The Green Shoots of Recovery: Lessons Learned - Patience Imperative!

Lentwood

Full Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
6,834
Location
West Didsbury, Manchester
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.

Let's just make a couple of my opinions clear before I make my points;

- The Glazer takeover has done immeasurable damage to Manchester United, they are blood-thirsty, cretinous, uber-Capitalist parasites who have contributed NOTHING to this club

- Ed Woodward may be, in some sense of the word, a 'smart' man, however, when referring solely to his skills at running the operations of a modern day football club, he is an incompetent buffoon

HOWEVER

As I stated earlier in my post, we cannot, as fans, have our cake and eat it. Over the last six years, the Glazers and Ed have been RIGHTFULLY criticised for;

- Failing to understand the 'United DNA'
- Failing to invest between 2005 and 2014
- Looking for 'quick fixes' as opposed to long-term strategic planning
- Throwing money at mercenary footballers who perform better on Instagram and Twitter than they do on the field
- Sacking managers who are basically hung out to dry, effectively fighting a war against an armoured tank division with what has amounted to water pistols
- Employing managers who's very footballing ethos goes against 'the United way'

NOW

If you look at what the Glazers and Ed have done over the last 12-18 months, it would appear to me that somewhere, somehow, they have had an epiphany. It would appear to me at least that there has been a total shift in mindset and that the foundations are now (hopefully) being laid for a better future....what makes me say this?

- The club have done what they should have been doing for the last six years and signed the best two AVAILABLE 'young' players in their position from the PL (Maguire and Wan-Bissaka)

- The club have let go of several players who, whilst admittedly may have contributed to varying degrees over the last few seasons, were NEVER really Manchester United players. Either in terms of personality or ability. I am talking here about your Fellaini's, Sanchez's, Lukaku's, Herrera's and HOPEFULLY Rojo's, Darmian's etc...

- The club refused to bow to Dybala's wage demands NOT because we couldn't afford them but because we felt he was joining for the WRONG reasons

- The club immediately distanced themselves from the usual press speculation about signing players like Bale and Neymar

- The club moved to sign a young player with potential from the Championship. Something we never had to do in the past because we were by far the most resource-rich team in the league. Roman, Sheikh Mansour and TV money has changed that.

- They have appointed Ole, a man who understands Manchester United and its History

Now, I can feel the NuFootball lot gnashing their teeth.....'but what about squad depth' they cry....'how will we cope with only three senior forwards', furthermore 'Ole is a novice, a Glazer yes-man with no more tactical nous than a cabbage'. They also bang on about 'net spend' and 'not replacing Player X'.....well I have an answer to all of the above and that is that this situation we are in now is going to have to get A LOT worse before it gets better and I believe the club finally appreciate this. Here's what I think the club have realised;

- A senior football manager like a Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of what we need right now. We cannot afford to spend the £800m+ I believe it would take to transform us into title contenders in one window and therefore we would end up in another situation whereby we have a frustrated manager sat in the dugout, constantly firing shots at the Board and at the players. We do not need this right now. What we need is a positive man, a man who understands the club and his role within it, a man who admittedly, to a certain extent, is happy just to be here. That man is Ole. Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there? I highly doubt it. I believe the Board see Ole as a man who can oversee this painful transitional period with a smile, whilst just about managing to keep just enough players and fans on-side to make it bearable. At the point were we ARE ready to start challenging for titles again, I believe Ole will make way for a more senior, tactical aware manager who will then go to war with a proper squad of footballers.

- Signing mercenaries and expecting players who performed well for other teams in other positions/formations/styles to slot straight in and produce a 'quick fix' is NOT the way forward. This never, ever works. All of the very best teams are constructed, not bought in one window. What we need now is to identify the right players at the right age and steadily, over the course of four or five windows, build a team. We will lose players like De Gea and Pogba along the way, but this is a hangover of poor choices made in the past. In De Gea's case, we wasted his best years and his powers are now waning. In Pogba's, we failed to find the right players to get the best out of him and keep him happy in a side challenging for trophies. He won't want to, nor should he, waste two/three more seasons pissing about in 6th. This will make it more difficult to build a strong squad but IF we keep identifying the RIGHT players, at the RIGHT age and adding two/three at a time, it ought only be three seasons max before we can at least compete for second

- We need to get rid of the players who don't WANT to be here or who are not good enough to be here as quickly as possible, even if we don't have replacements lined up. A common mistake the NuFootball lot make is that they have gained their experience of buying and selling football players from Football Manager 2018. They think you can simply transfer list 12 players, sell them for asking price before July and spend the money on 5 replacements. Sorry but this is so far from the reality it's laughable. Selling players is almost as complicated as buying players for a club like Manchester United. Our players by default are on big wages and by virtue of the fact we want to sell them, it's unlikely other clubs who could afford their wages would touch them with a barge pole. That means that IF the club identify that Lukaku is NOT the striker to take us forward as a club and there is an offer of £75m on the table, then we HAVE to take it whether a replacement is lined up or not. Does this weaken us short-term? Of course it does, because right now Lukaku and Sanchez are better players than Greenwood, however, next window and the window after we SHOULD have cash, wages and squad positions free to target the players I outlined earlier - the best young players from the PL (and the odd one from elsewhere) in their positions.

So in summary, I believe;

- The Glazers and Ed have learned something from the Jose debacle and the last 6yrs
- Ole is basically a 'long-term caretaker' overseeing the transition phase
- Money IS available but we won't just throw it around anymore. NOT a bad thing at all.
- The club want to get back to signing two/three top young, hungry players at a time, as opposed to hordes of mediocre 'established' footballers (and I include your Lo Celso's and Ndombele's and Icardi's and Fernandes' in that 'hordes of mediocre' category)

However, that all being said, in terms of league position and points gained, this season IS going to be very, very painful. We've left ourselves very thin, our squad is lacking in quality and we have a manager who doesn't appear to have much tactical nous. What we need to appreciate as fans is that this is a result of poor choices made between 2005 and 2018 and just repeating these poor choices MIGHT scrape us 4th on the odd occasion but will never get us back to where we want to be. For that, we need open heart surgery and unfortunately, where going to be very weak for a while before HOPEFULLY making a full recovery

Patience is a virtue. Don't come on here wailing every time we lose one football match. Understand the big picture. Still appreciate the damage that the Glazers and Ed have done to our club. Let's just hope that the green shoots on display are not a mirage!
 

Amarsdd

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
3,299
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.
I don't think you can describe them any better than that.

Anyway, great post and hopefully every one not only reads it but also thinks about it and see the sense in it. They won't.
 

VeevaVee

The worst "V"
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
46,261
Location
Manchester
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match
Are you sure this is the same people as you say, or different posters having different opinions?
 

Velvet Revolver

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
1,354
Location
Inside Scholes's Brain
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.

Let's just make a couple of my opinions clear before I make my points;

- The Glazer takeover has done immeasurable damage to Manchester United, they are blood-thirsty, cretinous, uber-Capitalist parasites who have contributed NOTHING to this club

- Ed Woodward may be, in some sense of the word, a 'smart' man, however, when referring solely to his skills at running the operations of a modern day football club, he is an incompetent buffoon

HOWEVER

As I stated earlier in my post, we cannot, as fans, have our cake and eat it. Over the last six years, the Glazers and Ed have been RIGHTFULLY criticised for;

- Failing to understand the 'United DNA'
- Failing to invest between 2005 and 2014
- Looking for 'quick fixes' as opposed to long-term strategic planning
- Throwing money at mercenary footballers who perform better on Instagram and Twitter than they do on the field
- Sacking managers who are basically hung out to dry, effectively fighting a war against an armoured tank division with what has amounted to water pistols
- Employing managers who's very footballing ethos goes against 'the United way'

NOW

If you look at what the Glazers and Ed have done over the last 12-18 months, it would appear to me that somewhere, somehow, they have had an epiphany. It would appear to me at least that there has been a total shift in mindset and that the foundations are now (hopefully) being laid for a better future....what makes me say this?

