The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft SF - harms vs. Tuppet

[2mufc0]

Funny how the vote went in waves. First, in a few hours, the score was 0:7 for Tuppet, and I thought that the game was as well as done; then there were an almost comeback to 12:14... And then the last 6 vote also went for Tuppet, making the lead quite significant.

Good luck in the final, @Tuppet. You were the team I wanted to avoid in the semis, but what can you do. Zico-Puskas are simply an amazing and unstoppable duo, Jairzinho and Giggs are a very good stylistic fit for them. The only serious criticism (and the only chance I've had against you) is your keeper, who is just not good enough — even for the first round, imo, let alone the semis. Good luck in the final, would be interesting to see who will you pick from my team.

Can't blame my luck or voters after how I've got through the last round

And by the way —

A semi-final won by Zico for you

Was about to post that .

Regarding the keeper i don't think its a massive issue, he's got 78 caps for his country which shows he's pretty competent, it's not like the guy Edgar had to play in the last draft with very little on him. He's also got excellent defenders too. In a last resort argument it's a point that can be made but wouldn't say it's critical for him. In a way deciding ties by GK ranking is the best way about it to reward a or punish a drafter.

 

[harms]

Was about to post that .

Regarding the keeper i don't think its a massive issue, he's got 78 caps for his country which shows he's pretty competent, it's not like the guy Edgar had to play in the last draft with very little on him. He's also got excellent defenders too. In a last resort argument it's a point that can be made but wouldn't say it's critical for him. In a way deciding ties by GK ranking is the best way about it to reward a or punish a drafter.

I watched highlights of something like 14-15 games — to a fan who is blessed by seeing De Gea every week, he was simply atrocious. Good shot stopper, but he had absolutely awful positioning and reading of the game. And this is an all-time semi-final, imagine having Ali Daei (149 caps, 109 goals) as your forward?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I watched highlights of something like 14-15 games — to a fan who is blessed by seeing De Gea every week, he was simply atrocious. Good shot stopper, but he had absolutely awful positioning and reading of the game. And this is an all-time semi-final, imagine having Ali Daei (149 caps, 109 goals) as your forward?

The disparity in quality between the GKs sealed my vote for you. He really didn't look good at all from the footage you posted, and in the abence of anything to contradict that he just didn't seem good enough for a SF in an all-time pool.

 

[2mufc0]

I watched highlights of something like 14-15 games — to a fan who is blessed by seeing De Gea every week, he was simply atrocious. Good shot stopper, but he had absolutely awful positioning and reading of the game. And this is an all-time semi-final, imagine having Ali Daei (149 caps, 109 goals) as your forward?

But even De Gea isn't faultless, despite his golden form you could pick out 10-15 mistakes if you wanted to and it's the same for any keeper. I think using 10-15 game sample from a player who's played 100's of matches isn't fair. He's played in world cups and the highest level domestically, granted i agree he's not Buffon or Yashin but hardly a bumbling fool.

 

[harms]

But even De Gea isn't faultless, despite his golden form you could pick out 10-15 mistakes if you wanted to and it's the same for any keeper. I think using 10-15 game sample from a player who's played 100's of matches isn't fair. He's played in world cups and the highest level domestically, granted i agree he's not Buffon or Yashin but hardly a bumbling fool.

He has played in World Cups — and you've seen the goals he conceded there, I posted them in the OP. What was he doing for the Lineker's goal? Or that lob by the Belgian? How do you should rate players if you can't base it on, say, 10-15 international games in the biggest tournaments?

 

[antohan]

Different and nothing to do with ABUs. If anything it was less "anything but United" and more "everyone bar United"... plus plenty of United fans.

The EC didn't clash with league games so nothing to do with the calendar and the FA were just being dinosaurs in the 50s but, the CWC did clash with the FACup and there was no way the FA should try to reschedule a cup tournament that had been going on for 127 years just because the UK government were pressurising United to play in the CWC to boost England's WC bid.

United should have told the Government to feck off and Fergie knew it was wrong at the time (he even called Blair, PM) but was powerless to fight it against the club/Govt even if he'd really wanted to argue the toss. The Premier League offered to extend the season to accommodate both but the club said no.

Busby wanted the EC as he could see it was progress and good for the world game and they could do BOTH. There's no way he'd have seen a moneymaking comp with no progress-value as coming above the FA cup.

You seem to remember it better, or more impartially, I was in England and moving to Rio just before the tourno so probably saw pro FA Cup pig-headedness all around me

It's only just now I realise it wasn't just moving a game (or playing the youth team, as it was the 5th round I think) but that the latter FA Cup dates were needed to catch up on missed PL games too.

 

[Ecstatic]

A semi-final won by Zico for you

Do the calculation and then you are the welcome to revert to me.

 

[antohan]

Jairzinho suddenly becomes overrated in drafts since he is facing a not so ideal match up in Zebec.
I am sure he would have been not so overrated if he was up against Maldini there.

It's nothing to do with this game or match up. He is overrated full stop. In fact, I was answering to you after you asked me how I saw those wing matchups isolated from this game.

To me Giggs and Finney are the best wingers on the park, but they also faced better fullbacks.

