£450m later and our squad looks as poor as ever. Are we any closer in this project to becoming "the best transitional team in the world"? No, obviously not. Rip it up and start again with competent people in place
The reshaping of the squad since EtH joined
- Thread starter The Corinthian
- Start date
It's been appalling really. A squad that was crying out for some physicality and he's added next to nothing on that front.
What's funny?
Nothing but truth in that post. In early August that is.
If we don't get top 4 or win the FA cup this season the he drops below Jose and Ole.
The squad has certainly been reshaped, there's no denying that. Job done for ETH, I guess?
Some good exits then we undid it with madness in the transfer market.
You were right about this yet again and predictably, people continue to shit on you for it
We‘ve been hampered by our inability to shift players: McTominay, Maguire, Sancho.
We are halfway a reshaping at best: some of the signings we made were temporary stop gaps: Casemiro, Eriksen and Evans.
Succesfull additions to date to fit a modern pro-active playstyle (disregarding injuries): Martinez, Onana, Højlund, Malacia. Mount‘s value to the squad tbd and Antony is probably a dud. He‘s a good squad player at best.
With Mainoo and Garnacho breaking through things aren‘t as bad as people make out, while things are still shiit especially with the injuries suffered.
We need new cb‘s, a physical dm, a replacement for McT, a replacement for Martial and apparently also a left back.
Without a fast cb and a fit Martinez, and a physical dm we aren‘t playing a high line. It is absolutely essential we get that done this summer.
We are halfway a reshaping at best: some of the signings we made were temporary stop gaps: Casemiro, Eriksen and Evans.
Succesfull additions to date to fit a modern pro-active playstyle (disregarding injuries): Martinez, Onana, Højlund, Malacia. Mount‘s value to the squad tbd and Antony is probably a dud. He‘s a good squad player at best.
With Mainoo and Garnacho breaking through things aren‘t as bad as people make out, while things are still shiit especially with the injuries suffered.
We need new cb‘s, a physical dm, a replacement for McT, a replacement for Martial and apparently also a left back.
Without a fast cb and a fit Martinez, and a physical dm we aren‘t playing a high line. It is absolutely essential we get that done this summer.
Which really shows the issues we’ve had. A manager knows they’re fighting to save themselves every season, you offer Ole, Jose, ETH players like Cavani, Varane, Casemiro, Matic, Ibra, Sanchez, Ronaldo etc. they aren’t going to say ‘no’ because they don’t care what the club pays them in salary and they live game to game.
There has to be someone above saying ‘no’ and planning mid to long term.
Rasmus Casemiro and Martinez are basically the most physical players in our team and Antony is at least a really hard worker, same with Mount, one of the hardest pressing players in the league. Onana is playing a different sport to DDG when it comes to defending his area and ball to feet. The bolded players have been out for at least half a season each
Not quite enough though. I went through the starting lineups of all our defeats in the league this season and we often have five or six (in one example eight) players starting who have been here for quite a long time, 5 years or more. Obviously not all of those players are worth getting rid of but how many more chances do some of them deserve?
I do hope the INEOS takeover will mean they make some big decisions outside of chopping and changing managers.
I do hope the INEOS takeover will mean they make some big decisions outside of chopping and changing managers.
The 2022 window absolutely destroyed us. Such a massive waste of resources. We paid £60m for 6 months of world class performances from Casemiro and £90m for 3 months of half decent performances.
This thread has become “rinse and repeat” fodder
Yeah those three really need to go, but we've now got to consider adding to that list:
1. Case (A stop gap as you've said, but we need someone younger for the long term)
2. Varane (Injuries)
3. Shaw (Injuries)
4. Rashford (Doesn't fit how we want to play)
So that's 4 starters right there. Then we've got to get rid of/replace Maguire, Mctominay, Erikson, Antony, Amrabat, Sancho, Martial, Wan Bissaka. So that's 8 fringe players. I think maybe players like Alvaro Carreras, Amad, Hannibal, Kambwala and Collyer can fill those gaps along with a couple from the U-18s as squad players, but we'd need a few readymade squad options who will do a job defence in especially.
You look at a recipe for success (City) vs us -
- In defence (Ake, Stones, Akanji, Walker, Gvardiol, Lewis, Gomez) - 5 high quality players and 2 very good young players for 4 positions. We have 9 players (Lisandro, Varane, Dalot, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Malacia, Evans). Martinez and Malacia could be a temporary blip with injuries and Dalot is good enough let's say but the remaining 6 are just too injury prone/old/not good enough. So that for me is problem number 1 that we really need to sort out.
