The Reality Draft - QF: Theon/MJJ vs harms

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

........................................ Team @Theon / @MJJ ................................................................................ Team @harms ..........................................


TEAM Theon / MJJ


FORMATION

A classic 4-2-2-2 system also known as a Brazilian magic square.

Previously used by Madrid, Juventus and currently by Pelligrini at City, the formation is best known as the regular system of the Brazilian National Team winning the World Cup in '94, reaching the Final in '98 and most famously captivating the imagination with breathtaking football in '82.

To be most successfully implemented the Magic Square requires intelligent movement to exploit the gaps out wide when the opposition try and defend narrow, as was provided by Socrates and Eder for instance in '82.

In Elkjaer - voted 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the Ballon d'Or - Totti, Rivaldo and Cafu this side has players not only comfortable in such a role, but players with proven records of doing so at the highest level.

TACTICS
The system is set up to allow three of the most creative players on the pitch - Rivaldo, Bochini and Totti - to interchange, link up and create chances with quick decisive passing.

The football between these players - who are all on the same wavelength - will be wonderful to watch.


FOUR BRIEF POINTS

1. The introduction of Passarella - Widely considered one of the greatest footballers of all time, Argentina's imperious World Cup winning Captain combines complete defensive solidity with a calmness on the ball and sharp, precise distribution from the back. Fantastic in the air and utterly imposing in the tackle, Passarella will marshall the back line as the standout defender on the pitch.

2. Cafu stretching the pitch - Arguably the greatest attacking fullback of all time, there is no player better for this role than Cafu. Blessed with limitless stamina he is one of only a handful of footballers with the sheer physique to get up and down a flank in such a devastating way for 90 minutes.

At all levels this has been successful - Roma won Serie A, Milan won the Champions League and Brazil won the World Cup playing wingerless formations with Cafu providing the width.

3. Rivaldo Pulling Wide - Successful playing through the middle or on the left wing Rivaldo is well suited to this role, drifting out wide to utilise his exceptional dribbling ability and exploit any gaps, before attacking centrally to finish chances - a role he played in Brazil's 4-2-2-2 in 1998 and 3-5-2 in 2002.

A clinical goalscorer with an incredible 116 goals in four seasons - He will look to get in behind Kaltz and exploit any gaps that arise when the German moves forward to deliver his trademark crosses.

4. Sammer/Souness physicality in midfield - Fiercely competitive, physically imposing and excellent on the ball, they will look to break up attacks before recycling possession with sharp passing to the creative players in front. With Matthias Sammer deeper playing freely in front of the defence, Souness will press slightly higher and play the box to box role he excelled in with Liverpool, Captaining the side to three European Cups.


ONE NOT TO BE UNDERRATED - RICARDO BOCHINI

Exceptional player. A midfield maestro who could go on and score but mostly made others look formidable. Much (and I mean MUCH) better and more mobile than Riquelme, not too different from Maradona except in that he lacked that solo-run explosion. He had the vision and ability to create space, dribble his way out of trouble and play the perfect pass.

With five minutes of the 1986 World Cup semi-final remaining and Argentina leading Belgium 2-0, Ricardo Bochini came on for Jorge Burruchaga. As he trotted on, Maradona ran over and shook his hand. "Maestro," he said, "we've been waiting for you."

A great, technical footballer - Bochini is a typical #10 with wonderful passing, creativity and awareness of his teammates to read the game and slip in through balls. There are lots of match compliations on youtube over a good decade and Bochini is consistently impressive, transforming from a more explosive dribbler to a cultured #10.

Not the fastest player, but agile and deceptively quick on the turn, Bochini had flawless technique with the ability to drag and maneuver the ball away from his opponents before accelerating and gliding down the pitch. Some of his passing is genuinely wonderful, he'll often just flick it to a teammate without taking a first touch as if he knows what he's going to do before the ball even gets to him.

Most importantly Bochini's passing is progressive and incisive, not hitting 95% accuracy stats - the way a Xavi styled passer would - because his first thought is always offensive. Besides the odd flicked pass backwards to alleviate pressure, the majority of his passes are forward trying to create chances and move the team up the pitch.

The interplay between him and Totti will be absolutely fantastic to watch - even Rivaldo will take a back seat here. Two of the game's best passers feeding a devastating strike partnership up front, with Souness and Sammer recycling possession and controlling the game in behind. It's the perfect platform for Bochini and Totti to shine, which is sure to result in wonderful offensive football.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

TEAM harms


My defense.

Ruggeri and Förster are both capable of playing in center or covering for the fullback if needed. Förster is well known for his man-marking abilities – he successfully marked Ceulemans, Sanshez, Platini and did a decent job on Maradona in the second half of 86 final – considering that he was playing against probably the best player in the World Cup history. Ruggeri was the main man in his opponent’s defense that day – and only Maradona surpassed his contribution to their success.

Kaltz and Roberto Carlos are great defenders and Kaltz is very happy to see Förster by his side – the man with whom he won Euro 1980 and was runner-up in 1982 World Cup. Förster would be facing Rivaldo here and a proven partnership surely won’t hurt – though, I rate Rivaldo below Platini, for example, who was stopped by Karlheinz. Both my fullbacks are known for their attacking contribution, which they will surely be happy to provide.


