The biggest question mark for me is hoeness in that role.
The Euro Draft - Round 1 - ctp vs Joga Bonito
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Thanks for that CTP.
I think we've talked enough about the shortcomings of my centre backs. I think it's time we talked about the negatives to your set-up, and I don't even mean Hoeneß and Bananaman as your wide midfielders. No, this is tactical!
However, you're also using your forward line to pressure my defenders, who, by the nature of my system, will be fairly deep inside my own half - and, as we've already established, I have ways to beat that line of pressure. After that, you're very open. Effenberg and Pluskal will have to cover a lot of space which will necessarily leave me with dangerous options.
Either you're giving Ocwirk and Nausch a lot of time to pick their passes - and you'd bet one of them would be successful at some point - or you're putting pressure on them too, which will give Mazzola and/or Rummenigge a lot of joy in the hole and leave them with a free run at your defence. Even a defence as good as yours will struggle if they're left alone against an attack like mine.
@Joga Bonito
I think that's fair enough with the defenders you have, especially Moore shouldn't be played too high up the pitch. For all his anticipation and positioning skills, he'll always come second in a race with Kluivert. Now, that alone isn't an issue.
However, you're also using your forward line to pressure my defenders, who, by the nature of my system, will be fairly deep inside my own half - and, as we've already established, I have ways to beat that line of pressure. After that, you're very open. Effenberg and Pluskal will have to cover a lot of space which will necessarily leave me with dangerous options.
Either you're giving Ocwirk and Nausch a lot of time to pick their passes - and you'd bet one of them would be successful at some point - or you're putting pressure on them too, which will give Mazzola and/or Rummenigge a lot of joy in the hole and leave them with a free run at your defence. Even a defence as good as yours will struggle if they're left alone against an attack like mine.
@Joga Bonito
. Pretty big fan of his, outside this draft even.Hmmm, I'd have Villa over Kluivert, Rummenigge over Elkjaer and Mazzola = Sindelar. Although one could argue that Sindelar was more pivotal in Austria's win in the CEIC as opposed to Mazzola's role in Italy '68 Euro triumph.
I'd just list out my players European Championship credentials. (Apologies if you've read some of these already, it's just convenient for me to list everything here for future references if I progress through.)
Platzer - Nothing too flashy, finished runners up to Italy in the third edition of the CEIC.
Bergomi - Finished in the TOTM alongside Maldini in 1988, and was rock solid as Italy conceded just 1 goal in 3 group games but finished below Germany on goal difference. Lost out in the semi finals to a strong Soviet side though. Italy with the exception of a select few were rather underwhelming.
Moore - One of the only two Englishmen to finish in the TOTM in '68, he was excellent individually although England were ultimately disappointing, with key figures such as Hurst and Stiles being injured for the first match, the English attack being underwhelming and with several tactical blunders being made by Sir Alf Ramsey. Proved to be pivotal figure in the 3rd-4th place off match against a strong Soviet side which had made the previous 2 finals and would have been in the final for '68 had it not been for a coin toss. Click here for more info on his Euro performances
Maldini - Finished a record 3 times in TOTM with only Blanc equalling this feat. Once again Italy flattered to deceive but Maldini was at his best in the 2000 edition where a compact Italian defense only let in 2 goals in the 5 games in the run up to the final. Maldini was probably the only Italian defender who could leave the final with his head held high as the likes of Cannavaro and Nesta were torn apart by Henry and co. Del Piero's misses on the other end proved costly as well.
Hoeneß - In the TOTM for the 1972 edition. Played a vital role as Germany made consecutive finals, winning the 1972 version. Hoeneß was at his best and played a stormer against England in the quarter finals where he opened the scoring with a thumping shot outside the penalty box and assisted the third for Müller after jinxing past 2 players, in a thrilling 3-1 victory. Despite making the final of the next edition, he was far from his best as a knee injury in 1975 made him a pale shadow of the player that he once was and wrecked his career, which had once promised so much.
