The Reality Draft - Finals: VivaJanuzaj vs antohan

[Mani]

Defensive left side of Anto worries me here,especially with the way he had set up his team and once he lose the possession, viva can counter attack.
Also not sure with his penetration pass, when the space become compact for anto to find the right pass to Baggio or Vieri.

 

[Balu]

So if I assume its a replica of that, I think VJ will win.

It's not, it's much closer to the Hungary side in '54 actually. I just think that Sammer's role isn't too different than Rijkaard's at Ajax and it's overall less adventurous than it looks like on paper. If anto's forced to drop back, which will rarely happen, he has the players to transform into a side that can do a great job temporarily, that's an added bonus in my book, not a disadvantage.

And I really believe that Viva's team isn't great at counterattacks, so he simply can't exploit that at all. He needed a different type of striker than Romario in my opinion, someone who's great at hold-up play, gives him the chance to go over the midfield battle and allows Rummenigge or Enzo to play off him. I just see 3 individuals upfront and they all need to do something on their own and they rarely get the ball, because the only way forward for Viva is carrying the ball through midfield and that's a bad idea against anto's tactics. A moment of magic might give you a win from time to time against the run of play, but clearly not often enough to win my vote here. Anto's team should win this 7 out of 10 times.

 

[MJJ]

It's not, it's much closer to the Hungary side in '54 actually. I just think that Sammer's role isn't too different than Rijkaard's at Ajax and it's overall less adventurous than it looks like on paper. If anto's forced to drop back, which will rarely happen, he has the players to transform into a side that can do a great job temporarily, that's an added bonus in my book, not a disadvantage.

And I really believe that Viva's team isn't great at counterattacks, so he simply can't exploit that at all. He needed a different type of striker than Romario in my opinion, someone who's great at hold-up play, gives him the chance to go over the midfield battle and allows Rummenigge or Enzo to play off him. I just see 3 individuals upfront and they all need to do something on their own and they rarely get the ball, because the only way forward for Viva is carrying the ball through midfield and that's a bad idea against anto's tactics. A moment of magic might give you a win from time to time against the run of play, but clearly not often enough to win my vote here. Anto's team should win this 7 out of 10 times.

Ahh, in that case I would have to change my vote.

 

[RoadTrip]

I have no idea who I will vote for but @antohan that GIF... Amazing.

 

[Gio]

In general I think defenders who played in high lines are always underrated and treated a bit unfairly in draft games, especially in comparison to the 80'a and 90's defenders who were usually part of a deep sitting brick wall with more than enough protection around them and yes, that makes defending easier.

Agreed. That's where I see Thiago Silva getting under-rated - he's more mobile and slicker on the ball than many of the big-hitters of the 1980s and 1990s.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Hang on - both Theon and MJJ have voted. Is that kosher? And if so, which of 'em has the double vote?

@Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[RoadTrip]

I've gone for Anto. I really do like Boniek and Nedved, a great pair of wingers, and I do like my wingers! There's obviously a few more things that have swayed me that way too. Overall just feel like Anto's team has a great balance.

 

[MJJ]

Hang on - both Theon and MJJ have voted. Is that kosher? And if so, which of 'em has the double vote?

@Edgar Allan Pillow

Its not like we have a horse in the race anymore, dont see why our votes wont be allowed.

Also, theon really should have the double vote.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Its not like we have a horse in the race anymore, dont see why our votes wont be allowed.

That's true - but the question of the double vote is important.

 

[MJJ]

That's true - but the question of the double vote is important.

Give it to theon, he did 99% of the work anyway.

 

[antohan]

From the little I have read and watched , in Van Gaal side the midfielders were the one who would drop to track the runners while the wingers stayed up to provide an out ball. Anto is having his wingers track both the fullbacks back.

Although I dont think the changes are minor, as the wingers were more like wing forward in Van Gaal and he really struggled when overmars was injured while here they seem to be like defensive wingers? That along with everything else means the uniqueness of that system which made it work is lost here. So if I assume its a replica of that, I think VJ will win.

But if he is playing a traditional 3-5-2 then I think he will have an edge as he can just move the ball around and have VJ chasing shadows. And VJ doesnt have the players to exploit the weaknesses of the system.

