The Euro Draft - Round 1 - Aldo vs Skizzo

[harms]

feck that shit. Everyone should know Albert vs. Brazil can't be from a Euro tournament but at the very least they get an idea of what sort of player he was.

The only thing wrong there was "second best player on the pitch", which would be a reasonable personal take on a peak level, if not Euro form. Nothing to get your knickers in a twist about, the point here is that many discover great players, who gives a rats about the scorelines?

Let's face it, even if you posted a Baros '04 clip most will just think Baros Liverpool flop, so it goes both ways.

All in all: STOP TRYING TO MAKE UP SHIT RULES TO MAKE THE GAMES "FAIRER", IT'S NOT A feckING ENGINEERING PROJECT, IT'S FOOTBALL AND MOST PEOPLE WILL BE BIASED AS feck. DEAL WITH IT.

Discovering great players and discovering players that performed well on Euro (which is also interesting) are different things, both equally interesting for me. I overreacted a little though, because Albert was suddenly a game-changer on page 2, I think.

Agree with no make-up rules.

 

[antohan]

@crappycraperson switched?

 

[Moby]

Late vote there for Skizzo and Pat..

 

[The Stain]

Will read through the thread now and make a decision. Don't know the score. I have 40 minutes or so?

 

[Moby]

Yep.

 

[crappycraperson]

@crappycraperson switched?

Yeah. I did not want to post why since people will accuse me of trying to big up one of my own players. I just do not agree with what all Aldo wrote about Cocu taking over Senna's role in his team. To me it all read like that he would actually prefer to have Biscuits next to Xavi instead of Senna but is still pining to somehow have a team similar to Spain 08.

 

[harms]

Will read through the thread now and make a decision. Don't know the score. I have 40 minutes or so?

Great decision


Penalties!!

 

[The Stain]

Wow! Can't believe i would have decided the fixture. It was impossible to make a judgement without properly reading up on the teams. I feel if Aldo would have opted for a defensive midfielder behind his 2 central ones, that would have made me go for him.

 

[Raees]

I was about to vote Aldo to take it to Pens, thank feck I didn't. Got em anyway.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Great decision


Penalties!!

im the partybreaker(for now at least)
in the end i would give slight advantage to aldo....

 

[MJJ]

I was about to vote Aldo to take it to Pens, thank feck I didn't. Got em anyway.

Nah, Aldo won. Just about.

 

[Raees]

Nah, Aldo won. Just about.

What a cracking game, unlucky Skizzo... congrats Aldo. Both teams deserved to feature during the latter stages.

 

[antohan]

Yeah. I did not want to post why since people will accuse me of trying to big up one of my own players. I just do not agree with what all Aldo wrote about Cocu taking over Senna's role in his team. To me it all read like that he would actually prefer to have Biscuits next to Xavi instead of Senna but is still pining to somehow have a team similar to Spain 08.

I imagined, thus the

I actually read that thinking "Oops, crappy won't like that".

That's what I mean with "don't think of an elephant". Aldo's setup does have a lot in common with Spain '08 but isn't an exact replica. By comparing you only draw attention to the differences that are downsides when it actually has its own merits. I'd argue it has Spain'08 at its heart and interesting shades of Spain'12 and Czechia '04.

On a separate note, I didn't want to press on that point too much but I'm frankly baffled Skizzo got away with that backline. Ramos played for a possession side but whenever not in that setting (Real) Iniesta regularly shat on him. Olivella is a randomer facing a tourno top scorer in an ideal setting and Jarni can't possibly live with Nedved. If you add Bonhof then add Kaltz, same result. The only one not out of his depth there was Popluhar vs. Albert but even with Monti's support I don't see how they could keep up with Xavi-Iniesta-Albert-Lahm combinations. Three of them proven in that philosophy and Albert probably one of the best Messi impersonations you could find pre-66.

 

[antohan]

Oops, wrote that assuming 8-8 was the final scoreline.

