Go on then, name 'em!
And last paragraph, nope - that position is stacked but it's not that of striker.
The position of striker is dying in the modern game, why?
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
And last paragraph, nope - that position is stacked but it's not that of striker.
For being banned or his post?
wtf, how'd that happen?True that the # of world-class scorers is low these days.
Focus has shifted to scoring from the flanks and attacking midfield. So strikers are becoming more foil oriented.
Look at the top strikers in the premier League 20 years ago..:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997–98_FA_Premier_League
The top teams also score more goals than ever before.
All that's changed is how we perceive "strikers". Different formations than 442 have lead to wide forwards and attacking midfielders scoring more.
Football has changed for the better. If you want to watch Andy Gray banging them in get the archives out..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997–98_FA_Premier_League
The top teams also score more goals than ever before.
All that's changed is how we perceive "strikers". Different formations than 442 have lead to wide forwards and attacking midfielders scoring more.
Football has changed for the better. If you want to watch Andy Gray banging them in get the archives out..
The days of complete strikers like Shearer, Batistuta, L.Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooy etc., will never be numbered. I think this trend is a little over hyped. Although, there is definitely a trend.
Just for argument sake:
- Real won 3 CLs in a row playing a number 9 (Benzema)
- France won the World Cup playing a 9 (Giroud)
- City won the Premier League with Aguero
- Bayern the Bundesliga with Lewandowski
- PSG with Cavani
- Juve with Higuain (until this season)
Those are all pure strikers, and playing regularly at some of the most successful clubs/National Teams on the planet. But because most top teams play a front 3, the focal point has to have a more rounded game and bring team mates into play more.
This is just a tactical trend. We saw a very limited Leicester side win the Premier League playing an "old fashioned" 4-4-2. And if Fergie was still around as Manager, you can bet your bottom dollar we'd still be playing two strikers for most matches, albeit one as a withdrawn 10.
Ironically, I often feel the solution to many of United's issues is to go to a more direct counter attacking style with two forwards. This I believe would bring the best out of our current crop of players.
Just for argument sake:
- Real won 3 CLs in a row playing a number 9 (Benzema)
- France won the World Cup playing a 9 (Giroud)
- City won the Premier League with Aguero
- Bayern the Bundesliga with Lewandowski
- PSG with Cavani
- Juve with Higuain (until this season)
Those are all pure strikers, and playing regularly at some of the most successful clubs/National Teams on the planet. But because most top teams play a front 3, the focal point has to have a more rounded game and bring team mates into play more.
This is just a tactical trend. We saw a very limited Leicester side win the Premier League playing an "old fashioned" 4-4-2. And if Fergie was still around as Manager, you can bet your bottom dollar we'd still be playing two strikers for most matches, albeit one as a withdrawn 10.
Ironically, I often feel the solution to many of United's issues is to go to a more direct counter attacking style with two forwards. This I believe would bring the best out of our current crop of players.
Good posts @Queiroz and @Raees
I think (especially in the Premier) the increased quality of opposition players (especially midfielders and defenders) and the popularity of pressing has made playing an out and out striker a difficult proposition.
In the case of opposition midfielders, they have a lot more quality on the ball. Even a gash team like Newcastle has a quality player like Shelvey in it's midfield. This requires a greater emphasis on ball retention for top sides who usually look to dominate the game (one reason why I think Mourinho's style won't work), and usually having a false 9 or forward who can come deep allows teams to have that extra player who is good in possession. This applies to teams who employ a low block or press.
It also seems athletic defenders are so plentiful that pacy or target-man strikers can easily be neutralized and become passengers in matches, especially when facing a low block. Technically adept defenders also relate to my previous point about midfielders, it's just easier for smaller clubs to play with the ball on the ground.
In regards to pressing, I remember when a 4-4-2 was popular. Teams would have poacher and a playmaking forward partnered together (sometimes a big target man with a pacy poacher and or a false 9 with a big physical poacher). But with pressing 2 striker setups are a luxury only a few teams seem to be able to pull off. Managers now seem the prefer adding another body in midfield and utilize a technical goalscoring forward who can drop deep so they a) aren't overrun by the opposition pressing or b) can press and overrun the opposition's midfield.
I believe the Kanes, Firminos, and Benzemas will be the norm for top sides, and Lukakus (strikers with pace) will end up transitioning to inverted or traditional wingers. In a way, wingers are the new strikers.
I think (especially in the Premier) the increased quality of opposition players (especially midfielders and defenders) and the popularity of pressing has made playing an out and out striker a difficult proposition.
In the case of opposition midfielders, they have a lot more quality on the ball. Even a gash team like Newcastle has a quality player like Shelvey in it's midfield. This requires a greater emphasis on ball retention for top sides who usually look to dominate the game (one reason why I think Mourinho's style won't work), and usually having a false 9 or forward who can come deep allows teams to have that extra player who is good in possession. This applies to teams who employ a low block or press.
It also seems athletic defenders are so plentiful that pacy or target-man strikers can easily be neutralized and become passengers in matches, especially when facing a low block. Technically adept defenders also relate to my previous point about midfielders, it's just easier for smaller clubs to play with the ball on the ground.