- The club have done what they should have been doing for the last six years and signed the best two AVAILABLE 'young' players in their position from the PL (Maguire and Wan-Bissaka)

- The club have let go of several players who, whilst admittedly may have contributed to varying degrees over the last few seasons, were NEVER really Manchester United players. Either in terms of personality or ability. I am talking here about your Fellaini's, Sanchez's, Lukaku's, Herrera's and HOPEFULLY Rojo's, Darmian's etc...

- The club refused to bow to Dybala's wage demands NOT because we couldn't afford them but because we felt he was joining for the WRONG reasons

- The club immediately distanced themselves from the usual press speculation about signing players like Bale and Neymar

- The club moved to sign a young player with potential from the Championship. Something we never had to do in the past because we were by far the most resource-rich team in the league. Roman, Sheikh Mansour and TV money has changed that.

- They have appointed Ole, a man who understands Manchester United and its History

Now, I can feel the NuFootball lot gnashing their teeth.....'but what about squad depth' they cry....'how will we cope with only three senior forwards', furthermore 'Ole is a novice, a Glazer yes-man with no more tactical nous than a cabbage'. They also bang on about 'net spend' and 'not replacing Player X'.....well I have an answer to all of the above and that is that this situation we are in now is going to have to get A LOT worse before it gets better and I believe the club finally appreciate this. Here's what I think the club have realised;

- A senior football manager like a Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of what we need right now. We cannot afford to spend the £800m+ I believe it would take to transform us into title contenders in one window and therefore we would end up in another situation whereby we have a frustrated manager sat in the dugout, constantly firing shots at the Board and at the players. We do not need this right now. What we need is a positive man, a man who understands the club and his role within it, a man who admittedly, to a certain extent, is happy just to be here. That man is Ole. Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there? I highly doubt it. I believe the Board see Ole as a man who can oversee this painful transitional period with a smile, whilst just about managing to keep just enough players and fans on-side to make it bearable. At the point were we ARE ready to start challenging for titles again, I believe Ole will make way for a more senior, tactical aware manager who will then go to war with a proper squad of footballers.

- Signing mercenaries and expecting players who performed well for other teams in other positions/formations/styles to slot straight in and produce a 'quick fix' is NOT the way forward. This never, ever works. All of the very best teams are constructed, not bought in one window. What we need now is to identify the right players at the right age and steadily, over the course of four or five windows, build a team. We will lose players like De Gea and Pogba along the way, but this is a hangover of poor choices made in the past. In De Gea's case, we wasted his best years and his powers are now waning. In Pogba's, we failed to find the right players to get the best out of him and keep him happy in a side challenging for trophies. He won't want to, nor should he, waste two/three more seasons pissing about in 6th. This will make it more difficult to build a strong squad but IF we keep identifying the RIGHT players, at the RIGHT age and adding two/three at a time, it ought only be three seasons max before we can at least compete for second

- We need to get rid of the players who don't WANT to be here or who are not good enough to be here as quickly as possible, even if we don't have replacements lined up. A common mistake the NuFootball lot make is that they have gained their experience of buying and selling football players from Football Manager 2018. They think you can simply transfer list 12 players, sell them for asking price before July and spend the money on 5 replacements. Sorry but this is so far from the reality it's laughable. Selling players is almost as complicated as buying players for a club like Manchester United. Our players by default are on big wages and by virtue of the fact we want to sell them, it's unlikely other clubs who could afford their wages would touch them with a barge pole. That means that IF the club identify that Lukaku is NOT the striker to take us forward as a club and there is an offer of £75m on the table, then we HAVE to take it whether a replacement is lined up or not. Does this weaken us short-term? Of course it does, because right now Lukaku and Sanchez are better players than Greenwood, however, next window and the window after we SHOULD have cash, wages and squad positions free to target the players I outlined earlier - the best young players from the PL (and the odd one from elsewhere) in their positions.

So in summary, I believe;

- The Glazers and Ed have learned something from the Jose debacle and the last 6yrs
- Ole is basically a 'long-term caretaker' overseeing the transition phase
- Money IS available but we won't just throw it around anymore. NOT a bad thing at all.
- The club want to get back to signing two/three top young, hungry players at a time, as opposed to hordes of mediocre 'established' footballers (and I include your Lo Celso's and Ndombele's and Icardi's and Fernandes' in that 'hordes of mediocre' category)

However, that all being said, in terms of league position and points gained, this season IS going to be very, very painful. We've left ourselves very thin, our squad is lacking in quality and we have a manager who doesn't appear to have much tactical nous. What we need to appreciate as fans is that this is a result of poor choices made between 2005 and 2018 and just repeating these poor choices MIGHT scrape us 4th on the odd occasion but will never get us back to where we want to be. For that, we need open heart surgery and unfortunately, where going to be very weak for a while before HOPEFULLY making a full recovery

Patience is a virtue. Don't come on here wailing every time we lose one football match. Understand the big picture. Still appreciate the damage that the Glazers and Ed have done to our club. Let's just hope that the green shoots on display are not a mirage!
Summed it up beautifully.. now we wait for the nufootbal fans to bring their smart ass theories of how you are wrong!
 

Crimson King

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
3,083
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.

Let's just make a couple of my opinions clear before I make my points;

- The Glazer takeover has done immeasurable damage to Manchester United, they are blood-thirsty, cretinous, uber-Capitalist parasites who have contributed NOTHING to this club

- Ed Woodward may be, in some sense of the word, a 'smart' man, however, when referring solely to his skills at running the operations of a modern day football club, he is an incompetent buffoon

HOWEVER

As I stated earlier in my post, we cannot, as fans, have our cake and eat it. Over the last six years, the Glazers and Ed have been RIGHTFULLY criticised for;

- Failing to understand the 'United DNA'
- Failing to invest between 2005 and 2014
- Looking for 'quick fixes' as opposed to long-term strategic planning
- Throwing money at mercenary footballers who perform better on Instagram and Twitter than they do on the field
- Sacking managers who are basically hung out to dry, effectively fighting a war against an armoured tank division with what has amounted to water pistols
- Employing managers who's very footballing ethos goes against 'the United way'

NOW

If you look at what the Glazers and Ed have done over the last 12-18 months, it would appear to me that somewhere, somehow, they have had an epiphany. It would appear to me at least that there has been a total shift in mindset and that the foundations are now (hopefully) being laid for a better future....what makes me say this?

- The club have done what they should have been doing for the last six years and signed the best two AVAILABLE 'young' players in their position from the PL (Maguire and Wan-Bissaka)

- The club have let go of several players who, whilst admittedly may have contributed to varying degrees over the last few seasons, were NEVER really Manchester United players. Either in terms of personality or ability. I am talking here about your Fellaini's, Sanchez's, Lukaku's, Herrera's and HOPEFULLY Rojo's, Darmian's etc...

- The club refused to bow to Dybala's wage demands NOT because we couldn't afford them but because we felt he was joining for the WRONG reasons

- The club immediately distanced themselves from the usual press speculation about signing players like Bale and Neymar

- The club moved to sign a young player with potential from the Championship. Something we never had to do in the past because we were by far the most resource-rich team in the league. Roman, Sheikh Mansour and TV money has changed that.

