Agree this has been going on for a long time. As though the commercial side of the club has taken over and the football side is a sideline.
The general attitude of our players
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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We’re binning the two viruses (or is it three if you count Lingard?) but the petulant man-children in Ronaldo and Fernandes seem to play every single minute. Lovely stuff
some of you may rember Alan Smith. Limited but i loved his spirit.
He's an advisor on a fixed term contract. It's like when the FAI appointed Bobby Robson as Stan's assistant when he got the Ireland job.
Let's hire someone to tell our guys how to do their jobs. But don't bring anyone in from the outside to a high ranking position. It's the most American of attitudes.
Murtough certainly is the Director of Football. I would actually say the role differs from club to club depending on structure but he is clearly the #1 football guy in the club just now.
He's the one who comments on every contract signing with Fletch there as the former footballer for the photos.
They are too busy taking photos for their Instagrams in training. 'Winning side today', shame it's against a team of our own equally lazy players.
They used to kick lumps out of each other in training under SAF, this lot most of them will be throwing hissy fits if someone tackles them.
They used to kick lumps out of each other in training under SAF, this lot most of them will be throwing hissy fits if someone tackles them.
I think its time we moved away from playing big wages to players who dont deserve it and go down the route of 95/96. Look for hungry young players to replace these prima donnas. RR is probably ideal to know players who wont cost a fortune and can play the football he wants to play. Some may be able to step up from the reserves, but a lot would have to be bought in. We definitely need 2 CM in January as a minimum. I would rather miss out on top 4 this season and get the basics right to kick on, than scrape top 4 with this lot.
Our pressing stats from the Newcastle game. Its 1 match but still
McTominay had maybe his best game ever for presses? Highest I've seen anyway. So thats better from him
Dalot 21 from RB is a huge amount. TAA averages 9.04 so far this season...
Rashford had our 3rd most with 16 which is in line with most attackers at the top clubs who do some pressing. Salah and Mane average 14 and 13 respectively in the premier league this season which is low for Salah. The past 2 seasons he has averaged 17.3 and 16.2 per match.
Rashford's average is now 14.5 this season
Our numbers have been low in the past including Rashford's while Daniel James was ahead in this regard. Might explain why he played so many games, but still its a failing on other players part.
But in terms of the Newcastle game numbers wise McTominay, Dalot and Rashford stepped up... While we can see why Fred was taken off at half time. 9 presses in 45 minutes is a bit low for him
As for why it might not feel like we had as many presses as that? Timing and teamwork. You dont just need to press, you need to press at the right times. So despite Salah and Liverpool having less presses than that I think we'd all say that when they do go for the press its a lot more likely to force a mistake and for them to get something from it.
At least the numbers above show that for 1 match, some of these players can do the amount of pressing needed. But we need a lot of work on the other part of doing it as a team between 2 or 3 players and boxing an opponent into a bad situation rather than a player pressing on his own
Ronaldo coming back is a dream come true for me, but it feels like his presence has massively upset the balance in the dressing room. He looks angry things aren't going his way. I personally feel like Bruno is not happy to be playing second fiddle to Ronaldo once again, especially after giving so much in the past couple of years. Rashford looks like he doesn't even care at this point. Pogba is completely checked out. VdB is probably very demotivated and frustrated, he can't even make it as a sub now.
The atmosphere, at least to me, seems miserable. We need to get rid of a lot of players and bring back new ones who actually want to win. Pogba, Lingard, Mata, VdB, Matic, Martial need to go. Rashford too if he is done with football. It feels like we find ourselves where we were after Mourinho departed. Again.
The atmosphere, at least to me, seems miserable. We need to get rid of a lot of players and bring back new ones who actually want to win. Pogba, Lingard, Mata, VdB, Matic, Martial need to go. Rashford too if he is done with football. It feels like we find ourselves where we were after Mourinho departed. Again.
Bruno's always been a whinger. If I was not supporting United he'd be the player I dislike the most in the league.
