No, just irritated by people suddenly thinking that we are saved and there is only one way for us to go, while the underlying data suggest that we are still struggling to create chances in the EPL, only that Bruno and Martial are the ones getting them(Our two only efficient players). Hence my somewhat subjective negative stance towards OGS. I will give OGS credit for his man-management of the players at the club (except PP), and if we get some coaches + players that are on the same level as Bruno in the understanding of the game then this will mitigate for the main problem with how OGS prefers to play(attacking against a balanced defence), while simultaneously let him do what he is best at: man-management.
The Green Shoots of Recovery: Lessons Learned - Patience Imperative!
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
Christ, this is weak. Some credit for this man-management of Fred? No credit for the blatantly obvious improvements to Shaw, Rashford and McT? It's drivel!
‘Stupid decisions and bad passes.’ You mean, ‘he’s improved considerably over the last 6 months but I don’t want to admit that.’
You don’t see how Rashford and Shaw have improved... seriously? Rashfords goal record alone should be enough. Shaw is more confident, getting into more dangerous positions, his crossing has improved, he’s part of a defence that is keeping regular clean sheets. There’s a reason why people are beginning to discuss him as a possible starter for England in the Euros, CV permitting of course! As for McTominay, he’s gone from an important squad player to one of the most important players at the club.
Now it’s your turn, can you give me examples of managers improving clubs without buying players long term?
Why would it irritate you unless you have an agenda against him?
Can you name one single manager who isn't dependent on buying players to improve a team?
Even Pochettino, with his limited budgets, brought in 27 (?) players while managing Spurs.
How many players have baldy bought while at City? Bayern? Barcelona?
How about Nagelsmann? Rose? Klopp?
If the players aren't good enough, you simply have to buy better players, no?
Also, have a look at the promoted youth players this season. We have given the most minutes to youngsters of all the teams in the league (maybe bar Chelsea?), with Greenwood and Williams being prime examples of good coaching and management. Shaw looks totally rejuvinated after the promotion of Williams. Even AWB have become better offensively lately. If Tuanzebe hadn't been injured, I reckon he'd have more minutes as well.
Get out of here with your agenda.
What obvious improvements? Rashford has not improved much. He is shooting more compared to last year, at roughly the same efficiency.
Shaw? Scored one goal against Derby. Still can't cross or pick a safe pass (his passing ability is quite good, but his pass selection is bad in the build-up). People arguing that Shaw should start over Chilwell... Well, Pickford starts for England. One never knows.
McT: He was impressive against Everton and City before the injury and in general in the EL this season. His passing and speed when handling the ball are still not good enough when we are on the ball. When the team is not on the ball, he is an asset. Same as he was last season. Not seeing any major improvements. It is impossible to quantify his "mental impact". Same as Henderson or Keane. He might have improved a lot as a leader, or motivator, but purely football-related elements I'm not so sure.
Pochettino improved a number of the Spurs players over time, before the meltdown that he predicted. Guardiola and his coaching team improved Sterling's close control and passing ability. Our youth set up seems to improve our players given the high level most of them have been showing when given games.
I think it just shows that you have to take the bad with the good.
We've had quite a rollercoaster rather than a mixture of results.
We've gone from winning loads in a row, drawing, winning and losing, now back to winning plenty.
For me all I ever asked was us to play positively, be competitive and fun to watch. Right now it's perfect IMO.
We won't win every match but we're hard to beat and competitive in most matches recently. If it continues like this we have zero reason to change the manager. It just shows though you do need players that are good at football to make a difference.
We've had quite a rollercoaster rather than a mixture of results.
We've gone from winning loads in a row, drawing, winning and losing, now back to winning plenty.
For me all I ever asked was us to play positively, be competitive and fun to watch. Right now it's perfect IMO.
We won't win every match but we're hard to beat and competitive in most matches recently. If it continues like this we have zero reason to change the manager. It just shows though you do need players that are good at football to make a difference.
People slated Mourinho for being only able to improve the team through buying players...
So, the average technical ability of the players under Poch did not improve? Son, Alli, Moura? And look at their team know. Barely able to pass.
Not disagreeing that some players are extremely difficult to adjust/improve into suiting a particular style, hence there will always be a need for transfers.
OGS is a good manmanager. Creating an environment where youngsters will feel confident or "safe". Not enough time to evaluate if Williams/Greenwood have improved since breaking into the first-team squad. I mean it is not like Greenwood was a bad player before?
God it’s nice having the ignore button am I right?
Yes but at these trouble times you need bit of laugh too isn't it.
He bought those players
Very true.Eh? He's scoring at a significantly higher rate. Its ridiculous to ignore goals scored in favour of shot conversion.
