The Problem with Manchester United's Full-Backs - The Athletic

[Zlatattack]

Interesting little video from TifoFootball/The Athletic.


In summary;

• AWB is a better defender than attacker, does get into attacking positions but we tend to build up on the left rather than the right.
• Shaw doesn't overlap often enough, Telles does but we tend to ignore him
• Williams better suited to the right rather than the left

What do you guys think?

 

[Greck]

(Without watching the video yet) Shaw is a decent passer and alright in buildup but his final delivery is godawful. The AWB conundrum was visible from 10 miles away. Valencia got killed for having little attacking contribution and the first thing we do is turn around and buy a replacement with even worse ball skills. This kind of basic oversight is why Woodward gets killed. Sometimes it's unfair but he really doesn't help himself sanctioning transfers that show a lack of an overarching strategy. Don't necessarily care who the manager is, there has to be someone ready to veto transfers when they fall out of the vision of the rebuild. Say this despite actually liking AWB. He's already at the club so might as well

 

[Zlatattack]

(Without watching the video yet) Shaw is a decent passer and alright in buildup but his final delivery is godawful. The AWB conundrum was visible from 10 miles away. Valencia got killed for having little attacking contribution and the first thing we do is turn around and buy a replacement with even worse ball skills. This kind of basic oversight is why Woodward gets killed. Sometimes it's unfair but he really doesn't help himself sanctioning transfers that show a lack of an overarching strategy. Don't necessarily care who the manager is, there has to be someone ready to veto transfers when they fall out of the vision of the rebuild. Say this despite actually liking AWB. He's already at the club so might as well

People keep saying he used to be play on the RW, surely he's got some midfield ability in him? Mind you maybe that's why he's RB atm.

 

[OleBoiii]

Ole when managing Molde:

- High line
- Attacking fullbacks
- All central midfielders comfortable with the ball in their feet
- Front 3 having little to no defensive responsibilities

The latter is the only part that is true of Ole's United. I think both AWB and Shaw(particularly the latter) can attack, but Ole is evidently not comfortable with his team pushing too high. And I don't blame him. I think the style he played with Molde(which is kind of Pep-esque) is suicide with this team.

 

[Adam-Utd]

The biggest issue is AWB doesn't know how to time his forward runs, or move into attacking areas at the right time.

He's often too deep, or ends up too high and has no momentum to run at people. He isn't THAT bad once he gets into attacking positions, but he needs to work on getting there and overlapping at the right time to earn himself space.

 

[Harry190]

The biggest issue is AWB doesn't know how to time his forward runs, or move into attacking areas at the right time.

He's often too deep, or ends up too high and has no momentum to run at people. He isn't THAT bad once he gets into attacking positions, but he needs to work on getting there and overlapping at the right time to earn himself space.

This would all make sense if he actually had any support on the right. He doesn't. There's no one playing up there. He has to do everything.

 

[Smores]

The biggest issue is AWB doesn't know how to time his forward runs, or move into attacking areas at the right time.

He's often too deep, or ends up too high and has no momentum to run at people. He isn't THAT bad once he gets into attacking positions, but he needs to work on getting there and overlapping at the right time to earn himself space.

Isn't that what our coaches are supposed to do? Have we just stopped watching games back and working with players on areas of their game since LvG when they stropped?

It's the bit that baffles me about us under Ole. I can't see a progression in individuals weaknesses.

 

[Adam-Utd]

This would all make sense if he actually had any support on the right. He doesn't. There's no one playing up there. He has to do everything.

Which is also part of the issue, I've made plenty of posts about this before (our wingers/forwards move too narrow far too early). They should be keeping wide when the ball is on their side of the pitch. Instead they tuck inside and stand facing our midfield which is frankly pointless. If they kept the width more they could hold the ball until the fullback overlaps which will buy them time to give a 1-2 to a forward/midfielder in the box or lay it to the overlapping fullback for an easy cut back/cross into the box.

