherwood would've been a better fit for Alan.

Come on, guys, it's a brilliant game, and there is a severe lack of discussion and votes here.

 

[Balu]

whats your opinion of the teams?

Just started reading the write-ups

 

[Physiocrat]

There's a severe lack of votes in this game. Very strange.


Wimmer was fantastic on the ball, excellent dribbler actually. He was long in the shadow of Netzer, because he was incredibly selfless and did all the dirty work for him, but once Netzer left, he pretty much replaced him and became a creative player at Gladbach.

Fair enough. I don't know too much about him. My main point was how The Stain thought he could transition. It seems Wimmer will help although I'd prefer a more ball-playing CB too.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I really like how @Šjor Bepo stayed true to the theme and I find it hard to vote against him. Yet, @The Stain has tactical advantage and the right personnel to exploit it - the only problem for me is Shearer-Zidane comparability, I just can't imagine them working well together, can't shake the feeling that someone like Tim Sherwood would've been a better fit for Alan.

does it? You think his front 4 will help much in defending? The only way you could defend against tiki taka is to defend as a team and while he has the perfect core in his "back 6" i dont think the others are suited to that way of playing.

 

[Balu]

@Šjor Bepo don't say that I didn't warn you in the main thread, Ivanov didn't play there. It was Metreveli in 1960 and Chislenko in 1964

I understand that Ivanov didn't play there, but can't you see him doing a sort of free drifting right AM role here? He definitely adds a goal threat in the context of this draft and from what I've seen (probably nowhere as much as you did of course), I could see him playing the role well and Hidegkuti setting him up similar to how Ponedelnik set up Ivanov's two goals in the semifinal in 1960.

 

[harms]

does it? You think his front 4 will help much in defending? The only way you could defend against tiki taka is to defend as a team and while he has the perfect core in his "back 6" i dont think the others are suited to that way of playing.

Your team reminds me more of a Spain 2012 than of Pep's Barca tbf, and I rate the former much less. As I said, Pep insisted on stretching the play, so the opponent didn't have the option of defending narrow. Against you, they can, and when they will take the ball (don't say me that they won't, you have brilliant technical players, but only one played in this overdone possession-style football), you will have much more problems against his wingers + Shearer than he will against you. Even if Shearer and Zidane aren't going to be the best fit in my opinion (hence the Sherwood joke). Plus, he has the best central defender on the pitch.

 

[harms]

I understand that Ivanov didn't play there, but can't you see him doing a sort of free drifting right AM role here? He definitely adds a goal threat in the context of this draft and from what I've seen (probably nowhere as much as you did of course), I could see him playing the role well and Hidegkuti setting him up similar to how Ponedelnik set up Ivanov's two goals in the semifinal in 1960.

He can, but, as I said, my main issue wasn't with Ivanov himself, but with him overcrowding this central zone and making it easier for Wimmer and Zagorakis to defend against them. There won't be any space for him - the kind of space that Meskhi and Metreveli provided for him in 1960. And if you want Hidegkuti dropping deep, Suarez and Giresse occupying those CM/AM slots - it just doesn't look convincing to me that they won't interfere with each other.

I'm tired of arguing against Sjor, it's like I'm doing a job for The Stain and I like Sjor's team better on a personal level

 

[Balu]

Plus, he has the best central defender on the pitch.

Förster? He is the best central defender on the pitch. But then, he played as a right centerback in a back five and excelled as a man-marker. Not entirely sure if you get the best out of him as a left centerback in a back four against a false 9.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@harms the connection with Barca is pretty irrelevant, i just saw few similarities and use that to some kind of introduction to my tactic.
I dont understand why you keep thinking i dont have the width. I have more or at least the same amount of width Barca/Spain had. Barca played with two "wingers" who drifted inside/behind and thats what my "wingers" will do. Briegel will provide width on the left side just like Dani Alves provided on the right for Barca and Gary on the right is upgrade on Abidal on the left in terms of width + we have Giresse in his floating playmaker role similar to what Iniesta did on the side where we have defensive fullback.

As for centerback, Forster probably is the best basing on Euro form but my partnership is better as i dont see Puyol as great option in the team where centerbacks will have a lot to do + what balu said

 

[harms]

Förster? He is the best central defender on the pitch. But then, he played as a right centerback in a back five and excelled as a man-marker. Not entirely sure if you get the best out of him as a left centerback in a back four against a false 9.