I didn't mention LVGs Ajax a single time in my writeup. In fact, it never crossed my mind.

Effenberg and Neeskens in midfield instead of Davids/Seedorf, and Nedved/Boniek on the wings instead of Overmars and Finidi. It's quite clearly a 3-5-2 more along the lines of the Hungarian side, with the only influence from that van Gaal side possibly being Sammer's role being similar to Rijkaard's. When I said "Dutch-style" I was thinking about an entire school of thought, not a single team in the 90s.

It's interesting I would be "more exposed" as a result of having two wingers that actually do defensive work, leaving the CMs to protect the defence centrally instead of running down the wings providing cover.

 

[Gio]

What's the score here?

 

[antohan]

Depends what Seedorf Viva has in mind, the AC Milan version.. his passing was a lot better than the young Seedorf - see below the assist. If you're playing on the counter which Viva will have to do.. it isn't about creative passing per se but just being able to make accurate long range passes into space to get it to feet for your attackers to run at a defence which is high up the pitch. Enzo is probably the silky creative type in this team.. one touch into his feet and I'm sure he can hit a diagonal in behind Abidal for Rumenigge to latch onto. Nevertheless I agree that it is going to rely heavily on Romario conjuring dangerous moments out of nothing, but if there is one striker who can do that - it is Romario. One v one Romario can take on anyone especially if in peak form.

Either way I can't see this being a clean sheet for either team. Look at the side Romario is playing for, nature of the midfield set up.. barely any creativity behind him and compare it to the centre-back partnership he is up against.. he ran them ragged as soon as he got the ball to feet.. it took an amazing performance by Baresi to keep him quiet (in a very defensive set up) and even then he could have scored a brace at the very least - this match is on the counter against weaker defenders. He's a different player to a Messi.. because he is so damn direct and can go either way. One v one.. lethal.

So you are basing your vote on a game where Romario played against a completely different side, which went about playing football in a completely different way, where he didn't score but claiming if the defence hadn't been as good he would have scored?

That's innovative.

Italy invited teams onto them and hit them back, the entire point was they relied on their defence. I don't, I rely on having possession, making it count at the other end and choking the source.

 

[MJJ]

I didn't mention LVGs Ajax a single time in my writeup. In fact, it never crossed my mind.

Effenberg and Neeskens in midfield instead of Davids/Seedorf, and Nedved/Boniek on the wings instead of Overmars and Finidi. It's quite clearly a 3-5-2 more along the lines of the Hungarian side, with the only influence from that van Gaal side possibly being Sammer's role being similar to Rijkaard's. When I said "Dutch-style" I was thinking about an entire school of thought, not a single team in the 90s.

It's interesting I would be "more exposed" as a result of having two wingers that actually do defensive work, leaving the CMs to protect the defence centrally instead of running down the wings providing cover.

I actually thought that anto would play something similar to van gaal's ajax where sammer would be in rijkaard role but I think he has been a bit too adventurous with his team which might cost him in the end. The midfield battle will be tough as I can see both sides just kicking the shit out of each other and the game will be more end to end I think.

Although anto has a better outlet in the form of his wingers, I think VJ defense is better and he has sorted the creativity issue as well. Went for him but it was close.

I know, thats where the only conversation started from as I felt you would do something like that instead of going for your current formation.

Yup, Balu mentioned that as well.

Well when one of the midfielder dropped deep to cover, litamen would take his place in midfield keeping the system intact. The wingers provided an out ball which is useful as then you can move the ball quickly out of defense hence being less exposed. All theoretical though as you arent playing that system.

 

[antohan]

Defensive left side of Anto worries me here,especially with the way he had set up his team and once he lose the possession, viva can counter attack.
Also not sure with his penetration pass, when the space become compact for anto to find the right pass to Baggio or Vieri.

If Nedved, Effenberg and Neeskens can't provide the right pass you may as well give up and go home.

No defence can stay compact against Boniek alone, let alone against Neeskens running the show in midfield and surrounded by intelligent players with great movement and one-touch passsing.