It's no wonder we struggle to break down deep lying defences because we have no patterns of play like this.

Isn't that what our coaches are supposed to do? Have we just stopped watching games back and working with players on areas of their game since LvG when they stropped?

It's the bit that baffles me about us under Ole. I can't see a progression in individuals weaknesses.

No idea to be honest mate, certain things you watch and just think what are we doing in training? we clearly don't work on patterns of play, I think Ole likes them to be a bit more freeform and we probably drill for counter attacks quite regularly as they do seem to work quite nicely, but at some point you have to learn how to recycle the ball and keep pressure up. Fergie was fantastic at that, you knew once we had a team pinned back we would make them cave under pressure.

 

[Eugenius]

This would all make sense if he actually had any support on the right. He doesn't. There's no one playing up there. He has to do everything.

Agree. The issue with AWB is that we build up slowly and whenever he gets the ball he's always 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2, rather than breaking the lines. Needs a winger playing closer to him for that to work.

 

[andersj]

Agree. The issue with AWB is that we build up slowly and whenever he gets the ball he's always 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2, rather than breaking the lines. Needs a winger playing closer to him for that to work.

I think no matter who plays infront of him he will play 50 % of his passes to the CB next to him. Was the same at Palace when he played with Zaha infront of him.

Very good without the ball. Not good at PL-level with the ball. Simple as that.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Agree. The issue with AWB is that we build up slowly and whenever he gets the ball he's always 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2, rather than breaking the lines. Needs a winger playing closer to him for that to work.

Exactly. It'd also be impossible for him to be that attacking when from a defensive standpoint he's clearly also been asked to tuck in when we lose possession and he comes in really narrow as well when we are retreating towards our own goal. Against Brighton people were slating him for that ball they kept playing over to his side when it was a tactical decision.

He's only human so we can't expect him to be taking players on when the RW is vacant & then having the pace and stamina to get back into position every time we lose the ball (which is every 9 in 10 attacks given our tactics) - he'd leave Lindelof completely exposed to any striker with half a yard of pace and be dead by half time.

 

[Murray3007]

problem is simple AWB is great in a one v one battle with the ball on the ground, but lets be honest every other single thing he is poor at, poor in the air, positioning is awful, cant defend the back post, has no idea how to go forward, gets the ball and just strolls with it, never any urgency.


Telles defensively and position wise is very poor, going forward a massive threat although don't think we find him enough so far. minds me a lot of kolorov who was at city

Shaw bit better then Telles defensively but again like AWB very rarely shows urgency going forward. to many times rather then attempt a cross stops the play and passes backwards.

really both positions can be improved rather easily to be honest but wont because we have invested alot of cash in to them and really wont get much back now.

 

[Irwin99]

We haven't had great all round fullbacks for years now. AWB and Shaw are very good players on their day with some excellent attributes but I never feel they'll ever be at the elite level that some of our best teams have had, and it's what we should be looking toward.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

There were signs that AWB could improve his attacking input when he first came to us. I think the criticism of his attacking play was sometimes unjustified because he had some good games and no worse than Shaw while being oslid at the back but lately I´ ve been thinking he doesn´t seem to be up to take that step forward and it´s starting to be frustrating. I think it´s all down to his confidence which seems to be low at many occasions. He´s got tremendous acceleration, can beat a player but hardly tries to do that. I mean similarly to LAV when he always cut back and played it to a CB or to a dropping CM with the outside of his foot.

Him and Lindelof should really start to take some responsibility or they will be replaced. When you are a United player you shouldn´t hide and play it simple so you don´t make a mistake. I know Roy Keane wouldn´t be happy with that.

 

[VP89]

AWB isn't good offensively, I think that's a major issue. I think Telles has shown some good moments in advanced areas though. He's always looking for a risky pass, early cross and links up well enough too. Think he assisted Greenwood against West Ham.

