The Reality Draft - QF1: Raees vs VivaJanuzaj

[VivaJanuzaj]

I agree because you can't even place into context who those goals were scored against.. but the last thing I'll do is question Viva's goal-scoring pedigree, his front three are quality players. At the same time you can't say that Villa, Socrates, Stoichkov and Ballack haven't scored goals and plenty of them at the highest level against world-class defences.

Yeah I took it back, it was pointless to say it.

 

[Annahnomoss]

How are you planning to line up defensively and what are your specific defensive roles of the players? @Raees @VivaJanuzaj

 

[Chesterlestreet]

They lost but their individual performances were quality.. it is easy to pick games where they undoubtedly played well and their teams won i.e. Ballack (world cup semi).. or Socrates v USSR - but I'm highlighting two of the toughest tests in their careers and neither of them shirked their responsibilities.. they lost but did so heroically and did their job magnificently. Can you really say Socrates didn't perform his role well in that 82 classic? and Ballack was excellent in that game, but there is only so much you can do. This team is a lot more solid and plays to their strengths.

Socrates is one of my favourite players ever. If anything I'm likely to overrate his abilities. My comment was aimed more at your, say, rhetorical strategy here. If you play out a certain card, namely Veron's supposed lack of impact on high-stakes matches, it doesn't seem logical to highlight two performances in which the teams of Ballack and Socrates lost. Heroic performances mean nothing if you don't win.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

How are you planning to line up defensively and what are your specific defensive roles of the players? @Raees @VivaJanuzaj

Mine are pretty straightforward. Alaba and Reuter as pretty disciplined full backs who choose their forwards runs carefully, Vierchwood the stopper and Adams is a classic central defender. In midfield Keane and Seedorf are box to box(with Keane being a little more disciplined defensively), while Veron is a deep lying playmaker(who will burst forward when Keane stays back).

 

[Raees]

Socrates is one of my favourite players ever. If anything I'm likely to overrate his abilities. My comment was aimed more at your, say, rhetorical strategy here. If you play out a certain card, namely Veron's supposed lack of impact on high-stakes matches, it doesn't seem logical to highlight two performances in which the teams of Ballack and Socrates lost. Heroic performances mean nothing if you don't win.

Yes but what is worse.. going missing and choking in those games when the nation is depending on you, or doing your best and not being found wanting in incredibly testing conditions. At the end of the day football is 11 v 11, you can't blame these guys for ultimately ending up on the losing team.. you have to assess whether individually they a) were responsible for their teams losses because they were tactically a weak spot in the side b) invisible and didn't make an impression on those games or c) played magnificently but the overall quality of their sides/tactical set up of their side wasn't enough on the day to yield the result they wanted.

For both these players.. Brazil were too gung ho and not defensively sound enough to counter the Italian threat, but the role Socrates was meant to play for Brazil in that game.. he did superb, he scored an iconic goal against a all time great defence.. Bergomi, Scirea, Gentile, Carbrini.. most of these guys are star players in our draft teams and he went through them like knife through butter. He wasn't responsible for the defensive faults in that Brazil side.

Ballack.. commanding presence in that Italy game, every time he strode forward.. he looked untouchable, passes off either foot short or long.. found their target, split defences when he wanted to at will and he was making interceptions too, a very complete performance in a side which lacked the quality in either defence or attack to get the result needed.

Not many players can say they've performed in the biggest of games and say to themselves I did myself proud.. I didn't go missing or was individually inferior to my opponents. Their individual performance has to count for something surely? especially when attempting to judge how good these players actually were.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The threat from the combination of Stoichkov and Socrates for Keane to help shut down is much greater than the threat of Ballack's long shots. VDS is also a great shot stopper, and with Veron defending against that, Ballack will have to find space where it's not easy as you suggest. I don't need a defensive player to stop each attacking player, even Veron who isn't the most defensive minded midfielder can do a certain job defensively and you can't dismiss that

Well, Veron will occupy that space - and he doesn't look out of place as such in your set-up. But he wasn't much for actual defending, in fairness. He liked to operate fairly deep - but was clearly at his best when others did most of the heavy lifting. One of the reasons he never really worked in the Fergie style 4-4-2 was that he had no water carrier beside him in that formation. In the 4-3-3 Fergie developed for Europe, Veron all of a sudden looked like himself - having less lifting to do.

