He should though, if we are trying to replicate a real football games here. Our very own keeper is bound to become our player of the year for the second time - and we are arguing whenever keeper is important in a football game? A great keeper wins you games, it's that simple.
I tried to refresh my memory on Puyol when I considered picking him - haven't watched the games, but the match reports tend to blame him and says that he showed more leadership than the actual defensive qualities.
It's a discussion we've had many times before...and usually ends with no solution. We still haven't found a meaningful way of quantifying GK's impact to this game.
He has not. See my post above.
But we all agree that keepers doesn't get the appreciation they deserve
The point still stands. Puyol is in the company of players who all are considered better (Kaizer, Thuram, Puskas, MvB, Gullit) and GOATs. Not sure if I would classify Puyol as a GOAT though.
Hmm, that's possible. I didn't check his Euro credentials and in my memory he was his usual self in terms of leadership and can't think of any mistakes, at least none that really mattered in the end. Spain didn't concede a goal in the knockout rounds in 2008 after all.
ONLY player quality?Surprising you feel that way Annah!
I'll summarize my advantages over Stain's team for you...
Midfield: I will win the midfield battle due to the below.
Defensive Midfield:
* Zagorakis is against Masopust (who is a class above) and I expect to win that battle consistently in this match. Thuram is tucked in to provide consistent support in the middle.
* Davids is tasked with covering for Zambrotta. With Gullit here, he certainly will be occupied enough and I don't see him lending much of a role in midfield battle up the pitch while doing that.
Attacking Midfield:
As mentioned above, With Maspoust's superiority and Davids being occupied otherwise to consistently participate in midfield upfront, Zidane and more importantly Amancio are going to lack proper support throughout the match. What patchy opportunities that Zidane gets, I have Deschamps who is a master at "snuffing out creativity" there to take care. Even Zidane can't influence the match without support from behind.
Left Wing:
* His best attacking outlet imo. Zambrotta has attacking licence.
To counter this, I have Durkovic occupying Czibor. Durkovic has operated both as RB and as a RCB successfully, so will be perfect in tracking Czibor. I also have Matthaus here who is superb at providing defensive support. I see lots of activity in the match here, but certainly no great advantage there for him. There is also an added advantage to me that Gullit has more space to drift behind Zamabrotta and pull Davids/Puyol wide during quick counters.
Right Wing:
His team has near non-existent presence there. Thuram is tucked in and Zagorakis is in a defensive role as per his OP. With Masopust's superirity, I see me having significant advantage in that wing. As mentioned in DM part, it's my team that owns that flank.
His Defence: My attack will prevail due to below.
* Puyol is a good defender, but certainly is outclassed in this company (Beckenbauer, Thuram, Puskas, Gullit and MvB) here. When surrounded by MvB on one side and Gullit on the other, I certainly see him as the weakest spot in Stain's defence...simply because all rest are a class above.
* I don't see Beckenbauer moving up to play-make. He needs all 3 CB's to concentrate in defence and that still might not be enough.
My defence:
As mentioned above,
* Zidane will not be to his usual tricks simply because he lacks support from behind. Amancio is going to struggle to see much of the ball on the other flank.
* Durkovic has operated both as RB and as a RCB successfully, so will be perfect in tracking Czibor. With Matthaus dropping back, it is as safe as it can get.
The European pedigree of Blanc and Campbell is beyond question and they can handle the lone strike threat from Muller between them.
In 2008, he was not at fault for any of the goals Spain conceded directly.
You take way too many of The Stain's players out of the equation there. Gullit pulling wide means Zambrotta helps out defending him, even if Davids follows, it leaves Puskas and van Basten against Puyol, Beckenbauer and Thuram. Hardly a bad set-up in defense and Gullit isn't your traditional winger who will create countless chances down the wing against two players. Davids certainly is a great fit to help out against Gullit and can match his physicality.
Quintessentially, the midfield battle in that area is between Masopust vs Zagorakis. I certainly see Masopust coming out on top in that. I have a steady supply of attacks coming in from there. Masopust is a fantastic passer of the ball and is capable of making runs himself. With him dominating Zagorakis, who is going to be there stepping in, Thuram or Beckenbauer? They already have Puskas and MvB there. I definitely see goals there.
France 98 (Lizarazu and Thuram), Brazil's magic square (Carlos/Cafu), Germany 96 (Brehme and Berthold), Platini's France of 82...all great teams that played without traditional wingers. It's not like everytime they face a team with wingers, the full back never moves up. We see them contributing to attack almost every match every week. See no reason, it has to be a weakness in my team.
