The ears on Hierro...
Chilavert was always a bit podgy, in fairness.The Reality Draft - QF: antohan vs BorisDeLeFora
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Chilavert was always a bit podgy, in fairness.Not in fantasy draft games, don't complicate the game with reality in, you know, a reality draft.
Feck it.
Batistuta will play right up on top of Silva, here I think he completely dominates him physically. Klinsmann will work off him and look to latch onto flick ons in behind. I'm hoping not necessarily his pace but also his anticipation and positioning will allow him to get his fair share of ball in behind that defence. Donadoni will rotate between flanks depending on where he is getting an advantage. My full backs will be tracked by his wingers which allows Robson to back the play up and still have two men deep protecting the defence
Yes this leaves space on the flanks for Nedved and Boniek to counter attack but I will have five players in positions to try and contain them.
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Batistuta will play right up on top of Silva, here I think he completely dominates him physically. Klinsmann will work off him and look to latch onto flick ons in behind. I'm hoping not necessarily his pace but also his anticipation and positioning will allow him to get his fair share of ball in behind that defence. Donadoni will rotate between flanks depending on where he is getting an advantage. My full backs will be tracked by his wingers which allows Robson to back the play up and still have two men deep protecting the defence
Yes this leaves space on the flanks for Nedved and Boniek to counter attack but I will have five players in positions to try and contain them.
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Just look it up...why are you playing Donadoni as AM when you have Del Piero on the bench? 4-3-1-2 would be your optimim formation, imo!
......................Batigol........................
............Del Piero......Koke.................
....Robson.....Cerezo......Tigana...........
Cole...Popescu...Kohler....Zambrotta
Koke can give you the same wide that Donadoni gives...from a far more attacking position. Del Piero adds a bunch of creativity and your overall strike threat with these 3 is far more than with Klinsmann in there.
............Del Piero......Koke.................
....Robson.....Cerezo......Tigana...........
Cole...Popescu...Kohler....Zambrotta
Koke can give you the same wide that Donadoni gives...from a far more attacking position. Del Piero adds a bunch of creativity and your overall strike threat with these 3 is far more than with Klinsmann in there.
Not sold at all on Hierro and Effenberg playing those roles, both of them are completely handcuffed by this tactic as they had so much to give if they had the license to attack as they wanted to(which was constantly). Anyhow, Boris is practically defaulting this match with his non existent tactically write up so I will give it to Anto.
Restricting Hierro in particular, one of the highest goalscoring central midfielders in history(in terms of goals in one season) to not push forward is like telling Lampard or Ballack that they aren't allowed to move forward at will.
Restricting Hierro in particular, one of the highest goalscoring central midfielders in history(in terms of goals in one season) to not push forward is like telling Lampard or Ballack that they aren't allowed to move forward at will.
I did think this was his best setup without considering my side specifically.
More so if he wanted to avoid a 4-4-2 diamond, which is what he is playing now, so I guess we are both even as far as bonus votes/penalty is concerned.
I'm not handcuffing them, I'm asking them to do what the side most needs them to do, but pounce on any opportunities presented. Essentially, not to be gung-ho and understand the attack is in good hands, but surely mix it up a bit every now and then.
From my write-up:
Effenberg and Hierro calmly control the game from midfield when needed with their excellent passing, offering a "fallback and redistribute play" option and occasionally (never jointly) making runs that wil wreak havoc as both were excellent from long range.
Amazing team Anto has assembled.
By changing to 4-4-2 diamond, @BorisDeLeFora has forfeited his A2 - Advantage votes.
Both managers are at par having lost their advatage votes.
Both managers are at par having lost their advatage votes.
I read it. It is why I made the comment. Hierro wasn't a defensively great defensive midfielder who would sit deep and control the midfield usually he'd have a partner next to him who did that role(Often Milla) which allowed him to do what made him excel in the midfield - push forward and score a remarkable amount of goals. Hierro scored more goals in one season (26) than Ballack ever managed to do, even Scholes as an AM behind RVN scored less than Hierro's best season.
That is without considering the fact that Effenberg as well is best when allowed to roam forward and use his abilities in the offense too. Both of them were best when they had defensive cover - not when their defensive positioning was so crucial to keep that any time they leave it the team suffers.