- They have appointed Ole, a man who understands Manchester United and its History

Now, I can feel the NuFootball lot gnashing their teeth.....'but what about squad depth' they cry....'how will we cope with only three senior forwards', furthermore 'Ole is a novice, a Glazer yes-man with no more tactical nous than a cabbage'. They also bang on about 'net spend' and 'not replacing Player X'.....well I have an answer to all of the above and that is that this situation we are in now is going to have to get A LOT worse before it gets better and I believe the club finally appreciate this. Here's what I think the club have realised;

- A senior football manager like a Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of what we need right now. We cannot afford to spend the £800m+ I believe it would take to transform us into title contenders in one window and therefore we would end up in another situation whereby we have a frustrated manager sat in the dugout, constantly firing shots at the Board and at the players. We do not need this right now. What we need is a positive man, a man who understands the club and his role within it, a man who admittedly, to a certain extent, is happy just to be here. That man is Ole. Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there? I highly doubt it. I believe the Board see Ole as a man who can oversee this painful transitional period with a smile, whilst just about managing to keep just enough players and fans on-side to make it bearable. At the point were we ARE ready to start challenging for titles again, I believe Ole will make way for a more senior, tactical aware manager who will then go to war with a proper squad of footballers.

- Signing mercenaries and expecting players who performed well for other teams in other positions/formations/styles to slot straight in and produce a 'quick fix' is NOT the way forward. This never, ever works. All of the very best teams are constructed, not bought in one window. What we need now is to identify the right players at the right age and steadily, over the course of four or five windows, build a team. We will lose players like De Gea and Pogba along the way, but this is a hangover of poor choices made in the past. In De Gea's case, we wasted his best years and his powers are now waning. In Pogba's, we failed to find the right players to get the best out of him and keep him happy in a side challenging for trophies. He won't want to, nor should he, waste two/three more seasons pissing about in 6th. This will make it more difficult to build a strong squad but IF we keep identifying the RIGHT players, at the RIGHT age and adding two/three at a time, it ought only be three seasons max before we can at least compete for second

- We need to get rid of the players who don't WANT to be here or who are not good enough to be here as quickly as possible, even if we don't have replacements lined up. A common mistake the NuFootball lot make is that they have gained their experience of buying and selling football players from Football Manager 2018. They think you can simply transfer list 12 players, sell them for asking price before July and spend the money on 5 replacements. Sorry but this is so far from the reality it's laughable. Selling players is almost as complicated as buying players for a club like Manchester United. Our players by default are on big wages and by virtue of the fact we want to sell them, it's unlikely other clubs who could afford their wages would touch them with a barge pole. That means that IF the club identify that Lukaku is NOT the striker to take us forward as a club and there is an offer of £75m on the table, then we HAVE to take it whether a replacement is lined up or not. Does this weaken us short-term? Of course it does, because right now Lukaku and Sanchez are better players than Greenwood, however, next window and the window after we SHOULD have cash, wages and squad positions free to target the players I outlined earlier - the best young players from the PL (and the odd one from elsewhere) in their positions.

So in summary, I believe;

- The Glazers and Ed have learned something from the Jose debacle and the last 6yrs
- Ole is basically a 'long-term caretaker' overseeing the transition phase
- Money IS available but we won't just throw it around anymore. NOT a bad thing at all.
- The club want to get back to signing two/three top young, hungry players at a time, as opposed to hordes of mediocre 'established' footballers (and I include your Lo Celso's and Ndombele's and Icardi's and Fernandes' in that 'hordes of mediocre' category)

However, that all being said, in terms of league position and points gained, this season IS going to be very, very painful. We've left ourselves very thin, our squad is lacking in quality and we have a manager who doesn't appear to have much tactical nous. What we need to appreciate as fans is that this is a result of poor choices made between 2005 and 2018 and just repeating these poor choices MIGHT scrape us 4th on the odd occasion but will never get us back to where we want to be. For that, we need open heart surgery and unfortunately, where going to be very weak for a while before HOPEFULLY making a full recovery

Patience is a virtue. Don't come on here wailing every time we lose one football match. Understand the big picture. Still appreciate the damage that the Glazers and Ed have done to our club. Let's just hope that the green shoots on display are not a mirage!
I like to think that I have the same mentality as you, but I must admit I felt it slipping after the loss to palace. I know we probably should have won, but after the collapse at the end of last season I'm finding it harder and harder to maintain the idea that there's still 'progress' in there somewhere.

Normally after a couple of days to calm down I feel positive again, but I know that a bad result at the weekend will dent it some more.

It's such a fine line. Although I agree that we need to think long term and avoid the mistakes of the the last 6 years.

If you look at Liverpool, which I know we hate to do, they signed players who turned into revelations (Suarez, Coutinho, Torres to a lesser extent, Salah more recently) and had seasons of success mixed with seasons of failure. The top 6 wasn't quite as competitive as it is now, unfortunately for us, so they had CL more often than not, but it still took a lot of time and team surgery before they arrived where they are today.

I do think we might have to be brutal with the manger if another top coach suddenly becomes available, like Liverpool were when they sacked Rodgers for Klopp. I mean even Soton showed ambition when they axed Adkins for Pochettino.

It might upset the fans, but unless Ole shows signs of turning it around completely, rather than just an OK job, then we might have to sacrifice him for the future of the club.
 

ash_86

Full Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
6,339
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.

Let's just make a couple of my opinions clear before I make my points;

- The Glazer takeover has done immeasurable damage to Manchester United, they are blood-thirsty, cretinous, uber-Capitalist parasites who have contributed NOTHING to this club

- Ed Woodward may be, in some sense of the word, a 'smart' man, however, when referring solely to his skills at running the operations of a modern day football club, he is an incompetent buffoon

HOWEVER

As I stated earlier in my post, we cannot, as fans, have our cake and eat it. Over the last six years, the Glazers and Ed have been RIGHTFULLY criticised for;

- Failing to understand the 'United DNA'
- Failing to invest between 2005 and 2014
- Looking for 'quick fixes' as opposed to long-term strategic planning
- Throwing money at mercenary footballers who perform better on Instagram and Twitter than they do on the field
- Sacking managers who are basically hung out to dry, effectively fighting a war against an armoured tank division with what has amounted to water pistols
- Employing managers who's very footballing ethos goes against 'the United way'

NOW

If you look at what the Glazers and Ed have done over the last 12-18 months, it would appear to me that somewhere, somehow, they have had an epiphany. It would appear to me at least that there has been a total shift in mindset and that the foundations are now (hopefully) being laid for a better future....what makes me say this?

- The club have done what they should have been doing for the last six years and signed the best two AVAILABLE 'young' players in their position from the PL (Maguire and Wan-Bissaka)

- The club have let go of several players who, whilst admittedly may have contributed to varying degrees over the last few seasons, were NEVER really Manchester United players. Either in terms of personality or ability. I am talking here about your Fellaini's, Sanchez's, Lukaku's, Herrera's and HOPEFULLY Rojo's, Darmian's etc...

- The club refused to bow to Dybala's wage demands NOT because we couldn't afford them but because we felt he was joining for the WRONG reasons

- The club immediately distanced themselves from the usual press speculation about signing players like Bale and Neymar

- The club moved to sign a young player with potential from the Championship. Something we never had to do in the past because we were by far the most resource-rich team in the league. Roman, Sheikh Mansour and TV money has changed that.