 

[Eugenius]

I think no matter who plays infront of him he will play 50 % of his passes to the CB next to him. Was the same at Palace when he played with Zaha infront of him.

Very good without the ball. Not good at PL-level with the ball. Simple as that.

Let's not forget that we made CL finals with both Wes Brown and John O'Shea at right back. Just played in a lot more fluid teams and with an actual winger ahead of them.

 

[georgipep]

Interesting little video from TifoFootball/The Athletic.


In summary;

• AWB is a better defender than attacker, does get into attacking positions but we tend to build up on the left rather than the right.
• Shaw doesn't overlap often enough, Telles does but we tend to ignore him
• Williams better suited to the right rather than the left

What do you guys think?

Ridiculous analysis that suggests that while United's fullbacks attack, opposition midfield does nothing to cover their defence. The issues with our fullbacks were more on the obvious side but the tactical acumen of the analyst is...let's say, 'poor'. When our fullbacks have a significant role to play in our attack build-ups, we're, in general, talking about the slower, possession based moves, not the counters. And in those, midfielders in their positioning and blocking passing lines, are absolutely crucial in both sides. I mean...putting Bruno in the mix there but no opposition midfielder? Ri-di-cu-lous!

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Those are too obvious except..

Williams better suited to the right rather than the left

This conclusion is odd.
Every time I see him on the right, he's too awkward. More natural and comfortable when he's on the left where he can switch between cutting in or going outwards.

Not sure where the time-markers are him explaining his reasoning about Will.
17 mins is too much time for me to waste, no offense to the video makers or OP, but most of it are too obvious. We know already about AWB, Shaw and where we normally play and build-up. We're too left-centric.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Let's not forget that we made CL finals with both Wes Brown and John O'Shea at right back. Just played in a lot more fluid teams and with an actual winger ahead of them.

True.
Maybe because we had good systems, good coaching and good balances (actually having good right widths) at those times.

 

[Champ]

Our full backs are left exposed due to playing inside forwards instead of wingers who can do both defensive as well as attacking duties.
Not rocket science and don't think it really necessitates an adult playing tactics on a tablet.
These videos strike me as the Athletic trying to be clever and deep with their analysis, instead it just smacks of highlighting the obvious in a different way.

 

[andersj]

Let's not forget that we made CL finals with both Wes Brown and John O'Shea at right back. Just played in a lot more fluid teams and with an actual winger ahead of them.

First, it was different times. Second, both of them were quite good in their decision making on the pitch. They had tactical nounce on the ball, in lack of better word. They came from a great acadamy, and had a very good football education. They were not talented on the ball or anything. Probably even less so than AWB. But they knew how to pass the ball.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I enjoyed the video because it didn't just say 'ole doesn't coach the team' and end after 4 seconds

 

[Isotope]

I wonder if people actually remember how Brown was, when they compare him to AWB.

 

[Zlatattack]

In my opinion AWB has the pace/stamina, but doesn't have the end product. Shaw doesn't cover enough of the pitch, and doesn't overlap often enough - his end product is reasonable, but nothing to write home about.

In the video they quoted someone saying that Shaw is the type of player who raises the floor, rather than pushes the ceiling, ie - he's pretty good, but he's not great.

We need a real LB, too early for me to comment on Telles as i've not seen enough of him. As for AWB, he's a great player for another side. Unfortunately he's very expensive so we're stuck with a very good defensive right back in an era where fullbacks are attacking players. We need a Sancho or an out and out RW to provide regular attacking intent on the RHS.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

The gulf in class between our fullbacks and Liverpool's is maybe the major reason why we will find it very hard to win the title.

 

[UnitedAkhi]

We have 2 English full backs who can't even get into the England squad. There was a time being a United player was good enough to get you there or thereabouts .

I'm hoping Telles can have a similar influence to TAA, seems similar in attributes, good crosser, not especially pacy with some defensive frailty.