My midfield

My midfield trio is unbelievable – pace, stamina, intelligence, passing, scoring, defending – they have it all.

Falcao will play the role of deep-lying playmaker – I don’t have anything to add specifically, we all know that he is one of the best players ever for this role.

Neeskens’s average heatmap looks like a Rothko painting. He will do what he does best – pure box-to-box role – running, scoring, assisting, pressing and tackling.

Bonhof has the most complex instruction – while in possession he will “do a Neeskens”, but he will be a man-marking DM in the defensive phase – the role that he did a lot for Borussia. Both are capable to attack from the center or from the flank, which will come handy.


My attack

Bergkamp, Blokhin, Krankl. All three possesses different qualities, pace and dribbling of Blokhin, vision and technical brilliance of Bergkamp, movement and scoring of Krankl – I genuinely love my attacking unit.

Krankl will play as the classic №9 – constantly keeping defenders busy by his movement and always ready to finish the combination or to score a deflection. He wasn’t a Sheareresque forward, he reminds me more of a Lewandowski, so it won’t be a problem for him to interchange if needed or to move out wide, but his main objective is still to be in the box and to score.

Blokhin is given a free role here – he will be roaming all across Theon’s defense to find the gaps to penetrate. He will also be contributing in the team pressing and defending, as he did under Lobanovsky – we had a discussion about it in the last game, so here’s the quote from Yuran, former Dynamo forward, about Lobanovsky’s approach: “No other coach ever demanded that I should chase opponents even back into my own penalty box”.

Bergkamp is the main creator here, as usual, nothing much to add here too. He is playing in his preferred position as a schaduwspits (shadow striker), as the press named it, equally capable of assisting Blokhin and Krankl or to score himself.


Tactics/approach

I love Lobanovsky’s philosophy – it’s all depends on the circumstances. That’s why my team is full of hardworking and versatile players – the only constant are my quick transactions. The main approach is simple - keep the preferred playing area as large as possible while in possession, and as small as possible while out. My midfield will overcrowd the central zone while defending, making it difficult to all Theon’s creative players, and will press them ruthlessly.


The Theon’s team oozes with flair and creativity but what it lucks, as I see, is versatility. Bochini is a true №10, I don’t particularly rate Totti out wide and think that he needs all of that central space for himself. The only one who is comfortable playing wide is Rivaldo, but we all know that he preferred more central position. And he lacks support from his fullback, who is clearly the weak spot here.


Nor Sounness or Sammer aren’t great at covering the flanks, imo – they were central players, outstanding at what they do. But magic rectangle is based on versatility, not only vertical, but horizontal too – and I don’t think that they can provide it.


Cafu is suited brilliantly for this formation, Rodriguez – not so much. He won’t dominate the flank on his own a-la Roberto Carlos, neither would he provide a playmaking from the deep a-la Junior – he is a good young defender without any real experience on a top level. And fullbacks are cricual for 4-2-2-2.


On the other hand I have Bonhof and Neeskens, for example – the former played on both flanks lots in his career, Neeskens is the very definition of versatility. Falcao is also capable, as he is the only midfielder here who actually played in that system, but I would expect him to stay more centrally though. Two fullbacks, who I think are among the best attacking fullbacks ever, supports them from the back and Blokhin is likely to cut inside from either of the flanks – my strength is exactly where Theon’s weakness is.


Another weak or, at least, questionable spot in Theon’s defense is Passarella. Fantastic player but I don’t think that he suits his team well – he has this desire to attack in him, and there is Rodriguez on the left, not some brilliant LB/LCB player. Matthaus would probably be asked to cover for him, but this would reduce his impact on the game. So Bergkamp and Blokhin will look into that.


PLAYER PROFILES

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Game On!

Good luck to both managers.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Cafu vs Carlos seem to be a recurring theme for this draft

 

[Theon]

'kinell, Harms has stuck the knife in there. Brutal write up

 

[Theon]

The Passarella point is complete nonsense which is proven by just briefly watching the games. Forget his ability on the ball, Passarella more than virtually any other libero was just a hard tackling, fantastic defender. Suggesting that Passarella's principle asset was going forward shows a lack of knowledge about how he played.

I wonder if Harms would say the same about Baresi for instance, who had a similar inclination to get on the ball to Passarella but likewise the same ability to play as a dominant defender - which is what the both were.

As I said in the draft thread, this at 11.10m is a typical example of what Passarella would do when he advanced forward


He receives it from the left back and shows some nice skill to get away from two players before playing a simple pass and looking for the return. When it doesn't come you can see him just jogging back into position. But really even this isn't too common, first and foremost he was just a fantastic, dominant defender - the playmaking was secondary.

 

[Theon]

I don't see how Harms can say the team is too centrally orientated and criticise a lack of width, and then go on to say criticise Totti being wasted out wide. Really, this makes no sense and is just overboard criticism for the sake of criticising.