In short, expecting Veron to positively deal with anyone in a defensive sense - is a stretch, in all honesty. It's pretty much like asking, say, Pirlo to do the same. It ain't what such players do, in spite of them sitting deep and seemingly providing cover.

 

[Raees]

How are you planning to line up defensively and what are your specific defensive roles of the players? @Raees @VivaJanuzaj

My back four's first and primary duty is to defend and that includes Zanetti. Viva has indicated that all Zanetti will do is bomb on, that is not true.. he and Davids main concern is to help out the defence. Zanetti will bomb forward when he feels the timing is right to do so and I also think the chances of him leaving Terry high and dry is overstated.. I have very good players in possession, it is a highly technical team with physically robust players.. they will not yield possession easily. The build up play is considered and not gung-ho.. it is highly unlikely that we will lose possession regularly enough for space behind Zanetti to be exploited and either way.. Francescoli.. is likely to cut in towards my back three. People are also forgetting Conti was strong at tracking back too.. you can't ask for more diligent combination on that right flank, they're a managers dream in terms of work rate and quality. I have said before I'm modelling my side on a Mourinho style mixed with Jupp bayern side.. it isn't going to be extremely pretty but their is enough flair and goals in that side to make the difference.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Well, Veron will occupy that space - and he doesn't look out of place as such in your set-up. But he wasn't much for actual defending, in fairness. He liked to operate fairly deep - but was clearly at his best when others did most of the heavy lifting. One of the reasons he never really worked in the Fergie style 4-4-2 was that he had no water carrier beside him in that formation. In the 4-3-3 Fergie developed for Europe, Veron all of a sudden looked like himself - having less lifting to do.

In short, expecting Veron to positively deal with anyone in a defensive sense - is a stretch, in all honesty. It's pretty much like asking, say, Pirlo to do the same. It ain't what such players do, in spite of them sitting deep and seemingly providing cover.

I'm not asking him to defend against Zidane, he's got Ballack here. A top notch midfielder, yes, but nothing he hasn't defended against before.
Seedorf and Keane do take the "heavy lifting" as you call it, the wings are my problem not the middle. If my opponent's only serious goalthreat is a long ranger from Ballack who has Veron defending against him, I can manage that.

Again, the basic thought is that Veron isn't defending against a top attacker - Zidane, Platini, Baggio, Iniesta or even Rui Costa, it's Ballack! He is a central midfielder who happens to be really good going forward. Veron isn't the best defensively and is pretty lazy there, but he can manage the job of preventing Ballack from scoring a long ranger, I'm not even remotely suggesting that he will stop Ballack completely, but he can definitely limit him at some level. Edgar, Raees and some other people talk as if he doesn't do anything defensively, just sit there and watch the midfield get overrun until we get the ball back.

 

[Raees]

I'm not asking him to defend against Zidane, he's got Ballack here. A top notch midfielder, yes, but nothing he hasn't defended against before.
Seedorf and Keane do take the "heavy lifting" as you call it, the wings are my problem not the middle. If my opponent's only serious goalthreat is a long ranger from Ballack who has Veron defending against him, I can manage that.

Again, the basic thought is that Veron isn't defending against a top attacker - Zidane, Platini, Baggio, Iniesta or even Rui Costa, it's Ballack! He is a central midfielder who happens to be really good going forward. Veron isn't the best defensively and is pretty lazy there, but he can manage the job of preventing Ballack from scoring a long ranger, I'm not even remotely suggesting that he will stop Ballack completely, but he can definitely limit him at some level. Edgar, Raees and some other people talk as if he doesn't do anything defensively, just sit there and watch the midfield get overrun until we get the ball back.

Ballack is a much greater goal threat than Zidane, Iniesta, Rui Costa.. destroys them in that regard in all honesty? Hate to bring up the goals record debate again but I definitely think it is relevant here.. he was a genuinely great goalscorer from midfield especially at international level.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Spoiler: Spoiler

Yes but what is worse.. going missing and choking in those games when the nation is depending on you, or doing your best and not being found wanting in incredibly testing conditions. At the end of the day football is 11 v 11, you can't blame these guys for ultimately ending up on the losing team.. you have to assess whether individually they a) were responsible for their teams losses because they were tactically a weak spot in the side b) invisible and didn't make an impression on those games or c) played magnificently but the overall quality of their sides/tactical set up of their side wasn't enough on the day to yield the result they wanted.