In regards to pressing, I remember when a 4-4-2 was popular. Teams would have poacher and a playmaking forward partnered together (sometimes a big target man with a pacy poacher and or a false 9 with a big physical poacher). But with pressing 2 striker setups are a luxury only a few teams seem to be able to pull off. Managers now seem the prefer adding another body in midfield and utilize a technical goalscoring forward who can drop deep so they a) aren't overrun by the opposition pressing or b) can press and overrun the opposition's midfield.
I believe the Kanes, Firminos, and Benzemas will be the norm for top sides, and Lukakus (strikers with pace) will end up transitioning to inverted or traditional wingers. In a way, wingers are the new strikers.
I agree. Messi is the prototype false 9 and Ronaldo the prototype goalscoring winger.
But what you've done there is highlight that these are all old wave strikers. If these clubs all had to replace these 30+ year old strikers, where would they go and who would they turn to? There's Kane and Dybala as the next wave, but who else?
One of the reasons we went for Lukaku was the dearth of striking talent to choose from. Hindsight is lazy, and I'm not going to use it against the player, but even at the time, it was only he and Morata to choose from because that vast pool of striking talent just waiting for their shot at the big time no longer exists.
I think @Raees was right in saying that the impression the false nine left on the upcoming coaches of the time was stark and the 'consequences' are being felt now as they've come to maturity and are having their time. Strikers aren't coming through in their droves, instead, we're getting hopefuls who may, possibly, one day slot into the middle of the pitch, but it's far from certain and all the art and nuance of the actual role is far from a given for them as playing out wide is decidedly easier than through the middle.
Players want the easy option which is playing out wide as a wide forward these days. No such thing as wingers anymore either. The old wingers play full back now so aren’t as tough to play against.
Well it's hugely subjective, as I said you never really know until they are ~27 and at their peak (think Francis Jeffers as a prime example of this) but I'll hazard a guess at a few young ones who play/have played up top and will be great players:
MBappe, Jesus, Richarlison, Cutrone, Piatek, Martial, the two Demebeles, Selke at Hertha supposed to be v promising, Pellegri supposed to be amazing (will be interesting given he's now learning from Henry), George Weah's son at PSG
What about:
Kane
Icardi
Jesus
Cutrone
Lukaku
Werner
Belotti
Andre Silva
I agree there is a little dip but it would be a huge overreaction to say the position is dying.
Kane
Icardi
Jesus
Cutrone
Lukaku
Werner
Belotti
Andre Silva
I agree there is a little dip but it would be a huge overreaction to say the position is dying.
What are we actually arguing here? A lack of #9's in general, or a lack of top quality #9's?
If you wanted to defend your point of view that the position isn't dying you probably shouldn't have named André freaking Silva.
Firstly, most teams play one striker now, whereas it traditionally used to be two. That means there’s half the pool of strikers playing regularly for a start.
The other reason I can think of is that, in the modern system, the lone striker is used as more of a “target man” holding the ball and creating space for the wide players and attacking central player/s - meaning that it’s a less. “glamorous” role - think Firmino last season, doing a lot of the “donkey work” to allow Mane, Salah and Coutinho to look good.
The other reason I can think of is that, in the modern system, the lone striker is used as more of a “target man” holding the ball and creating space for the wide players and attacking central player/s - meaning that it’s a less. “glamorous” role - think Firmino last season, doing a lot of the “donkey work” to allow Mane, Salah and Coutinho to look good.
Probably the insistence on complete players. The poachers is becoming toxic to fans that want their forwards to be Messi or Ronaldoesque, instead of simply effective in the Inzaghi / RVN mold.
The lack of teams playing with two strikers. The second striker position is dead which means that lone strikers have to be more complete. In the past 1 striker would be anti ball while the other would be about the ball. Movement off of each other. Nowadays teams tend to use players we used to seen as second strikers as lone forwards.
They will be back soon enough.
Remember when counter attacking football was completely dead and possession football was in? Then Bayern smashed Barca and Madrid smashed Bayern the following year and all of a sudden break neck counter attack was fashionable again.
Football has trends. The best teams play the way that suits them. The ones chasing them adjust their approach to find an edge and that ripples down through the levels. At some point, a few classical world class strikers will emerge and their approach will be emulated because it’ll be seen as the way to win in the modern era and we will be wondering where all the inside forwards and false 9s have gone.
Remember when counter attacking football was completely dead and possession football was in? Then Bayern smashed Barca and Madrid smashed Bayern the following year and all of a sudden break neck counter attack was fashionable again.
Football has trends. The best teams play the way that suits them. The ones chasing them adjust their approach to find an edge and that ripples down through the levels. At some point, a few classical world class strikers will emerge and their approach will be emulated because it’ll be seen as the way to win in the modern era and we will be wondering where all the inside forwards and false 9s have gone.
Some valid points here.
Pressing football..posession based football..false 9..winger striker..etc has changed football.Thats why traditional strikers like lukaku and coaches like mouriniho are struggling.
Pressing football..posession based football..false 9..winger striker..etc has changed football.Thats why traditional strikers like lukaku and coaches like mouriniho are struggling.
