The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft SF - harms vs. Tuppet

Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
In Garrincha there were matches he was completely non arsed about and some where he didn't even know or care if it was a knockout match or not but he pretty much always gets rated in his 62 form only.
He's been beaten with that stick before. Hell, even I had him once and admitted I couldn't give him instructions, just hope he turned it on and made the difference.

Actually, the "too many cooks" argument usually works when Garrincha is one of them. People focus on ball hogging but the truth is, as you say, his 62 form was the direct result of Pelé being injured and him having to step up. Which he did, all credit to him.

Same with Zidane where even in the NT tournament peak draft he was judged solely on his game winning performances without much taken away for the face he got a red cards in a few big tournaments and routinely didn't show up in peak for every week for his club.
Zidane usually draws such discussions, particularly regarding his peak (not 98 but 00, etc). Nobody even tried pick him at all!

Also I never seen Jairzinho as a match winner unlike many draft games with Zidane or Garrincha who always are in their absolutely top tournament form and never judged on their inconsistent club form. So I disagree about him being overrated. Never seen someone win a draft match because of Jairzinho so you must rate him pretty low

For the record though, I do think Rivellino is definitely a better player and historically an underrated one.
Being a matchwinner isn't the point. I was asked:
Keeping aside the game and the result as such, who would you fancy winning the right wing battle?
Finney against Lizarazu or Jairzinho against Zebec?
And I answered:
I find all four wing battles are pretty even. Jairzinho probably has an advantage in not facing a specialist. But then, neither was Jairzinho an out and out RW.

He is overrated if you ask me. He is called the World Cup Hurricane for a reason: he never performed at such lofty heights before or after. It was a perfect storm in both his company and the conditions the games were played in. Lovely player to watch, but 74 was more his level.
Where am I arguing he is overrated as a match-winner? Just pointing out Jairzinho is overrated overall. As you say, Rivelino was absolutely the better player but I seriously doubt the average person thinks so.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
He's been beaten with that stick before. Hell, even I had him once and admitted I couldn't give him instructions, just hope he turned it on and made the difference.

Actually, the "too many cooks" argument usually works when Garrincha is one of them. People focus on ball hogging but the truth is, as you say, his 62 form was the direct result of Pelé being injured and him having to step up. Which he did, all credit to him.

Zidane usually draws such discussions, particularly regarding his peak (not 98 but 00, etc). Nobody even tried pick him at all!

Being a matchwinner isn't the point. I was asked:

And I answered:

Where am I arguing he is overrated as a match-winner? Just pointing out Jairzinho is overrated overall. As you say, Rivelino was absolutely the better player but I seriously doubt the average person thinks so.
If you are consistent with how you rate then fair enough. Just seemed odd to me to say Jairzinho is overrated because I personally haven't seen anyone big him up in drafts.

From my point of view, he is just presented more as a complementary aspect of the team that could step up or maybe not. So its not that I don't agree with the general point about WC70 representing a particularly high peak but more that no one I have seen argues Jairzinho is going to dominate the match and win matches on his own. In other words, most drafters already rate him based on the fact WC70 is not normal form but rare form.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,342
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
For second goal he clearly started on the left side and left Thuram behind before going through the entire backline from left to right. It was not only to showcase the only Giggs-Thuram encounter but also just the skill and pace Giggs had. Giggs was playing as left winger & Thuram as right back, and Giggs was decisive for dragging his team to victory, I think its fair to show the video.
To be fair to Thuram he is completely blameless for that goal. Conte(?) plays a short Vieira-99 style ball which Giggs intercepts before driving on to skin Ferrara and Montero.

 

Tuppet

New Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
3,622
Location
West Coast
Not sure what else to contribute, you all know the players. Billy Wright is probably underrated but there are not many videos etc of him. You can go and check his many accomplishments here - http://www.sirbillywright.com/

He is at least as good (IMO better) as Ruggeri. And together him & Moore are facing a weaker attack. The difference between our strikers should be enough in my mind to get me the edge. Combine that with Zico and I think we should be flying, because there is not much difference in other places.
Probably won't make much difference but still posting the Jonathan Wilson's excellent piece on Puskas, who is inarguably the best attacker on the pitch -

How great was Ferenc Puskas? Such things, necessarily, are subjective - and, particularly when you're going on video footage, almost impossible to judge - but for me he stands alongside Johan Cruyff as one of the two greatest European players of all time.