Quality full backs are so key in the modern game, they are often your out ball and your additional attackers when trying to stretch stubborn defences and switch play. Having said that, our problem of breaking teams down seems to have quietened recently so maybe we are beginning to strike the balance.

 

[Isotope]

The gulf in class between our fullbacks and Liverpool's is maybe the major reason why we will find it very hard to win the title.

Yeh. We just have a fullback who's decent when attacking. And they shit on him because he can't defend.

 

[hobbers]

Obvious stuff. AWB isn't good with the ball. Shaw isn't much better though for some reason people seem to think he is. Telles has an excellent cross but we as a team haven't really figured that out yet, a lot of the recent starts we've been playing so ridiculously narrow in the first half of games.

Williams is not a good left back, no way does he have a future as a left back. Rubbish going forward with the ball on the left.

If we can get a right back with the equivalent or better quality on the ball than Telles we might be in business. But that comes back to why we need a top right winger so desperately, because with a top quality winger it might somewhat cover up AWB's weaknesses.

 

[archiebald]

People keep saying he used to be play on the RW, surely he's got some midfield ability in him? Mind you maybe that's why he's RB atm.

His lack of ability on the ball is precisely the reason he got moved to RB. Credit to the Palace coaching staff for realising this and shifting him appropriately - eventually flogging him to us for 50m!

 

[Mibabalou]

I wonder if people actually remember how Brown was, when they compare him to AWB.

I know its crazy to say but the game is much much different to what it was 10/15 years ago.

I think this can all be sorted out by Telles. The obvious plan is to have a staggered back 4 with AWB being more defensive and Telles a de facto winger. Issue is like this vid said we attack from the right channel too much and throws off our attacking balance. If we were to finally get a real RW i think the fullback problem becomes less obvious.

Again the balance will be sorted out even more so when we FINALLY buy a real RW and stop shoehorning 10's and STs there.

 

[Isotope]

I know its crazy to say but the game is much much different to what it was 10/15 years ago.

I think this can all be sorted out by Telles. The obvious plan is to have a staggered back 4 with AWB being more defensive and Telles a de facto winger. Issue is like this vid said we attack from the right channel too much and throws off our attacking balance. If we were to finally get a real RW i think the fullback problem becomes less obvious.

Again the balance will be sorted out even more so when we FINALLY buy a real RW and stop shoehorning 10's and STs there.

Yes, it's crazy to say. What's this "much much difference", between 2020 and 2010/2005 games/style/tactic?

Brown was twice the player AWB is. Brown was a proper defender, good on heading and positioning. And other than not much creativity, people never had problem with Brown's passing or keeping the ball.

 

[Mibabalou]

Yes, it's crazy to say. What's this "much much difference", between 2020 and 2010/2005 games/style/tactic?

Brown was twice the player AWB is. Brown was a proper defender, good on heading and positioning. And other than not much creativity, people never had problem with Brown's passing or keeping the ball.

The role of the fullback has massively changed in that time period. Players like Abidal, Brown, Ivanovic, even Ramos was a RB. But the game changed and I bet all those would be playing CB now. The physicality and aerial ability those players had now isnt valued as much as speed and attacking.

I think I read these was more money spent on fullbacks than STs in the summer!

I would say overall the game is more about legs now with pressing and counterpressing and pining teams back in their third to create turn overs so you have fullbacks like TAA, Alba, Davies, Digne, Navas all playing fullback while they would have played winger 10 years ago.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The biggest issue is AWB doesn't know how to time his forward runs, or move into attacking areas at the right time.

He's often too deep, or ends up too high and has no momentum to run at people. He isn't THAT bad once he gets into attacking positions, but he needs to work on getting there and overlapping at the right time to earn himself space.

I don't think it's him refusing to make overlapping runs. It appears to be a tactic for both fullbacks not to do that.