WTF are you all doing waiting for the last minute to try engineer a draw? More often than noy someone else ends up deciding it anyway!

 

[antohan]

Discovering great players and discovering players that performed well on Euro (which is also interesting) are different things, both equally interesting for me. I overreacted a little though, because Albert was suddenly a game-changer on page 2, I think.

Agree with no make-up rules.

It is indeed quite interesting to draw the differences. Probably more an academic exercise, but imagine Messi and Ronaldo had played in the 50s... all footage (and press coverage at the time) would be from this sort of tourno. Baros '56 would shit on them and be some sort of legend of the game

Puts some perspective on the well-trodden argument that "you have to do it at Int'l level". I'm a big advocate of that even when, in fairness, that's all the legends of old needed to do while now you have to sustain legendary status performances week in, week out, over several seasons, and still find enough left in the tank for the tournos.

Anyhow, I digress. Can't believe you google translated hungarian articles on a player that doesn't even play for or against you. That takes some beating

 

[Skizzo]

Well you'll never win a draft game when anto has the second most amount of posts, with 95% of them against your team.

Congrats @Aldo good luck for the rest of the draft!

 

[antohan]

Well you'll never win a draft game when anto has the second most amount of posts, with 95% of them against your team.

Congrats @Aldo good luck for the rest of the draft!

TBH, I think I was quite civil. When your players were portrayed wrongly/unfairly I did support them (Arnesen, Suker, Popluhar). I just couldn't see how you could beat that midfield so it's difficult to wax lyrical about it.

The one thing that kept me from voting for much of the first half was Dasayev, he had the potential to play a blinder and we do know there wouldn't be too many chances in this game. I even teed you up and he still got ignored.

The one thing you had going for you here was Netzer would find MvB a few times and bound to score one, while you had a keeper who could conceivably level things while facing more chances. Everywhere else on the pitch you were well beaten IMO.

 

[Gio]

Bollocks, missed the cut-off here. Always difficult to separate Aldo's likely possession dominance versus the match-winning-even-against-the-cosh capacity of Van Basten and Netzer.

 

[Skizzo]

TBH, I think I was quite civil. When your players were portrayed wrongly/unfairly I did support them (Arnesen, Suker, Popluhar). I just couldn't see how you could beat that midfield so it's difficult to wax lyrical about it.

The one thing that kept me from voting for much of the first half was Dasayev, he had the potential to play a blinder and we do know there wouldn't be too many chances in this game. I even teed you up and he still got ignored.

The one thing you had going for you here was Netzer would find MvB a few times and bound to score one, while you had a keeper who could conceivably level things while facing more chances. Everywhere else on the pitch you were well beaten IMO.

Previous draft you came in saying the keepers aren't equal, maybe this would decide a match for once, blah blah going on about it.... Here you think that's a potential difference maker, but you "tee it up" rather than observing or mentioning it.

I don't feel that we lost unfairly, Aldo obviously has a great team, and this would be decided by fine margins either way. Just commenting on your "style" here which makes me realize why so many don't play when you're involved. Or have you on ignore already because of these drafts

 

[antohan]

Previous draft you came in saying the keepers aren't equal, maybe this would decide a match for once, blah blah going on about it.... Here you think that's a potential difference maker, but you "tee it up" rather than observing or mentioning it.

BTW @Pat_Mustard @Skizzo I don't think I've ever seen Datsayev, Dassaev or Dasayev, but no idea where the t came up.

As it stands, probably the third best player in your team. First you can't see past Netzer-van Basten, but when you manage to do it it's a bit of a mish mash while @Aldo looks brilliant across the board. Happel for Carvalho instead of going for a no-mark striker was a great coup.

It's not just a tee up, that's some statement when it comes to a fantasy side. Half of my first post on the thread is on Dasayev, asking you a question, which should lead to a discussion on Dasayev. No?