 

[MJJ]

• crappycraperson-2
• Raees-2
• Paolo Di Canio
• Thisistheone
• Edgar Allan Pillow
• Theon-2
• BobbyManc
• |Neo|x
• MTR
• Speak
• Joga Bonito-2

Total Votes=15.

• devilish
• Jayvin-2
• sajeev
• MJJ
• Mibabalou
• Balu
• Revan
• Isotope
• Chesterlestreet-2
• Kazi
• rpitroda
• PedroMendez
• harms-2

Total votes=16

What's the score here?

Anto winning by one by my count.

 

[antohan]

Agreed. That's where I see Thiago Silva getting under-rated - he's more mobile and slicker on the ball than many of the big-hitters of the 1980s and 1990s.

Barca fans have been as desperate to have him as we have been about Ronaldo coming back. He is perfect in that setup. Annd, going back to Balu's comment, he is absolutely right, when I wrote the comment on Ferrara being the best RCB in the draft I had two things in mind: 1. Thuram banned, 2. Puyol in Argentina. I would happily sport Puyol at RCB, not because he is an all-time great vote winner, because he simply would work and proved to be great in this sort of setup.

 

[antohan]

What's the score here?

Does it matter? Fence-sitter!

 

[antohan]

Well when one of the midfielder dropped deep to cover, litamen would take his place in midfield keeping the system intact. The wingers provided an out ball which is useful as then you can move the ball quickly out of defense hence being less exposed. All theoretical though as you arent playing that system.

Neeskens is dropping into midfield here, and instead of one man helping out and three remaining as passengers I have two dropping back and two remaining as passengers. All of them doing far more than Litmanen defensively.

I'm not in the least bit worried about the availability of my wingers on the counters: ball to Boniek, who was the fastest player I've seen (> Robben). It doesn't matter if he tracks Zanetti, the problem is how Zanetti goes about catching up with him. As opposed to Viva, I have Thiago, Sammer, Effenberg, Neeskens and Nedved all capable of playing that ball into space for Boniek to run onto on the break. Or for Baggio, seeing as Keane isn't a holding midfielder and is instructed to be box-to-box.

Boniek-Baggio-Vieri vs. Vierchowod-Kohler. Good luck with that...

 

[Gio]

Does it matter? Fence-sitter!

There's still plenty of time for either of you to come up with a tactical brainwave/fart.

 

[antohan]

There's still plenty of time for either of you to come up with a tactical brainwave/fart.

Not here, I'm playing what I consider to be my best team and the one that would win this game. I'm certainly not switching to the formation Joga suggested ().

My only interest was in experimenting with laying out the exact same tactics in a different more scan-voter-friendly way showing Sammer in between Abidal and Thiago, as he would be in a defensive phase. Too late to start experimenting that now. In all probability I would be told I have a less hard-working midfield out of Sammer's influence there and Nedved/Boniek being ignored.

 

[Gio]

• Abidal and Ferrara are natural in this set-up. Concern obviously whether Abidal especially has the requisite quality to deal with Rummenigge.
• VJ's gritty Chelsea/Inter-esque midfield lends itself to a back-to-goal target man, rather than interplay specialists like Romario and to a lesser extent Enzo.
• If Sammer-Neeskens-Baggio are all dropping back, then that surely calls for Veron on the park in place of Seedorf to break down Anto's defence if it does become a back four. Veron would have plenty of freedom to create where Baggio is the nearest player to him.
• Boniek would trouble Reuter - if not for pace as they were both rapid, but in overloading the centre.

 

[The Red Viper]

I didn't say earlier because I was still in the competition but the fact that Viva never went for a sweeper and shift to a 5-3-2 formation has surprised me. In a five at the back formation, he could have let Keane and Breitner lose, knowing there are five at the back to defend and that front three would have troubled any defence with that set-up. The sweeper would have sorted his issue of not having someone deep in his half to initiate the attacks/counter-attacks. I rate Seedorf but he seems a bit pointless in this set-up. He was never really a main-creator or someone who would stamp his authority on games. He is an extremely effective support player to have, in terms of making runs into the box and good build-up play but in a midfield unit which has Keane and Breitner, he seems a bit pointless. Someone, with a bit more creativity and passing range would have been better. I can't imagine how scary good Viva would have been with a Hierro/Sammer/Scirea in that team.

