The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[JP77]

Fury would get destroyed by Lennox, Tyson, Vitali, Ali, Foreman, Bowe. etc.

Maybe he’s big and can box a bit but those guys were real superstars if Cunningham can put Fury on his back I dread to think what a prime Tyson or Lewis would do to him.

You've just mentioned some of the best Heavyweight's in boxing history, don't think there would be any shame in any of them beating Fury (which is all in a hypothetical world anyway). I certainly don't think he'd get destroyed by all of them though but again, we'll never know. Boxing has changed over time like all sports and as always a lot of people always rate the past over the present.

Bit silly to be judging Fury because he got knocked down in a fight 8 years ago by a guy he's openly admitted was one of his toughest fights.

Yup and even then that Wlad was some sort of poor imitation. I think even he has said he didn’t prepare properly for that fight. But yeah in part I think it’s been the over-rating of Wilder that’s got this going. Knocking out failed NBA players come boxers padding his record have twisted people’s opinions of what good boxing actually is or requires.

Fury is clearly good, but once he works his way through Parker, Ruiz, Whyte,Uysk, Povetkin, AJ then maybe he can start making a claim for best boxer of his generation. As for Wilder he’s not fought any off that list and should probably start looking in to it although I think all 6 would probably beat him.

Of course Wlad said that, because he never liked Fury and was completely embaressed in his own back yard and eventually built a bond with Joshua. Apparently Joshua beat the best Wlad ever but the one Fury beat prior to that was an unmotivated, over the hill Wlad, all a bit silly really.

Not sure what Povetkin is down anywhere in this conversation, catching Whyte out of the blue recently doesn't change that he's 42 and shouldn't be anywhere near a conversation of who Fury should be fighting to prove himself. Ruiz is being thrown in as well despite barely anybody actually knowing who he was before he beat Joshua.

Quite clear that an issue that Fury has with his recent record is the fact he spent close to 3 years out of the ring on a drugs and drink binge having a mental breakdown and almost committing suicide. Most fighters through the time he spent out of the ring would have fought 4-5 times. Had that not happened there's a good chance he would have fought more of the names people mention now. It's not an excuse for Fury but it's a legit reason for why he doesn't have more names on his record.

I'd definitely say the likes of Povetkin, Ruiz and Parker shouldn't be mentioned anywhere near Fury's name. He's at a point in his career I'd say where he doesn't need to fight any of them. It'll be Whyte, Usyk and Joshua. Maybe one or two others potentially thrown into the mix in the form of a Joyce after a few more fights and that's if Fury hasn't called it a day by that stage. What's going to motivate him to want to fight guys like Povetkin and Parker? It's a huge step down. Say what you want about Wilder but that's much more box office than a Fury vs Povetkin etc.

A great boxer that deserves credit but will always have his fair share of people discrediting him.

 

[Deery]

You've just mentioned some of the best Heavyweight's in boxing history, don't think there would be any shame in any of them beating Fury (which is all in a hypothetical world anyway). I certainly don't think he'd get destroyed by all of them though but again, we'll never know. Boxing has changed over time like all sports and as always a lot of people always rate the past over the present.

Bit silly to be judging Fury because he got knocked down in a fight 8 years ago by a guy he's openly admitted was one of his toughest fights.

I think it is relevant Cunningham was a cruiser weight and gave Fury a tough fight, if he can do it then the like of Bowe or Tyson can do much more.

I mentioned those names because the discussion was about Fury and past greats and I don’t think he’d fair to good against them, no shame in it as they’re great fighters but I think Fury needs a better resume before even getting considered ATG.

 

[Gringo]

Fury can fight more names to boost his record. But he has the two biggest names he could have fought in Wlad and Wilder, two champions with multiple defences, 18 and 10 respectively, both unbeaten for years, beat both AWAY FROM HOME. He doesn't need to beat anyone else, he can retire now and be considered best of the era.

 

[redshaw]

I'd hope we see the last of Trilogies. Two fights I can understand, more so after the first one is close, I think this was a 3 match right at the start but with the time it takes to complete them I'd really want different boxers facing each other as time runs out and past their prime or whatever, no more boxers ducking fights, no more setting up trilogies. Wilder was one too many.

I also don't agree with current notions of if this boxer loses then he should retire or he's finished. No, he can lose but come back better and work their way back. I don't rate Wilder much but he should still go on to fight some of the others, I mean if he beats AJ and another he could've met Fury for a third time in a much more exciting contest, maybe more experienced.

 

[Kazi]

Fury is ahead of Tyson all time though and is slowly making his way into the Top 10

 

[ZupZup]

I think it is relevant Cunningham was a cruiser weight and gave Fury a tough fight, if he can do it then the like of Bowe or Tyson can do much more.