- They have appointed Ole, a man who understands Manchester United and its History

Now, I can feel the NuFootball lot gnashing their teeth.....'but what about squad depth' they cry....'how will we cope with only three senior forwards', furthermore 'Ole is a novice, a Glazer yes-man with no more tactical nous than a cabbage'. They also bang on about 'net spend' and 'not replacing Player X'.....well I have an answer to all of the above and that is that this situation we are in now is going to have to get A LOT worse before it gets better and I believe the club finally appreciate this. Here's what I think the club have realised;

- A senior football manager like a Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of what we need right now. We cannot afford to spend the £800m+ I believe it would take to transform us into title contenders in one window and therefore we would end up in another situation whereby we have a frustrated manager sat in the dugout, constantly firing shots at the Board and at the players. We do not need this right now. What we need is a positive man, a man who understands the club and his role within it, a man who admittedly, to a certain extent, is happy just to be here. That man is Ole. Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there? I highly doubt it. I believe the Board see Ole as a man who can oversee this painful transitional period with a smile, whilst just about managing to keep just enough players and fans on-side to make it bearable. At the point were we ARE ready to start challenging for titles again, I believe Ole will make way for a more senior, tactical aware manager who will then go to war with a proper squad of footballers.

- Signing mercenaries and expecting players who performed well for other teams in other positions/formations/styles to slot straight in and produce a 'quick fix' is NOT the way forward. This never, ever works. All of the very best teams are constructed, not bought in one window. What we need now is to identify the right players at the right age and steadily, over the course of four or five windows, build a team. We will lose players like De Gea and Pogba along the way, but this is a hangover of poor choices made in the past. In De Gea's case, we wasted his best years and his powers are now waning. In Pogba's, we failed to find the right players to get the best out of him and keep him happy in a side challenging for trophies. He won't want to, nor should he, waste two/three more seasons pissing about in 6th. This will make it more difficult to build a strong squad but IF we keep identifying the RIGHT players, at the RIGHT age and adding two/three at a time, it ought only be three seasons max before we can at least compete for second

- We need to get rid of the players who don't WANT to be here or who are not good enough to be here as quickly as possible, even if we don't have replacements lined up. A common mistake the NuFootball lot make is that they have gained their experience of buying and selling football players from Football Manager 2018. They think you can simply transfer list 12 players, sell them for asking price before July and spend the money on 5 replacements. Sorry but this is so far from the reality it's laughable. Selling players is almost as complicated as buying players for a club like Manchester United. Our players by default are on big wages and by virtue of the fact we want to sell them, it's unlikely other clubs who could afford their wages would touch them with a barge pole. That means that IF the club identify that Lukaku is NOT the striker to take us forward as a club and there is an offer of £75m on the table, then we HAVE to take it whether a replacement is lined up or not. Does this weaken us short-term? Of course it does, because right now Lukaku and Sanchez are better players than Greenwood, however, next window and the window after we SHOULD have cash, wages and squad positions free to target the players I outlined earlier - the best young players from the PL (and the odd one from elsewhere) in their positions.

So in summary, I believe;

- The Glazers and Ed have learned something from the Jose debacle and the last 6yrs
- Ole is basically a 'long-term caretaker' overseeing the transition phase
- Money IS available but we won't just throw it around anymore. NOT a bad thing at all.
- The club want to get back to signing two/three top young, hungry players at a time, as opposed to hordes of mediocre 'established' footballers (and I include your Lo Celso's and Ndombele's and Icardi's and Fernandes' in that 'hordes of mediocre' category)

However, that all being said, in terms of league position and points gained, this season IS going to be very, very painful. We've left ourselves very thin, our squad is lacking in quality and we have a manager who doesn't appear to have much tactical nous. What we need to appreciate as fans is that this is a result of poor choices made between 2005 and 2018 and just repeating these poor choices MIGHT scrape us 4th on the odd occasion but will never get us back to where we want to be. For that, we need open heart surgery and unfortunately, where going to be very weak for a while before HOPEFULLY making a full recovery

Patience is a virtue. Don't come on here wailing every time we lose one football match. Understand the big picture. Still appreciate the damage that the Glazers and Ed have done to our club. Let's just hope that the green shoots on display are not a mirage!

Great Post and excellently written. I could relate to lot of points you have written as my speaks in a similar tone. We are going to have an roller coster of a season and even end up losing a large section of fanbase but i think we will come back on the other end leaner and mentally stronger.
 

Leftback99

Might have a bedwetting fetish.
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
14,390
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.

Let's just make a couple of my opinions clear before I make my points;

- The Glazer takeover has done immeasurable damage to Manchester United, they are blood-thirsty, cretinous, uber-Capitalist parasites who have contributed NOTHING to this club

- Ed Woodward may be, in some sense of the word, a 'smart' man, however, when referring solely to his skills at running the operations of a modern day football club, he is an incompetent buffoon

HOWEVER

As I stated earlier in my post, we cannot, as fans, have our cake and eat it. Over the last six years, the Glazers and Ed have been RIGHTFULLY criticised for;

- Failing to understand the 'United DNA'
- Failing to invest between 2005 and 2014
- Looking for 'quick fixes' as opposed to long-term strategic planning
- Throwing money at mercenary footballers who perform better on Instagram and Twitter than they do on the field
- Sacking managers who are basically hung out to dry, effectively fighting a war against an armoured tank division with what has amounted to water pistols
- Employing managers who's very footballing ethos goes against 'the United way'

NOW

If you look at what the Glazers and Ed have done over the last 12-18 months, it would appear to me that somewhere, somehow, they have had an epiphany. It would appear to me at least that there has been a total shift in mindset and that the foundations are now (hopefully) being laid for a better future....what makes me say this?

- The club have done what they should have been doing for the last six years and signed the best two AVAILABLE 'young' players in their position from the PL (Maguire and Wan-Bissaka)

- The club have let go of several players who, whilst admittedly may have contributed to varying degrees over the last few seasons, were NEVER really Manchester United players. Either in terms of personality or ability. I am talking here about your Fellaini's, Sanchez's, Lukaku's, Herrera's and HOPEFULLY Rojo's, Darmian's etc...

- The club refused to bow to Dybala's wage demands NOT because we couldn't afford them but because we felt he was joining for the WRONG reasons

- The club immediately distanced themselves from the usual press speculation about signing players like Bale and Neymar

- The club moved to sign a young player with potential from the Championship. Something we never had to do in the past because we were by far the most resource-rich team in the league. Roman, Sheikh Mansour and TV money has changed that.

- They have appointed Ole, a man who understands Manchester United and its History

Now, I can feel the NuFootball lot gnashing their teeth.....'but what about squad depth' they cry....'how will we cope with only three senior forwards', furthermore 'Ole is a novice, a Glazer yes-man with no more tactical nous than a cabbage'. They also bang on about 'net spend' and 'not replacing Player X'.....well I have an answer to all of the above and that is that this situation we are in now is going to have to get A LOT worse before it gets better and I believe the club finally appreciate this. Here's what I think the club have realised;

- A senior football manager like a Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of what we need right now. We cannot afford to spend the £800m+ I believe it would take to transform us into title contenders in one window and therefore we would end up in another situation whereby we have a frustrated manager sat in the dugout, constantly firing shots at the Board and at the players. We do not need this right now. What we need is a positive man, a man who understands the club and his role within it, a man who admittedly, to a certain extent, is happy just to be here. That man is Ole. Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there? I highly doubt it. I believe the Board see Ole as a man who can oversee this painful transitional period with a smile, whilst just about managing to keep just enough players and fans on-side to make it bearable. At the point were we ARE ready to start challenging for titles again, I believe Ole will make way for a more senior, tactical aware manager who will then go to war with a proper squad of footballers.