A good point.

 

[harms]

we have Giresse in his floating playmaker role similar to what Iniesta did on the side

Oh, I missed that, if you said that earlier. That's what I was talking about. Okay, I'm in.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Oh, I missed that, if you said that earlier. That's what I was talking about

few times

 

[harms]

few times

Yeah, just checked. Sorry

Spoiler

 

[Balu]

Okay, I'm in.

 

[Moby]

That 2012 was pretty underwhelming in terms of the overall domination of the opponents even compared to the wc winning one. Iniesta pretty much carried them in attack and it took a blinder from him to doh that. I won't draw comparisons to that team if I were you. For starters you have Suarez who preformed better as a central midfielder than any of the Spanish central midfielders that year.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

That 2012 was pretty underwhelming in terms of the overall domination of the opponents even compared to the wc winning one. Iniesta pretty much carried them in attack and it took a blinder from him to doh that. I won't draw comparisons to that team if I were you. For starters you have Suarez who preformed better as a central midfielder than any of the Spanish central midfielders that year.

who compared this team to Spain in 2012? The only time i mentioned that team when i was trying to prove harms that you can make a result even with big number of "playmakers" in the team....

 

[antohan]

Hmmm... interesting side from @Šjor Bepo. Busquets is Busquets, Suárez the passer ala Xavi and Giresse as an Iniesta of sorts, with Hidegkuti the false 9. Nice. Couple with Stam-Nesta, it's a very compelling spine, although you would have question marks over recovery/pressing and how much they could all adhere to what was a key component of that tactical blueprint. One of those where you have to trust the players to do what the team requires of them, and they were all great players.

Flanks I'm not that convinced about. Podolski works in that role, and Briegel is brilliant, but I'm not too clear on how Gaz and Ivanov work. Room for improvement there.

The Stain's main strengths are the centreback pairing (awesome Euros, absolutely awesome) and the three men behind the striker, but both are somewhat negated. The CBs, Forster in particular, would be better off facing a traditional centreforward than a false 9 like Hidegkuti. Shearer, while he had great Euros, is absolutely not the sort of striker I fancy Zidane to operate well with. He always had forwards who were more footballers with excellent movement than traditional centreforwards, particularly with France at the Euros. It's a bit of aan arse with Shearer, because this is the sort of draft where he should shine (or in a PL one), but I can't for the life of me see him as a lone striker.

It's a shame because Czibor-Zidane-Amancio is final-ready. Put someone like Elkjaer at the end of it and I would have voted it all the way, but Shearer breaks it down for me and I don't see the supporting cast in midfield and defence servicing these guys that well. The beauty of those wingers would be quick lightning counters, but I don't see quick transitions so it relies more on Zidane carving up the defence with the wrong striker helping him with his movement.

 

[antohan]

who compared this team to Spain in 2012? The only time i mentioned that team when i was trying to prove harms that you can make a result even with big number of "playmakers" in the team....

Well, that's an own goal comment. I agree in that you can always do with playmaking from different areas of the pitch (e.g. a Scirea from deep, a Junior from out wide, a Schuster in midfield and someone further up the pitch) but you don't want to concentrate it too much in one area because it leads to the footballing equivalent of paralysis by analysis. If everyone is trying to "make plays" who is testing the limits and carrying out the execution? And you end up with a team that can't score for toffee.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Well, that's an own goal comment. I agree in that you can always do with playmaking from different areas of the pitch (e.g. a Scirea from deep, a Junior from out wide, a Schuster in midfield and someone further up the pitch) but you don't want to concentrate it too much in one area because it leads to the footballing equivalent of paralysis by analysis. If everyone is trying to "make plays" who is testing the limits and carrying out the execution? And you end up with a team that can't score for toffee.

you have to read the discussion, i didnt said i want them all to be playmakers. They all have different roles in the team, i compared them with Spain 2012 as that was the side full of "playmakers" and it worked. My side is totally different so that was only an example. If you have players with good football brain they are pretty adaptable so my opinion is that you cant have to much football brain on the pitch, specially in this kind of football i intend to play.

As for Gary, he will have Abidal/Arbeloa role. No risk in his play, no running with the ball. Will provide width but will play pretty safe and will focus mainly on defensive part of his game

 

[antohan]

you have to read the discussion, i didnt said i want them all to be playmakers. They all have different roles in the team, i compared them with Spain 2012 as that was the side full of "playmakers" and it worked. My side is totally different so that was only an example. If you have players with good football brain they are pretty adaptable so my opinion is that you cant have to much football brain on the pitch, specially in this kind of football i intend to play.