I don't think Hierro's defensive abilities were even close to great in his defensive midfield role. He was very slow in general and when pressing, similar to Berbatov/Fellaini in his movement style while excelling when his own team had the ball.
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I refer you back to the earlier debate on seny and rauxa. With Luis Enrique, while I expect him to put in a shift, I absolutely would agree it's against his nature to stay conservative with so much going on upfront. Effenberg? Angry, passionate, yeah, but German. Hierro? Same shit. Being determined and having the right mentality doesn't mean they will let passion cloud their judgement. Reason (seny) comes first, and the reasonable thing is to play to your team's strength.
I admit that with Hierro I won't get a 26 goal-a-season midfielder as a result (he can still head from corners and will occasionally let fly from range, but my primary source of goals is elsewhere). What is a bit ridiculous though is to suggest he can't play this role to the high standards required, which doesn't include pressing, the only one with a clear pressing assignment is Götze because Cerezo is the outball in my eyes, not Popescu, he is in too much trouble with Vieri around to playmake with any sort of composure.
We are getting this "used to have a type X player next to him" regularly now, and I don't buy it personally. The reason Spain played Milla next to him wasn't Hierro couldn't do the same, it was that Hierro was just much better at many other things. Same goes for Effenberg, it's not he can't defend but a man of his considerable talent is better used in an augmented role, so you play Jens Jeremies to do the heavylifting. The difference is Bayern had the likes of Carsten Jancker and what not going forward (*they had some pretty good players in fairness), I have Baggio, Nedved, Boniek, Götze, Vieri... I also have the majority of possession. It follows the side won't be reliant in him bursting forward but keeping things tidy and ticking, while having the freedom to burst forward if clear opportunities for it arise. When they do, it will be like being struck by lightning for a defence and midfield that is already with its hands full.
Loving it mate, hadn't joined one of these in a while, but it's good to be back with a side I would love to watch in action
To think I was originally aiming at a 3-5-2 with wingbacks... then I saw Nedved and Baggio would be available as reinforcements and thought "feck that shit"
I think the point Annah was making is that they can defend, but not the type of DM's you would want covering a 3 man defence (without wingbacks). Good for you that Boris is not playing his best attack, but if he played Koke and DelP, then your DM's may get caught out of position far more to be comfortable.
Yup. I was after these 2 for my team earlier in the draft too. Absolutely amazing you were able to get hands on both in reinforcment picks!To think I was originally aiming at a 3-5-2 with wingbacks... then I saw Nedved and Baggio would be available as reinforcements and thought "feck that shit"
Yes, I get the point in them not being Gattuso types that will dominate vast swathes of the pitch defensively. But, again, I'm playing a high defensive line, Koke and Del Piero would be squeezed between those lines, there's not much room for them to get caught out of position. It's on that premise of having the right defensive trio to defend high up that I didn't pick any monster DMs, I picked these two to dominate games, have most possession, and for their ability on the ball. For the most part attacks against me are long ball hit and run affairs trying to bypass the midfield, I have no real use for a Gattuso without posession and I certainly would rather have a Hierro the ~70% of the time I actually have the ball.
I like Koke, but really he's miles away from the relentless wingmanship Donadoni offered at his peak. I see Donadoni's indicative AM role as reminiscent of Nedved for Juventus. Nedved was the nominal attacking midfielder and often started central but was usually most influential when roaming wide.
My pojnt being, Boris needs to stretch anto's defence and here Koke's movement will be much more valuable than Donadoni's right midfield role. And in the AM position Koke+Del Piero can have more influence in the game than a out wide Donadoni. He already has 3 solid midfielders and what he lacks is the transtion to attack. With the attack anto has fielded, if he is expecting Robson/Tigana to shuttle all the time, it would be counterproductive and that leaves Donadoni to do the bridgework from out wide. One on One there is no comparison between Donadoni and Koke, but within this team, the difference in style will have a huge impact, imo.
TBH, I don't think Boris changed how he is playing much, just docked the two advantage votes really. Donadoni was always going to be swapping sides on th epitch, if not on the stated tactics.
I'd agree with Gio Donadoni is more worrying than Koke, but it is fair to say he would be more of a pain for me when I have the ball.
