The extent of Liverpool's lack of success

[TheBiggest]

Gerrard, their club legend, is single handedly responsible for bottling their biggest chance at the league title in a generation. I guarantee that UTD will win the league next before Liverpool do. They are such a mediocre club it's really pathetic. What is even sadder is how they think they're a big club, and seem to think they are in the title race every season.

They were never, and will never be part of a title race as long as they continue to have such a shitty defence and such abysmal depth overall in their squad. Very average players, very average team, and an over rated manager.

Liverpool are nothing to us now; seriously.

Just in the last decade alone, we have won 5 League titles, an FA Cup, won a European Cup and been in three European Cup Finals in total.

In that time, they've won a whatdoyemacallit...a League Cup.

Liverpool are a great club with a rich history, but that's it. We've got an extremely wealthy history and (whatwith being the richest club in the world) a very promising future. Liverpool stagnated, we built for the future. And that fruition is blossoming now. I can't see Liverpool challenging for a title against mega rich United, City or Chelsea in the next decade. The only thing that can get Liverpool's motor running is a takeover by some zillionaire, because they can't compete. Last summer is the prime example, they just can not do it. And, as proven above, they haven't done it for so long. The only thing that makes Liverpool significant is their history.

 

[giorno]

Actually they could, you know. All they need to do is hire every youth coach, scout, director, etc from borussia dortmund/juventus/patetico madrid

 

[John_Jensen]

Let's not give Ferguson too much credit? Ha ha. Hilarity.

Liverpool were very high on their perch in 1990 having won 18 League Titles, by far the greatest record in England. That was one helluva perch to be on. Fergie sat out to remove them from it, although to be fair it was going to be pretty darn impossible. United only had 7 league titles then, a full eleven behind Liverpool. Fast forward to 22years later; United 20 - 18 Liverpool. Battered off your perch by the great one. Unbelievable.

And let's get this right; this happened because United got their managerial call right in 1986 while Liverpool got their's terribly wrong a few months earlier. One manager looked to the future, the other one was still stuck in the past.

And it is for that reason that United ended up becoming the richest and most successful sporting brand in the whole world (now reported to be valued at 4BILLION) while Liverpool stagnated into mediocrity by their standards. Liverpool are valued at around 800million, that's about the same as some company pay Manchester United to make their shirts. Ha ha.

You can bet your bottom dollar Fergie knocked Liverpool right off their perch, he battered them off it in embarrassing style.

There are enough things to give him credit for, giving him credit for Liverpools demise is not one of them. When Liverpool were winning their last title Ferguson, as stated, was scrabbling for the cup to try to save his job. He finished 5 points above relegation that season, an eye watering 31 points behind champions Liverpool.

The Liverpool rot had already set in though. It's akin to saying Jose Mourinho came back from Spain and knocked United off their perch by winning the league in 2015. The truth being that United's squad in was in need of a serious overhall, similar to Liverpool back then.

And what finished Dalglish at Liverpool was the fallout and stress from the Hillsbourough disaster, not Alex Ferguson, who at the time was an afterthought.

But yeah, it was Alex Ferguson cos he looked forward and Dalglish looked back. Jesus fecking Christ

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Well, they are a mid-table club.

Their fans like to believe they're up there with the likes of United and Chelsea, but they aren't.... Not even close. I cringe every time they even mention themselves in the same sentence as those two clubs. As if they're some European giant or something... You haven't won the league in 27 years ffs.

They thought they were gonna win the league this season cause Leicester managed it last season... guess what? Your squad is shite. You had a good run of form but as I predicted a few months back, the energy ran out around Christmas time and your season is now falling apart and Klopp is having a meltdown over it. Their entire existence revolves around being jealous of Man United... it's actually quite pathetic.

To answer your question OP, they're just serial bottlers. Thats all it is. They've failed to evolve as a football club since the 80s. They've had some great players over the years but they could never hang onto them because Liverpool is not an "Elite" club like Madrid, Barca, Bayern, United, etc... They have good history but so do Nottingham Forest, Leeds, Celtic, etc... In that respect, I suppose they are a "big" club. But what world class player is dying to play for a team like that?

To be fair to Liverpool...their success in England far outweighs anything achieved by Leeds United or Nottingham Forest.

They were successful in the 1960's, 1970', 1980's and afterwards.

They are about equal in trophies to United depending on what you count or don't count.

Success goes in cycles and from 1968 to 1982 we only won 1 trophy. That's 14 years with one FA Cup success.

Having said all that...nice to see them struggling!