As for Gary, he will have Abidal/Arbeloa role. No risk in his play, no running with the ball. Will provide width but will play pretty safe and will focus mainly on defensive part of his game

Indeed, not holding that against you. Just saying I can see where Aldo is coming from there.

As for Gary, yeah, I assumed as much, and he will be OK, just nothing to write home about.

 

[The Stain]

@The Stain

Out of Puyol, Forster, Zagorakis and Wimmer are any of them that good on the ball? The way I see it, for you to play well you need swift counter-attacks but I don't see anyone able to do it. Granted your front 4 is lethal but I don't think they'll get the ball quick enough. Bepo's defense will be settled and hard to break down assuming they didn't win it back quickly from pressing.

Both Wimmer and Zagorakis were good on the ball. There's a a clip highlighting just this about Zago in my write-up. His excellent vision, retention and keeping of possession 2004 won him Player of the tournament.

Don't think there's a lack of discussion as someone said hehe. Me and Sjor wrote a lot, both in our write ups, then more about tactics when the match had started.

Someone mentions Sjor staying true to the theme as an argument. Look at my team, look at my write up. It's as true to the theme as it gets hehe.

Shearer adds something different. He won't be involved in play so much but'll leave that for Czibor/Zidane/Amancio with Wimmer/Zago/Zambrotta/Joao Pinto providing passive support. Obviously Zambrotta and Pinto will run up and down the wings all day long, but the main creator are the attacking mids. Shearer will drift around, bully people and you can make sure he'll be where the ball lands in the penalty area.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Förster? He is the best central defender on the pitch. But then, he played as a right centerback in a back five and excelled as a man-marker. Not entirely sure if you get the best out of him as a left centerback in a back four against a false 9.

Interesting point that. @The Stain you said in your write up that "Förster will do the man marking, completely taking the oppositions main man out of the game." Does that mean that he'll be following Hidegkuti when he drops deep, or does he leave him for one of your midfielders to pick up?

 

[The Stain]

Interesting point that. @The Stain you said in your write up that "Förster will do the man marking, completely taking the oppositions main man out of the game." Does that mean that he'll be following Hidegkuti when he drops deep, or does he leave him for one of your midfielders to pick up?

@Balu would obviously know more about Förster than me, but i've seen mentions of Förster to the left in defence too. Overall, all my players play in their preferred positions. Something you can't say for Ivanov for example. Förster's rated as the best man-marker ever so i'm sure he's smart enough to make a judgement call.

In this game i think him and Puyol would take turns as it's so congested in the middle with; Ivanov, Giresse, Hidegkuti (Suarez tends to drift wide though but he wants Podolski running behind defense, take note that my team will drop deeper in own half). I want 1 central defender ready when a pass has penetrated defense (i'm realistic, we can't not let a chance through all game, haha). With Zago and Wimmer both excellent man markers/tacklers, my team is more than equipped to handle anything they'll come up against in this game.

There's been a lot of discussion about this already. My main point is; what happens when the ball reaches the flanks where we intend to do most of our attacking? I feel i am superior in this area and it'll reap it's rewards. There are mentions of this in my earlier posts.

Mainly; he's playing a high line which is suicidal against Czibor/Amancio. Zambrotta was the best fullback in the world 2004 so he'll be a massive contributor. Sir Bobby Robson once said this about Joao Pinto: "He has 2 hearts and 4 legs, it's very hard finding a player like him), he will never give up, a true winner who will sacrifice his ears and left leg for the team. The amount of running my team will do on the flanks is immense and will very likely result in goals. Zidane finished 2nd in Balon d'Or 2000 and was Player of the tournament in the EURO's the same year so it's close to peak Zidane i'm getting.

Haha, all from talking about Förster. I won't discuss anymore as i've written A LOT now. Still answer any potential q's, though.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Hmmm... interesting side from @Šjor Bepo. Busquets is Busquets, Suárez the passer ala Xavi and Giresse as an Iniesta of sorts, with Hidegkuti the false 9. Nice. Couple with Stam-Nesta, it's a very compelling spine, although you would have question marks over recovery/pressing and how much they could all adhere to what was a key component of that tactical blueprint. One of those where you have to trust the players to do what the team requires of them, and they were all great players.

