Gaming The Last of Us Part II (PS4)

Balljy

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The third for the trilogy will probably see abbie and Ellie working together eventually or one saving the other

And one of them dying probably Ellie to produce a cure
I think the story will revolve around the immunity, but I actually think that's a bit too obvious and almost expected. They may find a similar way to achieve it though. If Ellie had kids genetically they could have done something with that as well, but they haven't gone down that route it appears.
 

Sylar

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I think the story will revolve around the immunity, but I actually think that's a bit too obvious and almost expected. They may find a similar way to achieve it though. If Ellie had kids genetically they could have done something with that as well, but they haven't gone down that route it appears.
Maybe they introduce a character on the other side of the world who had the same genes or traits
 

Balljy

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Maybe they introduce a character on the other side of the world who had the same genes or traits
Possibly. Also, Abby knows Ellie is immune now so is likely to track her down whatever else happens.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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Finally finished it earlier and like many have said it is great overall. The pacing felt really bad at times but your investment in the story and characters drags you through what would otherwise make you extremely conscious of the fact you're doing the same shit over and over again - endlessly! When Ellie and Abby fought at the theatre I fully expected the game to be coming to an end, I was ready for it; but then Santa Barbara happens and I was a bit like ffs :rolleyes: which is a shame to be feeling that kinda way during this game.

Playing with Abby gradually had me rooting for her and as I started to loosen up on the 'attachment' to Ellie it made me realise how annoying she actually is as a personality. Like I get Ellie feels she's lost her purpose a bit with the vaccine thing and Joel getting murkt but she comes across as devoid of, well, anything. Difficult to continue empathising with her after getting familiar with a much more human Abby. I was glad Ellie didn't go through with it in the end, but even more relieved to have finally got this done!
 

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Finally finished it earlier and like many have said it is great overall. The pacing felt really bad at times but your investment in the story and characters drags you through what would otherwise make you extremely conscious of the fact you're doing the same shit over and over again - endlessly! When Ellie and Abby fought at the theatre I fully expected the game to be coming to an end, I was ready for it; but then Santa Barbara happens and I was a bit like ffs :rolleyes: which is a shame to be feeling that kinda way during this game.

Playing with Abby gradually had me rooting for her and as I started to loosen up on the 'attachment' to Ellie it made me realise how annoying she actually is as a personality. Like I get Ellie feels she's lost her purpose a bit with the vaccine thing and Joel getting murkt but she comes across as devoid of, well, anything. Difficult to continue empathising with her after getting familiar with a much more human Abby. I was glad Ellie didn't go through with it in the end, but even more relieved to have finally got this done!
Friend of mine said he hated playing as Abby because she's just a murderer, and he hated how the game apparently went out of its way to make you empathize with her. I just told him "Look, either Ellie and Abby are both sympathetic characters or they're both arseholes. The point is perspective. You support Ellie because you've spent time with her, but she's going around mass murdering everyone in her path for a revenge story that only started because Joel killed a bunch of people in cold blood." He wasn't having it, told me that Ellie and Abby are totally different because blah blah blah, Abby killed Joel.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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Friend of mine said he hated playing as Abby because she's just a murderer, and he hated how the game apparently went out of its way to make you empathize with her. I just told him "Look, either Ellie and Abby are both sympathetic characters or they're both arseholes. The point is perspective. You support Ellie because you've spent time with her, but she's going around mass murdering everyone in her path for a revenge story that only started because Joel killed a bunch of people in cold blood." He wasn't having it, told me that Ellie and Abby are totally different because blah blah blah, Abby killed Joel.
Haha it's mad (and lovely) how you can get such differing perspectives! Not in a rational way but I think everyone just loves Joel because he was the main character, lost his daughter and protected Elly means necessary but the morals are obviously not black and white but grey as is life.

It is funny that your mate sees Abby as some sort of monster though :lol: talk about tunnel vision!
 

