The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft Round 1 - 2mufc0 vs. Invictus/Ecstatic

[charlton66]

You did write 'players like Jack Charlton from the 1960s'.

Why do you suggest Brazilian players can't cope with players with strong physical impact?

No I don't suggest that at all. I said it was the only way lesser players/teams/nations could compete against them. In the "little World Cup" for instance in 1964 Pele broke the nose of some Argentinian player during the tournament by headbutting him. Brazilian players could dish it out too. What I'm getting at here is players like Jack Charlton and Diego Simeone for instance would be doing their level best to get under the skin of your flair players affecting their rhythm. Jack was a hard bastard and Simeone was a snidey SOB and they have both been known to use suspect tactics to win. If you're playing these matches on some so-called otherworldly plane where everything in the garden is rosy you maybe don't need to consider things like this. If you're playing these matches in the real world then this stuff needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[2mufc0]

@green_smiley
Am I allowed to vote just to see the score but don't want it to count if I consider it a stalemate?

Don't vote then mate! You'll just have to wait until the end of the game if you can't decide.

 

[2mufc0]

Nobody to discuss the ability of 2mufc to keep under control players like Zico... Carvajal vs Ronaldinho... Carvajal as right-wing back...

One way discussion as usual

Not really we've had a poster call him a liability. So it has been discussed. But I've explained how we will deal with it.

I also think we have the better goal scorers, while you are relying on flair, I don't think Buffon, Baresi and Cannavaro have been talked about much but they will go a long way in stopping your attackers.

 

[Enigma_87]

Why is Eusebio on the left? His best position was right side and more suitable to exploit Zambrotta.

Charlton from his origins as left wingers, is already naturally placed to drift left and can operate in sync with Eusebio on right.

Eusebio could play either side really and he was incredibly two footed. Ideally he'll just exploit the free space and opearate all over the front line.

For aesthetic purposes I agree two considering Sir Bobby usually drifting to the left.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I thought Eusebio was pretty tasty at that Henry-esque move of skinning defenders on their right side by moving the ball from right to left foot at pace.

From what I see, he prefers to start from deep and run at defenders at speed from right midfield. As you say, when he nears goals, he makes sharp cuts and move ball to left foot and continues infield till box where he shoots. He was naturally right footed though, prefers to shoot with and has a thundering right foot shot capability. There was an article when he was playing against England in 1966, Stiles had specific instructions to stay on right of Eusebio forcing him to use his weaker left foot more.

A players of his capability can do a good job on the left, cutting in and using his right foot to score....but it'd be giving up as he'd not be running from deep effectively from the left midfield.

Also in this match with Charlton (originally left winger) and Leo Junior (who also cuts infeld from left flank), Eusebio is better placed on the right. With Carvajal overlapping, it's probably his best place for this match.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Eusebio could play either side really and he was incredibly two footed. Ideally he'll just exploit the free space and opearate all over the front line.

For aesthetic purposes I agree two considering Sir Bobby usually drifting to the left.

Deja Vu. We've had this discussion before, right?

I may need to pull up the article, but his left foot was weaker than the right. He certainly can use both, but his trademark shots were right footed.

 

[charlton66]

If you had to analyze a game in a fair and equitable manner, then you would have to look at all the 22 players.

Then, you'd see our team isn't comprised of 11 angels. For instance, I don't think Varela, Chumpitaz or Perfumo have a lot of things to learn on this subject.

In the real world, a Brazilian team like Flamengo won the Copa Libertadores and the Intercontinental cup.

Let's agree to disagree because we go around in circles.

No problem. I enjoy the discussions.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

First thoughts,

@2mufc0
I am a bit confused by the OP (havent read the thread yet)

Formation and personnel looks very sit deep and counterattack style but you seem to hint at controlling possession with the midfield 3v2. What exactly is your tactic?

@Ecstatic
Typical avant-garde tactic with no right back! How exactly do you see Perfumo performing there (without the large font and colors please

 

[Enigma_87]

Deja Vu. We've had this discussion before, right?

I may need to pull up the article, but his left foot was weaker than the right. He certainly can use both, but his trademark shots were right footed.

Think we had it about twice

He was indeed right footed but the difference was really small.

I don't think it makes that much of an issue which side you'd put him. I'd always try to fit him somewhere where he can run into pockets and find space to utilize his pace and directness.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

As an opponent, so glad these two met in the first round
Unfair for either to go out though.

Not a fan of Verala in the Invistatic midfield. Looks terribly out of place.

