No we don't. Klopp & Poch will ultimately be judged on what they do in the PL. Any cups won will be a bonus. & we've already ascertained, & agreed, that Mourinho will face the chop if he doesn't improve on United's current PL form. Club owners tend to have different priorities to the fans, that's why managers often field weaker sides in cup competitions.
The extent of Liverpool's lack of success
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redman5
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You're not allowed to talk about money, net-spend, etc on here pal. Oh, you're a United fan. Carry on then.I sincerely couldn't disagree more. I think Liverpool are in vast danger of going through a spell more barren than the past 11-years. The problem is money, it really is Liverpool just don't have the right owners to compete at the top level. When you think of the funds United/City and Chelsea have, it would take a near miracle for any team other than those three to win titles over the next decade. Yes, Liverpool/Spurs and Arsenal are all capable of finishing above any one of those teams, maybe on a good year (like Spurs this year), a team could finish above two of them; but for a side to finish above ALL THREE of the big spenders is not likely at all.
The net spend at Anfield since FSG came in is very low in comparison to other sides in the Premier League. Liverpool fans seem quite excited that they have Klopp at the club, but Klopp? Yes, he has had a lot of ups (as well as downs as a manager) and he is quite an exciting coach. But United have Mouirnho, City have Guardiola, Chelsea have Conte...they've all had more successful managerial careers to Klopp, so to be excited about Klopp clearly isn't enough to ensure Liverpool can finish above these sides over the next number of years. I think they will spend this summer, but it will be pittance compared to the clubs around them.
It's more difficult now for Liverpool to win the EPL title than at any point in the history of the EPL. They've been unlucky in that they've been sold twice this century, but on both occasions the wrong men bought the club...They are not progressing. They might get fortunate and win a cup or two over the next decade, but it won;t be an improvement on the last decade.
Peanut Butter
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Yes you do. The fans want trophies and success, not plodding along year after year. Unless you're happy with 4th once every few seasons and if so, great! Just shows how far you lot have fallen.No we don't. Klopp & Poch will ultimately be judged on what they do in the PL. Any cups won will be a bonus. & we've already ascertained, & agreed, that Mourinho will face the chop if he doesn't improve on United's current PL form. Club owners tend to have different priorities to the fans, that's why managers often field weaker sides in cup competitions.
redman5
New Member
You do realize we sacked the last manager to win us a trophy. Sacked because he didn't make any progress in the league. It doesn't matter what the fans want, if a manager fails to meet the required standards league-wise he'll be a goner. & that certainly includes Jose.Yes you do. The fans want trophies and success, not plodding along year after year. Unless you're happy with 4th once every few seasons and if so, great! Just shows how far you lot have fallen.
EyeInTheSky
Full Member
Who would have thought that Peanut Butter could be so delicious!Yes you do. The fans want trophies and success, not plodding along year after year. Unless you're happy with 4th once every few seasons and if so, great! Just shows how far you lot have fallen.
EyeInTheSky
Full Member
What are those exactly?You do realize we sacked the last manager to win us a trophy. Sacked because he didn't make any progress in the league. It doesn't matter what the fans want, if a manager fails to meet the required standards league-wise he'll be a goner. & that certainly includes Jose.
Next season will be big for all of the top six, but in particular for City, Liverpool and Spurs. For any of them to have another trophyless season, it'd be seen as a failure and - in the case of Liverpool and Spurs - could end up with some of their best players leaving.
AR87
Full Member
I think FSG will loosen the purse strings now. They've had zero issue spending with the Red Sox when they've been in position to push on and compete for a title in MLB, but have cut payroll when it's been out of the question. With Klopp having provided a platform for CL and having a more proven pedigree than Brendan I expect that the owners will allocate a larger transfer kitty moving forward than we've seen. Not on par with United, City and Chelsea but more than Tottenham and at least on par, if not more, than Arsenal.hey've been unlucky in that they've been sold twice this century, but on both occasions the wrong men bought the club
redman5
New Member
Depends on the club I suppose. Would Mourinho still keep his job if United won both domestic cups next season but failed to qualify for the CL ? I don't think he would. I'm not so sure Klopp would either. The league table doesn't lie does it ? If you finish 1st then you're the best in England. If you finish 6th then you're the 6th best. Not even challenging for the 'best' is not something a mega-rich club like United would be too happy to put up for too long I'd imagine.What are those exactly?