It is not just his technical ability. Other players have had that. It is not even the fact that he had key parts in two of the most celebrated games ever played on British soil - Hungary's 6-3 victory over England at Wembley in 1953 and Real Madrid's 7-3 victory over Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960. It is the fact that that ability was allied to a brain that understood how best to use his ability for the team.

That is why his nickname, the 'Galloping Major', was so appropriate - even if he hardly galloped and, at the time it was bestowed, was only a lieutenant - because he was so good at marshalling his side towards a common goal. "If a good player has the ball, he should have the vision to spot three options," the full-back Jeno Buzanszky said. "Puskas always saw at least five."

Team-mates complained about Puskas's influence over coaches and about his constant hectoring on the pitch, but nobody ever accused him of being selfish. Along with everything else, he was a hugely astute leader. In his first season at Real Madrid, for instance, he and the notoriously difficult Alfredo di Stefano were joint leading scorers going into the final match of the season. Late on, Puskas had a chance to score but opted instead to wait and square it for Di Stefano, recognising the problems it could cause for morale if the Argentinian did not finish as top scorer. He showed similar selflessness after that 1960 European Cup final, handing the match ball to Erwin Stein, who had scored two of Eintracht's three goals. Puskas had scored four.

There are those who carp that Puskas was very left-footed. He was, but it hardly diminished him. "You can only kick with one foot at a time," he once said. "Otherwise you fall on your arse." As an example of how his turned a weakness into a strength, you only have to look at that game against England in 1953.

With Hungary leading 2-1, a cross from the left found him at the back post. He took the ball down and it seemed that he had to hit it with his right foot. Billy Wright, England's captain, went flying in to make a challenge, "rushing," as Geoffrey Green put it in the Times, "like a fire-engine going to the wrong fire". Puskas, slipped the ball back with the sole of his left foot, leaving Wright sprawling and, with barely any backlift, thrashed his finish past Gil Merrick. The Hungarian radio commentator Gyorgy Szepesi remembers walking on to the pitch after the game and examining the spot. "They should have laid down a plaque," he said.

Comparisons are made with George Best, not least because Puskas enjoyed a similarly hectic social life. Tales of his drinking exploits with Jim Baxter are legion, and the late Scotland winger, who maintained that the Hungarian had just two words of English - "vhisky" and "jiggy-jig" - often told the story of arriving at a party in Drumchapel on the outskirts of Glasgow to find Puskas "jiggy-jigging" in the scullery.

But Puskas's habit never got in the way of his football and, after the two-year exile he served following his defection in 1956, he had the self-discipline to lose 18kg before lining up for Real Madrid. With an Olympic gold, a World Cup silver, five Hungarian league titles, five Spanish championships and a European Cup, plus the fact he was top scorer in Spain four times, his achievements dwarf those of Best.

The decline of Hungarian football since has only magnified the greatness of Puskas's side. I arrived in Budapest last month, in the week they lost to Malta, and I even heard it said that at least Puskas, suffering then the later stages of Alzheimer's, would not understand.

"His brain is over," said the Olympic water-polo champion Gyorgy Karpati, who visited him regularly. "He is just a body waiting for the day when it will be over." Sentimentally, there were those who wished he would hold on until Saturday week, November 25, the date of the 6-3. Amid all the commemorations of the Uprising, no anniversary will be so soaked in tears as that.

"If I say Hungary, I say Puskas," Karpati went on. "If you go to Venezuela or Naples or Australia and you say Hungary, people would say Puskas. That says it all."
 
Last edited:

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
What I like about Zico and Puskas is that they both work perfectly as the center piece of the attack but they both are not pure selfish players and are perfectly happy to work in combinations with other players where they don't have to dominate on the ball.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
By the way, in the same trend of comparing hyped oldies (Zebec) with their modern analogues, I'd like to point out that Rijkaard's presence in the middle shouldn't be overlooked — if anyone can control Zico, it's him.

One of his trademark performances - semi final in 1989 against Real.

