[The scenario] A goal down with 10 minutes left of the game.

[The Azzurri]

Interesting to note that on a few occasion under LVG era, we were terribly disappointed. A far cry from the side under SAF, even at his worst United team ever, you would never doubt, SAF's team will not get the equaliser/winning goal in the last minute.

Why are we not throwing everything in to win the game? Why are we not 'rolling the dice'? And did previous LVG's team play similar when 1-0 down in the same situation?

Discuss.

 

[Cassidy]

Not having enough attacking players on the bench doesn't help. (Southampton)
However, I think this season we have got a few points late on in games.
Chelsea and Westbrom srping to mind, we also almost knicked a point away to City.

 

[iammemphis]

Chelsea at home? Classic fergie injury time goal.

 

[MUFC07]

Chelsea at home? Classic fergie injury time goal.

That and Fellaini vs Valencia are the only two last-minute we've had since SAF left (in a match we weren't already winning). So there's that.

 

[Bojan11]

I agree with you. Against Southampton, we should have thrown the kitchen sink. But there seemed to be no urgency.

Against Villa too, we were playing 10 men and not much urgency to get the goal.

Even against Stoke and Spurs, both those teams looked better in the last 10 minutes than us.

 

[GBBQ]

Main difference is SAF's United had a lot of these teams beaten mentally before they even got on the pitch, the opposition nicked a goal and defended it for their life. So the last 10 minutes of a match was United camped outside the box peppering crosses and shots. The other team might chance 1 striker at the half way line but was unlikely to have an attack to finish. You had wave after wave of attack, fergie time and dramatic last minute winners. It was almost inevitable that if we weren't already winning we would be laying siege to the goal.

Since then teams are having a right go at United. Even a 2 goal lead for United is seen as fair game so you'll have teams keeping their formation and attacking as the best form of defence.

 

[matherto]

We've done it a couple of times this season but there's certainly not the almost inevitably about it like there was under SAF.

I'd say for people like me, growing up in the 90's, the fact that we were never beaten until the whistle, always kept fighting was one of the biggest attractions to being a United fan.

There's very few things on this earth that match the ecstasy of a last minute winner.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The problem against Southampton is there wasn't any real organisation about how we wanted to go about getting an equalizer.

There are several ways to force pressure at the end of the game, but we didn't really do any of them properly.

1. You obviously push bodies forward - the problem we had with this approach was a) we had 3 centre backs on the pitch, none of which wanted to push any further then half way, and b) our main striker was Rooney, who kept dropping deeper then the last man... Fellaini, Herrera and Mata tried to push forward, but the spaces between our players was still two big, as we only really had those 4 players in advanced positions, due to our lack of wings.... which brings me to:

2. You use wide men to keep the ball high up the pitch and work an opening into the box. We did this a lot under SAF, as obviously we were very reliant on our wingers pressing high up the pitch, keeping the ball up high and either getting it into the box into a dangerous position, or working an opening to create a chance. With no wingers on the pitch, we didn't have anyone high on either side, and neither Blind nor Valencia could stick up there due to having to work back and be part of their defensive unit... Blind did put in one or two dangerous balls - which was all the more frustrating, as if we had him consistantly higher up the pitch (which would have been possible with someone behind him) he could have put in some more, and from more advanced/dangerous positions. So, without wingers, and people pushing up the pitch, we resorted too:

3. Knocking it up to the big man. In principal this is a fine tactic - but we played it all wrong. The idea of knocking it long isn't neccesarily for the big man (in our case Fellaini) to get the perfect knock on (though its great if that happens, it is limiting your chances - yet it is seemingly what we were hoping for), rather for him to make sure the ball isn't cleared comfortably by a defender, and people in and around him can either pick up his short knock-down, or a short clearance (due to the ball being contested) and thus retain possession higher up the pitch. However, we didn't really adopt this strategy properly as - going back to point 1, not enough people were high enough up the pitch to feed off the scraps and keep the ball alive... instead we had a Fellaini trying to get a perfect flick on to an on running Rooney/Herrera - which is difficult enough when you're not chasing the game and have everyone back.