Stack

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Friend of mine said he hated playing as Abby because she's just a murderer, and he hated how the game apparently went out of its way to make you empathize with her. I just told him "Look, either Ellie and Abby are both sympathetic characters or they're both arseholes. The point is perspective. You support Ellie because you've spent time with her, but she's going around mass murdering everyone in her path for a revenge story that only started because Joel killed a bunch of people in cold blood." He wasn't having it, told me that Ellie and Abby are totally different because blah blah blah, Abby killed Joel.
Thats funny, as mentioned by another, differing perspectives. I have to admit i hated Abby at first but by the end of the game thought she was the more likeable character.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Haha it's mad (and lovely) how you can get such differing perspectives! Not in a rational way but I think everyone just loves Joel because he was the main character, lost his daughter and protected Elly means necessary but the morals are obviously not black and white but grey as is life.

It is funny that your mate sees Abby as some sort of monster though :lol: talk about tunnel vision!
Thats funny, as mentioned by another, differing perspectives. I have to admit i hated Abby at first but by the end of the game thought she was the more likeable character.
Yeah, I absolutely despised Abby and loved how the game set her up as this illusive Big Bad who you were always trying to hunt down. Sure, I knew that there was probably a reason why she killed Joel but it was all secondary information - kind of like how you don't really feel complete empathy when someone's telling you a story unless you can see it through their eyes.

He had just made up his mind after the leaks that he wasn't going to like Abby, and nothing was going to change that for him. Shame really because he missed out on a good story, I feel.
 

padr81

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Friend of mine said he hated playing as Abby because she's just a murderer, and he hated how the game apparently went out of its way to make you empathize with her. I just told him "Look, either Ellie and Abby are both sympathetic characters or they're both arseholes. The point is perspective. You support Ellie because you've spent time with her, but she's going around mass murdering everyone in her path for a revenge story that only started because Joel killed a bunch of people in cold blood." He wasn't having it, told me that Ellie and Abby are totally different because blah blah blah, Abby killed Joel.
All things considered Abby's murder was unnecessarily dragged out and far worse than anything Ellie did in game. Ellie killed people and became a shocking terribly written character like every other character bar Lev and Yara in the game but she never dragged anything out for the sake of enjoyment. Its a massive factor in both characters. Early game Abby before she got all revengy was likable but she turned into a proper piece of shit. Ellie didn't slowly murder someone helpless on the ground to make herself feel good, that's how they aren't even comparable even though Ellie also comes off as a piece of shit.

By trying to be all shocking and push boundaries ND made Abby instantly unredeemable. Had she just killed Joel no one would have found her as bad but the fact she dragged it out for zero purpose other than she wanted to drag it out is huge. For all the murder Ellie commits to get to Abby and as cold blooded as she is, she doesn't once take enjoyment in it or do it because it makes her feel good. Even when she has Abby at the end, she doesn't try to drag it out, even gives her a fair chance.

As bad and all as the game tried to portray Ellie, she had no intention of killing Owen, Mel or the girl in the hospital who all died from Walking Dead level writing, she gave them every chance to talk. You can even see how fecked up Ellie is after torturing the girl in the hospital to talk and after killing Mel. Abby had little discomfort about slowly beating a helpless person to a pulp on the ground, or with murdering a pregnant woman or with screwing Owen behind Mels back which probably got them both killed.

I really don't think her and Ellie are remotely comparable and by the end of the game Ellie is a complete piece of shit. Abby is just on a different level.
 

Stack

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All things considered Abby's murder was unnecessarily dragged out and far worse than anything Ellie did in game. Ellie killed people and became a shocking terribly written character like every other character bar Lev and Yara in the game but she never dragged anything out for the sake of enjoyment. Its a massive factor in both characters. Early game Abby before she got all revengy was likable but she turned into a proper piece of shit. Ellie didn't slowly murder someone helpless on the ground to make herself feel good, that's how they aren't even comparable even though Ellie also comes off as a piece of shit.

By trying to be all shocking and push boundaries ND made Abby instantly unredeemable. Had she just killed Joel no one would have found her as bad but the fact she dragged it out for zero purpose other than she wanted to drag it out is huge. For all the murder Ellie commits to get to Abby and as cold blooded as she is, she doesn't once take enjoyment in it or do it because it makes her feel good. Even when she has Abby at the end, she doesn't try to drag it out, even gives her a fair chance.