For both these players.. Brazil were too gung ho and not defensively sound enough to counter the Italian threat, but the role Socrates was meant to play for Brazil in that game.. he did superb, he scored an iconic goal against a all time great defence.. Bergomi, Scirea, Gentile, Carbrini.. most of these guys are star players in our draft teams and he went through them like knife through butter. He wasn't responsible for the defensive faults in that Brazil side.

Ballack.. commanding presence in that Italy game, every time he strode forward.. he looked untouchable, passes off either foot short or long.. found their target, split defences when he wanted to at will and he was making interceptions too, a very complete performance in a side which lacked the quality in either defence or attack to get the result needed.

Not many players can say they've performed in the biggest of games and say to themselves I did myself proud.. I didn't go missing or was individually inferior to my opponents. Their individual performance has to count for something surely? especially when attempting to judge how good these players actually were.

Again, I'm not arguing against the quality of your players and you don't have to convince me (or anyone else, I should think) that Socrates was great for Brazil in '82. I was making a comment regarding your choice of examples. It looks odd when you highlight a performance in which the player in question lost a high stakes match as a direct counter example to another player supposedly not having much of a pedigree in such matches.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Ballack is a much greater goal threat than Zidane, Iniesta, Rui Costa.. destroys them in that regard in all honesty?

Their goal threat is much higher than Ballack's. Maybe Ballack scores more, but their goal threat is being shown in their passing mate, I fear the defense-cutting passes much more than the long shots, and moreover, it's easier for a defender like Veron who won't run his socks off at defense to defend against the threat of long shots than the threat of a #10 who constantly runs all over the place while making one twos and places through balls to the forwards.
Another thing is, that Ballack is a CM, which forces him to be more responsible to the defensive duties. Zidane wasn't responsible to that, which makes him more threatening.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think Edgar was referring to Ballack rushing into the box earlier - not his long range shooting. He was good at the latter, obviously, but it's hardly a huge problem. The former, however, is far more dangerous - he was a handful and a half in the box, not least since he was bloody good in the air.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Very tight match up. Planning not to vote as of now. Even down to the keepers it is very even with Casillas being perfect against a poacher like RVN who may get a foot or a shoulder on anything for a deflection - and both Rummenigge and Enzo will unleash some shots which requires a pure shot stopper in goal for best affect. His weaker commanding aura in the box are well hidden next to Scirea and Terry who will dominate the air and organize the defensive line for him anyhow.

On the other end VDS is extremely well suited for his game as well and the crossing from Conti to Stoichkov/Villa behind the lines is something he'll be comfortable with together with Adams and Vierchowod. He adds some real composure to that centre back pairing which complements them well. Hard to go wrong with VDS considering he was so well rounded.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Just realized I've been misspelling Vierchowod as Vierchwood this whole time

 

[Annahnomoss]

Just realized I've been misspelling Vierchowod as Vierchwood this whole time

Difficult name!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think Edgar was referring to Ballack rushing into the box earlier - not his long range shooting. He was good at the latter, obviously, but it's hardly a huge problem. The former, however, is far more dangerous - he was a handful and a half in the box, not least since he was bloody good in the air.

This. For a midfielder, he scored an impressive number of goals during his peak. Most from his late runs into the box. And he is perfectly positoned to do that here. With Seedorf and Keane otherwise occupied, he will ghost into the box and that has goals written all over it.

I still think Viva should switch his midfield tactics around. Veron in front of Keane and Seedorf. Those 2 will shore up the defence considerably and can move up the support Veron when in possession. Raees lack of a DM give Veron all the time he needs to control the game and link up the attack.

