Also for a former investment banker he was absolutely horrible in negotiating and closing deals. Shouting to everyone that you have a ton of money didnt help either. Other clubs saw us as a cash cow waiting to be milked dry. Random people working in a market has better bargaining and haggling skills compared to him.
The reshaping of the squad since EtH joined
- Thread starter The Corinthian
- Start date
The biggest style shifts have been van Gaal to Mourinho and Ole to ten Hag. If Woodward had stayed the course and replaced van Gaal with another possession style manager we probably would have been better off. Instead he was laser focused on Mourinho after he was sacked by Chelsea because Mourinho had one of the biggest reputations in football.
This is why the "manager overindulgence" criticism of the transfers since ETH arrived doesn't make sense. We haven't been buying players who fit only some strange football niche tactics only employed by EtH and they're all younger players (besides Casemiro and Eriksen, who we needed to come straight in and start). This "philosophical continuity" thing only really becomes a problem if EtH leaves and is replaced with some bus driving dinosaur, which only happened before because Woodward's football homework was always just reading headlines.
Yes, this is more or less my thinking as well. It may or may not work out but from a supporter's perspective, the transfer moves generally make sense.
I don't understand what that has to do with what I said? It's the manager/coaches jobs to improve the players, it's literally what they get paid to do. His failings were his selection of manager's and his overindulgence of said managers. Do you blame the CEO of McDonalds for a cooks inability to clean the kitchen or make a burger? No, you blame the manager, who is the direct superior. If Manchester United was going bankrupt like Enron, you can absolutely blame the CEO as their decisions led to the bankruptcy.
One would think you believe I said that Woodward holds no part in our failings over the last 10 years. I never said such a thing, in fact I think he played the biggest role because of his refusal to set up a proper structure on the footballing side of things and instead relying on the advice of one person (the manager). People always make it seem like Woodward was going out scouting players and signing them over the head of the manager whereas it is far more likely that he deferred completely to the managers, other than the instance with Mourinho getting rid of Martial/Pogba and signing Maguire. Those two instances are the only ones we actually know of where he stepped in over the manager. We know from @Adnan that our managers were using their own personal scouts instead of relying on the scouting team.
Nobody said he wasn't a disaster? Do people not read posts before they reply? Skills replied to me where I said he wasn't responsible for players declining after joining, but he was responsible for his managerial appointments and overindulgence to managers. You also seem to think that Woodward was the one negotiating transfers? It's been widely reported that it was Matt Judge who did the negotiating.
It's great to point out that someone was a disaster at the club however, I think you should at least blame them for the things they actually did. He signed the managers and signed off on the deals for the players the managers wanted. Our managers scouted the players and Judge did the negotiating. That's how things used to get done at the club.
But he literally didn't do that though. It was Matt Judge who did the negotiating. Again, we should all say how much of a disaster Woodward was for United, but we don't need to make up faults to do that. It's been widely reported what Woodward did and who he deferred to. I would say though, one person who skates by without criticism is David Gill. He was a major reason behind our decline by doing absolutely no planning for Fergie's retirement, and then getting out of dodge when Fergie retired. That left us with Moyes who was inexperienced at the top level having to come into the club when Woodward was taking over, who again had no experience at a football club in this capacity. It was a recipe for disaster.
We needed Mourinho though. It was only during Mourinho's time that the Glazers seemed to take any kind of interest in the club. I think it also lead us towards the Super League fiasco which ended Woodward's tenure. Had we gotten a great manager in after LVG, it would only have papered over the cracks whereas today we actually have a functioning footballing arm.
IIRC Judge was handed over the reign on player negotiations sometime around 2016-17 and it was implied that Woodward was fully responsible prior that. Also Judge as a former IB was also as horrible as his boss.
This is true same summer as when Mourinho started. I think they were both terrible at what they did. Funnily enough however, if you go back and look at the transfers made pre-Judge, they weren't insane fees at the time. Once Judge was leading the negotiations it all went downhill. We also stopped being able to sell players after that as well.
I'll just leave this here about Matt Judge from last year. The quotes are from The Athletic via the Daily Mail.
"Judge's departure was met by a positive reaction from United supporters, and The Athletic have also reported that this was 'partly echoed' inside the Old Trafford walls"
"A number of sources have told the publication that Judge is largely responsible for United's failed, scattergun approach to spending over the past decade."