I mentioned those names because the discussion was about Fury and past greats and I don’t think he’d fair to good against them, no shame in it as they’re great fighters but I think Fury needs a better resume before even getting considered ATG.

But that version of Fury wasn’t as good as he is now… not even close to as good.

A bit like me saying Fury would destroy Mike Tyson because Tyson got beat by Danny Williams. It’s a daft logic.

Whilst I wouldn’t like to talk about who would beat who as it seems like nonsense… Fury would be a tough fight for a heavyweight of any era because of his sheer size and quality of movement alone.

 

[JP77]

I think it is relevant Cunningham was a cruiser weight and gave Fury a tough fight, if he can do it then the like of Bowe or Tyson can do much more.

I mentioned those names because the discussion was about Fury and past greats and I don’t think he’d fair to good against them, no shame in it as they’re great fighters but I think Fury needs a better resume before even getting considered ATG.

8 years ago when Fury was nowhere near as good as he is now.

For the record I'm not calling Fury the greatest ever. Like I said, for me he's a great heavyweight that likely would have made it in any era. He may have lost to any of the names you mentioned, we'll never know. Like I said, the close to 3 year layoff is what effects his record. He's come back from that and let's be honest, most of us would probably favor him against any of the heavyweights around which is credit to just how good he is to come back from where he was at to where he's at now.

 

[ivaldo]

Fury can fight more names to boost his record. But he has the two biggest names he could have fought in Wlad and Wilder, two champions with multiple defences, 18 and 10 respectively, both unbeaten for years, beat both AWAY FROM HOME. He doesn't need to beat anyone else, he can retire now and be considered best of the era.

That's not even close to being true.

 

[JP77]

That's not even close to being true.

Definitely is. Wlad at the time was the undisputable number one. Wilder, no matter how much hate he get's on here, is one of the biggest fights he could have taken. Usyk has had two fights at Heavyweight and Fury hasn't even had a chance to fight him so he can't be included. Joshua is the only other one. Wlad and Wilder are seen as bigger fights than Whyte, Parker etc.

 

[pocco]

That's not even close to being true.

How far away can it be? They're the two fights everyone wanted for yer man AJ afterall. But we know that doesn't suit your agenda. You're dying on your sword over Fury though, I'll give you that.

 

[ivaldo]

Definitely is. Wlad at the time was the undisputable number one. Wilder, no matter how much hate he get's on here, is one of the biggest fights he could have taken. Usyk has had two fights at Heavyweight and Fury hasn't even had a chance to fight him so he can't be included. Joshua is the only other one. Wlad and Wilder are seen as bigger fights than Whyte, Parker etc.

Absolute revisionism. Wilder could scarcely sell out a school hall before he fought Fury. Casual fight fans didn't even know who he was. Whyte, Parker etc all had bigger names and better records.

How far away can it be? They're the two fights everyone wanted for yer man AJ afterall. But we know that doesn't suit your agenda. You're dying on your sword over Fury though, I'll give you that.

You getting upset that I'm offending your precious Fury? see the above and get your head out of your/his arse. Trying to make out Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ is, frankly, embarassing.

 

[Deery]

But that version of Fury wasn’t as good as he is now… not even close to as good.

A bit like me saying Fury would destroy Mike Tyson because Tyson got beat by Danny Williams. It’s a daft logic.

Whilst I wouldn’t like to talk about who would beat who as it seems like nonsense… Fury would be a tough fight for a heavyweight of any era because of his sheer size and quality of movement alone.

Like I said before I think the best version of Fury was 2015 when he give a punch perfect performance against Wlad a much better fighter than Wilder albeit on his decline. People really love to live in the moment wait until the hype dies down before we get in serious discussion about ATG stuff.

 

[Deery]

8 years ago when Fury was nowhere near as good as he is now.

For the record I'm not calling Fury the greatest ever. Like I said, for me he's a great heavyweight that likely would have made it in any era. He may have lost to any of the names you mentioned, we'll never know. Like I said, the close to 3 year layoff is what effects his record. He's come back from that and let's be honest, most of us would probably favor him against any of the heavyweights around which is credit to just how good he is to come back from where he was at to where he's at now.

2015 was the best version of Fury people think because he beat Wilder it’s the best he ever was when his performance against Wlad was much more impressive.

He’s a very good fighter no doubt about it and he could wipe up the division which would be very impressive.

 

[Revan]

Absolute revisionism. Wilder could scarcely sell out a school hall before he fought Fury. Casual fight fans didn't even know who he was. Whyte, Parker etc all had bigger names and better records.