Flanks I'm not that convinced about. Podolski works in that role, and Briegel is brilliant, but I'm not too clear on how Gaz and Ivanov work. Room for improvement there.

The Stain's main strengths are the centreback pairing (awesome Euros, absolutely awesome) and the three men behind the striker, but both are somewhat negated. The CBs, Forster in particular, would be better off facing a traditional centreforward than a false 9 like Hidegkuti. Shearer, while he had great Euros, is absolutely not the sort of striker I fancy Zidane to operate well with. He always had forwards who were more footballers with excellent movement than traditional centreforwards, particularly with France at the Euros. It's a bit of aan arse with Shearer, because this is the sort of draft where he should shine (or in a PL one), but I can't for the life of me see him as a lone striker.

It's a shame because Czibor-Zidane-Amancio is final-ready. Put someone like Elkjaer at the end of it and I would have voted it all the way, but Shearer breaks it down for me and I don't see the supporting cast in midfield and defence servicing these guys that well. The beauty of those wingers would be quick lightning counters, but I don't see quick transitions so it relies more on Zidane carving up the defence with the wrong striker helping him with his movement.

I agree that someone like Elkjaer would have been better. But I still quite like the setup here with Shearer up against Nesta and Stam. He won't see much joy himself but it will take both Stam and Nesta out of the game against the wingers and Zidane as Shearer won't leave their space.

Defensively Zidane will find space rather easily and he'll set up some beautiful attacks for the wingers, or get involved with them himself and find some great options to shoot or find Shearer with a through-ball.

I have a hard time seeing Sjop outscoring the Stain here, while I think the Stain has some very apparent goal threats. Against a central midfield/defensive midfielder of better quality defensively then Shearer not being mobile enough will cause issues unless he upgrades the full backs to the absolute top quality and is capable of dominating the flanks and find chances that way.

Voted for the Stain but I think it would be an even game. Amancio/Czibor pushing it for the Stain.

 

[Balu]

I think you could use Förster to mark Hidegkuti, the question is in what shape it leaves your defense when Förster follows him into midfield. I'd argue that the best way to counter that false 9 set-up would be to keep a well organised shape in defense, don't let your players get dragged all over the pitch, because that inevitably opens gaps to exploit.

It's just so very very different to how Germany played in the 80's. Bit of an unlucky match-up for your defense in my opinion. And I really really rate Förster, it's not about his quality at all.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Balu would obviously know more about Förster than me, but i've seen mentions of Förster to the left in defence too. Overall, all my players play in their preferred positions. Something you can't say for Ivanov for example. Förster's rated as the best man-marker ever so i'm sure he's smart enough to make a judgement call.

In this game i think him and Puyol would take turns as it's so congested in the middle with; Ivanov, Giresse, Hidegkuti (Suarez tends to drift wide though but he wants Podolski running behind defense, take note that my team will drop deeper in own half). I want 1 central defender ready when a pass has penetrated defense (i'm realistic, we can't not let a chance through all game, haha). With Zago and Wimmer both excellent man markers/tacklers, my team is more than equipped to handle anything they'll come up against in this game.

There's been a lot of discussion about this already. My main point is; what happens when the ball reaches the flanks where we intend to do most of our attacking? I feel i am superior in this area and it'll reap it's rewards. There are mentions of this in my earlier posts.

Mainly; he's playing a high line which is suicidal against Czibor/Amancio. Zambrotta was the best fullback in the world 2004 so he'll be a massive contributor. Sir Bobby Robson once said this about Joao Pinto: "He has 2 hearts and 4 legs, it's very hard finding a player like him), he will never give up, a true winner who will sacrifice his ears and left leg for the team. The amount of running my team will do on the flanks is immense and will very likely result in goals. Zidane finished 2nd in Balon d'Or 2000 and was Player of the tournament in the EURO's the same year so it's close to peak Zidane i'm getting.

Haha, all from talking about Förster. I won't discuss anymore as i've written A LOT now. Still answer any potential q's, though.