"With him at the helm, the club missed out on signing Erling Haaland and Jude Bellingham, despite them being well-placed to seal deals for both players."
"They also failed to sign Joao Cancelo, who went on to join Manchester City."
"But despite this, Woodward insisted that Judge's experience of handling banking deals made him the perfect candidate to deal with the wild world of football."
"Intriguingly, he was also described as having a good poker face."
"United are expected to overhaul their scouting network this summer, having confirmed that Jim Lawlor and Marcel Bout left earlier this month"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ion-Ed-Woodward-left-guidance-diminished.html
Must admit, the arms race in the league, we most likely will be challenging for top four this year (and that might be a struggle).
No CF, other teams spending huge money on decent players.
No CF, other teams spending huge money on decent players.
Just his 2nd season and he's doing an incredible job. Added 3 players in 3 positions where needed, might add 2 more and getting rid of deadwood finally.
Eth has applied modern methods, but throughout the club, not just on the training ground. When LFC went all "modern" on us with the appointment of klopp, we should have taken notice. Bloody good clear out, followed by the correct players being bought, and modern tactics.
I think everyone need to brace themselves for the team possibly finishing 5-6-7th depending on the strength of the opposition and the usual unforeseen circumstances.
I know it's a little trite to say but true nonetheless : The most important thing is seeing the team play improve, results will flow from there.
The whiplash against ten Hag, irrespective of the actual quality of work put in, can be seen coming a mile away. Not getting a CL qualification would be less than ideal but it could happen.
If we finish 5th, 6th or 7th, that would be a disaster.
If the team's play improve, the results should improve too. Going backwards would be awful.
Finishing fifth isn’t unrealistic.
The squad still needs some serious work, and we’re an injury or two to key players away from being completely fecked, no matter the manager.
I think so too but I get the distinct feeling people are working themselves up preemptively for very high expectations. There's at least 4 teams in the same tier plus a couple that may get into the mix. And City of course, not even counting them.
I think people are underestimating how damaging and incompetent the likes of Woodward, Judge, and a few others are. That was why there was such a massive and comprehensive restructuring at board level when we finally got rid of them. The proof is in the pudding - we're now able to get players out of the club in a shorter timeframe, get our targets over the line, as well as having a structure in place that allows the manager, technical director and DoF all pulling in the same direction to the same goal.
We were used as a cash cow for the likes of these cretins but at least it's behind us now.
We were used as a cash cow for the likes of these cretins but at least it's behind us now.
If you can anticipate a disaster you need to make plans to mitigate or completely avoid, to me the eventuality of finishing 5th, 6th or 7th would be disastrous. We have City who are a super team and beyond us but we can outcompete and outspend the rest. This season we have spent circa £160m on top of the £200m or so we spent last term on a 6th placed team that had Varane, Shaw, Sancho, Rashford and Fernandez.
It comes down to choices made and poor planning. Suppose we struggle in midfield having signed a No. 10 and then expecting them to seamlessly transition into a hybrid 8/10 partnered to Bruno Fernandes and an ageing Casemiro. It was a choice we consciously made and this was done in a season where Liverpool got Mac Allister for £35m. Again, if we go into the season without a viable Casemiro alternate having declined £30m from West Ham for Scot then it would be down to decisions we would have made of our volition.
The forward line remains dodgy; we have a 20 year old project, a Sancho who is a shadow of his Dortmund years, Antony whose issues we all know and our two of the best forwards excel in one position. We need an older striker to cover Rasmus' inevitable growing pains. If we don't up our game then we will pay in the season, that much is clear and if Murtough and ETH let us walk into a disaster when they could have avoided it then it's on them and they can be held accountable for such a failure.
Yeah, I agree, so long as we don't serve up crap football and wilt like babies on the pitch, I don't mind.
He's doing a fantastic job all around. There were a lot of high wage players that have been sold or let go over the past two summers/January, and this is setting us up nicely for better transfer markets in the future.
Full faith in ETH, finally a great leader!
Full faith in ETH, finally a great leader!
I agree. I think we could show lots of progress on the pitch and still find ourselves in fifth this season.