Edit: Those saying that Robson wouldn't get into the Liverpool team of 1970's and 1980's are on drugs.

In that period their midfielders were Souness, Case, McDermott, Wark, McDonald, Johnston, McMahon, Whelan, Molby and Sammy Lee.

Shit...Robson would walk over most of them.

 

[Cantona_Forever]

There are enough things to give him credit for, giving him credit for Liverpools demise is not one of them. When Liverpool were winning their last title Ferguson, as stated, was scrabbling for the cup to try to save his job. He finished 5 points above relegation that season, an eye watering 31 points behind champions Liverpool.

And why the club didn't sack him? Because people at the club knew he worked to rebuilding from within. His works surely bore fruits a few season later and we never look back since.

 

[John_Jensen]

And why the club didn't sack him? Because people at the club knew he worked to rebuilding from within. His works surely bore fruits a few season later and we never look back since.

They did bear fruit and you didn't look back but without the cup in 1990 he was gone. The greatest manager in British history but lets not rewrite history to big the man up even more, it's unnecessary.

 

[mitchmouse]

I was around when Liverpool were winning everything in the 70's and 80's and their fans were the most obnoxious wankers on the planet. Im with you, nothing more enjoyable than watching them fail.

took the words right out of my mouth

 

[AXVnee7]

I was around when Liverpool were winning everything in the 70's and 80's and their fans were the most obnoxious wankers on the planet. Im with you, nothing more enjoyable than watching them fail.

Were? Still are!

 

[Cantona_Forever]

but without the cup in 1990 he was gone.

He wouldn't be gone. That was just a myth, dispelled by people at the club later. Sure, fans wanted him gone but never did the board. He got full support from the club even if we win nothing that year.
"That cup saved him" is just a nice story from media.

(Jesus, why did I have this 5 post limit? The response from @John_Jensen is so silly & awful he resorted to speculating and twisting the truth ("the club turned against him" - you have no idea how close Ferguson to Sir Matt and Sir Bobby at the time, it shows you are clueless) but I can't post anymore because of post limitation. Grrrr...)

 

[John_Jensen]

He wouldn't be gone. That was just a myth, dispelled by people at the club later. Sure, fans wanted him gone but never did the board. He got full support from the club even if we win nothing that year.

No, the myth perpetuated by those within the club who didn't want to look ridiculous is the one where they say they were always with him. Do you expect anyone to come out and say 'Yeah, we were about to sack Ferguson." Do you really expect them to say that or to say "We were always behind him, we always believed"?

Nonsense, he'd spent a fortune, after 4 years without a sniff of a trophy the league form was so abysmal there were relegation fears, the board were turning against him, the fans were turning against him. He was gone without that FA Cup of 1990.

 

[krazyrobus]

What amazes me about their lack of success is this myth that SAF controlled the league and the refs. Even more amazing is that my brother and brother-in-law both perpetuate this myth, both coming from radically different walks of life and yet somehow I have this misfortune of being related to Liverpool fans.

Every time I ask them how he did it, I can't get a definitive answer. Is it money? Chelsea/City have more of it. If it's with mafia style gangs. It's hard to imagine other billionaires not constructing their own.

Also amazing is that not a single person, over his 40/50 years of management, has ever published an expose, or written a book about it, even though there would be a gold mine in that.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

A few mentions of Liverpool's collapse in 2014 & rightly so

2009 was pretty good too...

Benitez's rant in January, we were going for 18 titles to match them: no doubt good ol' Rafa would have been using that as major motivation whilst sticking pins in his voodoo doll of SAF in the LFC dressing room before games.

The 1-4 at OT, they "got the scent" as SAF later phrased it...

...then Machedas last gasp goal vs Villa.

18 all despite your very best efforts ya cnuts

18 all? Or at that point?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

There are enough things to give him credit for, giving him credit for Liverpools demise is not one of them. When Liverpool were winning their last title Ferguson, as stated, was scrabbling for the cup to try to save his job. He finished 5 points above relegation that season, an eye watering 31 points behind champions Liverpool.

The Liverpool rot had already set in though. It's akin to saying Jose Mourinho came back from Spain and knocked United off their perch by winning the league in 2015. The truth being that United's squad in was in need of a serious overhall, similar to Liverpool back then.

And what finished Dalglish at Liverpool was the fallout and stress from the Hillsbourough disaster, not Alex Ferguson, who at the time was an afterthought.

But yeah, it was Alex Ferguson cos he looked forward and Dalglish looked back. Jesus fecking Christ

Give up son, your having a mare

 

[John_Jensen]

Give up son, your having a mare

Stock quote reply cos you don't know what you're talking about? Good man.