As bad and all as the game tried to portray Ellie, she had no intention of killing Owen, Mel or the girl in the hospital who all died from Walking Dead level writing, she gave them every chance to talk. You can even see how fecked up Ellie is after torturing the girl in the hospital to talk and after killing Mel. Abby had little discomfort about slowly beating a helpless person to a pulp on the ground, or with murdering a pregnant woman or with screwing Owen behind Mels back which probably got them both killed.

I really don't think her and Ellie are remotely comparable and by the end of the game Ellie is a complete piece of shit. Abby is just on a different level.
I think you really missed the whole point of the way the story was written and how the characters were portrayed. Its goone whoosh completely over your head.
 

padr81

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I think you really missed the whole point of the way the story was written and how the characters were portrayed. Its goone whoosh completely over your head.
I've played the game start to finish twice and pretty sure I've missed nothing. I saw twice how the story was written... poorly and the characters were portrayed.. unlikable idiots. Lev, Yara and actually Manny aside.
 

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I really don't see how the game went out of its way to portray certain characters as terrible. That's what you make of it, I didn't get that. Flawed characters in a horrible world who are driven to do horrible things, that's what I see.
 

Amarsdd

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I really don't see how the game went out of its way to portray certain characters as terrible. That's what you make of it, I didn't get that. Flawed characters in a horrible world who are driven to do horrible things, that's what I see.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Almost all characters felt grey living in a horrible world driven to do horrible things and looking terrible only from other character's perspectives i.e. Joel from Abby's, Abby from Ellie's.

edit: Ignore my comment, I read yours completely wrong.
 
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Sylar

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Almost all characters felt grey living in a horrible world driven to do horrible things and looking terrible only from other character's perspectives i.e. Joel from Abby's, Abby from Ellie's.
Think it was in response to padr and what he thinks of Abby in general
 

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I agree with @padr81

Ellie gets an unfair rep when I don’t think her actions were worse than Abby’s.
 

padr81

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I really don't see how the game went out of its way to portray certain characters as terrible. That's what you make of it, I didn't get that. Flawed characters in a horrible world who are driven to do horrible things, that's what I see.
I don't think the game went out of its way to create Abby as some white Knight but it did cheesily villain up Ellie more through hamfistedness then intent. What I think is the game went out of its way to make Abby a decent person with flaws but couldn't pull it off because she was so cold blooded in the first place.
For me there's no redeeming someone who beats a helpless captive (who has just saved her life) continuously with a gold club when a simple bullet would have sufficed for no purpose other than emotion.

But also the game did some really cheesy things to darken Ellie... like having you look through the eyes of one of her victims while requiring you to push buttons to watch your own murder.. lots of little emotional manipulation. Imagine for a second the Joel scene and you have to play as Abby committing the murder whilst looking through Joel or even Ellies eyes?

The plot points for the characters were decent they were just carried out so over the top and hamfisted that its hard to find any of the characters redeemable, Abby in particular.
The "every villain is the hero of their own story" (Ellie) or more appropriately in this case every hero is someone else's villain (Joel to Abby, Abby to Ellie) doesn't work when the kick the dog scene is too dark.

Part of the reason the Joel killing Abby's dad was so understandable was the fact he refused to hand her over, he also chose to let the other doctors live (unless the player got trigger happy). Joels was grey, had he shot the doctor in the knee and beat him for 30 minutes for shits and giggles the ending would have felt much more like we were the bad guy. Joels choice was morally grey but selfish, you left the game thinking did he make the right choice?
Abby's could have been but instead it was black and I for one left the game thinking... she didn't have a dilemma at all, maybe minor guilt for what she did from a few lines to Lev. She made a horrid choice (in the manner of execution if not what it accomplished).

I should add I didn't hate the game totally, just thought it was hamfisted in how they applied the plot points and the characters suffered as a result.
 