You getting upset that I'm offending your precious Fury? see the above and get your head out of your/his arse. Trying to make out Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ is, frankly, embarassing.

There is no universe where Whyte or Parker were bigger fights than Wilder. People have been craving for AJ-Wilder for years, just that it didn’t happen, it doesn’t make a fight with Wilder smaller than the other two.

Klitschko as lineal beats any fight that Joshua did, anyway.

Like him or not, Fury has easily the best CV out of heavyweights, though I hope that it is Usyk the one who unifies the belts.

 

[ivaldo]

There is no universe where Whyte or Parker were bigger fights than Wilder. People have been craving for AJ-Wilder for years, just that it didn’t happen, it doesn’t make a fight with Wilder smaller than the other two.

Klitschko as lineal beats any fight that Joshua did, anyway.

Like him or not, Fury has easily the best CV out of heavyweights, though I hope that it is Usyk the one who unifies the belts.

AJ is 10 times the draw Wilder is. That's not even debatable. So to return to the original point: how the flying feck is Wilder a bigger name than AJ? Wilder has fought, what, 3 names in the top 10. It's a terrible record. Back then we had an unbeaten Ortiz who hadn't run out of steam and a Povetkin who had only lost to Wlad. The standard of their opponent's were higher than Wilder's. Unless you want to make a case for Stiverne or, who, Molina?

Fury has fought Wlad, Wilder, Wallin, Chisora.
AJ has fought Wlad, Uysk, Whyte, Ruiz, Pulev, Parker, Povetkin, Takem.

So no, it's not even the best in the division.

 

[Lay]

He’s beat one shit boxer 3 times and Wlad in 6 years.

”One of the all time best”

My thoughts too. His record isn’t that good but gets praised for being some all time great. The Wlad fight was horrendous and beating Wilder who has actively dodged anyone of note and has limited boxing skills isn’t worthy of an all time goat status. He’s good but, I’d like to see some more names on his resume.

 

[Revan]

AJ is 10 times the draw Wilder is. That's not even debatable. So to return to the original point: how the flying feck is Wilder a bigger name than AJ? Wilder has fought, what, 3 names in the top 10. It's a terrible record. Back then we had an unbeaten Ortiz who hadn't run out of steam and a Povetkin who had only lost to Wlad. The standard of their opponent's were higher than Wilder's. Unless you want to make a case for Stiverne or, who, Molina?

Fury has fought Wlad, Wilder, Wallin, Chisora.
AJ has fought Wlad, Uysk, Whyte, Ruiz, Pulev, Parker, Povetkin, Takem.

So no, it's not even the best in the division.

AJ is definitely a bigger draw than Wilder, no questions there. And that fight would have made more money. My point was that Wilder was a bigger fight than any of the AJ fights except Klitscho.

Fury defeated Wlad when he was the lineal champion, on his backyard. AJ defeated Wlad after he had lost, in Wembley. Big big difference.

From fighters Joshua beat, Parker and Whyte are ok, Povetnik was past it, he got destroyed first time by Ruiz, and got embarrassed by Usyk (and I expect the replay to go the exact same way). Good CV, but Klitscho as champ and Wilder as undefeated trumps it.

In any case, I think that Fury easily defeats Joshua. He is the better boxer by a wide margin, and while it is likely that Joshua would drop him, still Fury could easily win 8-10 rounds in such a fight. Probably we will see it though I expect only one of them to have belts.

 

[ivaldo]

AJ is definitely a bigger draw than Wilder, no questions there. And that fight would have made more money. My point was that Wilder was a bigger fight than any of the AJ fights except Klitscho.

Fury defeated Wlad when he was the lineal champion, on his backyard. AJ defeated Wlad after he had lost, in Wembley. Big big difference.

From fighters Joshua beat, Parker and Whyte are ok, Povetnik was past it, he got destroyed first time by Ruiz, and got embarrassed by Usyk (and I expect the replay to go the exact same way). Good CV, but Klitscho as champ and Wilder as undefeated trumps it.

In any case, I think that Fury easily defeats Joshua. He is the better boxer by a wide margin, and while it is likely that Joshua would drop him, still Fury could easily win 8-10 rounds in such a fight. Probably we will see it though I expect only one of them to have belts.

A case can easily be made that the Wlad AJ fought was a better version than the robot Fury fought. Having the title of 'lineal champ' doesn't make someone a better fighter. Being better prepared does.

Wait, so Uysk (a P4P candidate) doesn't count because he beat Joshua, yet Wilder does, even though he got embarrassed 3 times by Fury, and was moments away from getting beaten by Ortiz, who had the stamina of a pensioner? When you weigh up the overall quality of opponent, Fury's record is pretty light. It's a full Chisora with the biggest pedigree on his fight record. That man will fight anyone!