For me it all went south when we lost Fergie and Gills system of researching players mentality and habits before signing them. Over the years we've accumulated squads filled with the wrong personalities.
Currently I think we have a few factors contributing to the performances we're seeing. I think we have frustration at the lack of ability and effort of others, frustration coming from Ronaldo/Bruno.
The lack of ability from the likes of Fred/Mctominay to find the players making runs, watched it time and again last night Fred making safe 5 yard passes rather than find the front players making runs, same with Mctominay. Same with Maguire so slow on the ball to make a forward pass, watched Varane get the ball and pass it forward in half the time Maguire did.
Then I think you have a few players just not willing to work as hard as they should be Rashford does it in spurts, Ronaldo the same, Greenwood too all have no consistency in their pressing.
You add all the above to frustrations at team mates making mistakes, losing possession, not making passes, not grafting and it's a mess.
Ronaldo and Bruno are fed up but rather than lead by example, the toys are out the pram.
I think alot of frustrations would be lifted by signing 2 cm's who can actually find there team mates in more advanced positions alot quicker.
No surprise Fred was replaced at half time and Bruno dropped deeper, and ended up playing alot better, Ragnick likes the quick ball forward to take advantage of opposition recovering after the transition, but some players don't have the quality of first touch or passing abilities to play to the requirement of this.
Long post but just my thoughts
Currently I think we have a few factors contributing to the performances we're seeing. I think we have frustration at the lack of ability and effort of others, frustration coming from Ronaldo/Bruno.
The lack of ability from the likes of Fred/Mctominay to find the players making runs, watched it time and again last night Fred making safe 5 yard passes rather than find the front players making runs, same with Mctominay. Same with Maguire so slow on the ball to make a forward pass, watched Varane get the ball and pass it forward in half the time Maguire did.
Then I think you have a few players just not willing to work as hard as they should be Rashford does it in spurts, Ronaldo the same, Greenwood too all have no consistency in their pressing.
You add all the above to frustrations at team mates making mistakes, losing possession, not making passes, not grafting and it's a mess.
Ronaldo and Bruno are fed up but rather than lead by example, the toys are out the pram.
I think alot of frustrations would be lifted by signing 2 cm's who can actually find there team mates in more advanced positions alot quicker.
No surprise Fred was replaced at half time and Bruno dropped deeper, and ended up playing alot better, Ragnick likes the quick ball forward to take advantage of opposition recovering after the transition, but some players don't have the quality of first touch or passing abilities to play to the requirement of this.
Long post but just my thoughts
Ronaldo with 1 successful press in 90 minutes and basically zero defensive work all game.Our pressing stats from the Newcastle game. Its 1 match but still
Our pressing stats from the Newcastle game. Its 1 match but still
McTominay had maybe his best game ever for presses? Highest I've seen anyway. So thats better from him
Dalot 21 from RB is a huge amount. TAA averages 9.04 so far this season...
Rashford had our 3rd most with 16 which is in line with most attackers at the top clubs who do some pressing. Salah and Mane average 14 and 13 respectively in the premier league this season which is low for Salah. The past 2 seasons he has averaged 17.3 and 16.2 per match.
Rashford's average is now 14.5 this season
Our numbers have been low in the past including Rashford's while Daniel James was ahead in this regard. Might explain why he played so many games, but still its a failing on other players part.
But in terms of the Newcastle game numbers wise McTominay, Dalot and Rashford stepped up... While we can see why Fred was taken off at half time. 9 presses in 45 minutes is a bit low for him
As for why it might not feel like we had as many presses as that? Timing and teamwork. You dont just need to press, you need to press at the right times. So despite Salah and Liverpool having less presses than that I think we'd all say that when they do go for the press its a lot more likely to force a mistake and for them to get something from it.
At least the numbers above show that for 1 match, some of these players can do the amount of pressing needed. But we need a lot of work on the other part of doing it as a team between 2 or 3 players and boxing an opponent into a bad situation rather than a player pressing on his own
On the site your on, there's a possession tab at the top can you click it and show us the possession stats
I'm intrigued who in the team is losing possession so much, as I think this is a huge cause for frustration in the team and alot of finger pointing between the players
Had a look
Bruno and Rashford lost possession 46 times between themselves.