 

[Offside]

You forget how sweet 2009 was aswell. Everyone talks about the pure poetry of them fecking up in 2014, but 2009 was brilliant.

Them beating us 4-1 at Old Trafford and acting like they had already won the league. I remember them beating Villa 5-0 the week after and Real Madrid 4-0 the week before. The way the fans were during the Villa game was similar to the Leicester fans when they had actually won the league last season, cheering every pass etc.

Their moronic fans thought that because they got a scent of the title it was theirs already. Singing "Fergie's cracking up" and "Na-na-nineteen". One of the greatest days at OT ever when Macheda scored that last minute goal. The comeback against Spurs all but killed them and I remember a Liverpool fan on Talkshte saying that Fergie had 100% payed Howard Webb to give that first dodgy penalty that started the comeback. Absolutely quality.

They have fecked up at winning major trophies countless times. Last season losing 2 finals!

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Stock quote reply cos you don't know what you're talking about? Good man.

A "stock quote" is more than adequate for the drivel your coming out with. It doesn't warrant being dignified with anything more than that.

 

[John_Jensen]

A "stock quote" is more than adequate for the drivel your coming out with. It doesn't warrant being dignified with anything more than that.

Yeah, you don't have a clue what you're talking about so you won't bother. Transparent. Run along now!

 

[djmanj]

When does it end? Are Leeds a bigger club than Chelsea? What about Celtic, Nottingham Forest, West Ham, etc?

Those teams are known for their past success over 30 years ago... and they still have a lot of fans to this day. I guess that outweighs Chelsea's dominance in the here and now? Fact is, United, Chelsea and City are the "big" teams in the PL cause they're the ones that attract the big players and win the trophies. Arsenal would be next...

How is City bigger than Arsenal?

 

[giorno]

How is City bigger than Arsenal?

money

 

[djmanj]

money

So that makes them one of the big teams in PL and not Arsenal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#2015.E2.80.9316

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes'_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs

In terms of Money, Arsenal is up there. If they dont want to spend it then its their problem.

Btw, you dont decide the big clubs of PL in purely money terms. There are other factors too. Even if it was just money then Arsenal would be up there.

 

[Jaybomb]

How is City bigger than Arsenal?

Better players and more success recently. Its that simple.

 

[djmanj]

Better players and more success recently. Its that simple.

By that logic City is bigger than Utd.

Also, is their aging squad that better than Arsenal?

Edit: Let us consider the last 3 years as a barometer for success/big club status

Manchester United League finishes

Season League Pos
2016/2017 Premier League 6*
2015/2016 Premier League 5
2014/2015 Premier League 4
2013/2014 Premier League 7

Is this a big club for you?


Btw, We may be going off topic. Back on track

 

[Thunderhead]

So that makes them one of the big teams in PL and not Arsenal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#2015.E2.80.9316

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes'_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs

In terms of Money, Arsenal is up there. If they dont want to spend it then its their problem.

Btw, you dont decide the big clubs of PL in purely money terms. There are other factors too. Even if it was just money then Arsenal would be up there.

You're quite right, for me winning stuff and the record over a decade or so is the number 1 criteria in deciding big clubs. I'd say at the moment Arsenal and Liverpool are still bigger than city but in 10 years time if neither has won the league in that time and city have another 2 or 3 championships then they could quite rightly claim to be bigger.

 

[Jaybomb]

By that logic City is bigger than Utd.

Also, is their aging squad that better than Arsenal?

How?

Arsenal... 3 PLs. Last in 2004.
Man City 2 PLs in 2012 and 2014.
Man Utd... 13 PLs. Last in 2013.

We're not going back to the Golden age here. Those are recent achievements. And United have won the FA Cup last season so its not like we're starving of success like Liverpool are.

 

[Kentonio]

at the idea Chelsea are a level above Liverpool in the grand scheme of things.

Sure, why would multiple league wins, a Champions league win and countless cup wins possible make a team a level above one who won 1 League cup in recent memory..

 

[Strachans Cigar]

18 all? Or at that point?

No mate, at that point (2009)

My point is Liverpool & Benitez would have LOVED IT Keegan style if they had managed to make it 19-17 in their favour.

That 1-4 result at OT was pretty good in retrospect. Because it gave them hope & prolonged their agony. Muhahahahaha.