City are going to up there. Liverpool and Chelsea will improve. Arsenal have spent a wedge on top of an already youthful and improving squad.
If we were to finish below the likes of Newcastle and Spurs then something will have gone awry, but this idea that this current squad is guaranteed to catapult to the top is folly. You’re right, some folk have expectations that are not in line with the reality of where our squad is at.
We had so much work to do when Ten Hag took on this job. He still needs players.
Slowly getting there which is expected, last season took out Maguire with Martinez, got Mcfred out with Ericsson and Casemiro. Filled the right winger gap at last.
This one he's upgraded Ericsson with Mount, got rid of De Gea - nearly smashed my TV watching him:
Got a Striker, still think he's pushing for a new one if he can get rid of Martial and another DM, CB
He's done really well cutting the wage bill, we can watch people talk about Utd spent this or we spent that. We are one of the most natural richest clubs in the world - put natural in there becuase of money laundering clubs.
This year we are in a better place, than last year.
This one he's upgraded Ericsson with Mount, got rid of De Gea - nearly smashed my TV watching him:
Got a Striker, still think he's pushing for a new one if he can get rid of Martial and another DM, CB
He's done really well cutting the wage bill, we can watch people talk about Utd spent this or we spent that. We are one of the most natural richest clubs in the world - put natural in there becuase of money laundering clubs.
This year we are in a better place, than last year.
Yes Woodward, Judge did so much damage absolutely delighted they are gone now but fully realise there is no quick fix to getting back to where United was before those cretins took on their roles.
Are you ok ?
Still mind-boggled that we sold Pereira but held onto Fred, McTominay and VDB. Maybe Pereira had the most resale value of those four, but the impact that those three had last season was virtually zero while Pereira had a very decent season Every club needs a midfield all-rounder and we picked up in Eriksen so all's well that ends well.
But as to the point at hand, ETH has done a solid retooling job. He was handed a mental case named Ronaldo and managed his exit brilliantly, he's had to work under ridiculous owners and his management of the Maguire situation was no less brilliant than his handling of Ronaldo. There's more for the bald Dutchman to do, and he knows it better than any of us, but there isn't another manager on the planet I'd feel better about having at the helm than Erik ten Hag.
Yeah, I explained in another post that I'm fine with that and my expectations are not so high, given how every team seems to be going for it.
It's not a dig, just an observation, I can see us competing but falling short due to some issues with the squad.
I also said, so long as we don't wilt and look useless on the pitch, even if we lose or outgunned, I don't mind.
If the outgoings that are expected to go happen and we get a CB and Amrabat we will be challenging for 2nd/3rd position .
also top 5 gets in to CL next season so it’s not a top 4 convo anymore .
Like I said, the manager shits gold phase is so real. Though admittedly, I didn't think it would take just a few months for it all to wear off.
It's a bit like post nut clarity.
Doesn’t change the picture really. We’ve got a lot of outs that needed to happen. There’s a few more still to happen.
I think Onana, Martinez, Hojlund will turn out to be excellent signings. Malacia at least a decent squad player. Casemiro, Eriksen were short term signings then there’s huge question marks over Mount and Antony.
We still need players out who don’t fit the managers vision and more players in who do.
"The North remembers" phase. Impressive
It's very easy to look like a genius by quoting yourself essentially saying 'we'll know whether he's good in a few years time'. Well, yes, obviously it'll be easier to tell by then. The reality is that things looked promising and like they were moving in the direction then, and as fans many of us tend towards optimism. Reserving judgment is fine (and often sensible) but it doesn't make you Nostradamus!
Was this just a thread bump to toot your own horn?
Kind of weird, especially as you’ve said - in the quote you’ve self quoted - we can’t really judge until a ‘few years’ and to be honest when you take away Antony, most signings have been pretty good with Mount being an unknown.
Was looking forward to moving away from a McFred pivot and onto a singular phase, but the pre-season match v Lens killed my enthusiasm.
Mount looked particularly lost. We had compacted and relied on Garnacho's wing breaks, which were usually mastered. Loading the wing worked eventually however we created precious little centrally. Plus, Case looked wasted.
Don't have a tangible midfield yet and it's a damning indictment of both EtH and the overall recruitment.
Mount looked particularly lost. We had compacted and relied on Garnacho's wing breaks, which were usually mastered. Loading the wing worked eventually however we created precious little centrally. Plus, Case looked wasted.