Rubbish. Football is about winning cups. In Spurs finish 2nd for the next 4 seasons and win nothing they will be knows in later years as the maybe club. If they finish 4th/5th every season and win the FA Cup every year it would be looked back on as a golden era.No we don't. Klopp & Poch will ultimately be judged on what they do in the PL. Any cups won will be a bonus. & we've already ascertained, & agreed, that Mourinho will face the chop if he doesn't improve on United's current PL form. Club owners tend to have different priorities to the fans, that's why managers often field weaker sides in cup competitions.
The fact that hasn't been mentioned in this thread also is that Liverpool have 1 League Cup to their name but they have also only finished in the top 4 twice in 8 years and have only finished in the top 2 twice in 15 years. Their league positions have also been utter wank. They are basically just a spent force on most levels.
Fener1907
Full Member
Sounds like rubbish to make Spurs and Liverpool fans feel better about their lack of silverware. Mourinho undoubtedly does have to improve that league position, but it's telling that what you consider "bonuses" were enough to appease United fans in a season they finished sixth, especially since winning one of those gave United what Spurs and Liverpool valued by finishing where they did (at least Spurs fans can also claim they had a title shot). Albeit not the most prestigious, United fans saw their team do what fans of every club want - they won. I dare any fan outside of a few elite clubs to claim that they'd turn their nose up at our season.No we don't. Klopp & Poch will ultimately be judged on what they do in the PL. Any cups won will be a bonus. & we've already ascertained, & agreed, that Mourinho will face the chop if he doesn't improve on United's current PL form. Club owners tend to have different priorities to the fans, that's why managers often field weaker sides in cup competitions.
Besides, let's look at the reality of your league position - you're hardly a country mile ahead to be so content that United are behind and winning trophies. I might understand if United were comfortably mid-table and showing few signs of improving, except those two trophies and league position are indicative of a side on the up. I'd actually be more concerned that a rival edged ahead in terms of being the most successful club and had a renewed hunger and determination for better things. If somebody wants to claim otherwise about United's season, more the fool them.
redman5
New Member
So you reckon 2 domestic trophies & no CL football will keep Mourinho in a job then ? Winning trophies is great, I wouldn't argue with that. But I'm speaking from the heart like every other supporter. The one's who run the club think differently. & ultimately they're the ones who really matter.Rubbish. Football is about winning cups. In Spurs finish 2nd for the next 4 seasons and win nothing they will be knows in later years as the maybe club. If they finish 4th/5th every season and win the FA Cup every year it would be looked back on as a golden era.
The fact that hasn't been mentioned in this thread also is that Liverpool have 1 League Cup to their name but they have also only finished in the top 4 twice in 8 years and have only finished in the top 2 twice in 15 years. Their league positions have also been utter wank. They are basically just a spent force on most levels.
Skills
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Just 4th next season, no trophies would get him sacked.So you reckon 2 domestic trophies & no CL football will keep Mourinho in a job then ? Winning trophies is great, I wouldn't argue with that. But I'm speaking from the heart like every other supporter. The one's who run the club think differently. & ultimately they're the ones who really matter.
redman5
New Member
We've finished above you 2 out of the last 4 seasons, & even put in a title challenge. You've been less than ordinary then since the great man called it a day if you think our league form is wank.Rubbish. Football is about winning cups. In Spurs finish 2nd for the next 4 seasons and win nothing they will be knows in later years as the maybe club. If they finish 4th/5th every season and win the FA Cup every year it would be looked back on as a golden era.
The fact that hasn't been mentioned in this thread also is that Liverpool have 1 League Cup to their name but they have also only finished in the top 4 twice in 8 years and have only finished in the top 2 twice in 15 years. Their league positions have also been utter wank. They are basically just a spent force on most levels.
You're right that Champions League Football is seen as so important, but it shouldn't be massively. If the Europa League wasn't such a slog a team like Arsenal should be excited about going into it - more chance of winning a European trophy. You don't get anything for finishing 4th and the obsession is pretty embarrassing.So you reckon 2 domestic trophies & no CL football will keep Mourinho in a job then ? Winning trophies is great, I wouldn't argue with that. But I'm speaking from the heart like every other supporter. The one's who run the club think differently. & ultimately they're the ones who really matter.