He may well do, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what we're discussing.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Fury is ahead of Tyson all time though and is slowly making his way into the Top 10

I think he’ll need to beat Usyk in an undisputed match and string a few defenses together to be ahead of Tyson. It’s hard to rank, and maybe Fury is higher on a mythical head-to-head list than a rankings but I go something like:

1. Ali 2. Louis 3. Holmes 4. Frazier 5. Foreman 6. Lewis 7. Marciano 8. Holyfield 9. Liston 10. Johnson 11. Dempsey 12. Tyson 13. Wills 14. Fury 15. W. Klit

That’s not a head-to-head list. I do expect Fury to more than likely leapfrog Tyson. Maybe even crack the 10 but he needs to fight.

 

[Revan]

A case can easily be made that the Wlad AJ fought was a better version than the robot Fury fought. Having the title of 'lineal champ' doesn't make someone a better fighter. Being better prepared does.

Wait, so Uysk (a P4P candidate) doesn't count because he beat Joshua, yet Wilder does, even though he got embarrassed 3 times by Fury, and was moments away from getting beaten by Ortiz, who had the stamina of a pensioner? When you weigh up the overall quality of opponent, Fury's record is pretty light. It's a full Chisora with the biggest pedigree on his fight record. That man will fight anyone!

He may well do, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what we're discussing.

Usyk does not count, cause he lost. If Joshua would have beaten Usyk, sure, that would have been great for his CV. However, he got schooled in that fight, so what does that add for Joshua?

Fury beat Wilder 3 times (officially two) and the lineal Wlad in Germany. Joshua beat non-lineal Vlad in Wembley (far less convincing than Fury and almost got knocked out), Whyte (meh), Parker (meh/ok), Povetnik (good but past it) and Ruiz (who was in terrible shape even for his standard) after he got knocked down four times by Ruiz. Wlad of Fury > Wlad of Joshua, and Wilder was better than any of Joshua fights.

Personally, I would rank the difficulty of fights as:

Fury - Wlad
Joshua - Wlad
Joshua - Usyk (but Joshua lost)
Fury - Wilder 1
Fury - Wilder 2
Fury - Wilder 3
Joshua - Ruiz (but Joshua lost)
Joshua - Ruiz 2
Joshua - Povetkin
Joshua - Parker
Fury - Chisora
Joshua - Whyte

 

[Revan]

I think he’ll need to beat Usyk in an undisputed match and string a few defenses together to be ahead of Tyson. It’s hard to rank, and maybe Fury is higher on a mythical head-to-head list than a rankings but I go something like:

1. Ali 2. Louis 3. Holmes 4. Frazier 5. Foreman 6. Lewis 7. Marciano 8. Holyfield 9. Liston 10. Johnson 11. Dempsey 12. Tyson 13. Wills 14. Fury 15. W. Klit

That’s not a head-to-head list. I do expect Fury to more than likely leapfrog Tyson. Maybe even crack the 10 but he needs to fight.

Agree with this. In head to head, I think Fury defeats most of them though. With Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson being particularly ugly mainly cause Fury would have 30+ kilos of advantage and those boxers in modern era would be cruiseweights or even lite-heavyweights.

Honestly, I think that Fury might even defeat Ali. 25 or so kilos advantage over peak Ali, and half a foot taller. Ali is better at everything but with a referee that would be tolerant to a bit of wresting, Ali would get tired by all that weight Fury would put on him.

I think that modern big heavyweights like Lewis, or any of the peak Klitschkos knock Fury out though.

 

[ivaldo]

Usyk does not count, cause he lost. If Joshua would have beaten Usyk, sure, that would have been great for his CV. However, he got schooled in that fight, so what does that add for Joshua?

Fury beat Wilder 3 times (officially two) and the lineal Wlad in Germany. Joshua beat non-lineal Vlad in Wembley (far less convincing than Fury and almost got knocked out), Whyte (meh), Parker (meh/ok), Povetnik (good but past it) and Ruiz (who was in terrible shape even for his standard) after he got knocked down four times by Ruiz. Wlad of Fury > Wlad of Joshua, and Wilder was better than any of Joshua fights.

Personally, I would rank the difficulty of fights as:

Fury - Wlad
Joshua - Wlad
Joshua - Usyk (but Joshua lost)
Fury - Wilder 1
Fury - Wilder 2
Fury - Wilder 3
Joshua - Ruiz (but Joshua lost)
Joshua - Ruiz 2
Joshua - Povetkin
Joshua - Parker
Fury - Chisora
Joshua - Whyte

When we're talking in terms of quality of opponent, it means a awful lot, which was what was original being discussed.