I would have been fine with the long ball shit, had we actually done it proplery - by flooding bodies forward and keeping the ball alive... unfortunately we did no such thing, thus tour strategy was flawed. In future, I'd certainly like for us to move away from 3 at the back if we're losing in the dying stages, because having 3 people playing CB at that point of the game is totally pointless.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Did we get any last minute winners under Moyes?

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

This happened under Moyes for some reason too. Don't know what it is, but it seems we lack some sort of plan and panic when we're trying to find an equaliser or late winner.

With Sir Alex, we'd get it wide, flood the box, and get it in, which more often than not, ended up in a goal. We also played at a quick pace. Against Southampton, despite them defending resolutely, we were too slow and predictable.

I think putting Di Maria back in centre midfield will hopefully help this situation. He's the type of player who adds urgency to our play.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

C what I did there?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Did we get any last minute winners under Moyes?

I remember one or two last minute draws but no winners.

 

[Raw]

Did we get any last minute winners under Moyes?

If it counts, the 120th minute Hernandez winner against Sunderland in the League Cup

Other than that no. Latest winner we scored was Hernandez against Stoke in that 3-2 game at home, 80th minute. Our latest equaliser was a 54th minute penalty against Spurs away in that 2-2 game.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

There have been too many instances this season in which the team has been handed 4-5 minutes of injury time and spurned the opportunity entirely, rather than pressing the opposition in great numbers it has actually been United on the back foot.

He either doesn't make the sort of substitutions to help bring this about, or what appears to be a mental weakness take hold on the pitch. The lack of Fergie's presence on the touchline is a loss too psychologically.

 

[bishblaize]

You have to be careful with something like this that you're not stretching your mind over the many hundreds of games SAF managed for us and comparing it to the handful or so that LVG has managed us for.

A quick run through the results seems to show that in Fergie's last season we scored equalisers or winners at the 85 minute mark or later on an impressive 7 times from 52 games. However in the season before that we only managed it 2 times in 53 games. The season before that 7 times in 59 games. So to have only managed it twice in 23 games is not really a big deal. Not really any less than you'd expect tbh.

I do agree there's a diffferent feel about the games. There isnt the feel of the grand stand finale that you got used to under Fergie. But again, that could be deceptive.

 

[Alock1]

There have been several instances sason in which the team's been handed 4-5 minutes of injury time and spurned the opportunity entirely, rather than pressing the opposition in great numbers it has actually seen United on the back foot.

He either doesn't make the sort of substitutions to help bring this about, or what appears to be a mental weakness take hold on the pitch. The lack of Fergie's presence on the touchline is a loss too psychologically.

The players don't know how to 'throw the kitchen sink' in this current system. We pin them back which is grand, but then we don't get the players making quick movements and short passing in and around the box in order to force an opportunity. Our width being in a deeper position and without support (would be 2v1 under Fergie) doesn't help.

We're always going to be slower and more controller, even at the end of a game. I think that'd be true of most managers though. We'll still get late goals though once we're settled, they'll just come about differently.

 

[RetroStu]

...we lose.

 

[thejtrain]

Fergie time went away once Fergie left.

 

[Sarni]

Did we get any last minute winners under Moyes?

We did not win a single point in the last minutes under Moyes. The closest to that was when we came back from 2-1 to a 3-2 win over Stoke between 75th and 80th minute.

 

[Winrar]

That and Fellaini vs Valencia are the only two last-minute we've had since SAF left (in a match we weren't already winning). So there's that.

and Blind vs West Brom away (well, it's close anyways)

 

[Empire]

I remember his Barcelona side went 2-0 down at old trafford and came back 2-2, they then went 3-2 down and came back to 3-3.

Real Madrid were beating them at the bearnabeu 2-1 that same season, they had equalised when 1-0 down and again found the equaliser.

The philosophy definitely includes coming back when losing, this United team has a lot of work to do though before they consistently start performing the philosophy. That said, after a come back or two we will be more confident and so will the players, I think we are still getting the winning mentality back.

 

[Empire]

@Annihilate Now!

It also helps when you take the chances you get.

We could have done more but I still think at the very least we should have equalised, especially that chance of Mata's where he just couldn't direct it into the goal, I felt if it went in then it would have given us more confidence in what would then be our pursuit for the winner.