What happened instead was Edgar started having a pop at how 4 can't dominate a midfield (against four, wtf?); others started having a pop at Cocu and suddenly Senna was the cornerstone of Spain '08 (not that he wasn't important, but it was a bit much). When a midfield sports some of my favourite players and, for once, I see Xavi-Iniesta in anything other than a 4-3-3 and looking credible I was only going to end up embroiled in that discussion.

I don't feel that we lost unfairly, Aldo obviously has a great team, and this would be decided by fine margins either way. Just commenting on your "style" here which makes me realize why so many don't play when you're involved. Or have you on ignore already because of these drafts

I think you are mistaken with my ignoring Theon, which I dropped some time ago. It's werewolf that people ignore my posts on

 

[Balu]

I personally think antohan's influence on other posters is vastly overrated.

Anyway, congrats @Aldo , bad luck @Skizzo & @Pat_Mustard . Thanks for playing.

 

[Skizzo]

I personally think antohan's influence on other posters is vastly overrated.

Anyway, congrats @Aldo , bad luck @Skizzo & @Pat_Mustard . Thanks for playing.

Thanks for hosting! Was an awesome concept. Look forward to reading more about some of these teams and players.

 

[antohan]

I personally think antohan's influence on other posters is vastly overrated.

I know! It was quite ironic I supposedly influenced the game while everyone apparently has me on ignore

It's always the same story though and I'm a bit fed up with it to be honest. I come in here to discuss teams and players, looked at discussing Dasayev and Skizzo's team further but the only discussion on offer was a few people having a go at Aldo's midfield. I just happen to disagree, sue me.

 

[MJJ]

I know! It was quite ironic I supposedly influenced the game while everyone apparently has me on ignore

It's always the same story though and I'm a bit fed up with it to be honest. I come in here to discuss teams and players, looked at discussing Dasayev and Skizzo's team further but the only discussion on offer was a few people having a go at Aldo's midfield. I just happen to disagree, sue me.

Not if you are gonna argue the same way in court like you do in WW and drafts.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Haven't had time to post and vote in this one was I had to write an OP with limited time. Made sense that Aldo won it, two very even teams and then Aldo had a team that was easier on the eyes with almost exclusively "famous" players. Aldo had a very strong team for a first round here with the entire midfield complete and now it will turn a bit difficult to upgrade it seriously.

Great job Aldo and unlucky Skizzo and Pat who had a brilliant team too.

 

[antohan]

Not if you are gonna argue the same way in court like you do in WW and drafts.

Wolf!

 

[NM]

Not if you are gonna argue the same way in court like you do in WW and drafts.

Wolf!

I would have voted Skizzo if I was online and had seen this.

Sorry @Skizzo

 

[antohan]

Haven't had time to post and vote in this one was I had to write an OP with limited time. Made sense that Aldo won it, two very even teams and then Aldo had a team that was easier on the eyes with almost exclusively "famous" players. Aldo had a very strong team for a first round here with the entire midfield complete and now it will turn a bit difficult to upgrade it seriously.

Great job Aldo and unlucky Skizzo and Pat who had a brilliant team too.

Indeed, which is why I summarily dismissed it early on and assumed we would move on to Skizzo's team, as it clearly needed more explanation and had some things going for it which wouldn't be immediately obvious (midfield balance, Suker not being Inzaghi, Popluhar as a good match for Albert, Dasayev as opposed to whatshisname...). I actually thought it would be one of those were I spend all game building up a team, then "randomly" voting against it (the disparity on the flanks was brutal beyond redemption).

But for some reason the midfield which is already complete and everyone should understand how it works was the one being questioned. Probably because everyone is familiar with the one it was supposed to mirror, but still quite a bizarre turn of events.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think the clear problem with Aldo's team is that it is the only type of football tactics which has a large group of people absolutely hating it to death in a completely irrational manner. There is just no other setup that is disliked at all to the same degree and it means Aldo can't really emphasis what was really great with his team and players without risking having people misunderstanding him on purpose.