I am still not sure who to vote for but I'm tilting towards Antohan here. The idea to shift Boniek to the left flank is an extremely shrewd move. Reuter is a wing-back and he would overlap naturally. So, I expect space to be created in that zone and while Vierchowod was pacy, he would be having his hands full with Bobo and Baggio. If, he goes on to attack the ball, it will leave one of Bobo/Baggio free and they will duly oblige and if he doesn't, he is inviting Boniek to run at his defence with so many bodies in Baggio, Bobo, Nedved, Neeskens etc in and around the box. Still interested to hear Viva's thoughts on how he plans to restrict that influence of Boniek before I vote here.

And oh, no matter how much Antohan sells Abidal, Kalle and Breitner are annihilating him on that flank.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

12-14

VivaJanuzaj - 15
.
crappycraperson
Raees
Theon
Joga Bonito
.
Paolo Di Canio
Thisistheone
Edgar Allan Pillow
BobbyManc
|Neo|x
MTR
Speak


antohan - 17
.
Jayvin
Chesterlestreet
harms
.
devilish
sajeev
MJJ
Mibabalou
Balu
Revan
Isotope
Kazi
rpitroda
PedroMendez
quackattack

anto leads by 2 votes. Still many managers yet to vote.

 

[antohan]

• Abidal and Ferrara are natural in this set-up. Concern obviously whether Abidal especially has the requisite quality to deal with Rummenigge.
• VJ's gritty Chelsea/Inter-esque midfield lends itself to a back-to-goal target man, rather than interplay specialists like Romario and to a lesser extent Enzo.
• If Sammer-Neeskens-Baggio are all dropping back, then that surely calls for Veron on the park in place of Seedorf to break down Anto's defence if it does become a back four. Veron would have plenty of freedom to create where Baggio is the nearest player to him.
• Boniek would trouble Reuter - if not for pace as they were both rapid, but in overloading the centre.

I sense a classic Gio change of mind due to last minute switches Bear in mind we are already deep into the second half. I won't be around at the end anyway (we started later than I had agreed to) so any reply won't be forthcoming.

BTW, it isn't Boniek vs. Reuter. I specifically mentioned Boniek would stay on whichever side Zanetti was 1. to exploit the pace differential on the counter, 2. to have the more creative Nedved taking advantage of the defensively weakest fullback, whether that was Reuter or Alaba.

 

[antohan]

I didn't say earlier because I was still in the competition but the fact that Viva never went for a sweeper and shift to a 5-3-2 formation has surprised me. In a five at the back formation, he could have let Keane and Breitner lose, knowing there are five at the back to defend and that front three would have troubled any defence with that set-up. The sweeper would have sorted his issue of not having someone deep in his half to initiate the attacks/counter-attacks. I rate Seedorf but he seems a bit pointless in this set-up. He was never really a main-creator or someone who would stamp his authority on games. He is an extremely effective support player to have, in terms of making runs into the box and good build-up play but in a midfield unit which has Keane and Breitner, he seems a bit pointless. Someone, with a bit more creativity and passing range would have been better. I can't imagine how scary good Viva would have been with a Hierro/Sammer/Scirea in that team.

I know! And I wanted Sammer myself so kept psyching him up about how good I would be with Romario and how unfair it was he picked first. I love Romario, but it was an unfair situation because it meant Viva having first dibs on Sammer, not him. Ruud would be having as good a game here, although the sort of player he needs is playing for me, in the surprisingly agile brickwall shape of Christian Vieri.

 

[Gio]

I sense a classic Gio change of mind due to last minute switches Bear in mind we are already deep into the second half.

Don't worry son, I'm scoring it 1-1 after 75 minutes here. One for Rummenigge and one for Boniek.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I know! And I wanted Sammer myself so kept psyching him up about how good I would be with Romario and how unfair it was he picked first. I love Romario, but it was an unfair situation because it meant Viva having first dibs on Sammer, not him. Ruud would be having as good a game here, although the sort of player he needs is playing for me, in the surprisingly agile brickwall shape of Christian Vieri.