Also - if you're a big club like us Champions League barely even determines the quality of player you sign.
Its's nice to be at the top table and we wouldn't be a biog club for long if we kept on missing out, but I'd take 2 trophies and qualification over finishing 2nd and winning nothing. Certainly over 4th and winning nothing again! 1st is the only truly decent league position there is..if you aren't going to get that you should look at other trophies.
redman5
New Member
Finishing 4th for us is seen as progression regardless of what we do in the CL - unless we win it of course - Not finishing in the top 4 next season will be regression, even if we do win a domestic cup.You're right that Champions League Football is seen as so important, but it shouldn't be massively. If the Europa League wasn't such a slog a team like Arsenal should be excited about going into it - more chance of winning a European trophy. You don't get anything for finishing 4th and the obsession is pretty embarrassing.
welshmanc75
Full Member
Winning trophies becomes a habit even if they are 'just' the cups. The PL is now at it's most competitive thats it's ever been and when you see United, City and Chelsea all rumoured to be spending £200m each and Liverpool 'only' spending £100m, despite the respective league positions I would still say the Liverpool squad is the weakest of the top 6 (your starting 11 clearly much stronger) and needs more investment to cope with the added European football.So you reckon 2 domestic trophies & no CL football will keep Mourinho in a job then ? Winning trophies is great, I wouldn't argue with that. But I'm speaking from the heart like every other supporter. The one's who run the club think differently. & ultimately they're the ones who really matter.
I think Liverpool and Spurs might be content with just another top 4 finish. Those two are aiming to be the new Arsenal in terms of consistent CL qualification. Trophies probably matter to the fans but not so much to their boards. Players might leave but that has as much to do with the big clubs calling and money then winning a cup.Next season will be big for all of the top six, but in particular for City, Liverpool and Spurs. For any of them to have another trophyless season, it'd be seen as a failure and - in the case of Liverpool and Spurs - could end up with some of their best players leaving.
City need a big season especially after what they will probably spend this summer. League title or a deep CL run.
I get where you're coming from but you've finished top 4 5 times in the last 10 years and kept falling out and didn't buy anyone decent when you came 2nd. True progression would be winning things again. But yeah I know what you mean. If you can start solidly getting top 4 you can start buying better players again and then the trophies may follow. But the OP deals with 2006-2010 where they were always got top 4 and still won feck all. The extent of Liverpool's lack of success is crazy.Finishing 4th for us is seen as progression regardless of what we do in the CL - unless we win it of course - Not finishing in the top 4 next season will be regression, even if we do win a domestic cup.
Exactly. It's justified when it's about those gifted money by a new owner using the club as their toy, but not when it's earned. And specially not when it's both earned and used to keep up with those toy clubs.The money point they like to bring up always sounds bitter. United generated and earned the revenue and are entitled to spend what they want. It just sounds like jealousy, Liverpool need to cling to any excuse they can for there failings. The delusion is strong..
redman5
New Member
I think it's a valid point regarding our lack of consistency in our league positions at the end of each season. I think it's only been once in 20 odd years have we progressed for 2 seasons on the bounce - 2012 - 8th - 2013 - 6th - 2014 - 2nd - for the rest of the time it's been one step forward, & one step (sometimes more) back. But we have another newish manager now. One with a big reputation. So we have to hope he can succeed where so many have failed. However, I don't believe for one minute that finishing regularly in the top 4 will be enough to satisfy the fans, or the owners. I'd like to think their ambition runs deeper than that & that they see it as a platform to build upon rather than a job well done.I get where you're coming from but you've finished top 4 5 times in the last 10 years and kept falling out and didn't buy anyone decent when you came 2nd. True progression would be winning things again. But yeah I know what you mean. If you can start solidly getting top 4 you can start buying better players again and then the trophies may follow. But the OP deals with 2006-2010 where they were always got top 4 and still won feck all. The extent of Liverpool's lack of success is crazy.