In terms of Totti, before his injury in 2006 he would constantly roam across the front line in Roma's wingerless 3-5-2. He's absolutely comfortable playing this role and it is something he has done throughout his career.

Rivaldo has played this exact role in a 4-2-2-2 for Brazil, drifting wide from a central position. Even when Rivaldo plays as a second striker, his natural inclination is to pull out around the pitch because he's such a good dribbler - the best on the pitch in fact. So I don't think Harms is correct in trying to downplay Rivaldo's ability to play that way, when it's literally what he has done for most of his career.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think he just said he doesn't rate Totti out wide!

 

[harms]

@Theon voted for myself so see the score. Will answer you shortly

Good luck!

 

[Theon]

Righteo I'll be back later when Harms comes on - One quick point is that Bergkamp is comfortably the most creative player that Harms has in terms of providing the final pass or creative through ball and I can't think of a better player to limit his influence than Sammer.

Bergkamp is a fantastic passer and right up there with Totti and Bochini in that respect, but he does not have the raw pace or agility to get away from Sammer picking him up.

I won't be silly here, Bergkamp's good enough to play quick passes so he isn't going to be shut out of the game or anything, but the fact remains that he is extremely well covered by Sammer and I think his impact on the game will be far lower that it would be with a lesser player than Sammer picking him up.

To put it another way, I think Bergkamp is better restricted here than either Totti or Bochini. And Bergkamp is Harm's most creative player.

 

[harms]

About Passarella - the weak was the wrong word, that's why I used the word "questionable" later. It's not the question of his undeniable quality, it's the question of cover if he would suddenly appear out of position - and the probability of this is much higher than, to say, probability of McGrath/Ruggeri/Forster being caught higher up the pitch. And he has Sammer and Rodriguez covering for him, I don't rate Rodriguez as a cover here, so it would be Sammer (who is a brilliant cover, of course) - but this would mean that he wouldn't be given a free role which would lower his impact

 

[Theon]

@Theon voted for myself so see the score. Will answer you shortly

Good luck!

Good luck to you too buddy.

I'm off for a few hours now, need to pick up the wee one from nursery and get dinner sorted but I'll get back on later.

 

[harms]

I don't see how Harms can say the team is too centrally orientated and criticise a lack of width, and then go on to say criticise Totti being wasted out wide. Really, this makes no sense and is just overboard criticism for the sake of criticising.

In terms of Totti, before his injury in 2006 he would constantly roam across the front line in Roma's wingerless 3-5-2. He's absolutely comfortable playing this role and it is something he has done throughout his career.

Rivaldo has played this exact role in a 4-2-2-2 for Brazil, drifting wide from a central position. Even when Rivaldo plays as a second striker, his natural inclination is to pull out around the pitch because he's such a good dribbler - the best on the pitch in fact. So I don't think Harms is correct in trying to downplay Rivaldo's ability to play that way, when it's literally what he has done for most of his career.

What EAP said. Totti would be brilliant here if not for Bochini, who is less mobile and prefers central position for himself - so either Totti is on the right, where I don't rate him, or he would trying to find space in the "Bochini zone". Ask RVP how it feels when inferior players are running into your preferable positions)

Rivaldo is playing in his best role, but he doesn't offer much width tbf - or, at least, that is my viewing. He wasn't cutting from the corner flag, he played slightly from the left with the overlapping fullback (I'm thinking about their breathtaking partnership with R.Carlos here in particular).

 

[Theon]

About Passarella - the weak was the wrong word, that's why I used the word "questionable" later. It's not the question of his undeniable quality, it's the question of cover if he would suddenly appear out of position

Paul McGrath is covering for him as well who was a fantastic defender in his own right. He was also extremely mobile.

When Passarella won the World Cup in '78 his CB partner, Galvan, was an absolute nightmare positionally and not in the same league as McGrath yet Passarella was consistently fantastic and Argentina conceded just four goals all tournament.

You've mentioned Matthias Sammer - and I'm being serious here - but I can't think of a player more suited to hypothetically cover for Passarella in that role. And I say hypothetically because it doesn't happen that much, far less than you're implying. Really, the only player I can think of since the 50's would be Frank Rijkaard and he isn't even eligible for this draft. Sammer is perfect for Passarella there.

But to get back to the main point, this nonsense about getting caught out just does not happen anywhere near as frequently as you're suggesting it does. I compared Passarella to Baresi and IMO it's an apt view, both were great on the ball but both were primarily just wonderful centre backs.

 

[Theon]

Righteo chaps, before I go - I found this nice article on Elkjaer which some of you might be interested in.

It's from the excellent 4dfoot website and their 'Forgotten Footballers' series which has some great stuff worth browsing through - http://www.4dfoot.com/2011/10/19/forgotten-footballer-preben-elkjaer-larsen/


"Preben Elkjaer proved three things in his career: You don’t have to be short to be a sensational dribbler. You don’t have to be serious to be successful. And you don’t need shoes to score goals.

With his crazy dribbles, tank-like physique and clownish actions Preben Elkjaer was perhaps Europe’s most eye-catching player in the mid 80’s. He led both club and country to unprecedented success and finished twice on the podium of the Ballon d’Or. But how many football fans today are still familiar with Elkjaer?