Again, 'lineal champ' means sod all when measuring quality of an opponent. Stop trying to make it something that it's not to justify your point. It's not a power up.

For me:

A motivated and prepared Wlad is better than one accustomed to winning fights easily. We could even bring up Fury's failed drugs test from before the fight and all the shady circumstances around a supposed cover up, but for arguments sake I'm happy to call that one a tie. Uysk is levels about Wilder. Ruiz, Povetkin, Pulev, Parker and Whyte are all markedly better than pretty much anyone else Fury has fought with the exception of Wallin, who without a doubt was a more difficult fight for Fury than Chisora.

Edit:

They both fought Wlad, and an argument can be made either way. Tyson's second biggest name on that list is a pretty poor boxer with a sledgehammer of a right hand, and was only really taken seriously after he had agreed to fight Fury. Uysk is a level or two above him. The rest of their records weighs heavily in AJ's favour.

Just been going through a current top 20 ranked HWs. Fury has fought #4, #18, #19 on that list. AJ has fought #2, #5, #6, #8, #15, #16.

No idea how you can say Fury has fought 'comfortably' the better opponents.

 

[fergies coat]

Usyk does not count, cause he lost. If Joshua would have beaten Usyk, sure, that would have been great for his CV. However, he got schooled in that fight, so what does that add for Joshua?

Fury beat Wilder 3 times (officially two) and the lineal Wlad in Germany. Joshua beat non-lineal Vlad in Wembley (far less convincing than Fury and almost got knocked out), Whyte (meh), Parker (meh/ok), Povetnik (good but past it) and Ruiz (who was in terrible shape even for his standard) after he got knocked down four times by Ruiz. Wlad of Fury > Wlad of Joshua, and Wilder was better than any of Joshua fights.

Personally, I would rank the difficulty of fights as:

Fury - Wlad
Joshua - Wlad
Joshua - Usyk (but Joshua lost)
Fury - Wilder 1
Fury - Wilder 2
Fury - Wilder 3
Joshua - Ruiz (but Joshua lost)
Joshua - Ruiz 2
Joshua - Povetkin
Joshua - Parker
Fury - Chisora
Joshua - Whyte

That's probably about right. Fury is the number one at the minute, but I'd like him to clean up the division a bit more to absolutely cement this, and leave a lasting legacy.

I think the Whyte fight (if he gets past Wallin) would be a stadium fight, and the build up would be great. Then after that the winner of the Usyk AJ fight for undisputed, if he came through them there would be absolutely no doubt then, he'd be the best of this era. he could retire undefeated

 

[fergies coat]

I'd still love to see AJ v Wilder it's still a massive fight. Fury v AJ is still huge too. Fury would be a massive favourite but I don't think he could use the same tactics on AJ that he did on Wilder, Unlike Wilder who only has a right hand AJ has a pretty good inside game and has pretty devastating uppercuts.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

I'd still love to see AJ v Wilder it's still a massive fight. Fury v AJ is still huge too. Fury would be a massive favourite but I don't think he could use the same tactics on AJ that he did on Wilder, Unlike Wilder who only has a right hand AJ has a pretty good inside game and has pretty devastating uppercuts.

I can’t see Joshua beating Usyk, but it would still make sense (and money) for Fury vs. Joshua after Fury fights Usyk. Joshua will deserve a soft touch or two to get back some confidence, assuming he loses again to Fury. It wouldn’t be what it was, but it would sell out a stadium and make a lot of PPV sales.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Of course Wlad said that, because he never liked Fury and was completely embaressed in his own back yard and eventually built a bond with Joshua. Apparently Joshua beat the best Wlad ever but the one Fury beat prior to that was an unmotivated, over the hill Wlad, all a bit silly really.

Anyone that watched the fight or followed Vlad over the years knows that was an off night and he looked a complete shadow of himself don’t want to take away from Fury, you can only beat what is infront of you but the Wlad that showed up to Wembley was miles better and looking like the old Wlad.

Not sure what Povetkin is down anywhere in this conversation, catching Whyte out of the blue recently doesn't change that he's 42 and shouldn't be anywhere near a conversation of who Fury should be fighting to prove himself. Ruiz is being thrown in as well despite barely anybody actually knowing who he was before he beat Joshua.

The reason he’s mentioned is because he’s far better than pretty much everyone Fury has fought other than Wlad. It’s quality of opponent. Once you beat the best then you can go around saying you‘re the best in your generation. Parker, Ruiz, Whyte are better boxers than Wilder hence why they are mentioned because Wilder is actually that crap but gifted with a cracking right hand.

Fury is in my opinion the best heavyweight there is at the moment but you can’t go about saying you’re the best of your generation when you’ve not fought any of the best of your generation to back up your statement.