Pluskal - His Central European International Cup exploits were incredible to say the least, for what is perhaps the best Czechoslovakian team of all time. Simply put, he did not lose a single game in the tournament; his individual record reads P8 W6 D2 L0. He played 7 games in Czechoslovakia's victorious campaign of the final version of the CEIC, whereby they pipped the legendary Mighty Magyars to the title by a single point. They only suffered a single defeat throughout the tournament, losing 1-3 to Hungary in their first encounter, a match in which, needless to say, Pluskal didn't feature. In the return fixture, Pluskal proved to be the decisive difference as they inflicted the solitary defeat of Hungary's tournament, an encounter which would ultimately prove to be the match which determined the champions of the tournament. Click here for more info
Effenberg - TOTM 1992. Part of the German team which was on the cusp of Euro glory but for one Great Dane standing in their way, on the final. Was a proverbial one man engine room for Germany, holding together a light weight and an overly attacking midfield (featuring the likes of Doll
, Möller and Häßler) together and shielding a fantastic 5 men backline, before being aided by Sammer in the knock out rounds.McM - TOTM 1996. One of the stars for England, alongside Shearer and Gazza, in the '96 edition (the only tournament in which McM was at his best for England) as they made the semis but naturally lost out to Germany in the semis after a penalty shootout.
Sindelar - The star of the 2nd edtion of the CEICs where he led the Wunderteam to victory, esp with a 2 goal cameo against Italy in a 2-1 win proving decisive as Austria finished 2 points above Italy in the league standings. Click here for more info.
Elkjaer - Weirdly not in the TOTM (only one forward - Voller - was in the TOTM with a glut of midfielders dominating the TOTM places). Had a great tournament in the '84 edition and quite simply the best Dane from the Danish Dynamites team in that tournament, eclipsing Laudrup even. Upon Denmark's semi-final exit, the official UEFA website stated - Preben Elkjær, one of the stars of the tournament and probably the last player France would have wanted to face in the final... Won the Balon d'Or Bronze Ball (behind Platini and Tigana) mainly on the back of his Euro performances (and a half season with Verona) which then paved way for his Hellas Verona move. Click here for more info.
Villa - Golden Boot winner and TOTM. Probably Spain's best player in the tournament after Xavi until his injury in the semi finals. He scored the hat-trick in the opening match against a strong Russian side, leading Spain to a 4-1 victory, winning the MOTM. In the second match, he scored the 92nd minute winner against Ibra's Sweden, winning the MOTM once again whilst also vitally allowing Spain to top the group, which allowed them room to rest players for the final group game (with Villa being one of them). In the quarter finals against Italy, he played a prominent role (if memory serves me right) but couldn't score a goal. Still he paved way for Spain's first ever competitive victory over Italy, slotting Spain's first pen in the shootout.
He unfortunately suffered an injury later on in the semi-finals though but had done more than enough to win the Golden Boot and to be regarded as one of the best players of that tournament. Was placed 7th in the 2008 Balon d'Or with Xavi finishing 5th.
There will be a few, who will equate certain players (my back 3 for eg) not winning the tournament or what nots to them not being at their best and likewise a few, who will equate players who were in the tournament winning team as being at their peak or even above it for example. Needless to say, being in the TOTM doesn't full well mean you were at the best either or vice versa (Beckham/Elkjaer for eg).
It just isn't so clear cut and one could even argue, that it is harder to perform well as an individual in a team who are generally underwhelming, as opposed to playing well in a well-oiled tournament winning team. The likes of Maldini, Bergomi, Moore, Ibrahimovic and Stoickhov were excellent for their teams individually although their teammates ultimately let them down. I just don't think it should be held against them (as their individual performances are the prime marker here and we are judging their merits on that alone and not those of their teammates) but rather one should acknowledge the difficulty in performing well in a disappointing team.
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I feel he has the tactical nous and the physical attributes to play such a role and I'm quite a big fan of him, needless to say. This is not the first time I've used him as a wide midfielder of sorts with a tucked in RCB either, in the manager draft he played a similar up-and-down wide role with Vogts as the tucked in RCB. Personally, I think he is in the Czibor, Conti, Nedved, Boniek class (not in quality but in playing style) whereby you could trust their dynamism, relentless running, tactical nous and their immense industry to man a flank as a box to box wide midfielder.
Yes, I was surprised by your decision to field a deep set-up. I was expecting a more evenly poised game in terms of momentum. Whilst it does present you with a nice counter-attacking threat, it could be dangerous to let the likes of Sindelar, Hoeneß, McM and Effenberg have the lion share of the ball esp against 2 fairly limited and rigid side CBs who won't be at their best in a back 3.