- Signing mercenaries and expecting players who performed well for other teams in other positions/formations/styles to slot straight in and produce a 'quick fix' is NOT the way forward. This never, ever works. All of the very best teams are constructed, not bought in one window. What we need now is to identify the right players at the right age and steadily, over the course of four or five windows, build a team. We will lose players like De Gea and Pogba along the way, but this is a hangover of poor choices made in the past. In De Gea's case, we wasted his best years and his powers are now waning. In Pogba's, we failed to find the right players to get the best out of him and keep him happy in a side challenging for trophies. He won't want to, nor should he, waste two/three more seasons pissing about in 6th. This will make it more difficult to build a strong squad but IF we keep identifying the RIGHT players, at the RIGHT age and adding two/three at a time, it ought only be three seasons max before we can at least compete for second

- We need to get rid of the players who don't WANT to be here or who are not good enough to be here as quickly as possible, even if we don't have replacements lined up. A common mistake the NuFootball lot make is that they have gained their experience of buying and selling football players from Football Manager 2018. They think you can simply transfer list 12 players, sell them for asking price before July and spend the money on 5 replacements. Sorry but this is so far from the reality it's laughable. Selling players is almost as complicated as buying players for a club like Manchester United. Our players by default are on big wages and by virtue of the fact we want to sell them, it's unlikely other clubs who could afford their wages would touch them with a barge pole. That means that IF the club identify that Lukaku is NOT the striker to take us forward as a club and there is an offer of £75m on the table, then we HAVE to take it whether a replacement is lined up or not. Does this weaken us short-term? Of course it does, because right now Lukaku and Sanchez are better players than Greenwood, however, next window and the window after we SHOULD have cash, wages and squad positions free to target the players I outlined earlier - the best young players from the PL (and the odd one from elsewhere) in their positions.

So in summary, I believe;

- The Glazers and Ed have learned something from the Jose debacle and the last 6yrs
- Ole is basically a 'long-term caretaker' overseeing the transition phase
- Money IS available but we won't just throw it around anymore. NOT a bad thing at all.
- The club want to get back to signing two/three top young, hungry players at a time, as opposed to hordes of mediocre 'established' footballers (and I include your Lo Celso's and Ndombele's and Icardi's and Fernandes' in that 'hordes of mediocre' category)

However, that all being said, in terms of league position and points gained, this season IS going to be very, very painful. We've left ourselves very thin, our squad is lacking in quality and we have a manager who doesn't appear to have much tactical nous. What we need to appreciate as fans is that this is a result of poor choices made between 2005 and 2018 and just repeating these poor choices MIGHT scrape us 4th on the odd occasion but will never get us back to where we want to be. For that, we need open heart surgery and unfortunately, where going to be very weak for a while before HOPEFULLY making a full recovery

Patience is a virtue. Don't come on here wailing every time we lose one football match. Understand the big picture. Still appreciate the damage that the Glazers and Ed have done to our club. Let's just hope that the green shoots on display are not a mirage!
Great post. I hope it is like you say the signs of an actual plan rather than just the latest shot at the wall hoping it sticks.

Don't expect to see much patience on here though. They say we've got an average team needing many of the things above (agreed), they also expect any manger to win pretty much every game with the same said team.
 

The Cat

Will drink milk from your hands
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
12,327
Location
Feet up at home.
I posted a much shorter thought about it admittedly but it's time to look long term with what we have and address it when we can. Good signings in defence this time please can we get a right winger next opportunity and a midfielder or two and see how the young strikers improve. You can't throw hundreds of millions at it in one go
 

Denis79

Full Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
7,771
Good post, I agree with the majority of what you have written, although I fear that Woodward will demand top 4 despite us being in the middle of a rebuild with a very thin squad. This project needs time and this season might even end in a worse position than last but I'll take it as long as we try our youth and see who has a place in the squad next season.
 

OohAahMartial

Full Member
Joined
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Messages
3,164
Location
Back in the UK
Still think we will come 3rd this season, and 2nd the next. 1st whenever Pep leaves. We will finish above Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal, and probably beat them all again this season away.
 

Greck

Full Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
7,099
I've found myself agreeing with a lot of the rationale behind Ole's decisions since the summer began. But you know...it's perfectly possibly to think he has a good approach and not be a great manager. This is where there exists a line between intention and execution. Take for example Lingard at the 10 is Ole having awful execution of the right intention to implement a high press
 
Last edited:

Stepney73

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
406
Although oles "in game" managment is a slight concern for me his signings and the way he wants to play has me onboard.
If he can sign one or two players in January then followed by a good summer of ins and outs we could be competing again next season.

But with that idiot Woodward and the parasites that are the glazers running the show I'd be surprised if it all comes together.
 

Gandalf

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
4,786
Location
Alabama but always Wales in my heart
I agree with the OP with the exception of Ole stepping aside for another man in 2 or 3 seasons time. Not to say it won't happen but I think we need to appreciate that he is developing just as much as the young squad he is assembling. Ole will be a different Manager in 2 years time and right now we don't know if that means he will be a solid mid table quality guy like Roy Hodgson or if he will become the next Pep or Klopp. I think he deserves the chance to finish what he has started and I don't think it is outlandish to believe he can grow into the role and so lets reserve judgement on his long term prospects until he has proven what he is capable of.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Flagg
Here is the thing. I am willing to give Ole time and patience, but I don't think that means he should be imune from criticism in the meantime. He has been in charge for over 8 months, not a few weeks.

At this point you would expect to see his style of play emerging, his tactics beig understood, for him to have an undertanding of his players. He did not inherit a new squad in the summer. We signed 3 players and he got to choose the players he wanted to carry on working with.

The problem, with the Palace game in particular, is that this was no different from the type of performance you would expect under Mourinho. Until the last half hour,, there was no urgency, no movement, no organised pressing. For the last half hour, there was still no evident plan or style of play. It was just players running towards the Palace goal hoping something would happen. It was a very similar display to the one we put in last year, in the same fixture. There was no evidence that we have bothered to work on set pieces, no defensive organisation. After 8 months, these sort of things should be evident. There should be evidence by now on the pitch of what Ole has the players working on every day in training. We'll see how the performances go over the next few months but it certainly needs to be better than that regardless of what results we churn out.

He is using Lingard as a no10. Mata is better there. Pogba is. Pereira is. Gomes is much more suited. He is 4th choice there at best, and even then, it is arguable we should just change the system if Lingard is the only option there. He is neither suited to nor good enough for that role. Ole has managed this squad for long enough to know the strengths of his own players better than this.

We have decided to let Sanchez leave allong with Lukaku when we have no viable replacement for either. I have no problem with him shipping out these players, but you cannot replace them with no one. Maybe he asked for replacements and didn't get them...but the decision to move sanchez out has clearly been made after it was apparent we wouldn't get them.

These are all things that bring about very valid criticisms.

I like Ole. From what I can figure I like the direction he wants to go in. A counter attacking team of hungry players who work hard and press opponents sounds good to me. If it takes a few years to get right then that is fine too, but as with previous managers, there needs to be evidence that we are moving in the right direction. The signings are evidence, but that isn't enough to go on by itself. After the last three managers fans are understandably wary of blindly backing someone.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
How can you counter attack when the other team lets you have possession? A counter attacking team is a team that can defend well when the other team is attacking and turn over defence to attack. United under SAF is not a counter attacking team. We played on the front foot most of the game. We do not let other teams have possession. We could outpass any team certainly in the PL. Yes we can switch from defence to attack instantly too but usually we play on the front foot and attack all the other teams.
So now Ole is trying to get us a counter attacking team that plays long ball from the CBs to the forwards.
When Big Sam does it then it becomes long ball. When Ole does it then it is counter attacking.
 

SambaBoy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,225
This is definitely a season of uncertainty. There are question marks already after our transfer window and the Palace result. Many on here expected us to get rid of 7-8 players and bring in 5-6 which was never going to happen. We don't have the money to do that and nor does it make sense to have the much upheaval in one window.