Varela seems a great fit to me. Its Pirlo who doesn't fit with the rest of the tactic IMO. I'd rather someone like Mendieta there than Pirlo.

I forgot how much I hate Ecstatic's colourful spam, tempted to vote for 2mufc just because of it

Agreed. The different font sizes and multiple colours gives me a headache

 

[2mufc0]

From what I see, he prefers to start from deep and run at defenders at speed from right midfield. As you say, when he nears goals, he makes sharp cuts and move ball to left foot and continues infield till box where he shoots. He was naturally right footed though, prefers to shoot with and has a thundering right foot shot capability. There was an article when he was playing against England in 1966, Stiles had specific instructions to stay on right of Eusebio forcing him to use his weaker left foot more.

A players of his capability can do a good job on the left, cutting in and using his right foot to score....but it'd be giving up as he'd not be running from deep effectively from the left midfield.

Also in this match with Charlton (originally left winger) and Leo Junior (who also cuts infeld from left flank), Eusebio is better placed on the right. With Carvajal overlapping, it's probably his best place for this match.

Noted and it makes sense. The videos I seen of him a lot of the time he was running central and from the left, the other reason was I expected them to play Lauren at RB and wanted to target him, however they ended up playing a centre half at right back.

 

[2mufc0]

First thoughts,

@2mufc0
I am a bit confused by the OP (havent read the thread yet)

Formation and personnel looks very sit deep and counterattack style but you seem to hint at controlling possession with the midfield 3v2. What exactly is your tactic?

@Ecstatic
Typical avant-garde tactic with no right back! How exactly do you see Perfumo performing there (without the large font and colors please

I thought the formation images shows the players in normal positions, I mean my midfielders and defenders are in similar position to the opposition. My first tactical instruction is to gain control of the midfield and cut off the supply to the attackers. I don't have a specific overly attacking mindset or defensive, I want to use the superior work rate of my team to outnumber them in attack. I've tried to set the team up to play to the match situation, whether it be possession, counter or attacking if we need the goal.

 

[charlton66]

What should I answer? That Brazilians are known to beat any team?

We were talking about the 1960s when I made that comment and of course nothing stands out more than how Pele was hammered during the '66 World Cup. I know we won and I'm grateful to have been alive to see it happen but he got absolutely destroyed during the tournament. The Bulgarians kicked the snot out of him in the first game, their coach offering up this little nugget to future teams that "I think every team will take care of him in the same manner." He couldn't play in the second game because of the fallout from game one and then when he did come back for the final group game he got hammered again to the point where he was a virtual spectator for the entire game. Not to posit any conspiracy theories here but just for your consideration - of Brazil's three group games one was refereed by a West German, the other two by Englishmen.

EDIT: So in your match up, what nationality is the referee?

 

[2mufc0]

I knew Zico is criminally underrated in these draft and that is why nobody tried to pick him.

Disappointed that you personally don't consider Zico as an attacking midfielder

I think you are missing the point, it's essentially a midfield 3 vs a midfield 2. Zico isn't a b2b midfielder, doesn't mean he isn't rated.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I knew Zico is criminally underrated in these draft and that is why nobody tried to pick him.

Disappointed that you personally don't consider Zico as an attacking midfielder

What are you talking about? I rate Zico as the 7th Best Player of All Time (only behind Pele, Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano grudgingly - I really like Zico better but I acknowledge Di Stefano has better credentials).

My question was to 2mufc0's intended tactics. I think you greatly misunderstood. Actually I think @2mufc0 misunderstood as well as he didn't really answer what I was actually asking

I guess I phrased poorly and I have to go now so more later

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I knew Zico is criminally underrated in these draft and that is why nobody tried to pick him.

Zico underrated in drafts Which forum were you reading? @Moby will be on warpath against anyone underrating Zico!

 

[2mufc0]

Why is Gerson's arrow going to the left? Perfumo is not instructed to attack so its Junior + J Charlton vs Jairzinho by himself. Gerson becomes the spare man. Imo you've surrended that flank by playing Perfumo there.

 

[antohan]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps discussing Pirlo when Carvajal is up against Goofy and Junior against Jairzinho. It's a strong core in that defence, but the flanks will get done time and again.

The flipside is Junior will have a good game going forward. In fact, I don't get why Gerson and Eusebio are left, both should be swapped IMO. That way Eusebio can target the space behind Zambrotta and the midfield has a good playmaker either side (Junior-Gerson) of Simeone, who will be harder for Pirlo to keep any tabs on.

 

[2mufc0]

One of these issues is the role attributed to Carvajal.