I still don't believe Adams and Couto will be able to cope with the pressure that Villa and Elkjaer will place on them though. They were extremely limited on the ball without really possessing a great touch, so to say and could be found wanting on the ball in back 3. Whilst my front trio will look to primarily put pressure on those 2 CBs, they will do it so in a coordinated manner and won't be going for gung-ho Rodgers like pressing tactics which would leave my midfield open. The main intention will be to cut off passing angles, harry them and limit their time on the ball to increase their likelihood of committing errors.
You're exaggerating the effect of your pressing. Adams and Couto may not be the most cultured players around, but they're still professional footballers. They can find Scirea with a simple sideways pass. He can even drop back a little if the others are under so much pressure even the sideways ball is closed off.
Still, you're left with the issue of me getting past that pressure. Your strikers way up the pitch, your defence can't come too far forward or you risk a ball over the top and a race between Kluivert and Moore, and your midfield is left stranded in the middle, stretched extremely thin.
Elkjaer and Villa will put Couto and Adams under pressure. Sindelar will be the spare man who can keep track of Scirea's forward surges. Both your wing-backs will have my wide midfielders ahead of them relative to their positions. Naush and Ocwirk will have to contend with Effenberg and Pluskal before they can start spraying long passes all over the pitch. I don't see how you can establish a numerical superiority or cause any problems breaking through (provided Couto and Adams don't make an error on the ball) and like I've said earlier, it isn't a full on team press but rather just pressing focusing on your potential weak points, namely Couto and Adams.
That is exactly the issue I have with that tactic. You're pressing my centre backs, but you're not backing it up with a full press. You say Effenberg and Pluskal will focus on Nausch and Ocwirk, so you're leaving a big hole in behind those, where Mazzola and Rummenigge will run rampant.
You do not need a full on systematic press to back up 2 players putting pressure on your side centre backs.
Going by your logic
You are pressing Sindelar here with Scirea or one of your CBs but you are not exactly going to 'leave a huge hole behind' where Villa and Elkjaer 'run rampant' and neither do you need a full press to back it up.
Say you regain possession or the ball is in your back line. Villa and Elkjaer will look to apply pressure on Couto and Adams. The best case scenario for your team is they play a simple square ball to either Scirea (who will have Sindelar in his zone and won't be free to burst forward at ease) or to one of your FBs (who will have my wide midfielders to contend with). The worst case would be when they muck up their first touch or misplace a ball which is exactly what I'm hoping to achieve.
Even you can't possibly say Adams or Couto will be gliding past their 'press-ers' or play a 1-2 and break through. So I really don't get how Effenberg and Pluskal will have to cover a lot of space and leave you with dangerous options here? It's not like as though I'm pressing a defense of Scirea-Beckenbauer-O'Shea who are going to leave my pressing players dead in their tracks and are constantly breaking through.
Me. One of my favourite non-Utd players of recent times. And her hopefully:
Why do you dislike him?
Tactical change - Demyanenko comes on for McM.
Hoeneß has more freedom offensively on the right with Bergomi playing as a RCB. Demyanenko provides plenty of width and attacking impetus down the left flank but provides more security and defensive nous whilst being better able to shackle Gerets forays forward.
@Balu
Hoeneß has more freedom offensively on the right with Bergomi playing as a RCB. Demyanenko provides plenty of width and attacking impetus down the left flank but provides more security and defensive nous whilst being better able to shackle Gerets forays forward.
@Balu
Agree with all of these points.
I'm not hugely bothered by McManaman and Hoeneß in those roles due to the quality of Joga's defenders.
I've gone for ctp though by a very slim margin as I prefer his front three, which looks very complimentary.
Edit - I prefer Joga's team with this change
done.