Anyway I doubt he’ll do more than 2-3 more fights depending on what happens with AJ Uysk

 

[pocco]

You getting upset that I'm offending your precious Fury? see the above and get your head out of your/his arse. Trying to make out Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ is, frankly, embarassing.

"Not even close to being true" He fought 2 of the top 3 fighters, including AJ. I know it hurts you to hear anybody put Wilder up there with AJ but it's true. They're 2 of the 3 fights any fan would have wanted to see. You're talking absolute rubbish. AJ wanted the Wilder fight even before then. I bet you weren't calling him out for trying to fight a guy that couldn't sell out a school hall.

 

[Fortitude]

I think he’ll need to beat Usyk in an undisputed match and string a few defenses together to be ahead of Tyson. It’s hard to rank, and maybe Fury is higher on a mythical head-to-head list than a rankings but I go something like:

1. Ali 2. Louis 3. Holmes 4. Frazier 5. Foreman 6. Lewis 7. Marciano 8. Holyfield 9. Liston 10. Johnson 11. Dempsey 12. Tyson 13. Wills 14. Fury 15. W. Klit

That’s not a head-to-head list. I do expect Fury to more than likely leapfrog Tyson. Maybe even crack the 10 but he needs to fight.

You've gone to 15 and still no Bowe, really? Is your list based on ability or achievement? Peak Bowe is a huge threat in the division - I'm guessing the longevity is your issue with him?

 

[pocco]

Anyone that watched the fight or followed Vlad over the years knows that was an off night and he looked a complete shadow of himself don’t want to take away from Fury, you can only beat what is infront of you but the Wlad that showed up to Wembley was miles better and looking like the old Wlad.

Styles make fights. Fury just put on his boxing head that night and completely nullified him. Anybody could have told you AJ was a much better opponent for Vlad.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Styles make fights. Fury just put on his boxing head that night and completely nullified him. Anybody could have told you AJ was a much better opponent for Vlad.

Indeed but that’s not what we are speaking about, more so his lack of conviction. Wlad looked sharper, in better shape and had better movement at Wembley. He looked rejuvenated after having looked stale and bored for a good few years.

Its still Wlad so it’s a great scalp no matter what condition he was in, but what most seem to be taking issue with is this idea that Fury is the best of his generation or one of the best of all time. If he wants to claim he’s the best of his generation he’s needs a few more quality names on his record for me.

 

[pocco]

Indeed but that’s not what we are speaking about, more so his lack of conviction. Wlad looked sharper, in better shape and had better movement at Wembley. He looked rejuvenated after having looked stale and bored for a good few years.

I think it's very much a factor though and I don't buy into the argument you and others try to make. He lacked conviction because he was nullified, he couldn't put a glove on Fury and his usual style just didn't work. He was beaten to the jab and just generally outboxed all night.

He hated Fury and you could tell it absolutely pained him to lose to him. Why on earth anybody wouldn't believe he wasn't 100% up for that fight is doing him a disservice. Personally I think he looked bad because Fury made him look bad. Much like Fury Vs Wilder 1 minus the knockdowns. Fury boxed brilliantly that night.

At least Wlad had some respectability in the immediate aftermath, before he continued his spat with Fury and came across as completely bitter.

.
Klitschko said at his post-fight press conference: “Today was not a good night for me.

“I wish there would be more clean shots that I could land, I couldn’t find the right distance to land the shots.

“Tyson was quick with his hands, his body movement and head movement – I couldn’t land the right punches.

“I congratulate him tonight, he won the fight.”

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Fury beats AJ easily for me. Its like putting up an amateur (AJ) vs a professional (Fury), he hits harder than Ruiz and Usyk. AJ is probably the most over hyped of all the HWs, he hasnt got the boxing ability to trouble Fury. I can see Wilder retiring AJ, AJ hates being hit as we saw against both Ruiz and Usyk, its like once hes hit he forgets how to do even the basics.

As good as Fury is, he doesnt beat a peak Tyson Lewis Ali Bowe Foreman. Id even say he wouldnt beat a peak Haye. The heavyweights around now are all garbage except for Fury and maybe Usyk.

 

[ivaldo]

"Not even close to being true" He fought 2 of the top 3 fighters, including AJ. I know it hurts you to hear anybody put Wilder up there with AJ but it's true. They're 2 of the 3 fights any fan would have wanted to see. You're talking absolute rubbish. AJ wanted the Wilder fight even before then. I bet you weren't calling him out for trying to fight a guy that couldn't sell out a school hall.

Because it isn't? AJ was unquestionably a bigger fight than Wilder. It's ridiculous you're still trying to defend this stance just to try and score a point or two. Grow up.