And then, further back we have Beckenbauer — he is the only player to influence the game as much from the defensive position.


Regarding Billy Wright — I'm not sure about him, really. Another defender from the uber-attacking era, but England did concede some very easy goals — and then we have the games against Hungary in 1953/54, where he chased shadows all game... and sadly there isn't enough footage of him actually defending (I've seen him win a couple of headers here and there when I researched Finney).
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
By the way, since we're discussing my goalscoring prowess here — I have players who have a habit of scoring important goals in the finals (haven't even included semi-finals and other play-off games):

Frank Rijkaard

a winner in the 1989/90 CL final against Benfica

a goal to secure 1990 Super Cup victory over Sampdoria

2 goals in a 3:0 victory in the International Cup in 1990



Franz Beckenbauer

an equaliser in the Cup final in 1971

a goal in the 1965/66 Cup final



Paul Breitner

a winner in the 1981/82 Cup final

an equaliser in the 1974 World Cup final

a consolation goal in the 1982 World Cup final



Günter Netzer

a winner in the 1972/73 Cup final, after subbing himself on the pitch
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
22,250
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
By the way, in the same trend of comparing hyped oldies (Zebec) with their modern analogues, I'd like to point out that Rijkaard's presence in the middle shouldn't be overlooked — if anyone can control Zico, it's him.

One of his trademark performances - semi final in 1989 against Real.

And then, further back we have Beckenbauer — he is the only player to influence the game as much from the defensive position.


Regarding Billy Wright — I'm not sure about him, really. Another defender from the uber-attacking era, but England did concede some very easy goals — and then we have the games against Hungary in 1953/54, where he chased shadows all game... and sadly there isn't enough footage of him actually defending (I've seen him win a couple of headers here and there when I researched Finney).
"The game of the century"?


Showed Hungary (incl Puskas) as the New Order and England (incl Wright) as the Old Guard.... ironically on the same team here.
 

Tuppet

New Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
3,622
Location
West Coast
On Rijkaard, no doubt he is a great DM but then Zico played against some very best DMs and made them look ordinary. I keep going back to it but his performances against Souness (vs Liverpool 81) & Tardelli (vs Italy 82) (both are on similar level to Rijkaard) and his response to Gentile's man marking shows that he is capable of shaking off even the best DMs.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
22,250
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
On Rijkaard, no doubt he is a great DM but then Zico played against some very best DMs and made them look ordinary. I keep going back to it but his performances against Souness (vs Liverpool 81) & Tardelli (vs Italy 82) (both are on similar level to Rijkaard) and his response to Gentile's man marking shows that he is capable of shaking off even the best DMs.
81 - the Intercontinental friendly?

Souness was a Centre Mid, I'd say more of a B2B tbh (though I bow down to @Gio on this).... a very very good one, but not Rikjaard level in terms of the defensive side of the game.
 

Tuppet

New Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
3,622
Location
West Coast
Yeah, this one — and then they lost the replay 7:1 :lol:
On Billy Wright, judging his performance against Hungary team would be like judging Utd team against Barca in CL finals. It was clear that Hunagry was a team ahead of its time and the quality throughout that team was mind boggling. Czibor-Puskas-Hidegkuti-Kocsis-Budai-Bozsik that is an incredible lineup of attackers, combine this with innovative tactic of Sebes, any team and any defender would have taken a beating against them. For what its worth Billy Wright sort of redeemed himself when Honved was beaten by Wolves and were dubbed as world champions. That victory is often hailed as the precursor for setting up European cup competition. From Guardian article on that victory - https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rld-champions-honved-molineux-hungary-wembley

It was not just a triumph of a grit over skill, though. Puskas did little aside from set up the first goal, even forced to drift out to the left wing for a spell to look for some space, perhaps because of the magnificent performance by Wright. The Guardian called him a “tower of strength”, stopping the “occasional Honved thrusts down the middle and urging his men on to greater effort”. After his humiliation at the hands of the Magyars 13 months previously this was at least some redemption for the great defender.
Any way its not hard to find evidence for bad records against defenders and its hardly only defender's fault usually. Even someone as accomplished as Beckenbauer was involved with embarrassing defeats. Just did a quick google search -