RW2
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Hope Liverpool draw Hoffenheim in their CL qualifier cos whoever draws them is in for two tough matches
redman5
New Member
The thing with cups is that quite often they don't really represent a true picture of a team/manger's overall quality. Luck plays a major part in cup competitions. Opponents, home-draws, quality of side you play in the semi-finals/final etc. Back in 1992 we won the FA Cup with Graham Souness (of all people) as manager. During our run we only played one side from the same division as ourselves, & that was Aston Villa at home in the quarter finals. The rest, including the final against Sunderland, were against lower league opposition. So whilst it was classed as a successful season, it didn't show that we were actually in decline. 9 years later in 2001 we won 3 trophies, & luck once again played a big part. Weak opponents in the League Cup & UEFA Cup finals. & Michael Owen saving our skins after we'd been outplayed by Arsenal in the FA Cup final. It didn't prove to be a springboard for the club because Houllier was sacked 3 years later. Luck has gone against us in recent seasons. The last 3 opponents we've faced in finals have been Chelsea in the 2012 FA Cup. Man City in the 2016 League Cup. & Seville in the 2016 Europa League Cup. That compares to Crystal Palace, Southampton, & Ajax for United's last 3 cup finals. So us only winning 1 cup in 11 seasons doesn't tell the full story. Arsenal hadn't won a single trophy in 9 years, yet they now stand a good chance of making it 3 in 4, or is it 5, years.Winning trophies becomes a habit even if they are 'just' the cups. The PL is now at it's most competitive thats it's ever been and when you see United, City and Chelsea all rumoured to be spending £200m each and Liverpool 'only' spending £100m, despite the respective league positions I would still say the Liverpool squad is the weakest of the top 6 (your starting 11 clearly much stronger) and needs more investment to cope with the added European football.
Djemba-Djemba
Full Member
You're trying to make it sound like we were lucky to have easier opposition in the finals but it's not as simple as that.The thing with cups is that quite often they don't really represent a true picture of a team/manger's overall quality. Luck plays a major part in cup competitions. Opponents, home-draws, quality of side you play in the semi-finals/final etc. Back in 1992 we won the FA Cup with Graham Souness (of all people) as manager. During our run we only played one side from the same division as ourselves, & that was Aston Villa at home in the quarter finals. The rest, including the final against Sunderland, were against lower league opposition. So whilst it was classed as a successful season, it didn't show that we were actually in decline. 9 years later in 2001 we won 3 trophies, & luck once again played a big part. Weak opponents in the League Cup & UEFA Cup finals. & Michael Owen saving our skins after we'd been outplayed by Arsenal in the FA Cup final. It didn't prove to be a springboard for the club because Houllier was sacked 3 years later. Luck has gone against us in recent seasons. The last 3 opponents we've faced in finals have been Chelsea in the 2012 FA Cup. Man City in the 2016 League Cup. & Seville in the 2016 Europa League Cup. That compares to Crystal Palace, Southampton, & Ajax for United's last 3 cup finals. So us only winning 1 cup in 11 seasons doesn't tell the full story. Arsenal hadn't won a single trophy in 9 years, yet they now stand a good chance of making it 3 in 4, or is it 5, years.
We faced Southampton in the League Cup final this year for example because they beat you home and away in the semis and knocked you out. So how is that us getting lucky getting a team that outplayed you?
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Some truth in this, but generally the better quality teams with the better quality managers tend to win more cups than anyone else.The thing with cups is that quite often they don't really represent a true picture of a team/manger's overall quality. Luck plays a major part in cup competitions. Opponents, home-draws, quality of side you play in the semi-finals/final etc. Back in 1992 we won the FA Cup with Graham Souness (of all people) as manager. During our run we only played one side from the same division as ourselves, & that was Aston Villa at home in the quarter finals. The rest, including the final against Sunderland, were against lower league opposition. So whilst it was classed as a successful season, it didn't show that we were actually in decline. 9 years later in 2001 we won 3 trophies, & luck once again played a big part. Weak opponents in the League Cup & UEFA Cup finals. & Michael Owen saving our skins after we'd been outplayed by Arsenal in the FA Cup final. It didn't prove to be a springboard for the club because Houllier was sacked 3 years later. Luck has gone against us in recent seasons. The last 3 opponents we've faced in finals have been Chelsea in the 2012 FA Cup. Man City in the 2016 League Cup. & Seville in the 2016 Europa League Cup. That compares to Crystal Palace, Southampton, & Ajax for United's last 3 cup finals. So us only winning 1 cup in 11 seasons doesn't tell the full story. Arsenal hadn't won a single trophy in 9 years, yet they now stand a good chance of making it 3 in 4, or is it 5, years.