My position on Wilder has never changed. His technique was and still is terrible, his record is even worse, and his pull as a fighter was basically nonexistent before he fought Fury. That's beyond contestation, and your desperation to prove otherwise on the back of having an irrational dislike for AJ is more than a little sad. But please, feel free to justify how the two fights would he comparable. It should be entertaining.

 

[JP77]

Parker

A case can easily be made that the Wlad AJ fought was a better version than the robot Fury fought. Having the title of 'lineal champ' doesn't make someone a better fighter. Being better prepared does.

Wait, so Uysk (a P4P candidate) doesn't count because he beat Joshua, yet Wilder does, even though he got embarrassed 3 times by Fury, and was moments away from getting beaten by Ortiz, who had the stamina of a pensioner? When you weigh up the overall quality of opponent, Fury's record is pretty light. It's a full Chisora with the biggest pedigree on his fight record. That man will fight anyone!

He may well do, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what we're discussing.

On no planet would Joseph Parker vs Fury have been a bigger fight than Wilder vs Fury. I don't care about your idea that Wilder couldn't sell out a school hall. People were hyped for Fury against Wilder in the first and second fight. And even though we all believed Fury would smash him in the third, it garnered great interest and was massively talked about. It's massively unlikely Parker vs Fury would have had anywhere near the same interest. Whyte vs Fury would be built great because they would both talk the shit out of that fight and hype it but let's not act like Whyte is some huge name, he's known in the UK, that doesn't make him a household name.

Anyone that watched the fight or followed Vlad over the years knows that was an off night and he looked a complete shadow of himself don’t want to take away from Fury, you can only beat what is infront of you but the Wlad that showed up to Wembley was miles better and looking like the old Wlad.


The reason he’s mentioned is because he’s far better than pretty much everyone Fury has fought other than Wlad. It’s quality of opponent. Once you beat the best then you can go around saying you‘re the best in your generation. Parker, Ruiz, Whyte are better boxers than Wilder hence why they are mentioned because Wilder is actually that crap but gifted with a cracking right hand.

Fury is in my opinion the best heavyweight there is at the moment but you can’t go about saying you’re the best of your generation when you’ve not fought any of the best of your generation to back up your statement.

Anyway I doubt he’ll do more than 2-3 more fights depending on what happens with AJ Uysk

Easy to say this to favour an arguement. The likely truth is that Fury/Wlad and Wlad/Joshua were two massively different stylistic fights. Wlad could open up and go at it against Joshua who has much worst defence than Fury and is a completely different style, it opened it up to be a much more entertaining fight that made Wlad LOOK more motivated and better against Joshua. He didn't get to do that against Fury because Fury went in there with a different style and out boxed him, albeit in a much less entertaining fight, and made him look pretty average. It probably doesn't help that Wlad doesn't like Fury at all but has a bond with Joshua, quite easy for certain fans and people to act like the Wlad that Joshua fought was a better more motivated fighter to try to discredit what Fury did. Fury dominated and beat Wlad in his own back yard while Joshua struggled massively and tbh would have likely been finished off had Wlad not been breathing out of his ass when he was close to down and out.

And please can we stop talking about guys like Povetkin like they're former killers when they aren't. How can we use Povetkin, who Joshua fought when he was 39 years old ffs but discredit Wilder for beating Ortiz who was also 39 at the time? Ortiz looked an absolute killer that not many people wanted to fight as well but Povetkin is for some reason held up higher because he's more known to UK fans because he's fought Joshua and Whyte and sparked out David Price.

The over the top shitting on Wilder by one or two on here is silly. Comes across as an absolute tit don't get me wrong and technically he just doesn't look very good but if he was that shit he certainly wouldn't have made it to where he did, wouldn't have beaten Ortiz and come back from the death in that one to smash him and wouldn't have fought Fury THREE times and been very unlucky not to have beaten him once (Fury dominated most of the first fight but that shot that put him down would have finished most). We can all say Fury battered him but he had Fury down in the first which somehow he got up from and had him down twice in the third, not bad for an apparently shit fighter doing that to one regarded as the best heavyweight in the world today is it? Technically he may not be very good at all but he has weapons in his locker that win him fights and it'd be silly to act like he wouldn't be a danger against any of these heavyweights TBH.

 

[ivaldo]

On no planet would Joseph Parker vs Fury have been a bigger fight than Wilder vs Fury. I don't care about your idea that Wilder couldn't sell out a school hall. People were hyped for Fury against Wilder in the first and second fight. And even though we all believed Fury would smash him in the third, it garnered great interest and was massively talked about. It's massively unlikely Parker vs Fury would have had anywhere near the same interest. Whyte vs Fury would be built great because they would both talk the shit out of that fight and hype it but let's not act like Whyte is some huge name, he's known in the UK, that doesn't make him a household name.