Yes. But it's not as if the keeper here is a mug when the opposition is attacking. He will hold his own when pressed into action.
Wasn't it Ziege/Reuter for Germany 96? The key difference in that side was that they had Sammer at his peak covering for the central defenders. The other teams relies on absolute world class full backs, who in their era were very dominant and are considered among the greater of all time.
Yeah, not Germany 86 as they had a aback 3, but the other examples stand. As for the role of striker in being "their job was to manipulate space for the rest of the team" who better than MvB to do that. He is a complete striker and excellent at holding up and bringing others into attack. And who better 'others' than Puskas and Gullit?
What's wrong with my CB's here? Breitner comfortably makes top tier of all LB's in this draft. Durkovic can hold his own and has Matthaus in a defensive box-to-box for support. I don't expect to attack that route. I have already identified as his best attack rote, so will stick to stalwart defending there.
Puyol is absolutely fine. Someone like Kohler would be more fancy but on a Euro basis they are comparable players. It's a shame Forster is gone but The Stain needed Muller, and Beckenbauer is a great fit with his midfield. It just hasn't improved him defensively IMO.
Aye, you would think that is the one reason he starts ahead of Forster!
To be honest, I don't have a problem with them, I have a problem with EAP's approach of shoving his oldies under the blanket. I want stories, facts, statistics, opinions - not just "he was great, end of" - and if I don't get any, I assume that he sees them as a weakness himself and tries to divert attention from them - something that he does brilliantly, as we all know.
Oh, my. Welcome to Zebec-gate!
Vladimir Durković
Beginnings:
Popularly known as "Dure", Durković, born in current Serbia, was a easily recognizable talent even at early age. He made good impressions in the 2nd division summer camps at young age of 16 and caught the eye of the then Red Star Belgrade coach, Misa Pavic. At 18 he got his first Red Star Jersey in a friendly match against Dinamo, just 22 days after he signed for the club. Though obviously talented, his early days of football was quite unsettling. Shunted between both flanks and played over a variety of positions he managed only 7 games throughout the season. Next year, he played even less with just one single game.
Glory Days:
It was in his 3rd year with the club, that he settled into the Right Back place and a glittering career took off. Red Star during those years was a team with no obvious weaknesses and granite like defence comprising of players like Beara, Stankovic etc. The then 'Technical Director' of the team, Kika Popovic wanted to move Dure to play Right Back, which he refused. After a bit of convincing, Dure switched positions for a final time and the career of one of the best fullbacks was born. Durković in the jersey of Red Star played a total of 405 matches (of which 177 and 19 in the League Cup Yugoslavia) and scored 30 goals (of which seven league).
Playing Style:
For the club, he was for years a pillar of defense, one of the most consistent players who was rarely out of form. He had a uncompromising attitude and played a robust game. Not just talented, he was also very intelligent in reading the game, positioning himself and knew when to defend and when to attack. A natural fighter, he brilliantly balanced his game with stalwart defending and effective runs to join the attack.
Overseas Career:
His first stop in season 1966/67 was the famous German Bundesliga club Borussia Monchengladbach though he only played 10 matches and decided to move to France. He got a call from a famous French first division team AS Saint-Etienne which at that time was in it's peak years. Dure was in fine form and in 3 years with the French team, they won the French championship theice (1968, 1969 and 1970) and French Cup twice (1968 and 1970).
Tragic Death:
After playing a game against FC Sion, Dure was shot by a drunken cop when he was 35yo. Despite surgeries, Dure passed away due to injuries to the stomach caused by the bullets, ending the career of one of the most accomplished football player to come out of Yugoslavia.
Vladimir Durković
Date of birth: 06/11/1937 (died 22/06/1972)
Position: Defender
Djurković excelled as a 22-year-old at the first UEFA European Championship, offering defensive solidity and attacking penetration at right-back. Although Yugoslavia missed out in France, he won a gold medal at the Rome Olympics that September. Djurković played with FK Crvena zvezda before making a name for himself with AS Saint-Étienne, winning three French League titles and the Coupe de France twice. He died tragically when mistakenly shot by a policeman in Sion, Switzerland in June 1972 at the age of 36.
Tbf, on the basis of Euro form Zagorakis deserves to be here and it isn't an unfavourable contest. Although tbf to Masopust, he did win the CEICs, and came in the TOTM in 1960 so I can see him having the edge perhaps, just not consistently winning the battle though or being a class above in terms of Euro performances.