Oh so now goals are a relevant stat when it comes to a left back?
The lengths people will go to to avoid admitting they are wrong. Clearly you haven't been watching us play then. His crossing and passing has greatly improved.Yes he was, and I'll give you one guess who he was playing under prior to his injury.
That's not what I asked. You're going to have to go into more detail than that anyway. That doesn't float. Elaborate. Guardiola has spent £200m on fullbacks alone. You're not answering the question asked.
This is very good point
Awful. Drop the agenda and open your eyes ffs.
It's eye opening seeing people who are so entrenched in their negative view of the club and everything around it while being a United fan that anything positive happening genuinely annoys them until they can find a way to spin it as a negative after all.
I would argue with the bolded part with ferocity.
Rashford most definetely has improved his decision making skills. Before, you almost always knew, that he was going to pick the selfish option - either take someone on, when there were much better options available or just shoot from difficult angles. You can see a very clear change in the match-day threads or Rashford performance threads when it comes to people assessment of the lad and no, it isn't only because of his purple patch/scoring more goals this season, it is because he has cut out a lot of the dumb decision making he was doing before. He has definetely matured and improved under OGS and it's clear as day for everyone to see.
Shaw has added more to his arsenal as well - he's trying more and more to find the pass forward instead of choosing the safer option (which actually applies to the entirety of our team nowadays) and also making intelligent runs behind defenders. Not to mention he has become a wall in our defence, which was aided by the addition of Williams (thanks once more OGS) that sparked the fire under his still-big-but-not-as-anymore arse. Of course his end product could be better, but I'm sure he will get better in that regard as well.
Regarding Poch - is this Amadeus' second account by any chance?
Sorry Amadeus.
Hmm, ok... not a phrase I would use, but -
We know. Keep saying it, though.
Now comes a HOWEVER
What about engagement with fan groups? What about bringing football people on the board?
What about maintaining the stadium and facilities?
What about a long term vision?
What about sucking the club dry and saddling it with debt?
Bollocks. Look at my extension to your list of shortcomings. And that’s the top of the corporate iceberg. Fair enough, they signed Wan Bissaka, James and Maguire. As you would say, HOWEVER...
They let go a lot of players, some decent, like Herrera, and didn’t replace them. Herrera was not well treated. Like LVG wa not well treated. That’s another complaint about these people. They are pigs, and have no class in their dealing with football pros.
The other evidence of this epiphany offered here has to do with Dybala, Bale etc. Thanks lads, I’d say, for showing just a teeny bit of cop on.
You sound like Ed! Sure you are not him after a bottle of whiskey? No, didn’t think so. Yes, though; I wobbled recently. I have to admit, I changed my own tune a bit. After the performances of the last couple of weeks, I am open to giving Ole and his team a chance. Would be ironic if our little revival was spiked by the virus outbreak.
Well do you, now? What a weird, rambling post. Gas how the poster keeps talking “the club” this, “the club” that. Not the board or the CEO. In his mind, the club and its decision-makers seem inseparable. Then he has a kick at Mourhino.
Of OGS, he asks rhetorically “Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there?
The best bit then: if we (Ed) do everything right, we can at least, complete for second! Holy Feck, is about all I can say to that.
It’s so long, it’s like a novel, this post. The points about players who want to be here, and football manger playing fans are already well threaded.
Then we get a summary!
!
This was supposed to be a summary. But suddenly he’s rattling on again. Like a guy you end up chatting to in a pub who likes the sound of his own voice a bit too much. Poster, you may not want or need my advice; goodness knows I have done a few rambling ones myself. But keep the summary, ditch the post, I’d say.
This is nice at the End
Fair enough. But I don’t agree there’s been an epiphany with the board or CEO. I want them gone. However, there have been improvements. And good luck with posting. Patience is a virtue, brevity is another.
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@ivaldo @Fetshu @SteveW @Skåre Willoch
Since Bruno signed, in the 5 EPL games (up until Bruno came, 24 games):
Expected points: 7.92pts (11pts achieved), 7th in the league at ca.1,6 per game.
(44.14 points (34 points actually gathered), average 1.84 per game, 4th)
Expected goals: 7.24(8 goals scored), 10th in the league at 1,45 per game.
(41.83 expected goals, (36 scored), 1,74 per game, 4th in the league)
Expected goals against: 5,78 (conceding 1) 6th in the league at 1.16 per game.