Bayern - FC Schalke => 0:7
http://www.worldfootball.net/report/bundesliga-1976-1977-bayern-muenchen-fc-schalke-04/

Eintracht Frankfurt - Bayern => 6:0
http://www.worldfootball.net/report/bundesliga-1975-1976-eintracht-frankfurt-bayern-muenchen/
 
Last edited:

Tuppet

New Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
3,622
Location
West Coast
Souness was a Centre Mid, I'd say more of a B2B tbh (though I bow down to @Gio on this).... a very very good one, but not Rikjaard level in terms of the defensive side of the game.
I agree although he was clearly the hard man midfielder in that Liverpool side who was focused on stopping Zico. As he himself mentioned (From OP) -
I wanted to see how he would react to a physical challenge," the combative Scot said later. "But I couldn’t get close enough to him to find out.
He was not an anchor but thats tactical, you don't usually have one in 4-4-2. He was defensively sound like Keane and did the same job. As for how good he was defensively its subjective but for my money he is the best defensively sound midfielder British football has to offer along with Keane.
 
Last edited:

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
81 - the Intercontinental friendly?

Souness was a Centre Mid, I'd say more of a B2B tbh (though I bow down to @Gio on this).... a very very good one, but not Rikjaard level in terms of the defensive side of the game.
To call it a "friendly" is really demeaning to the importance that was placed on the Intercontinental Cup during this era. It was huge mate! Guarantee you Liverpool cared about that match far more than any team looks at a "friendly" these days. It was a totally different era.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
22,250
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
On Billy Wright, judging his performance against Hungary team would be like judging Utd team against Barca in CL finals. It was clear that Hunagry was a team ahead of its time and the quality throughout that team was mind boggling. Czibor-Puskas-Hidegkuti-Kocsis-Budai-Bozsik that is an incredible lineup of attackers, combine this with innovative tactic of Sebes, any team and any defender would have taken a beating against them. For what its worth Billy Wright sort of redeemed himself when Honved was beaten by Wolves and were dubbed as world champions. That victory is often hailed as the precursor for setting up European cup competition. From Guardian article on that victory - https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rld-champions-honved-molineux-hungary-wembley



Any way its not hard to find evidence for bad records against defenders and its hardly only defender's fault usually. Even someone as accomplished as Beckenbauer was involved with embarrassing defeats. Just did a quick google search -

Bayern - FC Schalke => 0:7
http://www.worldfootball.net/report/bundesliga-1976-1977-bayern-muenchen-fc-schalke-04/

Eintracht Frankfurt - Bayern => 6:0
http://www.worldfootball.net/report/bundesliga-1975-1976-eintracht-frankfurt-bayern-muenchen/
Fwiw, I think the England Hungary comments were just a tangent.... no focus on Wright? (not that I can see?) and big up Puskas?

The Wolves Honved match was interesting - not only (as you say) did it probably drive the EC next year, they made George Best become a Wolves fan! The champions of the world title came from the Daily Mail.... bit OTT given Honved didn't have all their players but that's the Mail for you? :)
 

Tuppet

New Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
3,622
Location
West Coast
Fwiw, I think the England Hungary comments were just a tangent.... no focus on Wright? (not that I can see?) and big up Puskas?

The Wolves Honved match was interesting - not only (as you say) did it probably drive the EC next year, they made George Best become a Wolves fan! The champions of the world title came from the Daily Mail.... bit OTT given Honved didn't have all their players but that's the Mail for you? :)
Nah Harms did highlight his failings against Mighty Magyars and that's fair enough. Its unfortunate that's how he is usually remembered. I just wanted to illustrate that he was infact a world class defender at the time and was rated as such by the press of that time as well as his peers. His FWA Footballer of the year award in 1951-52 and second place finish in 1957 Ballon D'or says it all.

As for the Wolves-Honved game it seemed like a pretty big deal from that article. But yeah that world champion moniker was OTT, even if that Wolves team was brilliant.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,342
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
On Billy Wright, judging his performance against Hungary team would be like judging Utd team against Barca in CL finals. It was clear that Hunagry was a team ahead of its time and the quality throughout that team was mind boggling. Czibor-Puskas-Hidegkuti-Kocsis-Budai-Bozsik that is an incredible lineup of attackers, combine this with innovative tactic of Sebes, any team and any defender would have taken a beating against them. For what its worth Billy Wright sort of redeemed himself when Honved was beaten by Wolves and were dubbed as world champions. That victory is often hailed as the precursor for setting up European cup competition. From Guardian article on that victory - https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rld-champions-honved-molineux-hungary-wembley

/
In fairness to Wright I was reading a copy of the match report of that game and he came out for some specific praise regarding his leadership and influence.