Come on mate
, he has Amancio there of all people. Probably the best RW in this draft imo, in terms of his Euro performances. He, after Suárez, was the best player in the 1964 Euros and it showed when he finished 3rd in the Balon d'Or behind Law and Suárez.Never said otherwise. All I said was he'll lack service from behind him.Come on mate
Oh feck, totally forgot that but you're right. The semifinalists aren't allowed to vote in the other semifinal unless they already lost theirs, so that they can't influence who they have to play in the final. So neither @harms nor you are allowed to vote here. Could you maybe vote for EAP, Joga? So that both your votes nullify each other and the 'wrong' gap in votes won't have an influence on the last hours of the game?
Yeah just read the post above which makes more sense but still, there is Beckenbauer in defense who is brilliant at bringing the ball out of defense and has a cracking pass on him (talk about stating the obvious
), so that mitigates it heavily. Also the likes of Davids-Zago aren't playmakers, yes, but they are comfortable on the ball and good passers who can play direct balls to Amancio but I do get what you are trying to get at.Sure thing. Voted for EAP to balance it out.
Nah, sorry, that's bollocks. He IS a class above, Zagorakis did really well for a team that had defending as their number one mission, but that doesn't put him in the same class as Masopust.
Doesn't look all that to me.Come on mate
That is a valid point indeed and it did aid Zagorakis immensely but it isn't like he is playing in a gung-ho set-up and he isn't on a one-man wall mission here - now that would be overplaying his Player of the Tournament card as it was a team effort rather than one individual carrying the team. Zagorakis is asked to play a fairly disciplined role shielding a defense consisting of the likes of Beckenbauer, Puyol and Thuram whilst having a top notch DM in Davids beside him. Whilst the more expansive set-up (in relative to the Greek one ofc) could diminish his effectiveness, it wouldn't leave him exposed or being consistently outmatched by Masopust here though. It's no slight on Masopust, just think that Zagorakis should get his fair dues for his performances in 2004 and not be portrayed as someone who will consistently come second best throughout their battle. Like I said earlier, I would even give Masopust the edge in this match-up and in general it is a non-contest but in terms of Euro performances the gap shouldn't be as great as it is made to me.
No slight on Zagorakis either, I had Masopust beating Rijkaard regularly in the last match! It is fair to say the setup around Zagorakis here will limit his one-two options more, agreed, although if Thuram tucks in ( seeing as many credit that as a three-man defence + Zambrotta) then Masopust and Breitner will one-two past Zago at ease all game long.That is a valid point indeed and it did aid Zagorakis immensely but it isn't like he is playing in a gung-ho set-up and he isn't on a one-man wall mission here - now that would be overplaying his Player of the Tournament card as it was a team effort rather than one individual carrying the team. Zagorakis is asked to play a fairly disciplined role shielding a defense consisting of the likes of Beckenbauer, Puyol and Thuram whilst having a top notch DM in Davids beside him. Whilst the more expansive set-up (in relative to the Greek one ofc) could diminish his effectiveness, it wouldn't leave him exposed or being consistently outmatched by Masopust here though. It's no slight on Masopust, just think that Zagorakis should get his fair dues for his performances in 2004 and not be portrayed as someone who will consistently come second best throughout their battle. Like I said earlier, I would even give Masopust the edge in this match-up and in general it is a non-contest but in terms of Euro performances the gap shouldn't be as great as it is made to me.
And spoiler that ffs!
That's my take on the midfield battle. It's also the kind of hard-working, grizzly midfield Zidane excelled operating in for club and country, renewing his partnership with Davids behind him. And if he reaches the brilliance of his Euro 2000 form, that could shift the match-up into the Stain's favour.That is a valid point indeed and it did aid Zagorakis immensely but it isn't like he is playing in a gung-ho set-up and he isn't on a one-man wall mission here - now that would be overplaying his Player of the Tournament card as it was a team effort rather than one individual carrying the team. Zagorakis is asked to play a fairly disciplined role shielding a defense consisting of the likes of Beckenbauer, Puyol and Thuram whilst having a top notch DM in Davids beside him. Whilst the more expansive set-up (in relative to the Greek one ofc) could diminish his effectiveness, it wouldn't leave him exposed or being consistently outmatched by Masopust here though. It's no slight on Masopust, just think that Zagorakis should get his fair dues for his performances in 2004 and not be portrayed as someone who will consistently come second best throughout their battle. Like I said earlier, I would even give Masopust the edge in this match-up and in general it is a non-contest but in terms of Euro performances the gap shouldn't be as great as it is made to me.
And spoiler that ffs!