Don't flatter yourself too much mate, I had like 4-5 other managers urging me to take Romario. I do admit my initial wishes was to take Sammer for Seedorf and play Keane as LCM, but the huge underrating RvN got in the semis and QF got me to take Romario. Moreover, I think Romario would've been unstoppable in your team with that support(Baggio Nedved Neeskens and Boniek). No matter how good my defense was you would've won it imo.

 

[antohan]

Don't worry son, I'm scoring it 1-1 after 75 minutes here. One for Rummenigge and one for Boniek.

A Boniek counter goal? I know how mouthwatering my counter is with him, Baggio and Vieri running into oceans of space with only Kohler and Vierchowod to beat... but surely you expect another one or two from the 60-70% of the time I have my midfield five of NEDVED-SAMMER-NEESKENS-EFFENBERG and BONIEK passing, probing and finding my front two of BAGGIO-VIERI? However much hard work there is in that midfield trio of box-to-boxers, they can't live with that.

 

[antohan]

Don't flatter yourself too much mate, I had like 4-5 other managers urging me to take Romario. I do admit my initial wishes was to take Sammer for Seedorf and play Keane as LCM, but the huge underrating RvN got in the semis and QF got me to take Romario. Moreover, I think Romario would've been unstoppable in your team with that support(Baggio Nedved Neeskens and Boniek). No matter how good my defense was you would've won it imo.

TBH, had you got Sammer I would have felt so deflated... I had no idea who I would pick then, probably Davids in a boring 4-2-3-1 with Hierro at the back. Never Romario, I don't need him, I like my strike pair as it is and it's far more compatible and well-rounded than Baggio-Romario. It's actually amazing that Romario is getting all the press and Baggio is completely overlooked here.

I know others goaded you as well, but I did facilitate the goading by having a fake mini-meltdown. I also knew after your semi you would be paranoid about him, but still was kind enough to hint at what I thought you should have done about him then (only for you to assume I was being critical). Same thing I'm doing here, high line, you just have to have the bollocks to put up with all the people screaming in a panic as if no one had ever played a high line to good effect. It was even more important in your game as you lacked (like here) the creativity in midfield so compressing the pitch and taking the midfield battle closer to his five-man defence should have worked in your favour.

 

[The Red Viper]

I sense a classic Gio change of mind due to last minute switches Bear in mind we are already deep into the second half. I won't be around at the end anyway (we started later than I had agreed to) so any reply won't be forthcoming.

BTW, it isn't Boniek vs. Reuter. I specifically mentioned Boniek would stay on whichever side Zanetti was 1. to exploit the pace differential on the counter, 2. to have the more creative Nedved taking advantage of the defensively weakest fullback, whether that was Reuter or Alaba.

So, that would mean Boniek plays on the right and Nedved on the left?

 

[antohan]

So, that would mean Boniek plays on the right and Nedved on the left?

Indeed.

I positioned them that way because I thought it made far more sense for VivaJ to play Zanetti right (his best flank) to deal with Nedved (the most creative yet most open to "having a man on him", putting a man on Boniek is just spastic). That was the only question mark for me in his lineup and I pointed out from the outset Nedved would be onto Reuter/Alaba (whichever was on the pitch.

As it turns out he persevered with Zanetti the left back, which is even better AFAIC because he will have far more trouble when going forward and I prefer Boniek charging down the right wing on the counter. In that caase it would be Baggio-Vieri-Boniek advancing on Kohler-Vierchowod instead of Boniek-Vieri-Baggio.

 

[The Red Viper]

Don't you think Boniek would do much better against Reuter than Zanetti? Zanetti was a master at timing his runs and had good positional sense. Reuter wasn't exactly poor positioning wise either but compared to Zanetti, he was more aggressive with his runs. So, if we compare both of them, the one who would be leaving behind more space is Reuter and I think Boniek is the perfect candidate to exploit that.

 

[Mani]

Sorry viva,voted in favor of anto.Amount of hard work done by both managers are immense.
I don't see much of weakness in either team,but i have to give to anto especially to the knowledge he posses and the way he plays these games. Well done mate.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Sorry viva,voted in favor of anto.Amount of hard work done by both managers are immense.
I don't see much of weakness in either team,but i have to give to anto especially to the knowledge he posses and the way he plays these games. Well done mate.