 

[Treble_Winning]

Liverpool fans claiming that they are a big club is seriously lame. They have won ZERO PL titles. None. Which means that they have had negligible impact on modern football. Even if you include their CL win in 2005 (and even if you consider a CL title to b roughly equivalent to two PL titles) they have still won less overall than us, Chelsea, City or even Arsenal in the modern era. Even Blackburn have got a PL title FFS.

Claiming that Liverpool are still a powerful and influential football club is like claiming that France is still one of the world's military superpowers because, you know, Napoleón and all that. They used to have all these African and Caribbean colonies too. Never mind that they have been decisively thrashed in all wars in the modern era, they are still a global superpower equivalent to the US, China and Russia!!!!

 

[Treble_Winning]

No mate, at that point (2009)

My point is Liverpool & Benitez would have LOVED IT Keegan style if they had managed to make it 19-17 in their favour.

That 1-4 result at OT was pretty good in retrospect. Because it gave them hope & prolonged their agony. Muhahahahaha.

I'm pretty much willing to guarantee that Liverpool will not win their next league title before UTD do so. I made this assertion earlier in the season and was called "delusional" but it is a fact that UTD are a club on the rise and Liverpool are a club in decline. I'm very certain we will finish above them this season and next season too. In fact Liverpool are a lot closer to mid table obscurity than they are to winning the league - they are the weakest out of the so called top six sides, and really out of those sides currently the only genuine "TOP" clubs are UTD, Chelsea and Man City with Arsenal in the tier below.

 

[LFC-Fans]

Liverpool fans claiming that they are a big club is seriously lame. They have won ZERO PL titles. None. Which means that they have had negligible impact on modern football. Even if you include their CL win in 2005 (and even if you consider a CL title to b roughly equivalent to two PL titles) they have still won less overall than us, Chelsea, City or even Arsenal in the modern era. Even Blackburn have got a PL title FFS.

Claiming that Liverpool are still a powerful and influential football club is like claiming that France is still one of the world's military superpowers because, you know, Napoleón and all that. They used to have all these African and Caribbean colonies too. Never mind that they have been decisively thrashed in all wars in the modern era, they are still a global superpower equivalent to the US, China and Russia!!!!

We aren't AS big as we once were. But we still are a big club. In fact the only thing that could make us no longer a big club is if we got relegated. Think Leeds.

Depends what you define as a BIG club as well, financially and fan base wise we are a big club still.

 

[El Zoido]

I still think they'll be close to the league title, especially with nothing else to play for.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

No mate, at that point (2009)

My point is Liverpool & Benitez would have LOVED IT Keegan style if they had managed to make it 19-17 in their favour.

That 1-4 result at OT was pretty good in retrospect. Because it gave them hope & prolonged their agony. Muhahahahaha.

Muwhahahhah excellent Smithers...

I am also revelling in the fact they were hoping we would be dumped out of the cup today to as some sort of solace for them

 

[EyeInTheSky]

How is City bigger than Arsenal?

Purchasing power is the only thing I can think of

 

[JohnnyKills]

And what finished Dalglish at Liverpool was the fallout and stress from the Hillsbourough disaster, not Alex Ferguson, who at the time was an afterthought.

But yeah, it was Alex Ferguson cos he looked forward and Dalglish looked back. Jesus fecking Christ

This 100%.

Hillsborough put Liverpool in a kind of stasis. While the other clubs modernised and got more commercial, they were still dealing with the fallout from Hillsborough. They clung to their tradition as a form of coping mechanism, instead of adapting. It felt like they were afraid to evolve from a family-run club into a modern commercial identity for fear of being crass and disrespectful to those who died (that's always been my reading anyway, maybe liverpool fans can put me right).

Ferguson would have turned United into a superclub regardless, but maybe we'd have been in a duopoly with Liverpool rather than Arsenal and, more recently, Chelsea.

 

[Bwuk]

There next 7 games...

Chelsea (H)
Hull (A)
Spurs (H)
Leicester (A)
Arsenal (H)
Burnley (H)
Man City (A)

Not a easy run, especially considering they are out of form and don't have any cup games to try and build form.

Whereas our next 7 in the league (as we are still in cups...)

Hull (H)
Leicester (A)
Watford (H)
Bournemouth (H)
Southampton (A)
Middlesbrough (A)
West Brom (H)

I would say we have a easier run in, and I fancy us to finish ahead of them this season, and we still have a chance at 3 cup competitions.

For all Liverpools talk this season, they'll end it with hee haw to show for it.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Liverpool fans claiming that they are a big club is seriously lame. They have won ZERO PL titles. None. Which means that they have had negligible impact on modern football. Even if you include their CL win in 2005 (and even if you consider a CL title to b roughly equivalent to two PL titles) they have still won less overall than us, Chelsea, City or even Arsenal in the modern era. Even Blackburn have got a PL title FFS.