Epic response mate . I'm seriously struggling to decide here. Your point about the congestion in central areas is a valid one, but his attackers are technically good enough to make the eye of a needle type passing moves work, and the likes of Suarez and Giresse could effectively provide width. I really like Podolski's role too. With your attack, Shearer flanked by high-quality wingers is clearly a threatening route to goal, but Stam is a great fit to contain him. Sorry mate, going to vote for Sjor for now, but I might well end up changing my vote.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

In this game i think him and Puyol would take turns as it's so congested in the middle with; Ivanov, Giresse, Hidegkuti (Suarez tends to drift wide though but he wants Podolski running behind defense, take note that my team will drop deeper in own half). I want 1 central defender ready when a pass has penetrated defense (i'm realistic, we can't not let a chance through all game, haha). With Zago and Wimmer both excellent man markers/tacklers, my team is more than equipped to handle anything they'll come up against in this game.

There's been a lot of discussion about this already. My main point is; what happens when the ball reaches the flanks where we intend to do most of our attacking? I feel i am superior in this area and it'll reap it's rewards. There are mentions of this in my earlier posts.

Mainly; he's playing a high line which is suicidal against Czibor/Amancio. Zambrotta was the best fullback in the world 2004 so he'll be a massive contributor. Sir Bobby Robson once said this about Joao Pinto: "He has 2 hearts and 4 legs, it's very hard finding a player like him), he will never give up, a true winner who will sacrifice his ears and left leg for the team. The amount of running my team will do on the flanks is immense and will very likely result in goals. Zidane finished 2nd in Balon d'Or 2000 and was Player of the tournament in the EURO's the same year so it's close to peak Zidane i'm getting.

i really dont see that much of congestion in the middle. My team will use the width of the pitch so they can find little gaps in your defence + the wider i play the more running your players have to do and the fact you have only 6 bodies who are active in defence your team will crack up specially considering you want your fullbacks to bomb up and down which is in fact suicide as you already have problem(although so far i think im the only one who see it) with numbers at the back.

One more thing which is more a question to others then it is my opinion. I only watched 1 game of Czibor and he really didnt cross the ball much. I know brilliant winger/Shearer in the middle looks brilliant on paper but is Czibor that type of player? From what i saw he either combined with teammates or ended the action with a shoot, but i only saw one game so.....

 

[Balu]

One more thing which is more a question to others then it is my opinion. I only watched 1 game of Czibor and he really didnt cross the ball much. I know brilliant winger/Shearer in the middle looks brilliant on paper but is Czibor that type of player? From what i saw he either combined with teammates or ended the action with a shoot, but i only saw one game so.....

Czibor's pinpoint crosses on Kocsis' head were pretty fantastic . What game did you watch? The World Cup final from 1954? Because that was one of the rare games where he played on the right and had to cross with his weaker foot (which wasn't that weak, he even took corners with his right foot sometimes, but it's obvious that he isn't playing in his best position in that game).

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Czibor's pinpoint crosses on Kocsis' head were pretty fantastic . What game did you watch? The World Cup final from 1954? Because that was one of the rare games where he played on the right and had to cross with his weaker foot (which wasn't that weak, he even took corners with his right foot sometimes, but it's obvious that he isn't playing in his best position in that game).

friendly against england.....but to be fair most of the attacks went over Hidegkuti and Puskas in that game as englend couldnt find solution how to stop them.

 

[The Stain]

@Šjor Bepo downplaying Czibor's role in this game is dirty, but ok.. It's been a good match and i think i have made all my points why i think i edge it. I think Sjor has a sexy team too. I'm very proud of my team (EURO performances/unsung hero's) and am happy however this ends up.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Šjor Bepo downplaying Czibor's role in this game is dirty, but ok.. It's been a good match and i think i have made all my points why i think i edge it. I think Sjor has a sexy team too. I'm very proud of my team (EURO performances/unsung hero's) and am happy however this ends up.

That wasnt my intention i just asked because i dont know much about his playing style and in the match that i watched he looked different to someone who would compliment Shearer, sorry

 

[Balu]

You two are way too nice to each other. I miss big red123, at least he caused some drama.

 

[The Stain]

You two are way too nice to each other. I miss big red123, at least he caused some drama.

Hahaa, no, he was just a big pain in the arse.

 

[MJJ]

Am thinking of changin my vote.

Sjor 8
Stain 7
Draw 6

That has a nice symmetry to it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Wow, Stain leading after that early rush from Bepo!

 

[antohan]

friendly against england.....but to be fair most of the attacks went over Hidegkuti and Puskas in that game as englend couldnt find solution how to stop them.

And crossing into the box is probably what England would have felt most comfortable with

"Look at that podgy fella, we are going to murder this lot" - famous last words describing Puskas