 

[Tarrou]

It wasn't quite the same towards the end of Fergie's era in my eyes. Sure, we got late goals in his final season but we weren't as relentless in those final 10 minutes of games. It was more of a frantic push for a goal that we see from any team when they have nothing to lose. We didn't have that control and composure that keeps teams pinned right back. I'm guessing this is due to the relatively poor midfield and Scholes not being the player he was.

 

[red_devil83]

At least its better than under Moyes

 

[jaimoe]

This is just my take. Tactically we spend more time passing the ball backward, sideways, back again and waste so damn much time doing so that there is very little pressure put on the oppposition. They go ahead and they just pack it in.
I don't understand well enough what LVG is doing tactically but I look at Rooney and AdM sometimes it seems like they just want to fecking go after it , but LVG says "dish ish not what we do". It's almost like a backward tiki-taka.
This maybe not so much a factor but there was a rythmn and a purpose to SAF's substitution pattern and figuring out what LVG is up to is just not possible.
if Utd are down or tied at the 60 m mark you could count on seeing offensive subs; Chicha, Forlan. Macheda (haha), etc. WTF does AJ need to do to get some meaningful playng time? Why is RVP exempt from being taken off? Bless Fletch, but I cringe when I see him going on at this point. LVG has near run into ground the likes of RVP, Falcao and others over this season.
When legs are turning to wood shouldn't we trot out Wilson and AJ for a looksee?
The maddening thing for me is not being able to figure out LVG, it's like like he's having one big laugh at us.

 

[RetroStu]

It wasn't quite the same towards the end of Fergie's era in my eyes. Sure, we got late goals in his final season but we weren't as relentless in those final 10 minutes of games. It was more of a frantic push for a goal that we see from any team when they have nothing to lose. We didn't have that control and composure that keeps teams pinned right back. I'm guessing this is due to the relatively poor midfield and Scholes not being the player he was.

It was more so actually in fergies final 2 seasons. In fact we were getting so many late goals in games that Rawkites were actually making quite a lot of money by betting on us, especially when it was a late goal to win a game.

Of course the reason why we had so many late goals at that point was because we were not as good as we used to be and we were level or behind a lot of the time.

Its the lack of late goals that is costing us this season. Take away those Fergie inspired late goals and you are just left with a pretty good team, nothing more.
We need to find that hunger and passion that Fergie instilled in us, its worth quite a lot of points over a whole season.

 

[Ish]

You have to be careful with something like this that you're not stretching your mind over the many hundreds of games SAF managed for us and comparing it to the handful or so that LVG has managed us for.

A quick run through the results seems to show that in Fergie's last season we scored equalisers or winners at the 85 minute mark or later on an impressive 7 times from 52 games. However in the season before that we only managed it 2 times in 53 games. The season before that 7 times in 59 games. So to have only managed it twice in 23 games is not really a big deal. Not really any less than you'd expect tbh.

I do agree there's a diffferent feel about the games. There isnt the feel of the grand stand finale that you got used to under Fergie. But again, that could be deceptive.

Those stats are all entirely dependent on how many games we were "chasing" late on, or trying to win etc.

But it's not just the stats though, it's as you mentioned, the feel is just completely different. Even under SAF when we didn't manage to rescue a point or snatch all 3 at the death....you could damn sure bet your house that we'd be throwing everything at the oppo! That "urgency" is just sorely lacking, especially under lvg.

But I agree with what you said - we need to give Lvg more time.

 

[Ish]

It was more so actually in fergies final 2 seasons. In fact we were getting so many late goals in games that Rawkites were actually making quite a lot of money by betting on us, especially when it was a late goal to win a game.

Of course the reason why we had so many late goals at that point was because we were not as good as we used to be and we were level or behind a lot of the time.

Its the lack of late goals that is costing us this season. Take away those Fergie inspired late goals and you are just left with a pretty good team, nothing more.
We need to find that hunger and passion that Fergie instilled in us, its worth quite a lot of points over a whole season.

Think you're under rating our team a bit.

His last 2 seasons - as in the 1 we threw away and lost to "Aguuuuueerrrrooo" on goal difference and his final season where we strolled the league with 4-5 games left?