- In central midfield (Rodri, Bernardo, KDB, Nunes, Kovacic) - 5 high quality players for 3 spots. Here we have 6 players (Bruno, Mount, Case, Mainoo, Mctom, Amrabat, Erikson) - for a start we need to replace Case for a defensive midfielder with legs and we need talented squad options in place of McTom, Amrabat and Erikson.
- In attack (Haaland, Grealish, Foden, Alvarez, Doku, Bobb) - at least 4 high quality players and 2 more very promising players for 3 spots. We've got Hojlund, Rashford, Garna, Martial, Sancho, Antony here - the 3 squad players (and Rashy to an extent) of course is the problem here.
This summer ('24):
If we sell off Rashford (60M as rumoured - PSG), Mctominay (25M - Newcastle maybe), Maguire (25M - West Ham or even Chelsea), Casemiro (40 M - Saudi), Varane (30M - PSG maybe?) and Greenwood (20M to Barca), Lindelof (20M to a club like Inter), Wan Bissaka (20M) that is a good 340M raised (together with our 100M rumoured budget this summer) to get us:
- 2 CDMs - I quite like Varela at Porto and I think we could broker a little deal for Christensen at Barca if Greenwood goes the other way (+ we have agent Rasmus)
- A starting LW/RW
- 2 CBs - No idea who'd be the starter in place of Varane, I also like Van Hecke over Branthwaite as a backup.
- and backup ST.
- We can also promote Alvaro Carreras to the first team, he looks solid at Benfica.
- We could potentially sell off Hannibal if he's not going to be playing tbh, Amad's future needs to be discussed as well - if he's not playing sell him too and get at least a couple of loanees.
Summer of '25:
- We can hopefully offload Sancho after another season at Dortmund to a club like Bayern/PSG.
- We could look at swapping out Bruno Fernandes for someone like Wirtz,
- We could swap out Shaw (He would work for Bayern in a slower league) for someone younger (or stick with Carreras if he has a breakout season).
- We can hopefully sell Antony + Amad (if he's not already gone) as well.
- We can look at bringing in a couple of youth players for centre midfield and wings - That U18 team looks special and I can see a couple of those players coming through in the next two years or so.
- We can look at swapping out 1 or 2 other players in the squad for better options.
Totally agree. This squad is mentally and physically so weak.
still think people are too critical of the transfer business. antony was obviously an absurd fee, but onana, martinez, hojlund, casemiro are all good players and better than what we had. malacia was a cheap left back sub, and mount may well prove to be a PL proven very good player for us. So Antony is an outlier. The fact is the overhaul is just bigger than what weve done so far. and if we're going to be succesful in the next couple of years id fully expect onana, martinez, mount, hojlund to be part of it. Casemiro may have aged out. Get more players in with personalities like martinez, casemiro, hojlund and I'll be happy.
None of this excuses this season being so poor of course. Injuries are a fair excuse to the degree that i think we'd be solidly in top 4 without the extent weve had, but we would have all liked to see a more definitve style in place. so ten hag has that to answer for, but i think the transfers themselves have generally been good - antony aside, and the casemiro fee was mismanaged by chasing de jong for so long.
None of this excuses this season being so poor of course. Injuries are a fair excuse to the degree that i think we'd be solidly in top 4 without the extent weve had, but we would have all liked to see a more definitve style in place. so ten hag has that to answer for, but i think the transfers themselves have generally been good - antony aside, and the casemiro fee was mismanaged by chasing de jong for so long.
Agreed, I think Antony is the real miss and we could've gone for someone more long term compared to Case. I support ETH but like yourself, I'd like to see a definitive style even if we end 6th this season - I think ETH needs to show that this season without excuses (Today is a perfect opportunity with players back for Liverpool), and most definitely the next season (if he gets to see out his contract).
Yeah, I think when it comes to replacing him, Ineos need to be sure the right candidate is there. Alonso will likely go to liverpool, and Amorim, Potter, Inzaghi might all be tempting- but are they any less of a risk than another year with ten hag, especially if Ineos are taking charge of recruitment anyway. My gut is give him another season, working in a club that isn't in such a state (We forget the extent of problems he's had in a short time), but yeah, next season would be last chance.