Aye, it was one of the main reasons why I decided to go for industrious wide midfielders instead of wing-backs as I believed the quality of my back 3 could have made me pull off a high risk-high profit move. However, the reception hasn't been all that great
. It is justified to a certain extent as they are up against two top notch wing-backs in Gerets and Lizarazu but I think their attacking out-put (esp since it's been established that I will have control over proceeding here) has been underrated imo.Anyway, with the sub of Demyanenko I don't lose much offensively (some might even rank his wingsmanship and attacking contributions over McM relative to how they rate both of them) and gain so much more defensively. Hoeneß is freed up offensively and is also less burdened defensively on the other flank and if it helps eradicate doubts over whether he could fulfil the requirements of his previous role, then I guess it's not something I mind, although I do believe he was perfect for his former role. Not that he will lose anything in his new role and he will be more prominent in the final third now. Lizarazu and Gerets will also have a harder time on the flanks now, as they square up against the greatest Soviet Union LWB of all time and a pesky (and liberated) Hoeneß who can, on his day, rip FBs a new one - esp on the counter.
Good to know, don't feel compelled to change your vote though as it would be unfair on ctp.
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Agree with these points. Demyanenko was a machine down that flank for Kiev and the USSR.
Good move. I wasn't a huge fan of McManaman on the left side with defensive duties, and giving Hoeness more freedom is a brilliant move. I watched quite a bit of him whilst browsing through Netzer vieos and he was a brilliant player who was at his best attacking the penalty area.
A good debate going on here but I think I'm going for Joga for now.
Oh for feck sake, now I look at Ctp's team and remember that Kluivert is up front. He's a huge pick in the context of this draft. He didn't quite fulfil his massive potential in his overall career but he was brilliant at the Euros. He was one of the first names that I thought of when the draft was announced. I'd have been all over him if we hadn't picked Van Basten.
EDIT: He's up against a formidable backline though and he doesn't really present any unique quality that they'd struggle to deal with imo. I wouldn't fancy Moore beating him in the air but he's got ample support. Maldini and Bergomi's Euro form was good, but how does Moore's stack up? I haven't watched any of his Euros campaign.
EDIT: He's up against a formidable backline though and he doesn't really present any unique quality that they'd struggle to deal with imo. I wouldn't fancy Moore beating him in the air but he's got ample support. Maldini and Bergomi's Euro form was good, but how does Moore's stack up? I haven't watched any of his Euros campaign.
Always great to see some name-calling and mud-slinging every now and then. You guys are too civilised for my liking sometimes.
Of course he did, I'm not disputing that. There was a group of 4 players in that Euro that stood out for me, but Kalle stood out the whole year, dominating both on a club and international level, unlike his competitors.
good. i'll try to analyse it tomorrow, but demyanenko is a great change anywayTactical change - Demyanenko comes on for McM.
Hoeneß has more freedom offensively on the right with Bergomi playing as a RCB. Demyanenko provides plenty of width and attacking impetus down the left flank but provides more security and defensive nous whilst being better able to shackle Gerets forays forward.
@Balu
Absolutely massive swap. Lizarazu was always going to be doing more traditional fullback work but that combination between Gerets and Kalle works beautifully in a way not even Maldini can stop.Tactical change - Demyanenko comes on for McM.
Hoeneß has more freedom offensively on the right with Bergomi playing as a RCB. Demyanenko provides plenty of width and attacking impetus down the left flank but provides more security and defensive nous whilst being better able to shackle Gerets forays forward.
@Balu
Can't believe you had Demyanenko on the bench while Mc Mananananamanaman was prancing around the pitch leaving you brutally exposed.
Both teams are very similarly setup here in a 3-4-1-2 formation. Both managers has executed their idea really well, the only player I didn't fancy too much for the role he was given was McManaman but he's out now.
For me the teams are similar, Rummenigge will make sure CTP has width in his team and Villa/Elkjaer will do exactly the same for Joga and the wide midfield battle will be very even.
The deciding factor for me is that Joga has the best possible 3 man defense that you can have in this draft and nearly any draft. Bergomi is the best RCB in the draft and Maldini is for a draft the best LCB, then Moore who is one of the very best CB's in history.
They have a tough job but the quality and suitability for the role means they'll form a wall defensively. Couto and Adams compared to Maldini/Bergomi is probably the biggest difference on the pitch in terms of quality. Elsewhere it looks very even with Sindelar being a legend of the game.
Really like Kluivert/Rummenigge though what a partnership. Just can't see them breaking down that defensive 3 though consistently enough.