I think in the last 15yrs football changed. Football is faster more technical the big giant players have been sacrificed for smaller, shorter, very mobile lighter players. Nowadays players cover 13-15km easily in a game, I bet in the 80s hardly will players cover 9km. Now it favours guys that can run fast and run longer. So bigger guys will suffer
Also it eliminated specialists for generalists. Think of it, when did the requirement for a goalkeeper start including playing with his feet. Older keepers are just evaluated based on the saves they can make and reflexes now their ball playing skills is almost as important as shot stopping
Now Central defenders. Gone were the days when the job of a defender is to stop attack and boot the ball away, Now every defender has to be able to play from the back even if their defensive abilities suffer. Also rules of the games have changed, the tackles you shake hands over in the 80s will land you in jail now, Center backs were allowed to be slow and mean. Now they have to be as fast as everyone. Tactics changed too. Now its more dependent on space than before, thats why almost every top team will play a high line and have a 40yards free space between last defender and keeper. So pace is key.
For a DM before it was ability to tackle, now its your ability to cover space and pass(Busquets). The AM of old were hardly required to do any defensive work, they were the king just pass the ball to them and they will create chances with their brilliance and elegance, Nowadays they are expected to run and press. Wingers are not only expected to cross they are expected to be a major source of goals. The olden days winger got dropped to full backs(Jesus Navas, Young, Valencia)
Now to attack, This is where the 9 suffered because they couldn't cope with the pace, they got eliminated almost completely and the Support striker who had more ball holding skills, who can drop deep were made to bulk up and play as lone strikers, Most strikers for top clubs at the beginning of their careers were support strikers. Morata Lewandoski, Benzema Suarez, Aguero, Henry, RvP. Its not uncommon to evaluate strikers on how much they can hold up play, pass, play with their back to goal instead of the old fashioned fox in the box who just stick it in the net
Tactics also changed. 4-4-2 which was the preferred tactics then favored target men. Now a 442 will most certainly lose to a 443, 5231 or 451 because the 2 men in front wont even get the ball since the midfield will be outnumbered
Also football went more scientific not just based on natural abilities, modern techniques were introduced into training, diets and match analysis where every coach is using technology to gain some advantage. Before its common to see footballers drink and smoke. Mario Basler was a chain smoker, Old highlights of matches I have seen some players smoke on the sidelines. Nowadays you cannot, you are placed on a strict diet and training regimen.
Football changed and the target men were the major casualty
Also it eliminated specialists for generalists. Think of it, when did the requirement for a goalkeeper start including playing with his feet. Older keepers are just evaluated based on the saves they can make and reflexes now their ball playing skills is almost as important as shot stopping
Now Central defenders. Gone were the days when the job of a defender is to stop attack and boot the ball away, Now every defender has to be able to play from the back even if their defensive abilities suffer. Also rules of the games have changed, the tackles you shake hands over in the 80s will land you in jail now, Center backs were allowed to be slow and mean. Now they have to be as fast as everyone. Tactics changed too. Now its more dependent on space than before, thats why almost every top team will play a high line and have a 40yards free space between last defender and keeper. So pace is key.
For a DM before it was ability to tackle, now its your ability to cover space and pass(Busquets). The AM of old were hardly required to do any defensive work, they were the king just pass the ball to them and they will create chances with their brilliance and elegance, Nowadays they are expected to run and press. Wingers are not only expected to cross they are expected to be a major source of goals. The olden days winger got dropped to full backs(Jesus Navas, Young, Valencia)
Now to attack, This is where the 9 suffered because they couldn't cope with the pace, they got eliminated almost completely and the Support striker who had more ball holding skills, who can drop deep were made to bulk up and play as lone strikers, Most strikers for top clubs at the beginning of their careers were support strikers. Morata Lewandoski, Benzema Suarez, Aguero, Henry, RvP. Its not uncommon to evaluate strikers on how much they can hold up play, pass, play with their back to goal instead of the old fashioned fox in the box who just stick it in the net
Tactics also changed. 4-4-2 which was the preferred tactics then favored target men. Now a 442 will most certainly lose to a 443, 5231 or 451 because the 2 men in front wont even get the ball since the midfield will be outnumbered
Also football went more scientific not just based on natural abilities, modern techniques were introduced into training, diets and match analysis where every coach is using technology to gain some advantage. Before its common to see footballers drink and smoke. Mario Basler was a chain smoker, Old highlights of matches I have seen some players smoke on the sidelines. Nowadays you cannot, you are placed on a strict diet and training regimen.
Football changed and the target men were the major casualty
There is a bit of a dip but you have players like Kane carrying the torch. Hes not a light pacey player nor is he going to throw in 4 stepovers into a rabona goal.
Traditional i guess in his style of play being a target man. But with the fitness of a modern style footballer to press from the front.
Icardi, Benzema, Lukaku, there are a few. But I agree that there is a bit of a dip.
Traditional i guess in his style of play being a target man. But with the fitness of a modern style footballer to press from the front.
Icardi, Benzema, Lukaku, there are a few. But I agree that there is a bit of a dip.