In his favour are Mainoo, Hojlund, Garnacho. He's undoubtedly improved Dalot, and wan bissaka for that matter, and martinez is an excellent player. Not a popular opinion but i think onana is too. Those players could be part of the type of team we want to see here, so another window, well managed, could big a big step.
Nonsense, the overhaul of the wage structure and squad by ETH has been really good.
When everyone is fit you can see what he is trying to do and it works.
All teams have to deal with injury, sure, but Klopp went through a few years where if he didn’t have his best 11 he looked clueless. Over the years he kept building until his entire squad was of a standard and a style he could work with.
United must have the most miserable, entitled, whiney fanbase in the world. We spent 10+ years getting into a position where our wage structure was a disgrace, our squad was a joke and top 7 was a normal season.
Since then our competition constantly strengthened and new threats (i.e. Newcastle and for this year Villa) have emerged. We are making up ground in a number of areas, finally, but anyone expecting it to be done in two years without huge luck on injuries should give up football tbh.
Yeah I don't see how changing the manager fixes our short term problems either, Alonso (regardless of whether he wants the United job/not) who is currently the best shout out of that lot is still a risk given he's only had 1 season at the top in Bundesliga - A season ending 6th under him and we're back to square one on the manager debate we keep on reinforcing player power
If recruitment is mostly handled by the structure around the manager (the manager of course needs to be part of the process too), we'd have no problem getting rid of the manager even mid season if he's not cutting it for us in terms of the coaching/tactics - Which is where we should get to as a club.Onana being a good player is not an unpopular opinion at all imo, he wasn't a Ballon D'Or nominee last year and a big part of that Inter team putting in the performances he put in for us earlier this season - He's made his mistakes which can't be excused but it's just natural for us blow our issues out of proportion when things are not going too well. It's not unrealistic at all to see a good United team built around Onana, Martinez, Shaw, Dalot, Mainoo, Bruno, Mount, Hojlund and Garnacho - Rashford as well can fall into that category because we all know he's capable and want him to do well.
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Martinez, Rasmus are excellent signings. Eriksen was a good signing being a free transfer. Jury is out on Mount and Onana, the latter especially has stabilised but needs to make up for the terrible start. Malacia is a basic backup signing. Casemiro was a decent signing but for the price, wages and second season I think will end up a disappointing signing. Antony is a poor signing based on the price. Overall his record is probably no worse or better than the majority of managers.
You can see how massive the task is we are facing. As you say it depends a whole lot on selling players.
This is the key bit for me. I think it's fair to think that if we're competitive again in the next 3 years (not the very best but finally competing) then onana, dalot, martinez, mainoo, garnacho, hojlund could all be central to any team that does it. I'd agree with bruno but many wont, and yes rashford, mount and shaw could be considered too, but from the initial list, those are all players ten hag should get credit for.Yeah I don't see how changing the manager fixes our short term problems either, Alonso (regardless of whether he wants the United job/not) who is currently the best shout out of that lot is still a risk given he's only had 1 season at the top in Bundesliga - A season ending 6th under him and we're back to square one on the manager debate we keep on reinforcing player power
Onana being a good player is not an unpopular opinion at all imo, he wasn't a Ballon D'Or nominee last year and a big part of that Inter team putting in the performances he put in for us earlier this season - He's made his mistakes which can't be excused but it's just natural for us blow our issues out of proportion when things are not going too well. It's not unrealistic at all to see a good United team built around Onana, Martinez, Shaw, Dalot, Mainoo, Bruno, Mount, Hojlund and Garnacho - Rashford as well can fall into that category because we all know he's capable and want him to do well.
Lets say we recruit well this summer: Onana, Dalot, CB, Martinez, LB, Mainoo, CM, Fernandes, Garnacho, Hojlund, LW, those 4 key positions could change a huge amount. And you'd have a strong bench and rotation too with some of the older players playing less. That would be post 3 summer windows for ten hag, which is the least the squad needed.
Based on what? Casemiro and Antony are on at least £500k a week between them and are next to worthless to us going forward.
All things considered, we have replaced big chunk of the squad, spent 450million and yet we're entering another transfer window with a need of completely new midfield.
A lot will depend if we can ship Casemiro, Eriksen, maybe Varane AND replace them. If somehow we can sort out Rashford situation, then we're only stuck with Antony and the wage structure looks much better (I assume the likes of Sancho and Amrabat won't be here next season).