Don't have a tangible midfield yet and it's a damning indictment of both EtH and the overall recruitment.
We'll finally depose the Glazers with a Red Wedding and turn Old Trafford into a Hardhome to take points from. Yeah, we could be in for a Long Night tomorrow, but I have no doubts we can Hold the Door against the scouse, even with this team of Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things. Mhysa sure of it."The North remembers" phase. Impressive
Forwards- Gotten rid of Ronaldo, Martial has been useless and got in Rasmus. Maybe I'm forgetting a player or two but it's threadbare. We need another striker.
Midfield and wingers- Absolute waste of money. Three big money signings which have all underperformed. Sold a bunch of players but he's set us back in the middle of the park. Mainoo the one saving grace.
Defenders- Two short injury prone competitive players. If they can consistently play they could be good additions. As of now still meh and we still need a wholesale reshuffle of the whole group. Varane, Evans, Maguire, Lindelof are all not good enough.
Keeper- Got rid of dave which was needed but Onana is still 50/50
150 million wasted on Mount and Antony is just criminal.
Midfield and wingers- Absolute waste of money. Three big money signings which have all underperformed. Sold a bunch of players but he's set us back in the middle of the park. Mainoo the one saving grace.
Defenders- Two short injury prone competitive players. If they can consistently play they could be good additions. As of now still meh and we still need a wholesale reshuffle of the whole group. Varane, Evans, Maguire, Lindelof are all not good enough.
Keeper- Got rid of dave which was needed but Onana is still 50/50
150 million wasted on Mount and Antony is just criminal.
You'd hope now that Ineos are developing a proper football structure at the club. That the current manager or the next manager won't be shaping our style/vision or identifying players and driving recruitment.
At the very least we can only hope it finally kills the "we can't judge this manager until he sells 22 players and buys 22 to suit his style of play" argument that we've all been subjected to the last decade in defence of Moyes, Louis, Jose, Ole snd Erik.
Ideally going forward a new manager shouldn't necessitate a mass clear out of players.
It doesn’t make the argument any less true though when we’ve had a structure in place that thought it was a good idea to go for Moyes. Then go from Moyes to LVG, then jump from LVG’s football to Jose! You probably couldn’t find a bigger jump in styles…Then decide to throw the plan out of the window with Ole and give him a permanent job because he’d had a good first three months.
We now have a manager that could build a side and squad, it depends if he shares the same ethos as Ineos.
So while I agree that we shouldn’t be in a position where a new manager needs time to reshape the entire squad…it is exactly where we have been. I don’t think any of those managers were to blame for the lack of joined up thinking.
Yeah, it’s a pathetic bump.
Antony the only obvious blot on the manager’s copy book. As you say, the jury’s out on Mount. His stop gap and loan signings have been poor but not really an issue in a thread about a long term squad overhaul.
The major learning of the last two years has been that despite getting rid of a shit load of players from the squad he inherited, it now looks as though he needs to move on or upgrade basically all but 2 or 3 players from that squad. Which must be an unprecedented task at a top club.
Well done.
I don't disagree, I'm just looking forward to us being more organised, having a more stable well recruited squad and not having fans calling for the squad to be gutted every 2 years.
Hrm. The thread title is the 'reshaping of the squad' - it's not about whether things worked out for the better or worse, rather, the manager being given the chance to see a squad more in his desired image than it previously was.
What's also problematic is that most managers don't stick with a disastrous method vis-a-vis constantly tweaking to suit the personnel. That makes it harder to evaluate the squad because there's no known universe where Casemiro is the designated long pass distributor but this one, and so on and so forth.
Seeing these players in last years' set up would have been the better barometer than this clusterfeck we've been served up that is a heavy hinderance rather than something any set of players has or is benefiting from.
To be fair, the squad has been reshaped. Whether the players that have been bought in have the required qualities is another matter...but we have gotten rid of most of the lazy chancers, high-earners and has-beens.
Eriksen, Varane, Martial and Casemiro all likely to go this Summer imo, and that will further bring down the wage bill and reduce the average age
Eriksen, Varane, Martial and Casemiro all likely to go this Summer imo, and that will further bring down the wage bill and reduce the average age