 

[antohan]

Regarding the keeper i don't think its a massive issue, he's got 78 caps for his country which shows he's pretty competent, it's not like the guy Edgar had to play in the last draft with very little on him. He's also got excellent defenders too. In a last resort argument it's a point that can be made but wouldn't say it's critical for him. In a way deciding ties by GK ranking is the best way about it to reward a or punish a drafter.

Artur Boruc has 65 caps for his country. He isn't EAPs circus act, but he doesn't belong here either.

I always felt Ever Almeida (Olimpia's ever present keeper) was a better choice for Paraguay, but I didn't get to see Fernández in the 70s or Paraguay's Copa América win so can't tell if he was so good early on or just lived off that trophy and the rep that came with it.

 

[Enigma_87]

Artur Boruc has 65 caps for his country. He isn't EAPs circus act, but he doesn't belong here either.

I always felt Ever Almeida (Olimpia's ever present keeper) was a better choice for Paraguay, but I didn't get to see Fernández in the 70s or Paraguay's Copa América win so can't tell if he was so good early on or just lived off that trophy and the rep that came with it.

To be fair Boruc really doesn't have competition. There aren't many Polish keepers around to take his place.

Don't know much about Fernandez, but from the video harms posted, he looks far from spectacular. Of course depends on when was his peak etc...

 

[antohan]

To be fair Boruc really doesn't have competition. There aren't many Polish keepers around to take his place.

Don't know much about Fernandez, but from the video harms posted, he looks far from spectacular. Of course depends on when was his peak etc...

Not too different really. As I said though, I largely saw a 30 year old Fernández, which isn't a great age for someone called "The Cat", which indicates he was more abput agility and reflexes than positional sense or commanding the area.

Chilavert, Justo Villar and Almeida were better IMO. Mind you, Almeida played most of hos career in Paraguay but wasn't born there so that likely didn't help.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

You seem to remember it better, or more impartially, I was in England and moving to Rio just before the tourno so probably saw pro FA Cup pig-headedness all around me

It's only just now I realise it wasn't just moving a game (or playing the youth team, as it was the 5th round I think) but that the latter FA Cup dates were needed to catch up on missed PL games too.

They could have tried some middle ground (take 3/4 of first team squad, leave 6-7 ok players, add some reserves) but that apparently wasn't an option.

Ferguson has since said that while he still regrets it, the tournament wasn't hard (for most games) and much better weather. End result was a decent season so sure club were happy.

Personally, I've always loved the FA Cup and think United should have stayed.....I wouldn't blame United for it's demise over last 10-20 years but couldn't have helped situation. Also made feck all difference to England WC bid too? (as if FIFA members would vote for an England WC?! .... when will England learn?)

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

@harms @Tuppet great teams/game, well done.

Merge teams (Beara, Liz, Moore, Kaiser, Santos, Rijkaard, Breitner, Zico, Giggs, Puskas, Finney) and make a half decent team?

 

[idmanager]

@harms @Tuppet great teams/game, well done.

Merge teams (Beara, Liz, Moore, Kaiser, Santos, Rijkaard, Breitner, Zico, Giggs, Puskas, Finney) and make a half decent team?

I'd put Gento ahead of Giggs there.
Kaiser+Moore is a pair that would generate decent debate as well.

 

[harms]

Puskas
Gento* Zico Finney
Rijkaard Breitner*
Lizarazu Moore Beckenbauer Thuram*
Beara
​

Thuram/Djalma is a coin-toss, it's really between those two if we're discussing defensive right backs. Plus Thuram's CB experience is even more valuable with Beckenbauer here. Lizarazu over Zebec is akin to Ruggeri over right — more of a known quality.

Rijkaard non-debatable, Breitner/Masopust is another coin-toss, went with the German as I rate his defensive game a bit better, and it's more important for this role.

Zico and Puskas are non-debatable, Gento goes in ahead of Giggs because of the Puskas link. Finney over Jairzinho as a personal preference.

edit: after I posted it I see that I've been, obviously, ridiculously biased Well...

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I'd put Gento ahead of Giggs there.
Kaiser+Moore is a pair that would generate decent debate as well.

Yeah.... I'll blame autocorrect.

Moore and Der Becks works fine for me.... and possible option looking at the reinforcements available? Seems popular option to have one tough CH/one 'passer' but when you're as good as these two, think it'd work fine? Also their timing was so good, unlikely they'd need many hard tackles.

Will he pick him ...... or a MFer?

 

[2mufc0]

Yeah.... I'll blame autocorrect.

Moore and Der Becks works fine for me.... and possible option looking at the reinforcements available? Seems popular option to have one tough CH/one 'passer' but when you're as good as these two, think it'd work fine? Also their timing was so good, unlikely they'd need many hard tackles.

Will he pick him ...... or a MFer?

Yeah, both elite level will work perfectly fine.

 

[Moby]

Moore next Beckenbauer is absolutely fine. He wasn't an adventurous sweeper exactly, and could definitely function as the last man in defense, quite brilliantly at that.

Also think people should give these good 'ol sweepers a break. Beckenbauer marauded forward when he had Vogts and Schwerzenbeck at the back knowing they'd cover - he won't be a lunatic doing the same if he has a different kind of support line and he is needed at the back more. There's a difference between Franz Beckenbauer and David Luiz.

He may be renowned for his quality on the ball but he is first and foremost regarded as the greatest defender that has ever lived. He can position himself at the defensive post and pretty much be a massive roadblock for whatever you can throw at him.