Yeah we were more functional and workmanlike - inspired by rvp a lot. But you can't call a EPL winning side "pretty good, nothing more". It wasn't one of SAF's best sides for sure, and I agree, his mentality alone was worth 10-15 points per season.

 

[Tarrou]

It was more so actually in fergies final 2 seasons. In fact we were getting so many late goals in games that Rawkites were actually making quite a lot of money by betting on us, especially when it was a late goal to win a game.

Of course the reason why we had so many late goals at that point was because we were not as good as we used to be and we were level or behind a lot of the time.

Its the lack of late goals that is costing us this season. Take away those Fergie inspired late goals and you are just left with a pretty good team, nothing more.
We need to find that hunger and passion that Fergie instilled in us, its worth quite a lot of points over a whole season.

Yeah I know there was a lot but I'm talking more about our performances in the final stages when chasing a goal. I don't think we pinned teams back and dominated like we did in previous years. It felt more like desperation than the controlled assault on goal we saw in earlier Fergie teams. They never seemed to panic - the Giggs pass to Owen in the Derby is the best example I can recall.

 

[Duafc]

Still playing 5 at the back, when 1-0 down at home.

Why.

 

[Raw]

You have to be careful with something like this that you're not stretching your mind over the many hundreds of games SAF managed for us and comparing it to the handful or so that LVG has managed us for.

A quick run through the results seems to show that in Fergie's last season we scored equalisers or winners at the 85 minute mark or later on an impressive 7 times from 52 games. However in the season before that we only managed it 2 times in 53 games. The season before that 7 times in 59 games. So to have only managed it twice in 23 games is not really a big deal. Not really any less than you'd expect tbh.

I do agree there's a diffferent feel about the games. There isnt the feel of the grand stand finale that you got used to under Fergie. But again, that could be deceptive.

Have you tried narrowing down Fergie's last minute winners/equalisers when United were losing/drawing? I mean the majority of the time United under Ferguson would be winning games by then anyway.

I do agree with you on the last bit though, it's like we don't even try at the end.

 

[bishblaize]

Have you tried narrowing down Fergie's last minute winners/equalisers when United were losing/drawing? I mean the majority of the time United under Ferguson would be winning games by then anyway.

I do agree with you on the last bit though, it's like we don't even try at the end.

yeah that was just games where the goal was the equalizer or winner. There were loads of 90th minute goals when we were already 3-0 up.

 

[Raw]

yeah that was just games where the goal was the equalizer or winner. There were loads of 90th minute goals when we were already 3-0 up.

I mean like how Fergie did it 7 times in 52 games, it kinda skews the perspective of the stat by saying that since United were probably already winning in about 35 of those games. So having 7 equalisers/winners out of say, 15 games where United were losing/drawing, is actually very impressive.

Whereas this season, United have been drawing/losing a lot more than Fergie did yet they only got a late winner/equaliser twice.

 

[bishblaize]

I mean like how Fergie did it 7 times in 52 games, it kinda skews the perspective of the stat by saying that since United were probably already winning in about 35 of those games. So having 7 equalisers/winners out of say, 15 games where United were losing/drawing, is actually very impressive.

Whereas this season, United have been drawing/losing a lot more than Fergie did yet they only got a late winner/equaliser twice.

Oh, with you. No, sadly I didn't. If threads still active tomorrow I may do.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

I think whats happened since van gaal has taken over is he's become obsessed with the performance rather than the result, as he believes the results will come because of good performances in the long run. He sends his team out with the personel and tactics he thinks will give the best performance on the day dependant on the opposition and unfortunately when we dont play well, and go behind due to a error or being outplayed he feels that making a change to alter how the team sets up will be detromental to the tactics he originally assumed will do the job on the day and that his original instructions will come good.

So for him to say, feck it a goal down bring on an extra striker and a winger throw caution to the wind and try to claw something back, is not how he wants the team to play in relation to his philosophy he thinks is the best to implement into the squad, as we would make riskier passes and lose our dictation of possession. for him to change it up and go more offensive and ship another goal would hurt him more than continuing as is and being unlucky not to equalise or go on to win.