For me the teams are similar, Rummenigge will make sure CTP has width in his team and Villa/Elkjaer will do exactly the same for Joga and the wide midfield battle will be very even.
The deciding factor for me is that Joga has the best possible 3 man defense that you can have in this draft and nearly any draft. Bergomi is the best RCB in the draft and Maldini is for a draft the best LCB, then Moore who is one of the very best CB's in history.
They have a tough job but the quality and suitability for the role means they'll form a wall defensively. Couto and Adams compared to Maldini/Bergomi is probably the biggest difference on the pitch in terms of quality. Elsewhere it looks very even with Sindelar being a legend of the game.
Really like Kluivert/Rummenigge though what a partnership. Just can't see them breaking down that defensive 3 though consistently enough.
I refer you to post 44 above. He had a good tourno individually and England could have very well made the final and won the whole damn thing, had it not been for injuries, tactical blunders by Sir Alf Ramsey and a misfiring English forward line. Still, Moore excelled individually as England came 3rd (their highest position ever in Euros) and had a stormer of a game against the Soviet, a particularly strong team in that era and they had an excellent record in the Euros (From 1960 to 1972 they made 3 finals, could have made the final in '68 had it not been for a coin toss as well) to back it up.
Wow, the slightly change made all the difference for Joga. He walked the game after he subbed Demyanenko in. If I remember correctly ctp was 8-7 in the lead when I went to bed last night .
.Huh, big swing in votes. Congratulations, @Joga Bonito and good luck in the next round!
I'll be in a good mood today regardless, because I just managed to get tickets for the Bayern away game at the last day of the season.
I'll be in a good mood today regardless, because I just managed to get tickets for the Bayern away game at the last day of the season.
It was 9-8 when I logged off with ctp in the lead. All part of the plan Balu. Put in a Space Goat (Bananaman) initially, to cop all the negative scrutiny and then halfway through the match, sub out said space goat and make your team look twice the team that it was initially.Wow, the slightly change made all the difference for Joga. He walked the game after he subbed Demyanenko in. If I remember correctly ctp was 8-7 in the lead when I went to bed last night
On a more serious note, the scoreline is overly harsh on ctp. Should have been much closer and I honestly wouldn't have begrudged him a victory as it really was a fine team with great individuals and tactical chemistry.
Thanks.
Good to know mate. Great game and you really did construct a terrific team.
Bringing in Demyanenko was a very sensible move, not sure why you didn't start with him as he's much more suited in that role, and whatever advantage Macca was giving you in attack would never be appreciated here much.
It is indeed, but your biggest problem was Kalle-Gerets on the break with Bananaman jogging back half-heartedly (in comparison to how Demyanenko would act).
Part of the difference was it was a two-pointer with me. See @Balu? No liar, a two pointer, Preben rules!!!!
Well, why do we dislike anyone we don't know? He's always struck me as a bit of twat, that's all. Probably hugely unfair on the poor bastard, but there it is.
And as a player – well, he was very good, naturally, and I respect that. But for me he wasn't the sort of the player you'd take a shine to – I don't think I can explain it beyond this, it's pretty irrational, as most likes and dislikes in football are at the end of the day.
Fair point!
Oh, all right then. I misunderstood it as you not liking the player (type/quality etc) that he was instead of the individual himself. Anyway, I always found him to be a bit of the reserved type and not the type of character who you'd really take to as a person nor have strong enough feelings to dislike then. I'd admit though, I do find his patch of beard under the lip (does it qualify for a goatee?) a bit annoying.
There you go! That's precisely the sort of thing. I mean, who sports that sort of neither-here-nor-there facial hair? Clearly a cnut.
You'd prefer this then
Christ... The transformation (apparently this was him when he was 19
)
You'd prefer this then
Christ... The transformation (apparently this was him when he was 19
Yeah, that's more like it. Still, pretty cnutish grin – and what's up with that hairline? Nah, he's a congenital cnut, clearly so.I'm with Pat on Villa. He basically dragged Spain to that World Cup in 2010 as their only player to actually have the temerity to score goals.
Ok I give up
Aye – he has that going for him.
To me, though, that Spain side was an absurdity of sorts. Loaded with brilliant players but somehow averse to the idea of, actually, finishing off a match by...scoring.