Which is most of the times. Enough of Donadoni, Koke and Hierro. The action is really elsewhere: Nedved dominating his flank, Boniek destroying Cole and leaving Kohler in two minds while facing Baggio and Götze linking up... And Vieri just bullying Popescu, highest goalscorer of headed goals in Serie A history, and there will be plenty of crosses with that service.
@antohan How did u make that formation graphic its awesome ?
Sorry lads, busy week, really haven't had the time to commit fully to this.
I switched to a diamond to kill that vote thing, although it's not necessarily a diamond as Donadoni will be switching from flank to flank as others have said, to attack where space would be. Thus he is there ahead of del Piero and Koke.
Again, it's way too easy to just state that X is going to destroy Y, you see bad players in bad teams containing good players when part of a good system, and these are good players. Boniek does not destroy Cole all the time because he is not facing just Cole, he will almost always have support from a midfielder. Yes this inhibits Robson and Tigana slightly but there will be times when my players get on the ball and can push up.
As I've said, none is going around the outside, to I can get 2 vs 1 situations against the man on the ball. I would imagine so that Gotze in particular would try to drift out to give support, which would free up Cerezo to support the centre backs and make it 3 v 2 in there. Yes crosses would still come in but Vieri may not be as dominant with extra bodies around him. Also, Vieri is not always going to be in an aerial duel with Popescu, he may win some balls against him, sure, but i won't be during every single attack, plus he'll have support from Cech who was decent off his line.
I switched to a diamond to kill that vote thing, although it's not necessarily a diamond as Donadoni will be switching from flank to flank as others have said, to attack where space would be. Thus he is there ahead of del Piero and Koke.
Again, it's way too easy to just state that X is going to destroy Y, you see bad players in bad teams containing good players when part of a good system, and these are good players. Boniek does not destroy Cole all the time because he is not facing just Cole, he will almost always have support from a midfielder. Yes this inhibits Robson and Tigana slightly but there will be times when my players get on the ball and can push up.
As I've said, none is going around the outside, to I can get 2 vs 1 situations against the man on the ball. I would imagine so that Gotze in particular would try to drift out to give support, which would free up Cerezo to support the centre backs and make it 3 v 2 in there. Yes crosses would still come in but Vieri may not be as dominant with extra bodies around him. Also, Vieri is not always going to be in an aerial duel with Popescu, he may win some balls against him, sure, but i won't be during every single attack, plus he'll have support from Cech who was decent off his line.
Haven't read this properly but I'm shocked del Piero isn't playing. I'm also surprised Boris isn't playing a 4-3-3 which was the best fit for his players IMO, with Del Piero playing in that inside left role he often took up at Juve. I think he would have complimented and suited playing off Batistuta with Donadoni giving more natural width on the right.
Nice write up from antohan, not much wrong with his team which looks threatening going forward. I agree with Gio's comments on Gotze though and I don't think he'll do much to worry Cerezo on the ball.
Nice write up from antohan, not much wrong with his team which looks threatening going forward. I agree with Gio's comments on Gotze though and I don't think he'll do much to worry Cerezo on the ball.
I went to this football t-shirt making website and nicked all the designs off their shirts. Even asked them to make one for Ciro (they had Stevie and Freddie and not him, scandalous) and you will see it is the latest addition to their database. I guess it is only fair I do some marketing for them in exchange for them being my design bitches
Then stuck them on a green pitch on PPT. The difficulty was sizing the slide so that once saves as png and uploaded it roughly had the same size as a sharemytactics teamsheet.
I figured as much. It's clearer in terms of Donadoni's role though and probably fairer in terms of this bonus point thing. It's not what you would typically refer to as a diamond, but clearly a 4-3-1-2!
Both Boniek and Nedved are happy to draw that extra man, if the extra man actually gets there in time at all. THat's the point of pummeling your backline, you lose your midfield in the process.
You wish, Götze offers himself as an option, if you don't have Cerezo on him then he receives, turns towards the backline and Cerezo needs to come out to try dispossess him anyway. That's even better for me AFAIC, but that's not the way Cerezo would play though, he wouldn't drop into a three but stay on his man.
Italian defences usually have a lot of men and extra bodies around, and keepers were excellent, yet Vieri still managed a goal a game at his peak. Go figure.