More broadly about that Wolves team I do judge that game with a pinch of salt given it was apparently another quagmire of a park which foiled the Hungarians again.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
22,250
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
To call it a "friendly" is really demeaning to the importance that was placed on the Intercontinental Cup during this era. It was huge mate! Guarantee you Liverpool cared about that match far more than any team looks at a "friendly" these days. It was a totally different era.
Oh right, seemed to remember Liverpool declining to even play it after winning EC in 77 and 78, press here were "mehhhh" about it ... it came right in the middle of the season and was seen as an unwanted distraction, whereas think the end of the SA season so effectively a Cup Final?

Long time ago though, sure you're right.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Fwiw, I think the England Hungary comments were just a tangent.... no focus on Wright? (not that I can see?) and big up Puskas?

The Wolves Honved match was interesting - not only (as you say) did it probably drive the EC next year, they made George Best become a Wolves fan! The champions of the world title came from the Daily Mail.... bit OTT given Honved didn't have all their players but that's the Mail for you? :)
If you think about it we are seeing the globalization effect of football here in this thread.

That Wolves-Honved match was technically a friendly yes? But it was a huge deal because there was no "official" version. So it grew into something bigger.

Same with the early European-South American club exhibition matches of Pele's era to the Intercontinental Cup. Those matches were a big deal and not really analogous to a friendly because in that era there was no other time when Europeans and South Americans played at a club level.

The late 80s through 90s era really saw the massive migration of South American talent to play club footy in Europe but up until then you can't really pull the "well the Europeans 'didn't care'. It just comes off as a BS convenient excuse whenever the Europeans lose to say "well Liverpool decline to play in 77 so they "didn't care" in 81 when they did play. If they played it like a friendly then that is even worse IMO because a cowardly,overconfident and fragile mentality reflects very poorly on every Liverpool player on that pitch in that case.
 
Last edited:

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
Oh right, seemed to remember Liverpool declining to even play it after winning EC in 77 and 78, press here were "mehhhh" about it ... it came right in the middle of the season and was seen as an unwanted distraction, whereas think the end of the SA season so effectively a Cup Final?

Long time ago though, sure you're right.
You are both right. It's demeaning, absolutely, but European sides didn't take it as seriously as South American ones, particularly during the 70s.

It all started with Celtic and United finding the Argies particularly unsavoury in 67 and 68, then Ajax and Bayern declining to play it except the one time, same with Liverpool... 80s/90s it was always contested though.

The main turning point was making it one game rather than a two leg affair.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
22,250
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
If you think about it we are seeing the globalization effect of football here in this thread.

That Wolves-Honved match was technically a friendly yes? But it was a huge deal because there was no "official" version. So it grew into something bigger.

Same with the early European-South American club exhibition matches of Pele's era to the Intercontinental Cup. Those matches were a big deal and not really analogous to a friendly because in that era there was no other time when Europeans and South Americans played at a club level.

The late 80s through 90s era really saw the massive migration of South American talent to play club footy in Europe but up until then you can't really pull the "well the Europeans 'didn't care'. It just comes off as a BS convenient excuse whenever the Europeans lose to say "well Liverpool decline to play in 77 so they "didn't care" ain 81 when they did play. If they played it like a friendly then that is even worse IMO because a weak arse mentality of ever Liverpool player on that pitch.
Oh its "just a friendly" so we didn't care. Feck off then Liverpool. I don't care about your weak sauce EC wins over weak competition if you are afraid to play SA champions in a real match. See it goes both ways and just comes off as very haughty and arrogant. Its a convenient Euro-centric excuse that doesn't wash with me.