Mr Pigeon

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I don't think the game went out of its way to create Abby as some white Knight but it did cheesily villain up Ellie more through hamfistedness then intent. What I think is the game went out of its way to make Abby a decent person with flaws but couldn't pull it off because she was so cold blooded in the first place.
For me there's no redeeming someone who beats a helpless captive (who has just saved her life) continuously with a gold club when a simple bullet would have sufficed for no purpose other than emotion.

But also the game did some really cheesy things to darken Ellie... like having you look through the eyes of one of her victims while requiring you to push buttons to watch your own murder.. lots of little emotional manipulation. Imagine for a second the Joel scene and you have to play as Abby committing the murder whilst looking through Joel or even Ellies eyes?

The plot points for the characters were decent they were just carried out so over the top and hamfisted that its hard to find any of the characters redeemable, Abby in particular.
The "every villain is the hero of their own story" (Ellie) or more appropriately in this case every hero is someone else's villain (Joel to Abby, Abby to Ellie) doesn't work when the kick the dog scene is too dark.

Part of the reason the Joel killing Abby's dad was so understandable was the fact he refused to hand her over, he also chose to let the other doctors live (unless the player got trigger happy). Joels was grey, had he shot the doctor in the knee and beat him for 30 minutes for shits and giggles the ending would have felt much more like we were the bad guy. Joels choice was morally grey but selfish, you left the game thinking did he make the right choice?
Abby's could have been but instead it was black and I for one left the game thinking... she didn't have a dilemma at all, maybe minor guilt for what she did from a few lines to Lev. She made a horrid choice (in the manner of execution if not what it accomplished).

I should add I didn't hate the game totally, just thought it was hamfisted in how they applied the plot points and the characters suffered as a result.
I'm sorry but as far as Abby knows; Joel was given sanctuary and then inexplicably massacred an entire building of her people and then kidnapped a little girl, basically dooming humanity. Oh, yeah, and he murdered her father as well.

You're putting way too much emphasis on how Abby tortured Joel. But, even so, he deserved it. He was a piece of shit.

They're all pieces of shit. Except maybe Jesse, I don't know. Maybe he liked to drown kittens in his spare time?
 

One Night Only

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Aren't most people in games just big pieces of shit?

For example, Lara croft and Nathan Drake just kill loads of people while stealing artifacts.
 

Sylar

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I'm sorry but as far as Abby knows; Joel was given sanctuary and then inexplicably massacred an entire building of her people and then kidnapped a little girl, basically dooming humanity. Oh, yeah, and he murdered her father as well.

You're putting way too much emphasis on how Abby tortured Joel. But, even so, he deserved it. He was a piece of shit.

They're all pieces of shit. Except maybe Jesse, I don't know. Maybe he liked to drown kittens in his spare time?
Having not played the first game yet, this is how I saw it when playing through both characters. I saw it from both perspectives especially after playing with Abby. I dont see it as a villian who is unreedamble but they are trying anyway. I see it as a human who felt she was justified.
 

Ainu

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I don't think the game went out of its way to create Abby as some white Knight but it did cheesily villain up Ellie more through hamfistedness then intent. What I think is the game went out of its way to make Abby a decent person with flaws but couldn't pull it off because she was so cold blooded in the first place.
For me there's no redeeming someone who beats a helpless captive (who has just saved her life) continuously with a gold club when a simple bullet would have sufficed for no purpose other than emotion.

But also the game did some really cheesy things to darken Ellie... like having you look through the eyes of one of her victims while requiring you to push buttons to watch your own murder.. lots of little emotional manipulation. Imagine for a second the Joel scene and you have to play as Abby committing the murder whilst looking through Joel or even Ellies eyes?

The plot points for the characters were decent they were just carried out so over the top and hamfisted that its hard to find any of the characters redeemable, Abby in particular.
The "every villain is the hero of their own story" (Ellie) or more appropriately in this case every hero is someone else's villain (Joel to Abby, Abby to Ellie) doesn't work when the kick the dog scene is too dark.