Who is charge of helping Carvajal against Ronaldinho + Zambrotta?

Shearer? Simeone busy with Zico? Cannavaro then?


Let me think Ronaldinho will be able to have a similar impact

This is a very misleading video title, there was no 'destroying' in that video most of the moves ended up with Neymar doing a skill then going sideways or backwards. In fact at 3.12 Carvajal stops neymar in a 1 on 1 situation. I think only one of these moves resulted in a goal and that wasn't solely Carvajal's fault.

 

[MJJ]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps discussing Pirlo when Carvajal is up against Goofy and Junior against Jairzinho. It's a strong core in that defence, but the flanks will get done time and again.

The flipside is Junior will have a good game going forward. In fact, I don't get why Gerson and Eusebio are left, both should be swapped IMO. That way Eusebio can target the space behind Zambrotta and the midfield has a good playmaker either side (Junior-Gerson) of Simeone, who will be harder for Pirlo to keep any tabs on.

Because a 5 man backline negates that to an extent? They need to beat a cb after beating a wing-back, pirlo varala and zico being so weak defensively does mean that team invictus will be pinned back.

Advantage of having gerson on the left side is that pirlo has to keep tabs on him rather than varala which works in 20mufc favour.

 

[2mufc0]

You're lucky to appreciate so much your 3rd pick in the round 10

ROUND TEN, TURN ONE: RESULTS

1. Edgar Allan Pillow - Manuel Amoros PASS
2. Pat_Mustard - FAIL (Gerd Muller)
3. 2mufc0 - FAIL (invalid pick)
4. mazhar13 - Anatoliy Demyanenko PASS
5. Gio - Roy Keane PASS
6. Enigma - Diego Godin PASS
7. Indnyc/crappy - FAIL (Giacinto Facchetti)
8. Skizzo - Neville Southall PASS
9. idmanager - Gaetano Scirea PASS
10. Invictus/Ecstatic - FAIL (Giacinto Facchetti)
11. harms - Tom Finney PASS
12. oneniltothearsenal/shrike - José Nassazi PASS
13. P-Nut0712 - FAIL (invalid pick)
14. Tuppet - FAIL (Gerd Muller)
15. Lord SInister/Charly - Igor Netto PASS
16. prath92/KM - Mario Coluna PASS

ROUND TEN, TURN TWO: RESULTS

2. Pat_Mustard - Luigi Riva PASS
3. 2mufc0 - FAIL (already picked - Amoros)
7. Indnyc/crappy - Antonio Cabrini PASS
10. Invictus/Ecstatic - Obdulio Varela PASS
13. P-Nut0712 - Lev Yashin PASS
14. Tuppet - FAIL (already picked - Scirea)


ROUND TEN, TURN THREE: RESULTS

3. 2mufc0 - Dani Carvajal PASS
14. Tuppet - Luis Monti PASS

don't see the relevance. He was the next best Rwb available in that criteria after Amoros. This is getting childish now.

 

[2mufc0]

My post is maybe childish but let me return the compliment about some of your contributions.

No problem, as long as it's related to the game.

 

[Gio]

From what I see, he prefers to start from deep and run at defenders at speed from right midfield. As you say, when he nears goals, he makes sharp cuts and move ball to left foot and continues infield till box where he shoots. He was naturally right footed though, prefers to shoot with and has a thundering right foot shot capability. There was an article when he was playing against England in 1966, Stiles had specific instructions to stay on right of Eusebio forcing him to use his weaker left foot more.

A players of his capability can do a good job on the left, cutting in and using his right foot to score....but it'd be giving up as he'd not be running from deep effectively from the left midfield.

Also in this match with Charlton (originally left winger) and Leo Junior (who also cuts infeld from left flank), Eusebio is better placed on the right. With Carvajal overlapping, it's probably his best place for this match.

Yeah. I don't have a preference on either side considering it in isolation for the big man, but given Charlton (and Gerson and Junior who may end up in the same area), a switch to the right would offer more balance.

 

[2mufc0]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps discussing Pirlo when Carvajal is up against Goofy and Junior against Jairzinho. It's a strong core in that defence, but the flanks will get done time and again.

The flipside is Junior will have a good game going forward. In fact, I don't get why Gerson and Eusebio are left, both should be swapped IMO. That way Eusebio can target the space behind Zambrotta and the midfield has a good playmaker either side (Junior-Gerson) of Simeone, who will be harder for Pirlo to keep any tabs on.

Because the midfield issue is a bigger one imo. One of the main reasons of going with the 5 at the back was to negate his fantastic wingers, both of my wing backs will have plenty of help.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

How many drafts has Zico won?