Flamengo 1980 would have completely annihilated Liverpool's 1980 EC final opponents. That Real Madrid would not have had a prayer in heaven of winning against Flamengo of 1980 but oh the Euros are so arrogant they "didn't care about a friendly"? Sorry that excuse really winds me up as Euro arrogance and exceptionalism.
.... annnnnd breathe?! :)

Tbf, original point was more about not using the Intercontinental cup as a barometer for Zico (v Souness), which I still think is fair. I don't actually see the need to sell Zico in this draft - one of my AT faves.

Tbf2, I don't think I said Liverpool didn't care but just that it came slap bang in the middle of the season so maybe flying on what was then quite a trek? was not their priority being as they'd just played two tough games (Arsenal and Forest), were still in all cup competitions and fighting against a very good Ipswich team in the league. Again, seems a fair assumption?

On the flip side (and you're the Brazil expert so sure can put me right), would it have been the final game of the season for Flam?

Fwiw, I think EC winners should care about such games (though United missing the FACup for the World Club Finals was a disgrace) and given the players/mentalities in that Liverpool team, I doubt they just ambled through it.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
.... annnnnd breathe?! :)

Tbf, original point was more about not using the Intercontinental cup as a barometer for Zico (v Souness), which I still think is fair. I don't actually see the need to sell Zico in this draft - one of my AT faves.

Tbf2, I don't think I said Liverpool didn't care but just that it came slap bang in the middle of the season so maybe flying on what was then quite a trek? was not their priority being as they'd just played two tough games (Arsenal and Forest), were still in all cup competitions and fighting against a very good Ipswich team in the league. Again, seems a fair assumption?

On the flip side (and you're the Brazil expert so sure can put me right), would it have been the final game of the season for Flam?

Fwiw, I think EC winners should care about such games (though United missing the FACup for the World Club Finals was a disgrace) and given the players/mentalities in that Liverpool team, I doubt they just ambled through it.

I deleted some of that because it was just me ranting. Its funny that even the suggestion of Liverpool not caring about that match and declining to play in 77 still triggers me (just like the Germany-Austria intentional draw in 82 that my Austrian-German old friend hears me rant about every World Cup since 1998 when we started watching together) :lol:

It is fair to bring up the difference between end of season cup mentality vs. midseason but I would counter that with the exhaustion factor. Sure, the SA side might be up for it more, but the European side is only in the mid season form so will be fresher and less exhausted so to me that evens out if that makes sense.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,185
Location
Montevideo
.... annnnnd breathe?! :)

Tbf, original point was more about not using the Intercontinental cup as a barometer for Zico (v Souness), which I still think is fair. I don't actually see the need to sell Zico in this draft - one of my AT faves.

Tbf2, I don't think I said Liverpool didn't care but just that it came slap bang in the middle of the season so maybe flying on what was then quite a trek? was not their priority being as they'd just played two tough games (Arsenal and Forest), were still in all cup competitions and fighting against a very good Ipswich team in the league. Again, seems a fair assumption?

On the flip side (and you're the Brazil expert so sure can put me right), would it have been the final game of the season for Flam?

Fwiw, I think EC winners should care about such games (though United missing the FACup for the World Club Finals was a disgrace) and given the players/mentalities in that Liverpool team, I doubt they just ambled through it.
Was it? Not in my book. Not on United but the FA not accommodating. Remember how the EC was born? The FA didn't want to adjust the calendar to that either.

Unfortunately the quality really isn't there any more so the CWC us indeed a bit of a joke, but I think it is right by United's history to push through and support a fledgling international contest over letting the FA have its way.

It's a shame for the FA Cup, but I don't take that as United dissing it, that's just the ABU angle.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
22,250
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
Was it? Not in my book. Not on United but the FA not accommodating. Remember how the EC was born? The FA didn't want to adjust the calendar to that either.

Unfortunately the quality really isn't there any more so the CWC us indeed a bit of a joke, but I think it is right by United's history to push through and support a fledgling international contest over letting the FA have its way.

It's a shame for the FA Cup, but I don't take that as United dissing it, that's just the ABU angle.
Different and nothing to do with ABUs. If anything it was less "anything but United" and more "everyone bar United"... plus plenty of United fans.