The more Aldo will try to stray away from the fact that Spain were terrific in possession and at dominating it when they wanted too - and in '08 broke the record for most completed passes per game with 450 - the more it will come back to haunt him.

Spain played with Iniesta and Silva as false wingers and there is nothing wrong in that, but the sole reason they did that was to win through being great at passing. Fabregas started against Greece in the group stages then in the final and he replaced one of the strikers in the 34th minute against Russia in the KO-stages and after 50~ minutes against them in the group.

The main replacement for the wide positions was Cazorla who as well is a playmaking winger. If Aldo had two number 9's like Torres and Villa up front it would have had some significance as Spain in '08 had slightly more crosses per game as they had two targets up front. But with Florian Albert here it is more like a 4-2-3-1 with two false-wingers which will whether you want it or not do great in possession.

I get Aldo though, it is fecking annoying to get all the bias that people have against Tiki-Taka thrown at your face and counting against you. But IMO embracing the fact that Spain were fecking ridiculously good in that regard will have you go further than trying to do the opposite.

You will face some odd Tiki-Taka hater, even if Spain never played tiki-taka but feck it. Not trying to critique anything, rather give the Spain team the credit they deserve as consecutive winners and beating so many records(Biggest final win too, conceding almost nothing blalbalbla)

 

[antohan]

The pent-up frustration is strong in you Young Padawan

 

[Skizzo]

I would have voted Skizzo if I was online and had seen this.

Sorry @Skizzo

It's all good.

I'll never forget this though

 

[Skizzo]

I know! It was quite ironic I supposedly influenced the game while everyone apparently has me on ignore

It's always the same story though and I'm a bit fed up with it to be honest. I come in here to discuss teams and players, looked at discussing Dasayev and Skizzo's team further but the only discussion on offer was a few people having a go at Aldo's midfield. I just happen to disagree, sue me.

I didn't say that everyone has you on ignore...just that some do, and the others dont get involved

You wolfy feck.

 

[NM]

It's all good.

I'll never forget this though

so I guess I'm fecked in the next sheep draft?

 

[MJJ]

I think the clear problem with Aldo's team is that it is the only type of football tactics which has a large group of people absolutely hating it to death in a completely irrational manner. There is just no other setup that is disliked at all to the same degree and it means Aldo can't really emphasis what was really great with his team and players without risking having people misunderstanding him on purpose.

The more Aldo will try to stray away from the fact that Spain were terrific in possession and at dominating it when they wanted too - and in '08 broke the record for most completed passes per game with 450 - the more it will come back to haunt him.

Spain played with Iniesta and Silva as false wingers and there is nothing wrong in that, but the sole reason they did that was to win through being great at passing. Fabregas started against Greece in the group stages then in the final and he replaced one of the strikers in the 34th minute against Russia in the KO-stages and after 50~ minutes against them in the group.

The main replacement for the wide positions was Cazorla who as well is a playmaking winger. If Aldo had two number 9's like Torres and Villa up front it would have had some significance as Spain in '08 had slightly more crosses per game as they had two targets up front. But with Florian Albert here it is more like a 4-2-3-1 with two false-wingers which will whether you want it or not do great in possession.

I get Aldo though, it is fecking annoying to get all the bias that people have against Tiki-Taka thrown at your face and counting against you. But IMO embracing the fact that Spain were fecking ridiculously good in that regard will have you go further than trying to do the opposite.

You will face some odd Tiki-Taka hater, even if Spain never played tiki-taka but feck it. Not trying to critique anything, rather give the Spain team the credit they deserve as consecutive winners and beating so many records(Biggest final win too, conceding almost nothing blalbalbla)

Thats just bs though.

 

[Skizzo]

so I guess I'm fecked in the next sheep draft?

Some of the criteria for the next sheep draft.

If your username starts with an N, pick a player that has only ever appeared playing for your local 5 a-side team.
If your username ends with an M, pick a player that has made less than one professional appearance.
If your username has only 2 letters, pick a player that is called Prunier
If your username backwards is the abbreviated way of saying the American state of Minnesota, pick a player that no one likes.