We have focused on younger players ready to make the next step up, with a British base. Everyone has claimed this is a new way forward and have praised OGS and the board. However you could argue we have been doing that since Fergie left as well (obviously not British, but younger talents). Schneiderlin was lauded as a terrific signing by many on here, proved himself to be a top player at Southampton and was ready for a top club move where he would make the next step and be one of the best midfielders in the Prem. Memphis Depay was one of the top youngsters in world football, banging in goals and performing well internationally. Martial was another on the list of top young prospects in Europe who was starting to make a name at Monaco. Luke Shaw who had broke through at Southampton, and was predicted to be one of the best LB in world football. Lindelof was highly rated at Benfica and with potential to be a leading CB for a top European club. Diogo Dalot was less known but was receiving high praise in Portugal, as was Marcos Rojo. Portuguese posters claimed he was the best CB in that league. Fred was perfoming well in the CL, had done well in Ukraine and was tipped to become a big player in one of the top European Leagues. Eric Bailly wasn't considered a top young talent but he had shown potential at Villarreal and was considered a very good signing.

Ultimately the majority of these players have been considered not good enough, and in hindsight they never should have been bought. Maybe they just struggled with a number of factors i.e. coming into a struggling team, not settling well, injuries etc. If SAF had signed them, then who knows, they could have been the players they were expected to be when they came in. I would wonder how they would have performed if they had joined City or Liverpool. Our signings haven't just been expensive mercenaries who haven't worked out. We have also invested in younger players taking the next step up, so I wouldn't say our transfer policy has changed dramatically. Obviously this summer we have avoided the mercenaries and the players coming to the end of their career i.e. Schweinsteiger, Sanchez, Di Maria by not signing Dybala, Bale etc.
 

Rhyme Animal

Thinks Di Zerbi is better than Pep.
Joined
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Messages
11,193
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Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
Man, I'm so tired of all the sanctimonious, 'better fan than thou' posts and threads at the moment, ordering people to 'be patient' and accusing anyone who has a different opinion of being a 'football manager fan' etc, or as the OP is doing here with 'nufootball fan' nonsense.

It's great if you buy the company line that is saving the Glazers from actually investing properly, or employing a top level manager and then backing him... but ffs give it a rest with this garbage.
 

sglowrider

Thinks the caf is 'wokeish'.
Joined
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Messages
25,213
Location
Hell on Earth
I hope we win soon.

If this dry spell drags on too long, we will get so insecure, then god-forbid, RAWK-like of a few years ago; where we'll get so delusional about every new or injured player that has the United kit on.

Then also this forum and MUTV will turn essentially into the history channel -- and talking about the past victories and occasionally accusing the Scousers cheated their way into victory.
 

Caesar2290

New Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2019
Messages
1,283
Man, I'm so tired of all the sanctimonious, 'better fan than thou' posts and threads at the moment, ordering people to 'be patient' and accusing anyone who has a different opinion of being a 'football manager fan' etc, or as the OP is doing here with 'nufootball fan' nonsense.

It's great if you buy the company line that is saving the Glazers from actually investing properly, or employing a top level manager and then backing him... but ffs give it a rest with this garbage.
Serious question: has all this bitching and moaning accomplished anything that you wrote about in your post? Do you believe for a second that the Glazers and co. read the Caf?

The only thing it does is it just alienates most people... We get, we are not world beaters, our squad sucks, the Glazers are leeches, Woodward is a baffoon and Ole is inexperienced.

But for the love of God, does every single frickin post has to be about how shit we are?

I thought you guys are supporters, but I don’t see much supporting on here.

The only thing I see is a bunch of entitled kids who throw a hissy fit every time things don’t go as “they” want them to go.

How about you know: show some support for our boys and the team we love. If you can’t do that, do yourself a favor and don’t interrupt the people who are
 
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Lentwood

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Man, I'm so tired of all the sanctimonious, 'better fan than thou' posts and threads at the moment, ordering people to 'be patient' and accusing anyone who has a different opinion of being a 'football manager fan' etc, or as the OP is doing here with 'nufootball fan' nonsense.

It's great if you buy the company line that is saving the Glazers from actually investing properly, or employing a top level manager and then backing him... but ffs give it a rest with this garbage.
I think the have missed the point a little. I’m all for being critical of the owners, the players, the management and Ed.

What I am arguing, however, is that it’s hypocritical to accuse the Glazers/Ed of making bad decisions and then advocating that they make them all over again.

Perfect example - friend of mine who was a ST holder with me for years....

Him - “we should have a mass clear-out, just get these players out of the club whatever it takes”

Players Leave “we’ve lost x, y, z and haven’t replaced them”

Also Him - “I’m sick of us throwing money at mercenaries like Falcao, Di Maria and Sanchez”

Club declare no interest in permanently injured Bale who wants to stay at RM and pull out of Dybala deal due to ludicrous wage demands - “I can’t believe the Glazers are penny pinching again and fans are just lapping it up”

Also Him - “What do our Scouts do, we never identify talent early enough and then end up overpaying”

We sign James - “more Glazer penny pinching”

If all you do is moan about whatever decisions are made good or bad, people will ultimately dismiss your arguments

The argument that the Glazers have drained funds and Ed has made terrible decisions has been won, so no need to keep banging on about it. The question is, what do we do next?
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.
Brilliant Post.

Prime example this morning - Smalling close to joining on loan to Roma and fans going mental why is he leaving he is 2nd choice bla bla bla.. rewind 2 months and was like How can we have a CB pairing of smalling and Lindelof? they aren't good enough

Sanchez loan to Inter - Why are we letting our forwards go? the squad it too thin, how can we trust Rashford and Martial.
But the same fans in May were saying Get rif or Lukaku and Sanchez.

Fans also crying why we have signed a Championship winger and have a CB 2nd choice who has only played championship level.

No one understands football, you can still be a good player even if you haven't played in the prem.
 

Jimmy_Bond

New Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
583
It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.

Let's just make a couple of my opinions clear before I make my points;

- The Glazer takeover has done immeasurable damage to Manchester United, they are blood-thirsty, cretinous, uber-Capitalist parasites who have contributed NOTHING to this club

- Ed Woodward may be, in some sense of the word, a 'smart' man, however, when referring solely to his skills at running the operations of a modern day football club, he is an incompetent buffoon

HOWEVER

As I stated earlier in my post, we cannot, as fans, have our cake and eat it. Over the last six years, the Glazers and Ed have been RIGHTFULLY criticised for;

- Failing to understand the 'United DNA'
- Failing to invest between 2005 and 2014
- Looking for 'quick fixes' as opposed to long-term strategic planning
- Throwing money at mercenary footballers who perform better on Instagram and Twitter than they do on the field
- Sacking managers who are basically hung out to dry, effectively fighting a war against an armoured tank division with what has amounted to water pistols
- Employing managers who's very footballing ethos goes against 'the United way'

NOW

If you look at what the Glazers and Ed have done over the last 12-18 months, it would appear to me that somewhere, somehow, they have had an epiphany. It would appear to me at least that there has been a total shift in mindset and that the foundations are now (hopefully) being laid for a better future....what makes me say this?

- The club have done what they should have been doing for the last six years and signed the best two AVAILABLE 'young' players in their position from the PL (Maguire and Wan-Bissaka)

- The club have let go of several players who, whilst admittedly may have contributed to varying degrees over the last few seasons, were NEVER really Manchester United players. Either in terms of personality or ability. I am talking here about your Fellaini's, Sanchez's, Lukaku's, Herrera's and HOPEFULLY Rojo's, Darmian's etc...