The EC didn't clash with league games so nothing to do with the calendar and the FA were just being dinosaurs in the 50s but, the CWC did clash with the FACup and there was no way the FA should try to reschedule a cup tournament that had been going on for 127 years just because the UK government were pressurising United to play in the CWC to boost England's WC bid.

United should have told the Government to feck off and Fergie knew it was wrong at the time (he even called Blair, PM) but was powerless to fight it against the club/Govt even if he'd really wanted to argue the toss. The Premier League offered to extend the season to accommodate both but the club said no.

Busby wanted the EC as he could see it was progress and good for the world game and they could do BOTH. There's no way he'd have seen a moneymaking comp with no progress-value as coming above the FA cup.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
On Billy Wright, judging his performance against Hungary team would be like judging Utd team against Barca in CL finals. It was clear that Hunagry was a team ahead of its time and the quality throughout that team was mind boggling.
Yeah. I wasn't criticising him — it's a misfortune that the only game with him available is the absolute battering of England — it's clear that he was a brilliant player. Finney included him into his all-time England XI, even ahead of Bobby Moore

 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
Where am I arguing he is overrated as a match-winner? Just pointing out Jairzinho is overrated overall. As you say, Rivelino was absolutely the better player but I seriously doubt the average person thinks so.
If you are consistent with how you rate then fair enough. Just seemed odd to me to say Jairzinho is overrated because I personally haven't seen anyone big him up in drafts.
Jairzinho suddenly becomes overrated in drafts since he is facing a not so ideal match up in Zebec.
I am sure he would have been not so overrated if he was up against Maldini there.
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
By the way, here's the full performance of Gento vs Djalma if anyone's interested in it — the best excepts are in the OP

Didn't want to bring this up yesterday as most people had refuted my analysis of using Gento in such a setup earlier and didn't want to take back the discussion to where we stopped before.
But since we are near the end anyways, this video is a brilliant example of why such a 4-3-3 without a number 10 or supporting striker is terrible for someone like Gento.
His style of play just doesn't suit a 1 striker 4-3-3 setup.
Sure you have Netzer and Brietner capable of supporting in attack but they just won't have an impact on taking Gento to his peak levels like a number 10 or SS would.

Someone earlier mentioned the attack lacks oomph or goals in general. Actually, for an orthodox winger, Gento did score quite a lot of goals. Even though he hardly used his right foot.
There is enough oomph there, just a lack of the right kind of attacker through the centre.
I can see Gento beating Santos a few times but most of the times, the attack going in vain.

Put a Best or Dzajic in there who had more things in their armour than Gento, I could see it being a much better battle.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
Didn't want to bring this up yesterday as most people had refuted my analysis of using Gento in such a setup earlier and didn't want to take back the discussion to where we stopped before.
But since we are near the end anyways, this video is a brilliant example of why such a 4-3-3 without a number 10 or supporting striker is terrible for someone like Gento.
His style of play just doesn't suit a 1 striker 4-3-3 setup.
Sure you have Netzer and Brietner capable of supporting in attack but they just won't have an impact on taking Gento to his peak levels like a number 10 or SS would.
Again, the fact that he excels in one set up doesn't mean that he can't play in different ones. As I said, look at Madrid's games, where he drifts inside, changes places with Puskas and del Sol; Not sure what a number 10 will bring out of him that Netzer doesn't.

Let's agree to disagree.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
Jairzinho suddenly becomes overrated in drafts since he is facing a not so ideal match up in Zebec.
I am sure he would have been not so overrated if he was up against Maldini there.
By the way, back to Zebec — what do you mean by wingback position in his case, as there weren't a wingback position at all when he played — there were full backs, half backs, center backs, outside/inside lefts... Or do you just go by the positions people compiling pes database put to his profile?
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
Again, the fact that he excels in one set up doesn't mean that he can't play in different ones. As I said, look at Madrid's games, where he drifts inside, changes places with Puskas and del Sol; Not sure what a number 10 will bring out of him that Netzer doesn't.
Are you expecting him to drift inside here with Netzer and Brietner already present?
A number 10/SS gives him an extra option to find from the wing in scoring positions.

Let's agree to disagree.
Sure.