I dont think i explained it very well i hope you get what im trying to put across.

 

[Silent_Running]

In my opinion, whenever we're not winning we should try to win until we are no longer not winning, whether that be in the first minute or the last.

 

[Raw]

Decided to calculate it myself.

2014/15 (Van Gaal)

Spoiler

Winning/equalising goals at 85'+
Blind equaliser 86' (West Brom, PL)
RVP equaliser 94' (Chelsea, PL)
Rooney winner 85' (Arsenal, PL)

Total: 3 late winning/equalising goals in 3 games
Number of games losing/drawing in 85'+: 15/23
20% of games United were losing/drawing in 85'+ resulted in a positive change in result.

Technically Rooney's 'winner' was scored at 1-0 up, but I counted it as it secured the 3 points for United in the end. It's quite debatable, so to compare it would be 13% of games not counting Rooney's goal.

2013/14 (Moyes)

Spoiler

Winning/equalising goals at 85'+
Hernandez winner 121' (Sunderland, LC)

Total: 1 late winning/equalising goal in 1 game
Number of games losing/drawing in 85'+: 22/55
5% of games United were losing/drawing in 85'+ resulted in a positive change in result.

Technically any extra time goal counts as a goal after 85', so in this post I only put goals that were 5 minutes before the end (if it's an extra time winner/equaliser).
I also didn't include the 2 games Giggs dropped points in (Sunderland and Southampton).

2012/13 (Ferguson)

Spoiler

Winning/equalising goals at 85'+
RVP equaliser 87' (Southampton, PL)
RVP winner 92' (Southampton, PL)
Hernandez winner 87' (Villa, PL)
RVP winner 92' (City, PL)
Hernandez winner 90' (Newcastle, PL)
Ferdinand winner 87' (Swansea, PL)
RVP equaliser 91' (West Ham, FA)
Rooney winner 85' (Braga, CL)

Total: 8 late winning/equalising goals in 7 games
Number of games losing/drawing in 85'+: 25/54
28% of games United were losing/drawing in 85'+ resulted in a positive change in result.

To be fair, 5 of those losses/draws were near the end of the season where United were already so far ahead so the pressure was off them.

2011/12 (Ferguson)

Spoiler

Winning/equalising goals at 85'+
Nani winner 94' (City, CS)
Giggs winner 92' (Norwich, PL)
Young equaliser 90' (Basel, CL)

Total: 3 late winning/equalising goals in 3 games
Number of games losing/drawing in 85'+: 22/54
14% of games United were losing/drawing in 85'+ resulted in a positive change in result.

2010/11 (Ferguson)

Spoiler

Winning/equalising goals at 85'+
Hernandez winner 87' (Stoke, PL)
Park winner 93' (Wolves, PL)
Vidic equaliser 85' (Villa, PL)
Berbatov winner 88' (Blackpool, PL)
Berbatov winner 88' (Bolton, PL)
Hernandez winner 90' (Wolves, LC)
Hernandez winner 85' (Valencia, CL)
Rooney winner 87' (Rangers, CL)

Total: 8 late winning/equalising goals in 8 games
Number of games losing/drawing in 85'+: 29/60
28% of games United were losing/drawing in 85'+ resulted in a positive change in result.

 

[Gopher Brown]

I'm not even that annoyed if we lose having really gone for it on the last 10min. Football is about entertainment, that is all. Watching a team retaining possession in the last 10min when we're down isn't a fun existence.

Like Fergie said in that interview he did the other week - 75 minutes of organisation and patience, then 15 minutes of 'doing what they want' at the end if we're losing or drawing.

The 1-6 game against City was 1-3 until the 90th minute. I'd rather lose like that trying to get something than lose as cowards.

 

[Raw]

The 1-6 game against City was 1-3 until the 90th minute. I'd rather lose like that trying to get something than lose as cowards.

Well if it weren't for those last 3 goals, our GD at the end of the season would have been just 2 behind City

 

[Gopher Brown]

Well if it weren't for those last 3 goals, our GD at the end of the season would have been just 2 behind City

Meh, hindsight and all that. I'd still rather we went for it in the games. They were better than us that season, even if that's not how the world works.