Fair enough, if you can't seperate the teams level wise, anto does deserve the vote for putting more effort into it and having much more knowledge

 

[antohan]

Don't you think Boniek would do much better against Reuter than Zanetti? Zanetti was a master at timing his runs and had good positional sense. Reuter wasn't exactly poor positioning wise either but compared to Zanetti, he was more aggressive with his runs. So, if we compare both of them, the one who would be leaving behind more space is Reuter and I think Boniek is the perfect candidate to exploit that.

Boniek can exploit both. Firstly, this isn't peak Zanetti, it's leftback Zanetti. Boniek will leave him dead on his tracks however well he tries to time his runs.

Of course, it is fair to say Reuter would be more exposed more often but the decision is largely about Nedved doing the most damage in the 60-70% of the time I'm not countering but enjoying extended periods of possession.

You can say it is the wrong decision because everyone here seems to equate counter runs to goals and ignores much of the real magic and joy in football revolves around players like Nedved unlocking a defence. If the last couple of games are anything to go by, he is just an average joe on the wing, but that's not the player I knew and I will stick to playing him how I think I should.

 

[antohan]

Fair enough, if you can't seperate the teams level wise, anto does deserve the vote for putting more effort into it and having much more knowledge

I wouldn't put it that way VivaJ, and don't let it knock you. I just try to replicate the players they were and provide them with the right environment to shine. I think I have accomplished that and I'm pretty chuffed with this side, more so than the all-time winning one which I was never entirely happy with.

It ultimately goes down to me being an older git and having watched far more of these players in the flesh, week in week out, throughout the 80s and 90s. I will always have an edge there, but it has nothing to do with you. In fact, I typically like your choice of players and I love every single one you picked.

The only clear mistake you have made is you've blissfully overlooked the need for a playmaker despite several people (not just your rival managers of the time) highlighting it as a real problem. It isn't good enough to have four great defenders, three combative midfielders and three great forwards, you need a flow, something that makes it all fall into place nicely and "work".

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I wouldn't put it that way VivaJ, and don't let it knock you. I just try to replicate the players they were and provide them with the right environment to shine. I think I have accomplished that and I'm pretty chuffed with this side, more so than the all-time winning one which I was never entirely happy with.

It ultimately goes down to me being an older git and having watched far more of these players in the flesh, week in week out, throughout the 80s and 90s. I will always have an edge there, but it has nothing to do with you. In fact, I typically like your choice of players and I love every single one you picked.

The only clear mistake you have made is you've blissfully overlooked the need for a playmaker despite several people (not just your rival managers of the time) highlighting it as a real problem. It isn't good enough to have four great defenders, three combative midfielders and three great forwards, you need a flow, something that makes it all fall into place nicely and "work".

Yeah no there were no hard feelings about that post, I really do think you've put a great team and I was really careful trying not saying anything bad about it although I really do believe I'll still win.

The idea behind not taking Sammer is the true faith of wanting to try out this vision of this midfield, I don't regret it and I'll still be eager to see how this thing might work out in reality. Anyway this has been quite fun and you played really well here mate

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Interesting how Baggio - for me a truly great player - seems to have slipped a bit below the radar here. I usually have a problem with him being played in roles which for whatever reason don't suit him - or at least don't suit him perfectly. In anto's set-up, however, he's precisely where he needs to be to do the most damage - as a striker with considerable freedom. Bobo's beastly physique and threatening presence in the air will keep one out of K and V very busy at all times - which is ideal for Baggio, who will (as I interpret it) operate in a hard-to-nail-down (for a defender) second striker role of sorts.

 

[PedroMendez]

Viva, you have no reason to be discouraged. You are in the final and you are only few votes behind antoh, while he pulled every dirty trick to allure the voters. What should other managers say, who lost in the previous rounds. Sometimes these discussions just heat up and shots are fired. Dont take it personal.

I think thats Antohan´s best lineup in this draft and the first time that everything falls perfectly into place. His offence is incredible attuned with great synergy. Everyone adds something slightly different with the perfect balance between them.
Actually thats one of my favourite teams in all drafts that I watched in this forum.