Fine, happy to retract that. I was being slightly facetious with it anyway.

It still doesn't make it close to the biggest fight he could've taken. It's not an 'idea,' just take a gander at his woeful attendence figures. It's not often Fury's and AJ's camp, but they were unified in their mocking of Wilder's lack of pull. Prior to the Wilder/Fury fight was made you can definitely make the case he was as well known as Wilder.

its absolutely bonkers to even entertain the possibility that Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ. I'm baffled why this is even being debated.

 

[cyberman]

Fine, happy to retract that. I was being slightly facetious with it anyway.

It still doesn't make it close to the biggest fight he could've taken. It's not an 'idea,' just take a gander at his woeful attendence figures. It's not often Fury's and AJ's camp, but they were unified in their mocking of Wilder's lack of pull. Prior to the Wilder/Fury fight was made you can definitely make the case he was as well known as Wilder.

its absolutely bonkers to even entertain the possibility that Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ. I'm baffled why this is even being debated.

Exactly this. It was a well known fact that Fury was the draw v Wilder in the first fight. He couldn’t even walk down the street without being recognised and Wilder could

 

[JP77]

Fine, happy to retract that. I was being slightly facetious with it anyway.

It still doesn't make it close to the biggest fight he could've taken. It's not an 'idea,' just take a gander at his woeful attendence figures. It's not often Fury's and AJ's camp, but they were unified in their mocking of Wilder's lack of pull. Prior to the Wilder/Fury fight was made you can definitely make the case he was as well known as Wilder.

its absolutely bonkers to even entertain the possibility that Wilder was a bigger fight than AJ. I'm baffled why this is even being debated.

I'm certainly not debating that mate, Fury/AJ IMO is the biggest fight that can be made in the division in terms of both the actual fight itself and the numbers it would draw. I think AJ/Wilder would do brilliantly as well, numbers wise more down to AJ of course. Wilder on his own isn't a huge draw but when you put him in there with a Fury or Joshua it's one of the biggest fights you can make in the heavyweight divison. For the record I personally wasn't talking just numbers either but an overall package of the fight.

John Fury was speaking on it and I think he's right in what he said, it's going to be tough for Fury to now get up for fights like a Whyte or Parker. Whyte at a very push but I think realistically if you want a properly motivated Fury at his absolute best he needs to be fighting AJ or Usyk. The days of him facing anybody like Parker, Povetkin etc are long gone IMO. He fought Wallin etc because he had been out for song long and needed to rebuild himself, now he's done that it needs to be huge fights or massive challenges and there's just not that many left. Like I said though as much as I want to see him against Joshua, I'd be well up for him fighting Whyte because the build up would be brilliant and the fight would be too and it'd be great to see Fury fighting back in the UK again.

 

[ivaldo]

I'm certainly not debating that mate, Fury/AJ IMO is the biggest fight that can be made in the division in terms of both the actual fight itself and the numbers it would draw. I think AJ/Wilder would do brilliantly as well, numbers wise more down to AJ of course. Wilder on his own isn't a huge draw but when you put him in there with a Fury or Joshua it's one of the biggest fights you can make in the heavyweight divison. For the record I personally wasn't talking just numbers either but an overall package of the fight.

John Fury was speaking on it and I think he's right in what he said, it's going to be tough for Fury to now get up for fights like a Whyte or Parker. Whyte at a very push but I think realistically if you want a properly motivated Fury at his absolute best he needs to be fighting AJ or Usyk. The days of him facing anybody like Parker, Povetkin etc are long gone IMO. He fought Wallin etc because he had been out for song long and needed to rebuild himself, now he's done that it needs to be huge fights or massive challenges and there's just not that many left. Like I said though as much as I want to see him against Joshua, I'd be well up for him fighting Whyte because the build up would be brilliant and the fight would be too and it'd be great to see Fury fighting back in the UK again.

AJ and Fury are far and away the biggest pulls in the division. Uysk is going to be up there now and Wilder, despite being thoroughly outclassed 3 times by Fury, in terms of credibility and draw he has benefited massively for it.

I agree with Parker. If AJ can outbox him then Fury can do it at a canter. Whyte is a dangerous opponent now though and I think he would be worth the effort. Whether Fury can get himself up for it though is another matter.

To me, it still demonstrates the dearth in talent the division has.

 

[NextSeason]

Never seen so much activity in this thread, great to see.

 

[Gringo]

If you haven't got a belt, Tyson isn't interested. We were one AJ victory away from the unification