The list is huge, we just don't have the players to play the style of football ragnick wants
Bruno and Rashford lost possession 46 times between themselves.
The list is huge, we just don't have the players to play the style of football ragnick wants
The way these players pay you could swear we were under about to go into admin and they hadn't been paid for weeks!
Horrendous attitudes that have been allowed and accepted by the powers that be for far too long.
Talented or not there are several players who should be moved on now due to horrendous attitudes - Maguire, Rashford, Lingard, Shaw, Martial and Pogba.
Followed by the following for being escaped Grimsby squad players - Telles, Dalot, Fred, McTominay, Matic, Jones and Mata
That's shameful that a club, any club has almost a whole squad worth of players not fit for purpose - id wager there is several million in wages per month there which could be invested far more wisely
Horrendous attitudes that have been allowed and accepted by the powers that be for far too long.
Talented or not there are several players who should be moved on now due to horrendous attitudes - Maguire, Rashford, Lingard, Shaw, Martial and Pogba.
Followed by the following for being escaped Grimsby squad players - Telles, Dalot, Fred, McTominay, Matic, Jones and Mata
That's shameful that a club, any club has almost a whole squad worth of players not fit for purpose - id wager there is several million in wages per month there which could be invested far more wisely
Sancho did very well to come on and in 45 minutes give the ball away so much. Yes he was trying things, and he was at the heart of a lot of the few good moves we had, but like so many, so untidy on the ball.
It’s sad to see these insanely paid players not even bust a lung now and then during the matches. The least you expect from a player is to try on the pitch. To cover for your teammate, to actually try to get into 50/50 situations. But our players don’t seem to care one bit.
We have
This is the core of our team, and supposedly the more experienced players. I honestly can’t think of one player in our team who we can look up to or appreciate this season. Shambles all around.
We have
- Ronaldo who can’t be bothered to press and moans a lot (at least he has great movement and offers goals).
- Rashford - seems to think he is the second coming of Ronaldo, but doesn’t have the skills, talent, output, trophies or work rate to match that claim.
- Bruno - works hard, moans harder and then proceeds to treat every pass as a through ball in FIFA.
- McTominay - hard man off the ball, always hides when we have the ball. Can only seem to pass sideways or back.
- Maguire - our 80M captain. The most (un)inspiring leader and a complete (liability of a) player.
This is the core of our team, and supposedly the more experienced players. I honestly can’t think of one player in our team who we can look up to or appreciate this season. Shambles all around.
Atm De Gea is the only player i respect. The rest are a bunch of overpaid primadonnas who either doesnt care, or are just not good enough. (but think they are).
Toxic dressing room.
I know some players arent good enough, but there is no togetherness or working as a team to solve problems or build confidence.
The bigger names need to show some leadership and stop blame shifting
I know some players arent good enough, but there is no togetherness or working as a team to solve problems or build confidence.
The bigger names need to show some leadership and stop blame shifting
This is a long term problem that was actually going away under Ole. We didn’t play well at the end of last season and we know what a shambles this season has been but Ole is not to blame for last night or for the players not doing what RR is asking of them.
Ronaldo has scored a load of goals for us and I wouldn’t dream of blaming him for the other players being shit. But I don’t think we needed him, we bought him for the wrong reasons and we disrupted Ole’s plans and the longer term development of the squad.
The terrible attitude of the players is brought to the surface by a combination of low confidence, poor form and fundamentally low quality in key positions (basically CM). RR can sort most of this by making brave (even unpopular) decisions (plus making signings in CM); and he will start rotating Ronaldo, I am sure (if he is allowed to, but that’s another matter).
Ronaldo has scored a load of goals for us and I wouldn’t dream of blaming him for the other players being shit. But I don’t think we needed him, we bought him for the wrong reasons and we disrupted Ole’s plans and the longer term development of the squad.