Far too few. One place where they’ll never forget him though is the Italian city of Verona. It was there that Elkjaer achieved the greatest upset of not just his career, but the entire history of Italian football. In the 1984-85 season not the great Juventus, or AC Milan, or Inter, or Maradona´s Napoli, or even AS Roma managed to win the Scudetto. Instead, it was Elkjaer’s Hellas Verona. The Danish dribbler stole the show by scoring the iconic goal of that campaign against Platini´s Juventus. As he launched another solo, he lost his right boot, kept going, glided past another defender, and scored with his sock. The footage of this famous goal is included in the special video 4Dfoot created for this edition of Forgotten Footballer:

Elkjaer’s exploits changed Italian football. In the past, a single man had been responsible for appointing referees. An easy target for Italian-style influencing by rich presidents of big clubs. For the 1984/85 season, the Italian FA had replaced this practise with a system of random referee appointments. Coincidence or not – it was that year that Verona won the Serie A. Shocked by the result, the Italian FA quickly reinstated their referee-appointer, to the satisfaction of a few wealthy presidents. Since then, no minor side has ever won the Serie A again. It makes Elkjaer’s achievement with Verona all the more extraordinary.

Another place where Elkjaer is still remembered fondly is Denmark. Before he arrived on the scene, the Danes had never even qualified for a major tournament. With Elkjaer leading the line of a great generation, Denmark surprised the world with spectacular performances in both the 1984 Euro and 1986 World Cup. The Danes appeared to actually enjoy playing football, and Elkjaer symbolized their care-free attitude more than anyone. Where others were seen labouring hard to maintain a disciplined work-rate, Elkjaer appeared to laugh his way to success. The crowds loved him for it. His coaches didn’t. On one occassion, years earlier, the German disciplinarian Hennes Weisweiller informed Elkjær that he knew the player had visited a nightclub in the company of a bottle of whiskey and a lady. Elkjaer responded that it was all a lie. It had been a bottle of vodka. And two ladies.

This same boldness that he showed off the field enabled him to take on defender after defender on the field. In Mexico 1986, he scored a hat trick in Denmark’s 6-1 demolition of Uruguay and was voted third best player of the tournament. Denmark went home after the first KO game, but Elkjaer had left his impression on the world.

An impression that, sadly, hasn’t lasted as long as it should have."

 

[harms]

Righteo I'll be back later when Harms comes on - One quick point is that Bergkamp is comfortably the most creative player that Harms has in terms of providing the final pass or creative through ball and I can't think of a better player to limit his influence than Sammer.

Bergkamp is a fantastic passer and right up there with Totti and Bochini in that respect, but he does not have the raw pace or agility to get away from Sammer picking him up.

I won't be silly here, Bergkamp's good enough to play quick passes so he isn't going to be shut out of the game or anything, but the fact remains that he is extremely well covered by Sammer and I think his impact on the game will be far lower that it would be with a lesser player than Sammer picking him up.

To put it another way, I think Bergkamp is better restricted here than either Totti or Bochini. And Bergkamp is Harm's most creative player.

I know that you have to love him, but I think that you are overplaying it a bit, he was a great passer, but not in the elite category such as Totti and Bergkamp, he was a level below. By the way, I have no idea who this Hugo Asch is, but Jonathan Wilson is quoting him: "Ricardo Bochini, described by the journalist Hugo Asch as ‘a midget, ungainly, imperturbable, without a powerful shot, nor header, nor charisma’". I'm not rating him on the words of some unknown to me journalist, just thought that this was a very funny description

If Sammer is watching over Bergkamp (I'm not sure that he can mark him out of the game but it would certainly decrease his impact) , I really thing that you are in big trouble when I'm in possession - you are lacking defensive players, plain and simple. My fullbacks, especially Kaltz would cross/pass/shoot from the flanks while Sammer would be busy dealing with Bergkamp - I believe that I addressed this point in my write-up, this is my main road to goal, and, while Bergkamp is my main final ball specialist you shouldn't underestimate Neeskens and Falcao (no comment needed) and Bonhof - who was, actually, man-marked by Neeskens in 1974 because of his dangerous balls to Muller. Well, Bonhof ended up with the winning assist and assisted 4 more in the 1976 Euro's semi-final and final.

I answered to your posts and will try to wait until your return, I think that would be fair, as you are quite busy.

 

[Raees]

first thoughts...

• That midfield area is going to be awfully congested during this game.. wing backs getting forward and being decisive will be essential.
• Can Bochini, Totti and Rivaldo really play in the same set up? or is it overkill
• like the battle of the underrated powerful strikers [elkjaer v Krankl]
• Blokhin is a game-changer.. the type of player who on form can defeat even an organised defence
• I know it is heresy to say this but I'm not a fan of Bergkamp.. kind of player that can be marked out of a game but comes up with genius moments, but Souness/Sammer can handle him. He's not a patch on Rivaldo in my opinion.
• Tight game, evenly matched in terms of tactics.. will come down to moment's of brilliance rather than one team totally dominating the other, can that energetic midfield trio suffocate that trio of 10's.