He's usually an early pick whenever he's available in the pool.

You're lucky to appreciate so much your 3rd pick in the round 10

The likes of Scirea, Keane and Yashin were also picked in R10. What's your point?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

With the exception of the round 1, they weren't available earlier in the drafting process.

No problem: please feel free to pretend not to understand my posts.

You should chill a bit. Nobody has any personal agenda against you or your team

Anyway, I thought I had voted for you and just realized the mistake.

 

[crappycraperson]

Wow surprised Invictastic is losing this. One of the best drafted teams for me. That front 4 is tasty.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

From what I see, he prefers to start from deep and run at defenders at speed from right midfield. As you say, when he nears goals, he makes sharp cuts and move ball to left foot and continues infield till box where he shoots. He was naturally right footed though, prefers to shoot with and has a thundering right foot shot capability. There was an article when he was playing against England in 1966, Stiles had specific instructions to stay on right of Eusebio forcing him to use his weaker left foot more.

A players of his capability can do a good job on the left, cutting in and using his right foot to score....but it'd be giving up as he'd not be running from deep effectively from the left midfield.

Also in this match with Charlton (originally left winger) and Leo Junior (who also cuts infeld from left flank), Eusebio is better placed on the right. With Carvajal overlapping, it's probably his best place for this match.

And did it again in 68 Euro Cup Final....

 

[2mufc0]

Wow surprised Invictastic is losing this. One of the best drafted teams for me. That front 4 is tasty.

You shouldn't be hinting at the score lines.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

[QUOTE="Ecstatic, post: 21872284, member: 100561"]In a 3-5-2 system, the central midfielders have to defensively support the wing backs while in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 it's up to the wingers to defend].

Or the nearest CH drifts across (a la rugby defence)?

So Ronaldinho gets it.... Simeone or Cannavaro could move over. (The other flank possibly doesn't have the same quality of cover).

 

[2mufc0]

[QUOTE="Ecstatic, post: 21872284, member: 100561"]In a 3-5-2 system, the central midfielders have to defensively support the wing backs while in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 it's up to the wingers to defend].

Or the nearest CH drifts across (a la rugby defence)?

So Ronaldinho gets it.... Simeone or Cannavaro could move over. (The other flank possibly doesn't have the same quality of cover).

But the problem with his other flank it's Jairzinho by himself, they have a CB at right back to keep an eye on Eusebio, so should be easier for me to manage.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

But the problem with his other flank it's Jairzinho by himself, they have a CB at right back to keep an eye on Eusebio, so should be easier for me to manage.

Yeah maybe.

Two great sides, though personally, Shearer is a turnoff. Just think he was (is) a xxxx.

Think I'll abstain.

 

[antohan]

Because a 5 man backline negates that to an extent? They need to beat a cb after beating a wing-back, pirlo varala and zico being so weak defensively does mean that team invictus will be pinned back.

Advantage of having gerson on the left side is that pirlo has to keep tabs on him rather than varala which works in 20mufc favour.

No midfield with Varela in it can be called weak, you are having a laugh.

Re: Gerson, he isn't the most potent or mobile of midfielders. Pirlo can do a credible job in trying to neutralise an intelligent player like him, but not a B2B like Simeone. Varela should be primarily minding Charlton anyway, by matching Gerson and Pirlo together what I'm seeing is a midfield where the guy given some freedom is Simeone. Frankly, I'm not too bothered about that, far more bothered about both rival fullbacks getting roasted time and again.

 

[MJJ]

No midfield with Varela in it can be called weak, you are having a laugh.

Re: Gerson, he isn't the most potent or mobile of midfielders. Pirlo can do a credible job in trying to neutralise an intelligent player like him, but not a B2B like Simeone. Varela should be primarily minding Charlton anyway, by matching Gerson and Pirlo together what I'm seeing is a midfield where the guy given some freedom is Simeone. Frankly, I'm not too bothered about that, far more bothered about both rival fullbacks getting roasted time and again.

What about

Bebe-Varela-Ravel

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

No midfield with Varela in it can be called weak, you are having a laugh.

Re: Gerson, he isn't the most potent or mobile of midfielders. Pirlo can do a credible job in trying to neutralise an intelligent player like him, but not a B2B like Simeone. Varela should be primarily minding Charlton anyway, by matching Gerson and Pirlo together what I'm seeing is a midfield where the guy given some freedom is Simeone. Frankly, I'm not too bothered about that, far more bothered about both rival fullbacks getting roasted time and again.