Skills
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We also beat City on the way to the final.You're trying to make it sound like we were lucky to have easier opposition in the finals but it's not as simple as that.
We faced Southampton in the League Cup final this year for example because they beat you home and away in the semis and knocked you out. So how is that us getting lucky getting a team that outplayed you?
redman5
New Member
Southampton is a fair point, but what about the Europa League ? Did you actually play anyone of note in the whole competition, let alone the final ? In 2016 we played United, Dortmund, Villarreal, & then Seville in the final. Like I say, luck of the draw plays a big part. We've had it both ways, as do most clubs TBF.You're trying to make it sound like we were lucky to have easier opposition in the finals but it's not as simple as that.
We faced Southampton in the League Cup final this year for example because they beat you home and away in the semis and knocked you out. So how is that us getting lucky getting a team that outplayed you?
Djemba-Djemba
Full Member
No arguments about our Europa League run compared to yours.Southampton is a fair point, but what about the Europa League ? Did you actually play anyone of note in the whole competition, let alone the final ? In 2016 we played United, Dortmund, Villarreal, & then Seville in the final. Like I say, luck of the draw plays a big part. We've had it both ways, as do most clubs TBF.
Utd definitely got the easier route there. The Liverpool run last year wouldn't look out of place in the Champions League.
TheBiggest
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I think FSG will loosen the purse strings now. They've had zero issue spending with the Red Sox when they've been in position to push on and compete for a title in MLB, but have cut payroll when it's been out of the question. With Klopp having provided a platform for CL and having a more proven pedigree than Brendan I expect that the owners will allocate a larger transfer kitty moving forward than we've seen. Not on par with United, City and Chelsea but more than Tottenham and at least on par, if not more, than Arsenal.
I don't think that will be the case. The expansion of the stadium was pretty pricey. And in order to buy even an average player these days, you are talking 30m and 120k a week in wages (Liverpool notoriously don't pay big wages in comparison to those around them). So, for Liverpool to get 4 average players in this summer, you are talking about an amount of money FSG have never spent, even at the Sox. Plus, Liverpool need more than just four average players.
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He said league positions over many years and he's rightWe've finished above you 2 out of the last 4 seasons, & even put in a title challenge. You've been less than ordinary then since the great man called it a day if you think our league form is wank.
The reality for both Liverpool and Spurs is that they need to progress further and effectively build their "brands" based on financial investment and success.
this success will be combinations of at 1 or 2 of finishing in the top 3 successively, qualifying to knock out stages of the champions league and winning domestic cups
Chelsea, City & Utd may hurt if they don't do this from time to time but already have the size to and relative previous success to cope with this
The Arsenal route of top 4 for CL qualification successively isn't enough to give Spurs or Liverpool a sufficient competitive advantage over the genuine big clubs
Strangely despite Leicester winning the league last year I think we are on the verge of watching the big clubs reassert themselves based on huge investment & stable management
If Liverpool & Spurs are going to get success they need to get it before this
Liver_bird
Full Member
No arguments here. Its our most barren trophy run in the post shankly era. Really isnt good enough, we need to invest heavily this summer.You're probably right and I'm not having a go but that's a very poor record.
sunama
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Not only did they not buy anyone decent after they finished 2nd, they got rid of their best player!!!I get where you're coming from but you've finished top 4 5 times in the last 10 years and kept falling out and didn't buy anyone decent when you came 2nd.
For me, getting rid of their best player and not replacing him (I don't count Balotelli as a replacement), was negligent and it ultimately saw the manager responsible, get rightfully sacked.
In any case, it's all in the past now....we all need to look to the future.
El cangrejo
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That's it. 2011-12 League Cup and FA Cup finals, 2015-16 League Cup and Europa League finals.1 League Cup in 10 years for a club of their stature and history is really bad, it would be really interesting to see how many Semi-Finals and Finals they made during this period? I can recall them losing 3 finals off the top of my head, Chelsea during Andy Carroll years and twice last season.