The terrible attitude of the players is brought to the surface by a combination of low confidence, poor form and fundamentally low quality in key positions (basically CM). RR can sort most of this by making brave (even unpopular) decisions (plus making signings in CM); and he will start rotating Ronaldo, I am sure (if he is allowed to, but that’s another matter).
Re Murtough I remember an Athletic article about his role - he’s not a DoF in the way most clubs have one (Leonardo, Monchi, Tixi) it sounds like he’s a weird mix of ops and then got added into the transfer committee in that Judge reports onto him as director of football negotiations, no one really knows what Fletcher or Phelan do. Glazers won’t appoint a traditional DoF because I guess they don’t want one person in control of transfers which I don’t necessarily disagree with as long as you hire competent people.
My only hope is there was a lot of talk about RR turning down roles where he wasn’t guaranteed power to change things. The fact he’s taken this job hopefully means he got contractual assurances of being able to have an influence.
You are absolutely right.
For all the problems LvG had with the players (not doing homework etc.) I don’t remember us being an especially lazy side. This is something that was allowed to develop under Jose; @Pogue Mahone created a thread about it.
Ole recognised it, and called them out for it. After a terrible defeat at Everton, I think. Sadly he seemed completely unable to do anything about it.
We missed a massive trick in snubbing conte yet again. There is no way the players no matter their star status would have got away with having a bad attitude.
It amazes me that this club snubbed conte twice in favour of ole both times, absolute madness.
It amazes me that this club snubbed conte twice in favour of ole both times, absolute madness.
So that tab is more about what players are doing with the ball rather than counting specifically how many times they lose it. As such I havent sorted the table by any metric
We had 67% of the ball overall so I wouldnt say we lost it a lot. Its more than we would make little progress through the Newcastle team into dangerous areas, so Bruno would come a bit deeper to get on the ball and he had mixed success with his early crosses and balls around the box attempting to set up chances. IIRC one of his longer passes from the DM position he was moved to set up Dalot on the right to pull the ball back for Cavani's goal. But I would say there were several of his passes and crosses were wayward overall and it took him some time to calm down and keep the ball a bit after he was moved into DM at half time too.
The thing is other than Bruno playing those early crosses and passes trying to get players in, none of our attacking players really try to do them and make things happen. Usually its dribbles and short low risk passes in buildup and then we get the ball out wide to the fullbacks for them to try and put the cross in. So Fernandes is certainly frustrating because you'll see him play some 5/10 passes attempting to get a player in a dangerous position, but then when he finally gets it right its an 8/10 or more and leads to our best chances and goals. He has a bit of Nani about him in that way. And other than him nobody is even trying to do it. Thats where we miss Pogba because when he played well he would be looking for those passes too
We can all clearly see that we have the laziest most entitled squad of players in the league, but what is being done about it?
Drop the feckers that aren’t doing what’s being asked of them and give chances to players that will! It’s not rocket science- give players places in the team on merit!
Drop the feckers that aren’t doing what’s being asked of them and give chances to players that will! It’s not rocket science- give players places in the team on merit!
Bench them. No matter who they are
It's time to get tough fast. The next player to roll about on the floor when not hurt, throw their arms around looking for a freekick rather than closing down or gesticulate at a teammate gets subbed, then and there.
Have to say it was pretty bad last night. Newcastle were the better team but the attitude and gesticulating of our players was shocking. From Ronaldo constantly shaking his head and muttering to Bruno waving his arms around like Swan Lake to Rashford standing like a lampost. The players who do show a good attitude are not good enough, Fred Mctom, Maguire, Dalot. So bad. Really surprised Ralf has shaken this up already, but with covid there may be underlying reasons with his selection.
Same with Rafael.
What a waste of time the cultural reset was, three years and quarter of a billion spent to go from a toxic manager to a toxic squad.
It’s a mix of everything. We need to acknowledge that the results of the extreme incompetence of Solskjær is going to take a long time to correct. Over months, we will look and perform better.