Part of the reason the Joel killing Abby's dad was so understandable was the fact he refused to hand her over, he also chose to let the other doctors live (unless the player got trigger happy). Joels was grey, had he shot the doctor in the knee and beat him for 30 minutes for shits and giggles the ending would have felt much more like we were the bad guy. Joels choice was morally grey but selfish, you left the game thinking did he make the right choice?
Abby's could have been but instead it was black and I for one left the game thinking... she didn't have a dilemma at all, maybe minor guilt for what she did from a few lines to Lev. She made a horrid choice (in the manner of execution if not what it accomplished).

I should add I didn't hate the game totally, just thought it was hamfisted in how they applied the plot points and the characters suffered as a result.
I just don't agree with the idea that they made Ellie some sort of villain. The scene you are referring to is dark and looks evil in isolation, but the way she then returns to the theater and looks completely broken, how she delivers that "I made her talk" line to Dina. It doesn't add up to ND supposedly portraying Ellie as a villain. It had the opposite effect on me, with the game showing Ellie still had her humanity and how the violence impacted her. I mean, compare that to Joel interrogating and murdering those two guys to find Ellie in the first game.
 

BusbyMalone

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Yeah, I think the characters are way more well written than some give them credit for, and certainly not "idiots".

What I think ND did well, was that they portrayed the characters in such a way that none of them were either redeemable or irredeemable. I didn't see it as black and white as that. I'm not saying the writing was 100% flawless because nearly nothing is, but I think they did a good job in telling a revenge tale in a way that felt fairly natural to the characters in it.

I found Abby an interesting character, personally. And again, for me, it wasn't about whether she redeemed herself or anything like that. I'm not even sure that was the point of it, to be honest. The only question I ever have is if this character is interesting and can I see things from their perspective. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with her, but can I understand WHY she would do something. In terms of killing Joel, I can definitely understand why she would do it. Now, how she did it was obviously extreme and psychopathic. But I guess this is something that she's been stewing on for years. It has consumed her every thought and made her bitter and angry to the point where nothing else matters. I'm not excusing her torturing him to death, but just trying to get into her psyche. You could see how scared she was at that moment, even when he's been incapacitated thanks to a shotgun to the leg.

And what I did like about that scene, and this comes down to the acting I suppose, but at no point did she take any glee or satisfaction from it. I think the futility of it all was there to see in her reaction. She was still as scared and as angry as she always has been. This didn't change that, and in fact, it just made things even worse.
 

Berbasbullet

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Yeah, I think the characters are way more well written than some give them credit for, and certainly not "idiots".

What I think ND did well, was that they portrayed the characters in such a way that none of them were either redeemable or irredeemable. I didn't see it as black and white as that. I'm not saying the writing was 100% flawless because nearly nothing is, but I think they did a good job in telling a revenge tale in a way that felt fairly natural to the characters in it.

I found Abby an interesting character, personally. And again, for me, it wasn't about whether she redeemed herself or anything like that. I'm not even sure that was the point of it, to be honest. The only question I ever have is if this character is interesting and can I see things from their perspective. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with her, but can I understand WHY she would do something. In terms of killing Joel, I can definitely understand why she would do it. Now, how she did it was obviously extreme and psychopathic. But I guess this is something that she's been stewing on for years. It has consumed her every thought and made her bitter and angry to the point where nothing else matters. I'm not excusing her torturing him to death, but just trying to get into her psyche. You could see how scared she was at that moment, even when he's been incapacitated thanks to a shotgun to the leg.

And what I did like about that scene, and this comes down to the acting I suppose, but at no point did she take any glee or satisfaction from it. I think the futility of it all was there to see in her reaction. She was still as scared and as angry as she always has been. This didn't change that, and in fact, it just made things even worse.
It kinda lent itself well to the theme of the story being that getting revenge won’t make you feel better and if anything makes it worse.
 

BusbyMalone

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It kinda lent itself well to the theme of the story being that getting revenge won’t make you feel better and if anything makes it worse.
Yeah, and I think it's something they did really well in the main. The question of whether a certain character is redeemable or irredeemable didn't really come into it for me. Again, I'm not entirely sure that was the point. At least for me, anyway. Opinions may differ.