 

[harms]

first thoughts...

• That midfield area is going to be awfully congested during this game.. wing backs getting forward and being decisive will be essential.
• Can Bochini, Totti and Rivaldo really play in the same set up? or is it overkill
• like the battle of the underrated powerful strikers [elkjaer v Krankl]
• Blokhin is a game-changer.. the type of player who on form can defeat even an organised defence
• I know it is heresy to say this but I'm not a fan of Bergkamp.. kind of player that can be marked out of a game but comes up with genius moments, but Souness/Sammer can handle him. He's not a patch on Rivaldo in my opinion.
• Tight game, evenly matched in terms of tactics.. will come down to moment's of brilliance rather than one team totally dominating the other, can that energetic midfield trio suffocate that trio of 10's.

Don't agree with you on Bergkamp, to be fair. Actually, I would argue, that he is tougher to mark than Totti or Baggio, whom I rate about the same level with him. His game was based on his coolness and always doing the right, safe thing - and while more explosive players tried to do something risky, they got caught by a proper marker. The Bergkamp's paradox though is that his "safe" things were sometimes absolutely out of this world. Another great example of this - in his early days his usual goal was the little chip over the keeper. When his coaches asked him why he never simply hit it in the corner, he answered that the chip if safer, because if you do it right, the keeper can't do anything.

Defender always waits for the attacking player to make a mistake and than try and retrieve the ball, other way it would be a foul. But that's the thing about Bergkamp - he doesn't make any. And while on his day, when all the risky passes and clever flicks work as a charm an explosive player like Nani (example, of course, I just don't want to compare Bergkamp to any players from the draft here - though I have one in mind) can be unplayable, if he is a little off and is playing against great defender, he will get lost. Bergkamp's lowest level was still unbelievably high - he is like Scholes, but higher up the pitch.

Here's what Van Persie said about him one time, it perfectly describes him:

I don’t have enough words to describe him. I once finished my training early, and was watching him from the Jacuzzi. He had just come back from injury and was doing an exercise involving passing and shooting, with boards and mannequins. I sat and waited for him to make a mistake – but he never did. I got wrinkly hands from the bathtub! He did that exercise for over 45 minutes and he didn’t make one single error. To me it was art.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Theon @MJJ So is Sammer in his peak libero role here or playing as a defensive midfielder?

 

[harms]

Paul McGrath is covering for him as well who was a fantastic defender in his own right. He was also extremely mobile.

When Passarella won the World Cup in '78 his CB partner, Galvan, was an absolute nightmare positionally and not in the same league as McGrath yet Passarella was consistently fantastic and Argentina conceded just four goals all tournament.

You've mentioned Matthias Sammer - and I'm being serious here - but I can't think of a player more suited to hypothetically cover for Passarella in that role. And I say hypothetically because it doesn't happen that much, far less than you're implying. Really, the only player I can think of since the 50's would be Frank Rijkaard and he isn't even eligible for this draft. Sammer is perfect for Passarella there.

But to get back to the main point, this nonsense about getting caught out just does not happen anywhere near as frequently as you're suggesting it does. I compared Passarella to Baresi and IMO it's an apt view, both were great on the ball but both were primarily just wonderful centre backs.

Sorry, missed this post. I'm not sure how long I would be here today and tomorrow would be a busy day for me, so I will reply

Can't criticize McGrath - it's a United forum and everyone love him to bits, including me. Brilliant defender. But if he is covering for Passarella, does Cafu goes more centrally? Of course this is a thing of a moment, until Passarella returns back, but is he suited for this role? Again, if Sammer is somehow restricted than I have no issue with your defense whatsoever (apart from Rodriguez, of course). But without Sammer giving his all to a midfield battle, you will lose it - you have a numerical advantage here, but only Souness and Sammer are going to participate in pressing/defending, while your attacking trio isn't going to participate in getting the ball back, especially Rivaldo and Bochini. And this isn't the case of talent/technique against brutal force, wednesday night in Stoke, if you prefer - I have 2 out of 3 best passers on the pitch (Falcao, Totti and Bergkamp), for example.

I do agree with you that Passarella is the best sweeper that you could've got for this formation, but I just think that boring central defender would've done a better job here, considering that you already have Sammer as a DM/sweeper, and not as a roaming box-to-box. Or if you had a left back that could've become LCB/CB when needed.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

harms point on versatility will be crucial here imo. When his team has the ball, Neeskens or Bonhof will move out wide and be able to bring the ball forward with much more ease than Theon's team who are have to move the ball through over crowded middle and are dependant on full backs for width. This versatality added with very good full backs give harms dominance in the wide areas.

 

[Gio]

Imagine having Passarella and Souness in the same dressing room. They'd be comparing the size of their ample bollocks in the showers.

 

[antohan]

I'm not sure I like Falcao's positioning there. Why not Bonhof deep? Carlos? Isn't Kaltz as much of an issue?

 

[harms]

Not a very serious comment, but I'd like to add something about the dressing room after Gio's comment.