You could say it about most of the squad players we had during Ferguson's tenure. What they lacked in ability they made up for with hard work and mental resilience.
I'd back a team made up of players like O'Shea, Fletcher, Park, Butt, Smith to batter our current first team.
Some in the thread are looking at Ronnies pressing, given what Cavani did in less time it doesnt look good. I'm more concerned with Fred and Maguires pressing stats which are terrible for their positions.
The players you mentioned would probably have developed bad attitudes under Ole too.
The difference is SAF had zero tolerance to that shit and it was never allowed to manifest in any of his squads.
Players good enough for a title challenging side:
DDG
Cavani
Ronaldo (he has high expectations and looks like there can not be a chemistry between him and "lesser" players)
Varane (assumption is that Newcastle game was an exception)
Fred (but only as a squad player)
Shaw (but not in his current form)
Bruno (should and would be benched)
Lindelof (at least as a squad player)
Dalot (as a backup)
AWB (as a squad player only for situations when you need to park the bus)
Pogba (but should not be undroppable)
Players NOT good enough for a title challenging side:
Maguire (only as a backup)
McT
Telles
Martial
Rashford (after his major injury)
Lingard (great for any midtable team, would be ok as a backup but he want high wages and first team football)
Matic (I would keep him as a backup)
Mata (keep him for his future role at United)
Jones
Early to say:
Sancho (unproven in EPL, talent is there obviously)
5mins Donny (has been here for a long time, but never had the backing of the likes of Rashford or Bruno - benched after the first bad game)
Bailly (always injured)
other youngsters
DDG
Cavani
Ronaldo (he has high expectations and looks like there can not be a chemistry between him and "lesser" players)
Varane (assumption is that Newcastle game was an exception)
Fred (but only as a squad player)
Shaw (but not in his current form)
Bruno (should and would be benched)
Lindelof (at least as a squad player)
Dalot (as a backup)
AWB (as a squad player only for situations when you need to park the bus)
Pogba (but should not be undroppable)
Players NOT good enough for a title challenging side:
Maguire (only as a backup)
McT
Telles
Martial
Rashford (after his major injury)
Lingard (great for any midtable team, would be ok as a backup but he want high wages and first team football)
Matic (I would keep him as a backup)
Mata (keep him for his future role at United)
Jones
Early to say:
Sancho (unproven in EPL, talent is there obviously)
5mins Donny (has been here for a long time, but never had the backing of the likes of Rashford or Bruno - benched after the first bad game)
Bailly (always injured)
other youngsters
We lack players like Mount. Good (but not amazing) technically and hard working. Will listen to his coaches and do what they say. And when I say Mount I mean Mount level of players and not Dan James level or something (as starter).
Now of course Chelsea have a few good and hard working players but not necessarily a world class attacking player.
Whereas we have some really talented players but over a season decent to good level of talent, motivation and hard work will beat players with a few world class games or moments combined with a lot of lazy or below average moments and inconsistency.
Fans love making fun of Mount but I bet he would be on the wishlist of most world class managers.
Now of course Chelsea have a few good and hard working players but not necessarily a world class attacking player.
Whereas we have some really talented players but over a season decent to good level of talent, motivation and hard work will beat players with a few world class games or moments combined with a lot of lazy or below average moments and inconsistency.
Fans love making fun of Mount but I bet he would be on the wishlist of most world class managers.
This is the thing. I appreciate Bruno lost possession more as he's trying to play to Ragnicks liking which in itself is football with an element of risk reward. It's why Fred was taking off as he wasn't progressive enough with his passing. What I'm seeing is the reactions to people giving the ball away, I think the reactions are very negative and it's affecting performances.So that tab is more about what players are doing with the ball rather than counting specifically how many times they lose it. As such I havent sorted the table by any metric
We had 67% of the ball overall so I wouldnt say we lost it a lot. Its more than we would make little progress through the Newcastle team into dangerous areas, so Bruno would come a bit deeper to get on the ball and he had mixed success with his early crosses and balls around the box attempting to set up chances. IIRC one of his longer passes from the DM position he was moved to set up Dalot on the right to pull the ball back for Cavani's goal. But I would say there were several of his passes and crosses were wayward overall and it took him some time to calm down and keep the ball a bit after he was moved into DM at half time too.