Claiming that Liverpool are still a powerful and influential football club is like claiming that France is still one of the world's military superpowers because, you know, Napoleón and all that. They used to have all these African and Caribbean colonies too. Never mind that they have been decisively thrashed in all wars in the modern era, they are still a global superpower equivalent to the US, China and Russia!!!!

Think they are the second biggest club behind us in terms of their international standing and the size of their fanbase. That may change soon though - young people all over the world grew up supporting Liverpool in the 70s and 80s but their support base will thin out the longer they go without winning again.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Robson wasn't a good enough passer to get into that Liverpool side, who were one of the best ever club sides, who were not given their props due to the European ban. They would of picked up more European cups, they'd have walked it 87/88. Their 1 touch football was punch perfect, while you lot played kick and run. So did England with Robson and co.

United would usually play liverpool off the park in the early to mid 80s, and Robson at the age of 34 put on one of the greatest passing exhibitions I've ever seen against Barcelona in the 91 Cup winners cup final.

 

[Cantona_Forever]

No, the myth perpetuated by those within the club who didn't want to look ridiculous is the one where they say they were always with him. Do you expect anyone to come out and say 'Yeah, we were about to sack Ferguson." Do you really expect them to say that or to say "We were always behind him, we always believed"?

Nonsense, he'd spent a fortune, after 4 years without a sniff of a trophy the league form was so abysmal there were relegation fears, the board were turning against him, the fans were turning against him. He was gone without that FA Cup of 1990.

When you resort to speculation and twisting the truth, it won't worth my time anymore. There's not one single displeasure comment from the board then because they knew what SAF did behind the scene unlike fans who only know result on the pitch. Anyone who's accustomed to what's going on at the time will know you're clueless. @EyeInTheSky is right. People like you won't worth having a serious discussion with, so goodbye.

 

[GaryLifo]

I think there's a distinction between certain clubs that are 'Historically big' and those that are perhaps 'currently big'

Some clubs can be both e.g. United & Arsenal are both historically and currently 'big clubs'. (In Europe - Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Juve, Porto)

Historically big clubs (but not currently big) = Liverpool, Spurs, Everton. (also e.g. in Europe - Benfica, Sporting, Ajax, PSV, AC Milan, Inter, Marseilles)

Currently big clubs = City and Chelsea (In Europe - PSG, Monaco, Dortmund)

My examples are not exhaustive, but just to give an idea of how I've categorised it. Any club not listed is just because I couldn't think of them as I was typing this post. I'll also point out that I see Spurs and Liverpool with the potential to be currently big if they managed to have a few years of success close together.

 

[Treble_Winning]

It is a joke that Liverpool are claiming to be a big club and still considering themselves as a big club when they're actually pretty close to being mid table dross!!

Big clubs attract high quality players. Big clubs compete for trophies. Liverpool doesn't do either of these. It has been 27 years since Liverpool won a league title and they have won zero titles in the PL era - even Blackburn and Leicester have won it!

Also, never mind the fact that they have never won it - they've not even been in contention for it save for 2-3 exceptionally good seasons. UTD have been in contention every single season even if they have not won it, thus Liverpool are really just a bunch of small timers harking back to the glory days.

It is much like France and Portugal claiming to be military powers (and "bigger" than the US, China and Russia), or Yahoo claiming to be "bigger" than Apple, Google and Facebook. Ludicrous and completely out of touch with reality! And frankly pathetic!!

 

[balaks]

It is a joke that Liverpool are claiming to be a big club and still considering themselves as a big club when they're actually pretty close to being mid table dross!!

Big clubs attract high quality players. Big clubs compete for trophies. Liverpool doesn't do either of these. It has been 27 years since Liverpool won a league title and they have won zero titles in the PL era - even Blackburn and Leicester have won it!

Also, never mind the fact that they have never won it - they've not even been in contention for it save for 2-3 exceptionally good seasons. UTD have been in contention every single season even if they have not won it, thus Liverpool are really just a bunch of small timers harking back to the glory days.

It is much like France and Portugal claiming to be military powers (and "bigger" than the US, China and Russia), or Yahoo claiming to be "bigger" than Apple, Google and Facebook. Ludicrous and completely out of touch with reality! And frankly pathetic!!

You tell em! Although to be fair, in the grand scheme of things Liverpool are a massive club. They, along with Utd are the biggest and most well supported English clubs in the world. As hard to believe as it is, it is a fact.