 

[Moby]

Woah, that was close.

Tough luck @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard . And thanks for the votes!

 

[Moby]

I think the clear problem with Aldo's team is that it is the only type of football tactics which has a large group of people absolutely hating it to death in a completely irrational manner. There is just no other setup that is disliked at all to the same degree and it means Aldo can't really emphasis what was really great with his team and players without risking having people misunderstanding him on purpose.

The more Aldo will try to stray away from the fact that Spain were terrific in possession and at dominating it when they wanted too - and in '08 broke the record for most completed passes per game with 450 - the more it will come back to haunt him.

Spain played with Iniesta and Silva as false wingers and there is nothing wrong in that, but the sole reason they did that was to win through being great at passing. Fabregas started against Greece in the group stages then in the final and he replaced one of the strikers in the 34th minute against Russia in the KO-stages and after 50~ minutes against them in the group.

The main replacement for the wide positions was Cazorla who as well is a playmaking winger. If Aldo had two number 9's like Torres and Villa up front it would have had some significance as Spain in '08 had slightly more crosses per game as they had two targets up front. But with Florian Albert here it is more like a 4-2-3-1 with two false-wingers which will whether you want it or not do great in possession.

I get Aldo though, it is fecking annoying to get all the bias that people have against Tiki-Taka thrown at your face and counting against you. But IMO embracing the fact that Spain were fecking ridiculously good in that regard will have you go further than trying to do the opposite.

You will face some odd Tiki-Taka hater, even if Spain never played tiki-taka but feck it. Not trying to critique anything, rather give the Spain team the credit they deserve as consecutive winners and beating so many records(Biggest final win too, conceding almost nothing blalbalbla)

I wasn't running away from tiki taka man. I love tiki taka, it is one of the best tactics ever created but Spain have never really played tiki taka, at least if you consider what Barca played was tiki taka. Spain in 10 and 12 dumbed it down to keep possession as a defensive tactic. Anyway that's another discussion, but I was mainly making sure people don't confuse that Aragones Spain team with teh VdB ones. I would never attempt to give a tribute to that Spain 2010 team.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Congrats Aldo. That was quite a performance from your team.

Though I simply can't believe MvB and Netzer didn't carry it through for Skizzo. Hard luck Skiz.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

And @antohan really don't understand the faux outrage. Non euro performances are simply not relevant and has no place in match thread. I can understand on knowing players better and the main draft thread is always there for that purpose. No one is trying to make it fairer, just avoiding stuff that anyway doesn't belong!

Anyway I lol'd

 

[Annahnomoss]

I wasn't running away from tiki taka man. I love tiki taka, it is one of the best tactics ever created but Spain have never really played tiki taka, at least if you consider what Barca played was tiki taka. Spain in 10 and 12 dumbed it down to keep possession as a defensive tactic. Anyway that's another discussion, but I was mainly making sure people don't confuse that Aragones Spain team with teh VdB ones. I would never attempt to give a tribute to that Spain 2010 team.

I was just trying to show the similarities between Aragones and Del Bosques Spain. Aragones team was up until that point the team who had completed the most average amount of passes per game ever in the Euro history. Even though they played with two strikers primary and changing one striker for a much better ball-player like you've done would further push the dominance of possession and increase the amount of passes etc too.

Your team is more of Aragones at his best, the final, the matches against Russia where Fabregas came on early instead of a striker.

The other matches were a 0-0 against Italy, then two narrow 2-1 victories against weak teams in Sweden and Greece. Villa scored the winner against Sweden in the 92nd minute and Guiza scored the winner against Greece in the 88th minute.

I think the 4-5-1 was a much better working team for them than the 4-4-2 and I think your team is a 4-5-1 already. That said you have already made it more direct and further better by adding Nedved who is comfortable at providing width on top of the inside midfield role.