(24,79 expected goals against (conceding 29), average 1,03 per game, 2nd in the league)
We have scored 8 and conceded 1 in this period 5 game period. More efficient in both ends, compared to the rest of the season where we have been one of the least efficient teams in the league. The two games against Watford and City were really impressive with few chances allowed while creating a number of chances. The other 3 games not so much. Why we are suddenly more efficient in both ends of the field, I do not know. Maybe it is because Bruno and Martial are the ones getting a large portion of the chances. Martial being by far our most efficient finisher over the last few seasons and Bruno being a good finisher. And DDG and Maguire++ working well together. Still, the underlying numbers indicate that we have not improved in our chance creation and allowing of chances... So I will not say that we are "fixed" in any way, yet. Still, the dominant victories against weaker teams like LASK, Derby and Club Brugge can be a good indicator on how we will do against weaker teams in the EPL in the future.
Regarding the general improvement of the players:
This is somewhat subjective (eye test), at least on my part, and difficult to quantifiable and subsequently making a historical comparison. I do not have the data or means to disprove that Shaw has improved, nor the importance of McT to our team (which from a Keane/Henderson perspective I agree with). So I will retract my subjective statements regarding their improvements or lack thereof.
My only expectations from OGS were that he would create a good culture within the squad (like he did at Molde) and improve our running. He has done both. Still, I do not think he and the coaches under him have shown any indications of a shift in playing style from counterattacking football towards a more controlling/possession-oriented type of play. And I do not think the type of football we play is going to get us back to the very top in world football. It is to coincidental and dependent on counter-attacking opportunities and mistakes from the opposition to be feasible over time, particularly in the league. Dominating possession in the final third and controlling most of our games, systematically breaking down teams sitting low...
Since Bruno signed, in the 5 EPL games (up until Bruno came, 24 games):
Expected points: 7.92pts (11pts achieved), 7th in the league at ca.1,6 per game.
(44.14 points (34 points actually gathered), average 1.84 per game, 4th)
Expected goals: 7.24(8 goals scored), 10th in the league at 1,45 per game.
(41.83 expected goals, (36 scored), 1,74 per game, 4th in the league)
Expected goals against: 5,78 (conceding 1) 6th in the league at 1.16 per game.
(24,79 expected goals against (conceding 29), average 1,03 per game, 2nd in the league)
We have scored 8 and conceded 1 in this period 5 game period. More efficient in both ends, compared to the rest of the season where we have been one of the least efficient teams in the league. The two games against Watford and City were really impressive with few chances allowed while creating a number of chances. The other 3 games not so much. Why we are suddenly more efficient in both ends of the field, I do not know. Maybe it is because Bruno and Martial are the ones getting a large portion of the chances. Martial being by far our most efficient finisher over the last few seasons and Bruno being a good finisher. And DDG and Maguire++ working well together. Still, the underlying numbers indicate that we have not improved in our chance creation and allowing of chances... So I will not say that we are "fixed" in any way, yet. Still, the dominant victories against weaker teams like LASK, Derby and Club Brugge can be a good indicator on how we will do against weaker teams in the EPL in the future.
Regarding the general improvement of the players:
This is somewhat subjective (eye test), at least on my part, and difficult to quantifiable and subsequently making a historical comparison. I do not have the data or means to disprove that Shaw has improved, nor the importance of McT to our team (which from a Keane/Henderson perspective I agree with). So I will retract my subjective statements regarding their improvements or lack thereof.
My only expectations from OGS were that he would create a good culture within the squad (like he did at Molde) and improve our running. He has done both. Still, I do not think he and the coaches under him have shown any indications of a shift in playing style from counterattacking football towards a more controlling/possession-oriented type of play. And I do not think the type of football we play is going to get us back to the very top in world football. It is to coincidental and dependent on counter-attacking opportunities and mistakes from the opposition to be feasible over time, particularly in the league. Dominating possession in the final third and controlling most of our games, systematically breaking down teams sitting low...
@Fosu-Mens
Now bear with me. But do you think there's a possibility that we've become more efficient at both ends because of the coaching of Ole and co? That is the job of a coach, after all.
Now bear with me. But do you think there's a possibility that we've become more efficient at both ends because of the coaching of Ole and co? That is the job of a coach, after all.
Don't tell him the truth, he might never recover!He bought those players
Simply put, I now look forward to watching us play again, which hasn’t happened for a long, long time. Just look at the bench when McT scored the dagger goal against City: Bruno and Martial were hugging and jumping up and down; feckin’ loved that!
Martial has always been efficient in his finishing/shot selection. Bruno is a new player.
The defensive efficiency we have shown over the last 5 games will not last, but there is not unreasonable to think that part of the efficiency improvements are down to the players feeling good. And the manager is one of the main factors behind a squad feeling good.
I will wait with a conclusion regarding OGS and his coaches until after the last game of the season. Same as with the results he got as caretaker manager, the last 5 games have been misleading compared to expected points and goals for and against.