- The club refused to bow to Dybala's wage demands NOT because we couldn't afford them but because we felt he was joining for the WRONG reasons

- The club immediately distanced themselves from the usual press speculation about signing players like Bale and Neymar

- The club moved to sign a young player with potential from the Championship. Something we never had to do in the past because we were by far the most resource-rich team in the league. Roman, Sheikh Mansour and TV money has changed that.

- They have appointed Ole, a man who understands Manchester United and its History

Now, I can feel the NuFootball lot gnashing their teeth.....'but what about squad depth' they cry....'how will we cope with only three senior forwards', furthermore 'Ole is a novice, a Glazer yes-man with no more tactical nous than a cabbage'. They also bang on about 'net spend' and 'not replacing Player X'.....well I have an answer to all of the above and that is that this situation we are in now is going to have to get A LOT worse before it gets better and I believe the club finally appreciate this. Here's what I think the club have realised;

- A senior football manager like a Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of what we need right now. We cannot afford to spend the £800m+ I believe it would take to transform us into title contenders in one window and therefore we would end up in another situation whereby we have a frustrated manager sat in the dugout, constantly firing shots at the Board and at the players. We do not need this right now. What we need is a positive man, a man who understands the club and his role within it, a man who admittedly, to a certain extent, is happy just to be here. That man is Ole. Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there? I highly doubt it. I believe the Board see Ole as a man who can oversee this painful transitional period with a smile, whilst just about managing to keep just enough players and fans on-side to make it bearable. At the point were we ARE ready to start challenging for titles again, I believe Ole will make way for a more senior, tactical aware manager who will then go to war with a proper squad of footballers.

- Signing mercenaries and expecting players who performed well for other teams in other positions/formations/styles to slot straight in and produce a 'quick fix' is NOT the way forward. This never, ever works. All of the very best teams are constructed, not bought in one window. What we need now is to identify the right players at the right age and steadily, over the course of four or five windows, build a team. We will lose players like De Gea and Pogba along the way, but this is a hangover of poor choices made in the past. In De Gea's case, we wasted his best years and his powers are now waning. In Pogba's, we failed to find the right players to get the best out of him and keep him happy in a side challenging for trophies. He won't want to, nor should he, waste two/three more seasons pissing about in 6th. This will make it more difficult to build a strong squad but IF we keep identifying the RIGHT players, at the RIGHT age and adding two/three at a time, it ought only be three seasons max before we can at least compete for second

- We need to get rid of the players who don't WANT to be here or who are not good enough to be here as quickly as possible, even if we don't have replacements lined up. A common mistake the NuFootball lot make is that they have gained their experience of buying and selling football players from Football Manager 2018. They think you can simply transfer list 12 players, sell them for asking price before July and spend the money on 5 replacements. Sorry but this is so far from the reality it's laughable. Selling players is almost as complicated as buying players for a club like Manchester United. Our players by default are on big wages and by virtue of the fact we want to sell them, it's unlikely other clubs who could afford their wages would touch them with a barge pole. That means that IF the club identify that Lukaku is NOT the striker to take us forward as a club and there is an offer of £75m on the table, then we HAVE to take it whether a replacement is lined up or not. Does this weaken us short-term? Of course it does, because right now Lukaku and Sanchez are better players than Greenwood, however, next window and the window after we SHOULD have cash, wages and squad positions free to target the players I outlined earlier - the best young players from the PL (and the odd one from elsewhere) in their positions.

So in summary, I believe;

- The Glazers and Ed have learned something from the Jose debacle and the last 6yrs
- Ole is basically a 'long-term caretaker' overseeing the transition phase
- Money IS available but we won't just throw it around anymore. NOT a bad thing at all.
- The club want to get back to signing two/three top young, hungry players at a time, as opposed to hordes of mediocre 'established' footballers (and I include your Lo Celso's and Ndombele's and Icardi's and Fernandes' in that 'hordes of mediocre' category)

However, that all being said, in terms of league position and points gained, this season IS going to be very, very painful. We've left ourselves very thin, our squad is lacking in quality and we have a manager who doesn't appear to have much tactical nous. What we need to appreciate as fans is that this is a result of poor choices made between 2005 and 2018 and just repeating these poor choices MIGHT scrape us 4th on the odd occasion but will never get us back to where we want to be. For that, we need open heart surgery and unfortunately, where going to be very weak for a while before HOPEFULLY making a full recovery

Patience is a virtue. Don't come on here wailing every time we lose one football match. Understand the big picture. Still appreciate the damage that the Glazers and Ed have done to our club. Let's just hope that the green shoots on display are not a mirage!
Yes mate. If I still lived Didsbury way I'd be buying you a pint of Directors!
 

Vault Dweller

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Enjoyed that post, well put. I'm still confident, sure it will be a bumpy road and I'm not totally sure of the direction we are taking, but a huge clear out and mentality change was required. Let's see what happens.
 

7even

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Here is the thing. I am willing to give Ole time and patience, but I don't think that means he should be imune from criticism in the meantime. He has been in charge for over 8 months, not a few weeks.

At this point you would expect to see his style of play emerging, his tactics beig understood, for him to have an undertanding of his players. He did not inherit a new squad in the summer. We signed 3 players and he got to choose the players he wanted to carry on working with.

The problem, with the Palace game in particular, is that this was no different from the type of performance you would expect under Mourinho. Until the last half hour,, there was no urgency, no movement, no organised pressing. For the last half hour, there was still no evident plan or style of play. It was just players running towards the Palace goal hoping something would happen. It was a very similar display to the one we put in last year, in the same fixture. There was no evidence that we have bothered to work on set pieces, no defensive organisation. After 8 months, these sort of things should be evident. There should be evidence by now on the pitch of what Ole has the players working on every day in training. We'll see how the performances go over the next few months but it certainly needs to be better than that regardless of what results we churn out.

He is using Lingard as a no10. Mata is better there. Pogba is. Pereira is. Gomes is much more suited. He is 4th choice there at best, and even then, it is arguable we should just change the system if Lingard is the only option there. He is neither suited to nor good enough for that role. Ole has managed this squad for long enough to know the strengths of his own players better than this.

We have decided to let Sanchez leave allong with Lukaku when we have no viable replacement for either. I have no problem with him shipping out these players, but you cannot replace them with no one. Maybe he asked for replacements and didn't get them...but the decision to move sanchez out has clearly been made after it was apparent we wouldn't get them.

These are all things that bring about very valid criticisms.

I like Ole. From what I can figure I like the direction he wants to go in. A counter attacking team of hungry players who work hard and press opponents sounds good to me. If it takes a few years to get right then that is fine too, but as with previous managers, there needs to be evidence that we are moving in the right direction. The signings are evidence, but that isn't enough to go on by itself. After the last three managers fans are understandably wary of blindly backing someone.
Absolutely spot on, especially the bold part! Very well articulated noodlehair.

I don’t see Ole Gunnar in the same way I see a manager like Klopp and Guardiola. They have a clear philosophy, a precise vision how to play and the stubbornness and the fcharisma to execute their plans with everybody onboard. Solksjaer is more of a DoF type who can make sure that the club move in the right direction. I think in two three years that would be his natural role if he intend to stay in Manchester.
 

noodlehair

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Absolutely spot on, especially the bold part! Very well articulated noodlehair.

I don’t see Ole Gunnar in the same way I see a manager like Klopp and Guardiola. They have a clear philosophy, a precise vision how to play and the stubbornness and the fcharisma to execute their plans with everybody onboard. Solksjaer is more of a DoF type who can make sure that the club move in the right direction. I think in two three years that would be his natural role if he intend to stay in Manchester.
Yeah, I mean I have more confidence in Ole than I did in Jose by this time last year, or LVG at pretty much any point after he started waffling out self contradictory shite every other sentence...but for all the seemingly right things he says, there has to be a plan in terms of coaching and managing to back it up, and it needs to be effective.