First - I have 4 germans that played together for quite some, sadly, one of them can't imagine his life without a joint (I honestly didn't expect Stielike to be that guy, he looks so intelligent). Maybe Bonhof wasn't a starter when Stielike, Forster and Kaltz won Euro 80 and didn't participate at all in their path to 1982 World Cup final (his glory days were a little earlier), but he was still the part of the team. A strong core is always good.

Second, and the most important:
We all know that Reina was the most crucial part of that dominating Spanish team 08-12 - it's important to have your own clown in the dressing room. I have my very own clown right up top - not only he was one of the most fearsome forwards around, Hans Krankl was also a famous musician and entertainer. He is waiting to put Barca shirt on Bergkamp after our glorious victory.
Also, he is Batman:

Fantastic hommage to Freddy Mercury (from 7:37, somehow it starts little earlier):

Krankl and his beloved friend and teammate Prohaska - I can't imagine a better man to cheer my guys up and defuse the tension

 

[Gio]

I'm not sure I like Falcao's positioning there. Why not Bonhof deep? Carlos? Isn't Kaltz as much of an issue?

Yeah, it's a bit of a handbrake-on scenario IMO.

 

[harms]

I'm not sure I like Falcao's positioning there. Why not Bonhof deep? Carlos? Isn't Kaltz as much of an issue?

I tried to explain it in my write-up. Bonhof has more defensive responsibility, actually and his positioning has nothing to do with Carlos. While defending, he will drop deep and be a proper DM. I positioned him like that as this is the role that I want him to perform while we are in possession - he would provide his famous runs and provide width if needed as he played as a wing-back and wide midfielder, on the left too (posted the video in the last match, and Balu showed his positioning in the game against Liverpool, I believe). More central role will help Falcao to control the game - but, again, he isn't free of dirty work, he wasn't that kind of a player anyway, but Bonhof is more of a "piano carrier" here

@Gio this is for you too

 

[Theon]

When his team has the ball, Neeskens or Bonhof will move out wide and be able to bring the ball forward with much more ease than Theon's team who are have to move the ball through over crowded middle and are dependant on full backs for width. This versatality added with very good full backs give harms dominance in the wide areas.

Lots of things to reply to but I'll do this first.

You're highlighting width from Neeskens and Bonhof for Harms, whereas I'm apparently reliant on the fullbacks.. How on earth does that work? Totti and Elkjaer will both provide more width than those two players - quite comfortably. I'm more familiar with Totti and pre-injury he would roam across the pitch all of the time. One of my favourite passes of the last decade came with Totti pulling wide right and slicing a cross into the box.

But most unfairly of all you've completely ignored Rivaldo. I mean seriously, he's the best attacker on the pitch playing in his best role in which he constantly pulled out to the wings, and you completely ignore him yet mention fecking Bonhof and Neeskens.

 

[harms]

Spoiler: In possession

Spoiler: Defending

Another reason that Bonhof is slightly on the left is because Theon's second most threatening player, Totti, is playing on the right attacking position in his rectangle - and he is instructed to look after him.

 

[harms]

Lots of things to reply to but I'll do this first.

You're highlighting width from Neeskens and Bonhof for Harms, whereas I'm apparently reliant on the fullbacks.. How on earth does that work? Totti and Elkjaer will both provide more width than those two players - quite comfortably. I'm more familiar with Totti and pre-injury he would roam across the pitch all of the time. One of my favourite passes of the last decade came with Totti pulling wide right and slicing a cross into the box.

But most unfairly of all you've completely ignored Rivaldo. I mean seriously, he's the best attacker on the pitch playing in his best role in which he constantly pulled out to the wings, and you completely ignore him yet mention fecking Bonhof and Neeskens.

Wait, if Elkjaer is providing width than why the hell do you need width in the first place? You have literally nobody who can threaten my center-backs in the air in that case.

About Rivaldo - he is the best attacking player on the pitch, though I don't think that the gap is big between him and Blokhin. But he is up against one of the best man-markers in the game - Forster succeeded against Platini (who is superior player to Rivaldo), Ceulemans and Sanchiz. And, this seems to be overlooked, but I rate the real-life connections highly in this fantasy games - and he is partnered by Kaltz - maybe not the greatest defensive fullback, but the understanding between them is very important.

And I do feel that Rivaldo will miss the great overlapping fullback who would've allow him to operate in a more free space

 

[antohan]

I know that you have to love him, but I think that you are overplaying it a bit, he was a great passer, but not in the elite category such as Totti and Bergkamp, he was a level below. By the way, I have no idea who this Hugo Asch is, but Jonathan Wilson is quoting him: "Ricardo Bochini, described by the journalist Hugo Asch as ‘a midget, ungainly, imperturbable, without a powerful shot, nor header, nor charisma’". I'm not rating him on the words of some unknown to me journalist, just thought that this was a very funny description

It's an accurate description, which actually says a lot of what an amazing player he was. He had NOTHING going for him, you would see him and just assume him to be a randomer, very odd-looking chap you wouldn't give two pennies for... then on the pitch with ball at his feet he shat on anyone. Effortlessly.