Saved me writing a similar post on my phone.

 

[Enigma_87]

Regarding the to scorers, it seems I have 5 of the top 8 scorers on the pitch based on Wiki as you did by calculating the goals scored by Shearer+Eusebio (959 goals in the OP).

Carreer all competitions - based on Wiki:

1. Eusebio: 580
2. Zico: 476
3. Shearer: 379
4. Kalle: 293
5. Ronaldinho 280
6. Bobby Charlto: 260
7. Jairzinho: 197 (not Wikipedia here)
8. Pirlo: 73

Invictus = 1,319 > 2mufc0 = 1,219

Goals with National teams

1. Zico: 52
2. Bobby Charlton: 49
3. Kalle: 45
4. Eusebio: 41
5. Jairzinho: 33
6. Ronaldinho 33
7. Shearer: 30
8. Gerson: 14

Invictus = 163 > 2mufc0 = 134

Also, between 20% and 30% of the goals are scored on set-pieces

3 SPECIALISTS TO COVER ALL THE SPECTRUM OF FREE KICKS

Not really fond of these direct number comparisons. Different players have different peaks, playing for different teams and different competitions.

3 -4 year peaks is better as a direct comparison playing at highest level, shows more consistency as well.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Wish there were more pro 'sell my team's posts than anti ones.

 

[2mufc0]

A 3-5-2 with Carvajal as a right-wing back and Gerson who has to sacrifice his game

3-5-2 that makes sense:

----- >> wing back with a high work-rate like Pessotto/Di Livio or brilliant counter-attacker like Cafu
----- >> an offensive duo comprise of a striker and a support striker

What do we have here?

A 'right-wing back' (13 caps) who scored 2 goals in his career and not very known for his offensive contribution.. Not a Cafu.
In terms of work-rate, certainly not a Di Livio
And we know how Neymar destroyed him during 4 consecutive years.
Like Pirlo, Gerson isn't the pure defensive midfielder to defend all over the pitch.

You've never watched Carvajal play have you? His strength is actually his attacking play and work rate. And I've explained why he has less caps previously.

Real Madrid are pushing for the double this season and their successful European and domestic campaign rely heavily on their fullbacks. Manager's Zinedine Zidane's gameplay demands plenty of crosses into the box and Carvajal does that job brilliantly.


His extraordinary work rate means there is barely any space left for the opposition to exploit and his pace can trigger quick counters. He has racked up seven assists this season and you wouldn't bet against him to add a couple more.

http://www.90min.in/posts/4899677-r...world-right-now/1-daniel-carvajal-real-madrid

It sometimes seems that Carvajal flies beneath the radar. Many Real Madrid youth products do -- such is the rarity of progression to regular football in the club's first team -- but the 24-year-old is an outstanding talent and has improved each year since Madrid exercised a buy-back clause to retrieve him from Bayer Leverkusen in 2013.

Carvajal gives Madrid attacking impetus down his flank and is capable of lighting an occasion up on his own: witness this season's European Super Cup against Sevilla, in which he scored a brilliant last-minute solo winner. Carvajal has considerable competition for a place in Spain's squad, but has time on his side to make his argument even more persuasive.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/blog...-of-bayern-munich-is-top-right-back-in-soccer

As consecutive Champions League wins would suggest, Real Madrid are the top dogs of European football right now and naturally their starting XI is packed full of players who are amongst the world’s best in their position. Cristiano Ronaldo, Luka Modric and Sergio Ramos are all top-class players and so too are Dani Carvajal and Marcelo, who are arguably the best right and left backs in the world right now.

The Brazilian completed more dribbles per 90 minutes than any other defender to make more than five appearances in the Champions League with 2.61 take ons completed while the Spaniard was top for assists by defenders in the Champions League with five. Real Madrid can hurt teams from all angles and the tenacity of their full backs adds another layer to their attack.

http://www.squawka.com/news/10-best-full-back-pairings-in-europes-top-five-leagues-analysis/992163

Marcelo and Carvajal have now been involved in 27 goals this season. The Brazilian has scored three times and has given 12 assists while Carvajal has scored once and given 11 passes to goal.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...drid-flying-thanks-Dani-Carvajal-Marcelo.html

There are many more out quotes out there, what you have said is completely false.

 

[Invictus]

Well done @Ecstatic! A+++ for effort.

Cheers to the draft mods for organizing this, and good luck for the rest of the draft @2mufc0 - Fenómeno awaits you.

x

 

[2mufc0]

Hey guys is this some sort of reverse psychology? This isn't over the last 4/5 votes went to you.