There's only do long anyone's patience will last if we produce performances like at the weekend. Where teams can beat us by doing pretty much nothing due to how clueless we look.
 

Amarsdd

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Yeah, I mean I have more confidence in Ole than I did in Jose by this time last year, or LVG at pretty much any point after he started waffling out self contradictory shite every other sentence...but for all the seemingly right things he says, there has to be a plan in terms of coaching and managing to back it up, and it needs to be effective.

There's only do long anyone's patience will last if we produce performances like at the weekend. Where teams can beat us by doing pretty much nothing due to how clueless we look.
Seriously, did I see a different game to some guys here last weekend? Even just that performance in isolation was a major improvement on the dross we saw in the majority of LVG and Jose seasons. We controlled the majority of the game (we very rarely did that under Jose), we were attempting to penetrate both through the middle (admittedly this was slightly laborious esp as Lingard had a very off day) and through the sides and were basically hacked down by Crystal Palace without any punishments, a lot of decisions went against us (at least one more penalty and a red card), and we missed a penalty. Of course, there was some just passing it around in the middle, but as Crystal Palace just came to defend, it was inevitable. 9 out of 10 times we would be winning that game on that performance. And most of all, I enjoyed watching it, which again I rarely did under LVG and Jose.
 

noodlehair

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Seriously, did I see a different game to some guys here last weekend? Even just that performance in isolation was a major improvement on the dross we saw in the majority of LVG and Jose seasons. We controlled the majority of the game (we very rarely did that under Jose), we were attempting to penetrate both through the middle (admittedly this was slightly laborious esp as Lingard had a very off day) and through the sides and were basically hacked down by Crystal Palace without any punishments, a lot of decisions went against us (at least one more penalty and a red card), and we missed a penalty. Of course, there was some just passing it around in the middle, but as Crystal Palace just came to defend, it was inevitable. 9 out of 10 times we would be winning that game on that performance. And most of all, I enjoyed watching it, which again I rarely did under LVG and Jose.
You watched the same game. Palace are a poor side and one against which you could expect us to look like we have an idea. The first half was a waste of everyone's time and the second was a disorganised panic.

I have lost count of how many times I've seen the line "9 out of 10 times we win that" or something to that effect in the last few years. Clearly that isn't the case. You give yourself that kind of chance by coming out from the start of the game with a clear plan and purpose, not by attempting to labour through it.
 

Anustart89

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Yeah, I mean I have more confidence in Ole than I did in Jose by this time last year, or LVG at pretty much any point after he started waffling out self contradictory shite every other sentence...but for all the seemingly right things he says, there has to be a plan in terms of coaching and managing to back it up, and it needs to be effective.

There's only do long anyone's patience will last if we produce performances like at the weekend. Where teams can beat us by doing pretty much nothing due to how clueless we look.
Completely agree.

With Klopp you could clearly see that he had a system but didn’t have the players for it. With Ole you can see he wants to counter-attack, but after eight months there is no indication as to how he intends to break down a parked bus, which is more likely to be the case against any given opponent than us being pushed back and being able to counter-attack.

The fact that he plays James and Lingard against Palace shows to me that he intends to play that counter-attacking team regardless of opposition, which I strongly disagree with without being a football manager myself.
 

Lentwood

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It’s got nothing to do with having confidence (or not) in Ole

The point of the thread i.e. “the green shoots of recovery” is that the Glazers and Ed APPEAR now to have got the message that the club needs structural repair and have begun to pursue a potential encouraging strategy
 

Harry190

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This is why we need gangs in this forum. This way, we'll know what you believe in.
 

noodlehair

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It’s got nothing to do with having confidence (or not) in Ole

The point of the thread i.e. “the green shoots of recovery” is that the Glazers and Ed APPEAR now to have got the message that the club needs structural repair and have begun to pursue a potential encouraging strategy
It's not really any different from what people said when we hired Van Gaal or Mourinho.

Our transfer business and strategy from Woodward etc. has crippled our squad for the season and the only evidence of a change in strategy has come from what Ole has had to say.

We signed players Jose and Van Gaal wanted when they were managers. Even Moyes got Fellaini...but it was the exact same procedure of waiting all summer just to pay over the odds anyway. There evidence to suggest Woodward has learned anything at all is towered over by the evidence he's learned absolutely nothing.
 

pacifictheme

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It’s got nothing to do with having confidence (or not) in Ole

The point of the thread i.e. “the green shoots of recovery” is that the Glazers and Ed APPEAR now to have got the message that the club needs structural repair and have begun to pursue a potential encouraging strategy
While this is true it also appears that they are happy to offload players but seem reluctant to replace them. We absolutely need a long term plan but making the squad paper thin shouldn't be a part of it. We knew we were losing lukaku and herrera but chose not to replace either (in lukakus place not neccessarily a like for like replacement). Arguably both areas of the squad already needed reinforcements already.

The squad needed surgery, but you don't do a transplant by taking one heart out and not putting another in (shite analogy but you get the point).
 

He'sRaldo

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Completely agree.

With Klopp you could clearly see that he had a system but didn’t have the players for it. With Ole you can see he wants to counter-attack, but after eight months there is no indication as to how he intends to break down a parked bus, which is more likely to be the case against any given opponent than us being pushed back and being able to counter-attack.

The fact that he plays James and Lingard against Palace shows to me that he intends to play that counter-attacking team regardless of opposition, which I strongly disagree with without being a football manager myself.
Klopp also struggled against buses initially, that was one of his weaknesses. It's just recently he's been able to figure it out and improve his positional play and set pieces.

To say he's always had a clue is inaccurate.
 
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M Bison

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Fantastic post. Bad decisions from 2005-2018 is debatable if I’m nitpicking, but other than that, excellent.
 

Lentwood

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It's not really any different from what people said when we hired Van Gaal or Mourinho.

Our transfer business and strategy from Woodward etc. has crippled our squad for the season and the only evidence of a change in strategy has come from what Ole has had to say.

We signed players Jose and Van Gaal wanted when they were managers. Even Moyes got Fellaini...but it was the exact same procedure of waiting all summer just to pay over the odds anyway. There evidence to suggest Woodward has learned anything at all is towered over by the evidence he's learned absolutely nothing.
Not really....under all three managers we chased unattainable targets who pissed us around for the most part, meaning we ended up going for our 3rd/4th choice players at the last minute or playing it safe and signing players recommended, or known by, the manager

Think back....Thomas Muller, Toni Kroos, Gareth Bale, Neymar, Raphael Varane....sure there where more but that’s off the top of my head

This Summer....we wanted Wan Bissaka, Maguire and James and we got all three. Plus they are totally different types of targets...right age, hungry, attainable, proven PL, certain to have no issues with culture/language and want to join for the right reasons
 

Lentwood

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While this is true it also appears that they are happy to offload players but seem reluctant to replace them. We absolutely need a long term plan but making the squad paper thin shouldn't be a part of it. We knew we were losing lukaku and herrera but chose not to replace either (in lukakus place not neccessarily a like for like replacement). Arguably both areas of the squad already needed reinforcements already.

The squad needed surgery, but you don't do a transplant by taking one heart out and not putting another in (shite analogy but you get the point).
I don’t think they are reluctant to replace them, I think they are rightfully being careful to avoid buying more duds. Every time we buy a player who turns out to be inadequate, it sets us back twice because first we have to get rid of that player and then identify and purchase a replacement

Only time will tell whether the Glazers invest the required amount in proper replacements but the AWB and Maguire transfers encourage me they will pay what’s necessary for the right players
 
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