Him not being in the elite category of Totti/Bergkamp is utter rubbish, it just plays on ignorance, not fact. He won the Libertadores four (4) times and "he won" is very much the right term to use. What did those two ever achieve in comparison? I have all the time in the world for these fellas but saying he is not comfortable in their company is completely misguided.

 

[antohan]

I like the feisty exchanges, have to say, for once I can sit back and not be part of them

 

[harms]

It's an accurate description, which actually says a lot of what an amazing player he was. He had NOTHING going for him, you would see him and just assume him to be a randomer, very odd-looking chap you wouldn't give two pennies for... then on the pitch with ball at his feet he shat on anyone. Effortlessly.

Him not being in the elite category of Totti/Bergkamp is utter rubbish, it just plays on ignorance, not fact. He won the Libertadores four (4) times and "he won" is very much the right term to use. What did those two ever achieve in comparison? I have all the time in the world for these fellas but saying he is not comfortable in their company is completely misguided.

Maybe so - you clearly know more about him (and "more" is a massive understatement, I believe) - I read just a little bit about him and saw a couple of clips, you saw him playing. His through-balls are much better when the opponents leaves him free space to exploit - my defensive approach is all about squeezing it

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Lots of things to reply to but I'll do this first.

You're highlighting width from Neeskens and Bonhof for Harms, whereas I'm apparently reliant on the fullbacks.. How on earth does that work? Totti and Elkjaer will both provide more width than those two players - quite comfortably. I'm more familiar with Totti and pre-injury he would roam across the pitch all of the time. One of my favourite passes of the last decade came with Totti pulling wide right and slicing a cross into the box.

But most unfairly of all you've completely ignored Rivaldo. I mean seriously, he's the best attacker on the pitch playing in his best role in which he constantly pulled out to the wings, and you completely ignore him yet mention fecking Bonhof and Neeskens.

I didn't mention Rivaldo ebcuae his role is one I don't have any problems with. He is definitely a upgrade on Eder there. What is lacking there is Rodriguez instead of Junior who I personally don't have too much knowledge of, but never had a impression of being that as attack minded as junior in that role.

Though technically a 4-2-2-2, I'm assuming in a picture book, your team would actually be operating like...

..................Elkjaer................
...Rivaldo................Totti......
................Bochini.................

I think the mismatch is in terms of you missing the goal threat that Falcao provided. Also I'm not sure that Totti out wide would give the same output as Zico. Rivaldo might, but he is missing the support of Junior.

Still in vague thoughts though. Quite interesting. Though I've voted before on this, I'm still looking at this....

 

[Theon]

Wait, if Elkjaer is providing width than why the hell do you need width in the first place? You have literally nobody who can threaten my center-backs in the air in that case.

The same way that Neeskens presumably isn't spending all game marooned out wide it's the exact same with Elkjaer. You've said how Neeskens is providing width, but then he's also clearly playing in the middle - it's no different for Elkjaer.

All I'm saying is that there are numerous players comfortable operating in wide areas. In terms of Elkjaer specifically he jad fantastic movement and would often drift wide into space to utilise his excellent dribbling ability. So in this game for instance, say if Roberto Carlos gets caught up field then a really natural reaction would be for Elkjaer to pull wide into the empty space, before either turning and running at Ruggeri, cutting it back to Totti on the edge of the area or fizzing it across to Rivaldo at the back post.

That would be completely natural for Elkjaer because he is comfortable in those wider areas.

And actually, just mentioning Ruggeri has made me realise that Elkjaer is the exact player Ruggeri would struggle to get to grips with. He's a rock solid, tough defender but his lack of agility could be exploited by Elkjaer's pace and dribbling.

About Rivaldo - he is the best attacking player on the pitch, though I don't think that the gap is big between him and Blokhin.

Come on, that's just not true. I like Blokhin but he's comfortably in at least a tier below Rivaldo - who is the only forward on the pitch in that All-Time great category.

That's more a case of giving Rivaldo his due than me trying to downplay Blokhin mind. As I said in the OP Rivaldo scored 116 goals in four seasons at his peak with Barcelona, which is an insane record given that he either played on the wing or as a second striker. He pretty much won La Liga on his own for Barcelona, in Van Gaal's second season if I recall correctly - That's when he won the Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year.

Internationally as well Rivaldo was fantastic and made the Team of the Tournament in both '98 and '02. I thought he was the best player full stop when Brazil won the World Cup in 2002. But yeah, in terms of peaks I think you're only looking at a handful of players in the last two decades who can match Rivaldo.

 

[Raees]

Just makes you wonder what is in that brazilian water.. just taking 90-noughties into account.. they've produced 4 cracking Fifa world player of the years.. Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho.

 

[Theon]

I didn't mention Rivaldo ebcuae his role is one I don't have any problems with. He is definitely a upgrade on Eder there.

Though technically a 4-2-2-2, I'm assuming in a picture book, your team would actually be operating like...

..................Elkjaer................
...Rivaldo................Totti......
................Bochini.................

I think the mismatch is in terms of you missing the goal threat that Falcao provided. Also I'm not sure that Totti out wide would give the same output as Zico. Rivaldo might, but he is missing the support of Junior.