You are completely ignoring Baggio BTW, which is quite funny. I know Kohler has that personal detail but if Robbo ever got to arrive in Cole's support it isn't Götze but Baggio you should be worried about. Baggio makes himself available for Boniek, Boniek to Baggio, cutback to an onrushing Hierro or centrally to Götze... Where is Kohler? With Baggio? Closing down Hierro? Or Göotze? Or stranded?
There's too much going on and too many geniuses around for that defence to hold. I don't destroy them because they are poor, I destroy them because they are a level below and no amount of organising and intended discipline is going to shut these players out.
I guess we'll have to disagree on it. Cerezo was used to being afforded far more time and space on the ball than Götze would allow him.
In any case, I already mentioned once I run up a good lead Lucho comes on in the second half. Will lose a fair bit in terms of creation and posession in favour of more directness, probably not much in goalscoring threat (Lucho isn't the sort you want arriving late in the box!) and will gain more defensive grit to start closing out the game.
Then around the 70th minute switch to 4-4-1-1 and play the game out.
Great formation picture, @antohan .
@BorisDeLeFora , Don't you think you would have been better off starting AdP than Klinsi? Klinsi was a very good striker but what can he offer than Batigol won't? Considering the way Antohan has set-up, you should have gone for a three man attack with Batigol leading the line. AdP playing off him in a leftish role like he did with Juve in the nineties and Donadoni on the right wing. This way, in Donadoni you would have had a player who could stretch that three man backline of Antohan and put in crosses for Batigol. Del Piero would have given you some creativity, flair and more importantly a threat between the lines which you are missing out on currently. Add the late attacking runs into the box by Robson and Tigana, you could have caused Anto more trouble than you would do with this formation. The current formation is still good. Its just that, leaving crazy work-rate aside, there is nothing Klinsi would add which Batigol wouldn't provide.
@BorisDeLeFora , Don't you think you would have been better off starting AdP than Klinsi? Klinsi was a very good striker but what can he offer than Batigol won't? Considering the way Antohan has set-up, you should have gone for a three man attack with Batigol leading the line. AdP playing off him in a leftish role like he did with Juve in the nineties and Donadoni on the right wing. This way, in Donadoni you would have had a player who could stretch that three man backline of Antohan and put in crosses for Batigol. Del Piero would have given you some creativity, flair and more importantly a threat between the lines which you are missing out on currently. Add the late attacking runs into the box by Robson and Tigana, you could have caused Anto more trouble than you would do with this formation. The current formation is still good. Its just that, leaving crazy work-rate aside, there is nothing Klinsi would add which Batigol wouldn't provide.
Something like this:-
----------------------Batigol----------------------
-------Del Piero--------------------------Donadoni
------------Robson-------------Tigana------------
-----------------------Cerezo---------------------
----------------------Batigol----------------------
-------Del Piero--------------------------Donadoni
------------Robson-------------Tigana------------
-----------------------Cerezo---------------------
Seconded, leaving out Del Piero is a huge mistake imo and I don't quite see how Klinsmann is essential to his current set-up either. Heck I would rather play Del Piero slightly behind Batigol in his current set-up as well.
As we enter the second half, there's a substitution for Team Antohan who have run up a 3-1 lead (15-5).
Götze has left the pitch having justified his inclusion with some mouthwatering link-up play and a goal to boot.
On comes Luis Enrique to take on that central role. Nedved already has his flank sussed, no point tinkering there and his playmaking from the left flank has been glorious. Instead, given the scoreline, some creativity is sacrificed in favour of a bit more bite and grit in the middle of the park to continue shutting out Cerezo, the key playmaker for Team Boris.
Lucho also is a tremendous header of the ball and prolific midfielder with a 1 in 2 record at his peak, a 1 in 2 career record in Europe and 1 in 3 overall. We will see Baggio dropping deep more often now, and Lucho storming into the box for the through ball behind Kohler. Where will Kohler be? Sitting deep? Who stops Baggio shooting then? Chasing or closing down Baggio? Who's tracking Lucho then? Bypassed? Possibly, we'll see. It's Kohler, I know, but the movement and flair in that frontline remains mind-boggling even for the best defenders.
@Edgar Allan Pillow
Götze has left the pitch having justified his inclusion with some mouthwatering link-up play and a goal to boot.