We need a full scale player clear out. A full scale commision to a footballing direction. So much so that if the manager himself doesn't live up to the remit he can join in the exodus.
Like the saying goes its never as bad as you think...I'd hope the new hires in the background can tweak a few things and get the squad more balanced.
Mainoo, Holland and Garnacho should give everyone at the club a boost.
Mainoo, Holland and Garnacho should give everyone at the club a boost.
Right now the biggest issue is the weak spine in our squad. We need a stable cb pair plus physically reliable back up. A stable, talented yet interchangeable set of 4 Deep midfielders and a reliable back up striker with the same physical traits as Rasmus.
Yeah and of course being smart with our buys (i.e. not paying ludicrous amounts and messing up our budget) - 8 (excluding free transfer exits) players out and 6 players in is like a minimum at this point. Absolutely a massive task but if we want to be best in class, we have to see it as doable and just get on with it.
Yeah the initial list is certainly a group any manager would like to have. Shaw, Rashford and Bruno are added to it at least for the short-medium term because we've got to look at our priorities first. I have a love-hate relationship with Bruno as any United fan haha, but he's maybe a problem that we could address in 2025/26?
I know you prefer a LB this summer and Shaw is a concern with his injuries, but I'm happy to give him one more season mainly to see how good Alvaro is (and because I feel selling Shaw in '25 after a hopefully injury free season could get us a bit more value for him) - I'd definitely sell Shaw in 2025 though.
Love Rashford but it might be best for him and the club to part ways this summer or 2025 latest - he needs to move to a team that suits him more, and we need a player that suits us more.
Haven't yet seen enough of Mount to discount him either so he's in that list for the time being.
It's not all doom and gloom, we just need a few good first teamers that suit our style (with the right age profile and wages) and a few competent squad players (that suit our style - McTom, Maguire etc. are not bad players, they're just not for us which is why I think we can get good value for some of our squad players if we negotiate early and correctly) for key positions - That can surely be achieved without spending another billion pounds, certainly under the stewardship of a good football operations setup.
So one David De Gea and half a Jadon Sancho? Or one past it, sulking Ronaldo? Unlike most of the players we've shipped in recent years there'd for sure be suitors for both of them at the right price too, plus Casemiro is still a good player even if he's not really up to the one man midfield role he's been given.
Just think of most of our recent big name departures. Ronaldo - free, Pogba -free, Sanchez - free, ibra - free, Cavani - free, Matic - free, Mata - free, Bailly and Rojo - I assume free(?), soon to add Martial - free. Even your flops need to have resale value and I think most of our current ones do. We all despised Di Maria and Lukaku but at least they were still good enough to get most of our money back.
I think people also underestimate the mess we were in at the beginning of last season too thanks to the Glazers dithering before the panic buying. Casemiro and Antony definitely helped arrest the slide.
None of that had anything to do with Ten Hag shaping the squad though.
Reshaping of the squad. Lets face it bar an injury plagued Martinez, the exit door is looming or jury very much out for ever signing he made in the first season just as it was for the loands he made come last summer, that isnt progression.
As for this season, Onana is improving but too early to judge, Hoijlund similar really though he looks a player and cant judge Mount as he hasnt played but that is telligni itself....but always found it such an odd signing.
But as of yet, there have been two successful youngster come through in two seasons which is probably more than so far successful signings. So yes we have had big injury problems as have many sides, yes there was some rebuild....but it really isnt happening and the football has actually regressed.
Hate to us them as an example, but look at Liverpool, during the summer there was a lot of talk of them falling with the ageing midfield, loss of other attacking players....they went out and bought the right players and are back in the hunt for trophies.
We have continued to get it wrong, we are barring the youngsters no further on as a side come the summer than we were before he came
As for this season, Onana is improving but too early to judge, Hoijlund similar really though he looks a player and cant judge Mount as he hasnt played but that is telligni itself....but always found it such an odd signing.
But as of yet, there have been two successful youngster come through in two seasons which is probably more than so far successful signings. So yes we have had big injury problems as have many sides, yes there was some rebuild....but it really isnt happening and the football has actually regressed.
Hate to us them as an example, but look at Liverpool, during the summer there was a lot of talk of them falling with the ageing midfield, loss of other attacking players....they went out and bought the right players and are back in the hunt for trophies.
We have continued to get it wrong, we are barring the youngsters no further on as a side come the summer than we were before he came