By the way, back to Zebec — what do you mean by wingback position in his case, as there weren't a wingback position at all when he played — there were full backs, half backs, center backs, outside/inside lefts... Or do you just go by the positions people compiling pes database put to his profile?
You mean like the Zebec shunning the great right winger Kopa example you gave without checking it? No, I don't do that to suit my case and ignore the comments when refuted.
Lets not steep down to condescending when the argument doesn't work in our favor. Cheers.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
You mean like the Zebec shunning the great right winger Kopa example you gave without checking it?
I'm still not sure what was wrong with it — I know and knew that he played not even as a midfielder, but as a forward, yet he was tasked with handling Kopa and he did it brilliantly. It highlight exactly the qualities that I wanted to highlight in him — even though he originally was a forward, even then he was well capable of fantastic defensive performances.

There are some managers here with whom I rarely agree, as we have different perception of football — I guess you're just one of them, considering on how many basic things we are disagreeing. Sorry if it feels condescending.
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
I'm still not sure what was wrong with it — I know and knew that he played not even as a midfielder, but as a forward, yet he was tasked with handling Kopa and he did it brilliantly. It highlight exactly the qualities that I wanted to highlight in him — even though he originally was a forward, even then he was well capable of fantastic defensive performances.
The argument was presented and from what I remember ignored.
He was #10 first and Inside Right second. I recall many articles on how frustrating he found being shunted to Outside Right (due to AdS) and the fact he never got utilized fully due to Real preferring to attacking through Gento on left. He had the dribbling and ball control, but not the pace to be be a true GOAT Outside Right.

Garrincha Jaizinho is an entirely different proposition to Kopa.
If handling someone in the centre makes you capable of doing the same at LB with the same impact was your argument, I agree, we hardly agree on the basics. Which is okay too :)
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
This is a man who completely nullified Raymond Kopa (another talented outside right, also a Ballon D'Or winner) when he was tasked to mark him
I know and knew that he played not even as a midfielder, but as a forward, yet he was tasked with handling Kopa and he did it brilliantly.
I believe you.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
I don't think Gento is a misfit here. From what I've seen from him he usually would've been a goalscoring LW if he played today, even more of a LWF rather than traditional outside left.

Could easily play in 4-3-3 ala Figo.

On a side note I'd definitely prefer a different type of striker if you have Gento and Finney on the wings.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
I believe you.
It was wrote in the same text everyone read about him on pes stats — I even linked it a few times, ffs :lol: It's not a genius research.

He occasionally played as a little bit defensive CF (very successfully). Against France he played as defensive CF, who had assignment to go back to defense, and guard Raymond Kopa (Real Madrid player at the time). He did that so successfully, that it seemed that Kopa didn't played at all.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
On a side note I'd definitely prefer a different type of striker if you have Gento and Finney on the wings.
Hoped for Kocsis originally, van Basten was also a dream that was blocked as soon as he got available though :lol:
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Hoped for Kocsis originally, van Basten was also a dream that was blocked as soon as he got available though :lol:
Aye, great to see also Zebec and Beara in your lineup.

Van Basten/Kocsis would definitely tilted it in your favor. Not only due to the wings, but I can see Netzer and Breitner really using the space with their splitting paces. Not sure how the RR went for you but Breitnigge would also be :drool:
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
I don't think Gento is a misfit here. From what I've seen from him he usually would've been a goalscoring LW if he played today, even more of a LWF rather than traditional outside left.
Always had the opposite impression based on what I had seen. Will have to watch a bit more when I get time.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,042
Location
Moscow
Funny how the vote went in waves. First, in a few hours, the score was 0:7 for Tuppet, and I thought that the game was as well as done; then there were an almost comeback to 12:14... And then the last 6 vote also went for Tuppet, making the lead quite significant.

Good luck in the final, @Tuppet. You were the team I wanted to avoid in the semis, but what can you do. Zico-Puskas are simply an amazing and unstoppable duo, Jairzinho and Giggs are a very good stylistic fit for them. The only serious criticism (and the only chance I've had against you) is your keeper, who is just not good enough — even for the first round, imo, let alone the semis. Good luck in the final, would be interesting to see who will you pick from my team.

Can't blame my luck or voters after how I've got through the last round :lol:

And by the way —
10 drafts, 20 semi-finals, how many times did you see Zico in these 20 games?
A semi-final won by Zico for you