 

[Isotope]

The role of the fullback has massively changed in that time period. Players like Abidal, Brown, Ivanovic, even Ramos was a RB. But the game changed and I bet all those would be playing CB now. The physicality and aerial ability those players had now isnt valued as much as speed and attacking.

I think I read these was more money spent on fullbacks than STs in the summer!

I would say overall the game is more about legs now with pressing and counterpressing and pining teams back in their third to create turn overs so you have fullbacks like TAA, Alba, Davies, Digne, Navas all playing fullback while they would have played winger 10 years ago.

Massively changed? There were so many team playing with attacking fullbacks more than 10-15 years ago, I don't know how you missed them all.

 

[Polar]

I also think a static Martial, or the fact that we didn’t have a genuine nr 9 (Cavani, Bezema or Haaland), was part of the problem. I often see full-backs become more determined, confident and focused when they can relate to better moves and positioning inside the box. Hopefully Cavani is able to do something with that.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I don't think it's him refusing to make overlapping runs. It appears to be a tactic for both fullbacks not to do that.

I'm not saying he refuses, i'm saying he doesn't know how to time them or sense when the right moment to do it. It doesn't come natural to him.

Defensively he is awake and sniffs danger well, but they need to work with him on how to do this regularly as it would make a huge difference.

He's got the speed and he's not a bad crosser, just better movement and timing needed.

 

[MadDogg]

This would all make sense if he actually had any support on the right. He doesn't. There's no one playing up there. He has to do everything.

That can be a complaint when the actual play is happening on the right. But what really frustrates me is when we're playing down the left , our right winger has come into the centre and the defender has followed him so there's a huge amount of space on the right with no opposition player. AWB should be in that position, making himself available for a quick switch of play so that a midfielder or defender can swing it out to him and he can get on the attack straight away. Instead he's regularly back almost level with the central defence, meaning if we do swing the ball out to him the opposition still have plenty of time to move over before he can actually do anything.

Think of how often the likes of Scholes, Carrick, Rooney and Pogba would find our rightback rushing into that area. Particularly Valencia - he'd often frustrate with what he'd do when he got into those positions but he'd always be making himself available and we'd use that cross field ball numerous times every match. We rarely do these days because when we look to do it AWB is about 15 metres too deep. Not always, but often enough that it's frustrating as hell.

 

[MadDogg]

AWB has a decent final ball once he actually gets into the right position. It's getting into those positions and helping out with the build-up that he struggles with.

Shaw is quite good with the build-up, but his final ball is fairly poor and he also struggles to get into the right positions. Every now and then he does get a run of games where he seems to put it all together though but unfortunately it only seems to last 5-10 games and then he gets injured.

 

[BFernandes]

Not sure we needed a video for that.

It's something people on here have been talking about since the beginning.

 

[STYLOISRED]

Ridiculous analysis that suggests that while United's fullbacks attack, opposition midfield does nothing to cover their defence. The issues with our fullbacks were more on the obvious side but the tactical acumen of the analyst is...let's say, 'poor'. When our fullbacks have a significant role to play in our attack build-ups, we're, in general, talking about the slower, possession based moves, not the counters. And in those, midfielders in their positioning and blocking passing lines, are absolutely crucial in both sides. I mean...putting Bruno in the mix there but no opposition midfielder? Ri-di-cu-lous!

I was starting to wonder if i was the only one that found the analysis really poor. First he mentions AWB being poor in attack but fails to mention that one of his biggest strengths is actually ball carrying. Then he says luke shaw doesn't make runs which is false and shows that he hasn't watched our games. After lockdown dere was a significant change in the way Luke shaw and Rashford play off each other. Rashford maintains width will Luke shaw makes runs not across the byline but into the half space creating space for Rashford to make a through pass or those Infield crosses that he does. I watched this particular move cause chaos in the opposition backline quite a few times.
For me the biggest problm is a lack of proper RW to form passing traingles with AWB and the midfielder. Until we have a proper RW, AWB will continue to struggle.