On comes Luis Enrique to take on that central role. Nedved already has his flank sussed, no point tinkering there and his playmaking from the left flank has been glorious. Instead, given the scoreline, some creativity is sacrificed in favour of a bit more bite and grit in the middle of the park to continue shutting out Cerezo, the key playmaker for Team Boris.
Lucho also is a tremendous header of the ball and prolific midfielder with a 1 in 2 record at his peak, a 1 in 2 career record in Europe and 1 in 3 overall. We will see Baggio dropping deep more often now, and Lucho storming into the box for the through ball behind Kohler. Where will Kohler be? Sitting deep? Who stops Baggio shooting then? Chasing or closing down Baggio? Who's tracking Lucho then? Bypassed? Possibly, we'll see. It's Kohler, I know, but the movement and flair in that frontline remains mind-boggling even for the best defenders.
@Edgar Allan Pillow
His lineup is obviously very offensive, but the defence can handle this situations. Hierro is also getting slightly misjudged. Just because he had a awesome goalscoring record in parts of his carrer, doesnt mean that he cannot excel in this role. Most of his goals were pens or freekicks. He wasnt like lampard or ballack at all and I think this role would suit him perfectly.
I think his team has other issues.
I still like it and the individual quality makes up for some things, but there are issues with playing boniek, baggio, götze and nedved. Boniek is not the typical winger who provides width, but much more a flexible inside forward who starts wide and operates in serveral different areas. So he definitely operates in wide areas but excels when he is allowed to make central runs in the box. Baggio actually ticks similar boxes even so he starts far more centrally. Nedved never was a classic winger. He drifted in wide postpositions, but often started far more centrally. Götze is very flexible and can operate in different areas, but naturally he wants to play in central offensive areas between the lines.
The intelligence, flexibility and individual class makes up for some of these problems, but Antohan´s player have to be careful not to trip over each other, while nobody is in wide areas. I think his team would be better if he would replace Boniek or Baggio with a winger, who favors wide areas; that said there are few players who have the quality to make this change worthwhile.
Fair enough. I do prefer Boniek given the freedom to roam across the frontline but we can't afford that here defensively. I did consider playing him centrally now, when making the substitution, and get Luis Enrique or even Ljungberg on the right. The issue though is I need to be pressing/isolating Cerezo (the only reasonably creative player in his side) as soon as I lose the ball, and I can't realistically expect Boniek to be doing that when he may not be anywhere near him. A free role must truly be a free role.
I'd agree Baggio is probably more influential/expansive now when able to swap positions with Lucho.
Nedved wasn't a classic winger indeed, but he could run a game from out wide, which is what I was looking for him to provide here. He was awesome doing that and, while not a "classic winger" I'd argue he played at his best level somewhere in between that and an inside forward position, not really as a central player. It's a matter of personal preference, of course, but I had the option to play him centrally now as well and wouldn't contemplate it because I simply prefer him where he is.
Some very good observations there though.
Wait, what? @Isotope of all people voted against me? WTF? We've spent years telling him to stop picking five #10s in his sides and he prefers a brainless side whose fortunes rest squarely on the performance of a single winger?
@antohan fine! still not a fan of your formation, though. And you're gonna win this anyway.
fine! still not a fan of your formation, though. And you're gonna win this anyway.Substitution made and formation changed for antohan.
Tough, very evenly matched... I'd go with Antohan because baggio and Vierri, and Baggio in his prime was something else. Although Donadoni with Batitstuta and Klinsmann was also deadly.
Tough, preference plays here Vierri and Baggio
Tough, preference plays here
Vierri and BaggioDrop Klinsmann - play Del Piero in a leftish role and Donadoni on the right, pure and simple (his best role and one which leaves no question marks whatsoever.)
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Err... I feel dirty now. I didn't mean for you to switch the vote, was just baffled really.@antohan
TBH, I've got absolutely no idea what he got Batistuta for. Klinsmann is getting underrated here, I was more concerned about him than Omar going into this.
I actually thought he would play Del Piero behind the striker and Donadoni working the wings as well, that may have forced my hand to switch to a more safety first approach earlier in the game than I wanted to.
Lucho looks a bit like a young Rooney there, by the way. That could be fatal, anto - least popular man on the Caf, you know.