 

[Raees]

Their goal threat is much higher than Ballack's. Maybe Ballack scores more, but their goal threat is being shown in their passing mate, I fear the defense-cutting passes much more than the long shots, and moreover, it's easier for a defender like Veron who won't run his socks off at defense to defend against the threat of long shots than the threat of a #10 who constantly runs all over the place while making one twos and places through balls to the forwards.
Another thing is, that Ballack is a CM, which forces him to be more responsible to the defensive duties. Zidane wasn't responsible to that, which makes him more threatening.

Ignoring his goals from set-pieces, most of his open play goals come from dangerous runs into the box and lethal headers.. or coming into the box and good finishes. These are dangerous runs which can only be tracked by a Carrick type player.. definitely not a Veron. Also Ballack may not be agile as an Iniesta or Zidane.. but he was a good ball carrier, very good technically at his peak and powerful...once he is running into space, he is very hard to stop. He is obviously more famed for his long passing off either foot.. but he could split a defence, he has the vision.. but obviously it is not a major part of his game.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

This. For a midfielder, he scored an impressive number of goals during his peak. Most from his late runs into the box. And he is perfectly positoned to do that here. With Seedorf and Keane otherwise occupied, he will ghost into the box and that has goals written all over it.

I still think Viva should switch his midfield tactics around. Veron in front of Keane and Seedorf. Those 2 will shore up the defence considerably and can move up the support Veron when in possession. Raees lack of a DM give Veron all the time he needs to control the game and link up the attack.

With who to help Reuter?

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Sorry, maybe I'm underrating Ballack's goalscoring abilities(and I don't), but maybe you guys underrate Veron's football wisdom. Come on, the guy can do a bit of defending, yeah he's no classic DM but he's capable of doing some defense. I can't get a grip of some comments here suggesting that he is a liability in defense, or won't do any defending. He occupies that CDM role, and while every other attacking aspect of Raees' team is covered I don't think he'll just stand there and watch Ballack go inside the box and score. Give me a break.

I don't think I'll be switching Veron and Keane because I think Raees' potential attacking threat from LW(which is being taken care of as I explained) is greater than Ballack's bursting runs inside the box are.

I'm happy to concede that Ballack is the only goal threat I'm not covering to the best possible, and if think Ballack will score a goal in this game, so be it. I feel I can definitely score more than one here.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Veron mostly played a 4-4-2 role next to a defensive box to box midfielder. I have no doubt he can do the defensive duties on the table, but I am not sure why he is left in a sitting role when he is your best central midfielder at going forward. Would make most sense to just have them all in a flat midfield three.

 

[antohan]

I think Davids can play that role, I really do, he might not do a good job like he would've done at his best role in midfield. What I don't think is that he can do both defend against Kalle, defend against Keane, cover for Terry's weakness and still make bursting runs forward to trouble my midfield. I just don't see all of them happening.

That's fair. I think it will take a great performance from him to contain Kalle and occasionally opt for cutting off Keane instead. That would leave Belodedici (not Terry) left with a job I find he can do competently (i.e. not keeping things tight in the entire left flank). In itself a great use of Davids and useful performance. Bursting forward? Not really, he can support from midfield, take the pass back from Socrates when under pressure, etc. but not go mental.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Veron mostly played a 4-4-2 role next to a defensive box to box midfielder. I have no doubt he can do the defensive duties on the table, but I am not sure why he is left in a sitting role when he is your best central midfielder at going forward. Would make most sense to just have them all in a flat midfield three.

That may be misleading. The reason I've placed Veron a bit deeper is because if I placed them in a flat line, people would've foolishly assumed he won't do any defending(as they are doing at the moment with no sense whatsoever).
I've explained in my tactics and in a couple of comments how Keane and Seedorf will cover for him on when he decides to go forward and participate in the final third build up with Enzo and Kalle, and they are perfectly suited to cover for him.

That's fair. I think it will take a great performance from him to contain Kalle and occasionally opt for cutting off Keane instead. That would leave Belodedici (not Terry) left with a job I find he can do competently (i.e. not keeping things tight in the entire left flank). In itself a great use of Davids and useful performance. Bursting forward? Not really, he can support from midfield, take the pass back from Socrates when under pressure, etc. but not go mental.

Well that's not what was suggested by Raees here. Davids' bursting forward runs came up a couple of times if I recall. Can't have it both ways. Like I'll say Alaba will bombard the LW while keeping track of Conti.