Bwuk
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Sorry but I'm not seeing Liverpool as being this massive side on the rise and one to worry about. We've heard this time and time again throughout the years.
Bredans side that nearly won the title was much better. Liverpool this year finished 4th above a very poor Arsenal and United, and didn't confirm it till the final day.
They dont have a winners mentality. Would anyone of been surprised really if they'd shat it on the final day and finished 5th?
It's the same problem I feel we have although I hope the two trophies this year help with it.
I don't think they have enough players in there squad who have won trophies, who know how to get the job done when it matters. Bar Milner, I can't think of anyone in there starting 11 who will have a league title anywhere worth mentioning (although perhaps I'm talking bollocks - I have had quite a few vodkas tonight).
Bredans side that nearly won the title was much better. Liverpool this year finished 4th above a very poor Arsenal and United, and didn't confirm it till the final day.
They dont have a winners mentality. Would anyone of been surprised really if they'd shat it on the final day and finished 5th?
It's the same problem I feel we have although I hope the two trophies this year help with it.
I don't think they have enough players in there squad who have won trophies, who know how to get the job done when it matters. Bar Milner, I can't think of anyone in there starting 11 who will have a league title anywhere worth mentioning (although perhaps I'm talking bollocks - I have had quite a few vodkas tonight).
Champions League 2007 finalThat's it. 2011-12 League Cup and FA Cup finals, 2015-16 League Cup and Europa League finals.
DevilRed
Full Member
Nothing new here. They have been irrelevant for 20 years now.
Jacko21
Full Member
I hope they remain in the abyss. For the sake of football.
DevilRed
Full Member
Will take a major miracle for it not to go on. I mean its been this way for 20-30 years now.I hope they remain in the abyss. For the sake of football.
7th, 4th, 5th, 6th last 4 seasons and yes we know, two cups this season, but look at the competition you faced, most top teams would also have won them with those draws, not exactly top drawer, or even second drawer (yes of course you can only beat what's put in front of you but that isn't the point).I might understand if United were comfortably mid-table and showing few signs of improving, except those two trophies and league position are indicative of a side on the up.
So have United progressed as a team? I actually find that very hard to assess with any degree of certainty, gradual improvement perhaps ? Whilst Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool have measurably improved and City seem only to need to sort out their defence (having released 4 players that is happening), and maybe strengthen one slot in midfield too, to be a power next season.
I'm sure people will say ... yes, yes ,yes but we have Mourinho and two cups ! However let's not pretend that United had to beat the best, or even just very good, teams to those trophies, City the only top rated side in 11 rounds of cup matches ; Northampton, City, West Ham, Hull (inc. losing away) and Southampton (and even that win was due to poor refereeing perhaps) then Zorya Luhansk, Fenerbahce (lost away), Feyenoord (lost away), St Etienne, Rostov, Anderlecht and Celta Vigo (and then only due to Guidetti missing a sitter from 6m in the 96th minute that had the whole of RedCafe saying .. how the feck did he miss that ? Thank God !). United have really just fallen over the line in both cups.
So let's look at PL form and especially look at United's games against other Top 6 sides : W2 D4 L4 (and add two draws vs. Everton if you want to make it Top 7). And finished 24 points behind the PL winners (15 pts last season) and 7 behind 4th (we can say a virtual 8 as GD is far inferior). We can chat all day about players bought and sold but in B&W there's precious little progress there despite Mourinho's rhetoric.
Next season ? Personally I want to see how the Summer transfer season goes before making any forecasts. Carrick has signed a new deal but for me you need a new CM there, and will Ibra stay ? A lot depends on Griezmann, he would be very good for you but you need more than one striker havin lost Rooney and especially if a 37 yo Ibra goes. A CB, LB, CM and at least one, should be two, strikers ... however United have said 3-4 inbounds so you may come up short if that is gospel.
GM K
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Why do people make generalisations like this?Just 4th next season, no trophies would get him sacked.
What if United wins no trophy but makes fourth, plays fantastic football and barely lose the Champions League final by one penalty kick? Would he still be sacked? The truth is we don't really know. What if the club owners are very happy with him? Silverware is very important for a team like United but we have had trophyless seasons and still left the manager in charge.
I think there will be other factors to consider apart from just not winning a trophy.