The thing is other than Bruno playing those early crosses and passes trying to get players in, none of our attacking players really try to do them and make things happen. Usually its dribbles and short low risk passes in buildup and then we get the ball out wide to the fullbacks for them to try and put the cross in. So Fernandes is certainly frustrating because you'll see him play some 5/10 passes attempting to get a player in a dangerous position, but then when he finally gets it right its an 8/10 or more and leads to our best chances and goals. He has a bit of Nani about him in that way. And other than him nobody is even trying to do it. Thats where we miss Pogba because when he played well he would be looking for those passes too
I can gladly accept some of Brunos loss of possession as he's trying balls that as you say if they work result in goals.
It's the countless other times we give the ball away, and I'm talking example of putting a simple through ball in behind the fullback for the winger to run onto, players are passing it straight to the fullback. When you accumulate last night's stats on where we gave the ball away rather than make a straightforward quick pass you can see why players are getting frustrated and de motivated.
Not enough quality in the deep midfield areas, also Rashford is very careless in decision making, and Bruno doesn't have much consistency in his passing accuracy over both short and long range.
It's a problem.
Were crying out for someone like Jorginho from Chelsea.
What's James Garner doing these days, whys he not getting minutes over matic and Fred?
Not to mention I think he had about 26 touches of the ball all game
I’ve said before you have Ronaldo, Bruno, Greenwood and Rashford, all of which don’t provide the defence with any support.
A midfield of McTominay and Fred who both run out of position to chase balls. If they don’t win the challenge there is 30 yards of space for the opposition to run into. In this era of football nearly all clubs play 3 in midfield. We lose this key battle before a ball is even kicked, without considering the inferior quality we have in central midfield. Bruno should have dropped deeper by now but he’s still playing like a false 9.
In addition we have two CB who take an age on the ball. Whether that’s because of the lack of runs, central midfield not providing an option or just the fact Maguire is terribly slow I’m not sure. Probably a combination of all 3.
This team lacks any balance. If we are going to buy anyone in January it has to be a solid central midfielder. I really thought Rangnick would come in and drop the underperforming players but absolutely nothing has changed, other than playing more players out of position. Drop Rashford, Bruno and Maguire who have been underperforming for months. Make them work themselves back into the team at the very least.
A midfield of McTominay and Fred who both run out of position to chase balls. If they don’t win the challenge there is 30 yards of space for the opposition to run into. In this era of football nearly all clubs play 3 in midfield. We lose this key battle before a ball is even kicked, without considering the inferior quality we have in central midfield. Bruno should have dropped deeper by now but he’s still playing like a false 9.
In addition we have two CB who take an age on the ball. Whether that’s because of the lack of runs, central midfield not providing an option or just the fact Maguire is terribly slow I’m not sure. Probably a combination of all 3.
This team lacks any balance. If we are going to buy anyone in January it has to be a solid central midfielder. I really thought Rangnick would come in and drop the underperforming players but absolutely nothing has changed, other than playing more players out of position. Drop Rashford, Bruno and Maguire who have been underperforming for months. Make them work themselves back into the team at the very least.
If I could insert a pic I'd show you the lost possession stats, they are ridiculous
168 times we gave the ball away.
Huge lack of quality at the minute.
Decision making
Passing quality
Winning the physical battles
Attitude
Motivation
Mentality
168 times we gave the ball away.
Huge lack of quality at the minute.
Decision making
Passing quality
Winning the physical battles
Attitude
Motivation
Mentality
Agree with this. Out of our 'core', it's only really De Gea that's living up to expectations.
I have been on McT's case forever but I think even if his skill does not match our club, he's clearly trying to improve and is definitely one of the players I can see getting better.
He should be a squad option but if others were moving in the same direction form-wise, we wouldn't have this issue.
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