Aye, but what I was really trying to get at is at is your comment that the team was reliant on the fullbacks to provide width - which isn't true IMO when so many of these players have done just that at the highest level. And then to make it worse you crack on about fecking Neeskens and Bonhof stretching the pitch for Harms!

But yeah, to get to your points - You're spot on with that formation picture. It's interesting that you mention Brazil '82 and their magic square, as that was a similar shape to the one above. It was not a pure 4-2-2-2 as it's often shown as on formation pictures, it was actually a mix of these two systems,

----- EDER --- SERGINHO ----
----- ZICO -- SOCRATES
---- FALCAO -- CEREZO --

---------- SERGINHO ----
EDER --- ZICO -- SOCRATES
---- FALCAO -- CEREZO ---

As a kind of hybrid between the two. You've mentioned Eder who as you say came to the left, similar to Rivaldo here. On the right it was actually Socrates usually as opposed to Zico and in terms of moving out wide I disagree that Totti would have a lesser impact, I think he shares a lot of similarities to Socrates.

The bigger difference in that side would be Zico to Bochini, as they're different players entirely. But to be clear here I'm not actually comparing this team to that one - just responding to your points.

Also Falcao didn't score very many goals at all really. As it's Friday I'm going to assume you've had a few beers and meant someone else!

 

[Theon]

Just makes you wonder what is in that brazilian water.. just taking 90-noughties into account.. they've produced 4 cracking Fifa world player of the years.. Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho.

Aye, it was a real conveyor belt of talent back then. Makes you wonder where they all are now.

 

[Raees]

Don't agree with you on Bergkamp, to be fair. Actually, I would argue, that he is tougher to mark than Totti or Baggio, whom I rate about the same level with him. His game was based on his coolness and always doing the right, safe thing - and while more explosive players tried to do something risky, they got caught by a proper marker. The Bergkamp's paradox though is that his "safe" things were sometimes absolutely out of this world. Another great example of this - in his early days his usual goal was the little chip over the keeper. When his coaches asked him why he never simply hit it in the corner, he answered that the chip if safer, because if you do it right, the keeper can't do anything.

Defender always waits for the attacking player to make a mistake and than try and retrieve the ball, other way it would be a foul. But that's the thing about Bergkamp - he doesn't make any. And while on his day, when all the risky passes and clever flicks work as a charm an explosive player like Nani (example, of course, I just don't want to compare Bergkamp to any players from the draft here - though I have one in mind) can be unplayable, if he is a little off and is playing against great defender, he will get lost. Bergkamp's lowest level was still unbelievably high - he is like Scholes, but higher up the pitch.

Here's what Van Persie said about him one time, it perfectly describes him:

I'm aware of that quote and there is no doubt he was a fine technician - some dutch experts consider him the most technically gifted ever... although I think whilst he is capable of the absolute sublime - Baggio at his peak is another level but that isn't relevant to this game.

Passarella, Mcgrath and Sammer.. v Blokhin, Bergkamp and Krankl. The attacking trio do complement each other in that they'll make space for Bergkamp.. Blokhin will definitely have moments where he beats his man. That defensive trio is rock solid though and then you have Cafu and Souness to lend a hand.

Bochini, Totti, Rivaldo v Falcao, Neeskens and Bonhof.. For me I just love that midfield trio.. two of my favourites in Neeskens and Falcao. Too much energy, mental strength and quality.. to let the trio of magicians cast their spells and bewitch Ruggeri and co..

Elkjaer v Ruggeri et al, on his day this guy can destroy anyone. Batistuta like in that sense and doesn't need great service.

I'm still undecided - tough tough game.. I'm not convinced by either sides attack to the extent I can say one is definitely better than the other - yet I have it as 1-1 in terms of defence and midfield.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

---------- SERGINHO ----
EDER --- ZICO -- SOCRATES
---- FALCAO -- CEREZO ---

As a kind of hybrid between the two. You've mentioned Eder who as you say came to the left, similar to Rivaldo here. On the right it was actually Socrates usually as opposed to Zico and in terms of moving out wide I disagree that Totti would have a lesser impact, I think he shares a lot of similarities to Socrates.

Are you sure on this? I thought it was the other way around...

---------- SERGINHO ----
EDER --- Socrates -- Zico
---- FALCAO -- CEREZO ---

 

[antohan]

Are you sure on this? I thought it was the other way around...

---------- SERGINHO ----
EDER --- Socrates -- Zico
---- FALCAO -- CEREZO ---

No, Socrates was right. Eder peeled wide allowing Zico to burst into the box, Falcao pushed forward into Zico's spot and Junior would tuck into Zico's spot and into a left midfield playmaking role.

It was great when it worked but sometimes they were truly awful if I'm honest and the game against Italy was a great example. Cerezo always gets blamed for his shite pass, but some blame Junior (ball-watching for two goals), while others actually look at the entire game and conclude it was a terrible performance across the board.

I know you won't get all the stuff in Portuguese, but what you are seeing explains itself really. You may even learn some Portuguese since you can tell exactly what the point must be every time.