 

[antohan]

Well that's not what was suggested by Raees here. Davids' bursting forward runs came up a couple of times if I recall. Can't have it both ways. Like I'll say Alaba will bombard the LW while keeping track of Conti.

Can't be arsed to look it up, but rest assured I base myself on how I think each player will actually go about things, not "role inflation".

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Guys, please avoid the 'I'll vote later' stance. Let your opinions be known. There has been enough discussions for you all to make a decision. It can be changed anyway if you feel otherwise later...

That way manager's can sub players, change strategy etc to change fortunes.

Waiting till last moment takes away this.

 

[harms]

Is the idea of moving Zanetti to the left will be perceived as heresy?
I really don't like Raess set-up on the left and I think that would be better off with Davids in a more central role. The main penetrating threat is from the Viva's right flank anyway

This is very close, I think that I like Raess's setup a little more, but I'm not sure

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Is the idea of moving Zanetti to the left will be perceived as heresy?

Maldini on the right, Zanetti on the left. Absolutely acceptable

 

[Gio]

Is the idea of moving Zanetti to the left will be perceived as heresy?
I really don't like Raess set-up on the left and I think that would be better off with Davids in a more central role. The main penetrating threat is from the Viva's right flank anyway

This is very close, I think that I like Raess's setup a little more, but I'm not sure

Zanetti played left wing-back plenty early on in his Inter career. He's fine there.

 

[harms]

Maldini on the right, Zanetti on the left. Absolutely acceptable

I thought so I really don't like his left flank though, otherwise would've voted for him already.

 

[Raees]

Is the idea of moving Zanetti to the left will be perceived as heresy?
I really don't like Raess set-up on the left and I think that would be better off with Davids in a more central role. The main penetrating threat is from the Viva's right flank anyway

This is very close, I think that I like Raess's setup a little more, but I'm not sure

Like this..

 

[harms]

Zanetti played left wing-back plenty early on in his Inter career. He's fine there.

I know that he is fine and that he played there, I was just asking about how do people feel about pushing maybe one of the best right-backs of all-time (?) on the left.

 

[harms]

Like this..

Not really, the main reason that I wanted to push Zanetti to the left was because I think Conti can held the flank mostly on his own - or, at least, provide a good cover (like he did in 82, for example) and Stoichkov can't - because he is an inside forward and it isn't his job.

I'm not sure that this is a good idea though

 

[Raees]

Not really, the main reason that I wanted to push Zanetti to the left was because I think Conti can held the flank mostly on his own - or, at least, provide a good cover (like he did in 82, for example) and Stoichkov can't - because he is an inside forward and it isn't his job.

I'm not sure that this is a good idea though

Edited.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Conti played on the right without a full-back for Italy. Tardelli instead pushed up as a central midfielder slightly(RCM) to the right to support Conti. Conti with the support of Tardelli was the primary weapon of the Italians so he was more than a handful without a full back to help him.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Like this..

Looks good.

 

[harms]

Edited.

Something like that with a lot of arrows

You have a brilliant personnel for this, imo
Morena - 9, striker
Stoichkov - 11, inside-left forward
Conti - 7, right-flank attacker
Davids - 4, deep-lying cm
Ballack - 8, link-man
Socratis - 10, well, №10
Scirea - 6, sweeper

Spoiler

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Raees are you changing the formation? Should I update it in the OP?

 

[Raees]

Officially updated - go for it @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[Raees]

• Scirea v Rumenigge... and help from Zanetti too.
• Conti v Alaba and tracks back to help out with any overlaps on the right flank.
• Belodedici v Enzo .. very tactically intelligent defender who will read his trickery well but has Ballack and Conti protecting his flank too.
• Stoichkov given more freedom to come inside and wreak havoc.. Davids/Socrates combination to take care of Reuter overlaps but I doubt he'll have the time to be bombing forward much.. alot of danger down his side, which means big V will have to drift over to quell it and that leaves Adams, Alaba and Veron to deal with Ballack, Socrates, Conti and Villa. Massive mismatch.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Raees forgot to vote for yourself?

 

[Joga Bonito]

As of now it is

Raees - 8 (will be 10 if he votes for himself)
VivaJanuzaj - 13