The Third Redcafe Sheep Draft: R1 - Stobzilla vs Skizzo/Pat

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

...................................... Team Stobzilla .................................................................................... Team Skizzo/Pat .........................................


Team Stobzilla

Formation

Gone for an Ancelotti-esque take on 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1 pace, quality and stamina all in abundance in key area's of the pitch. What we may cede in terms of being able to dominate through possession we more than make up for in the counter attacking phase.

Defence

Key feature of my side is it's full backs, Demyanenko and one of the consensus best right backs of all time Wim Suurbier, both have the aforementioned pace, stamina and quality to not only be able to shut down the wide areas whilst still providing an attacking threat. In the middle we have Soviet legend Albert Whatshisfacenevnyov, not only a pain in the arse in terms of knowing how to spell his name but also an absolute wall defensively. To his left we have former Real Madrid captain, Multiple CL winner and general ball playing CB animal Fernando Hierro. They are backed up by one Michael Konsel a solid if unspectacular Austrian international and well thought of by Roma fans during his brief time in Italy.

Midfield

Always a key area and I will start with Steven Gerrard here I think it is important to indulge his all action style, we all know his ability/penchant for firing balls from deep, this will allow him to do some of that still but also he gets to be a genuine box to box threat, all be it focused on the right hand side of the field supporting Suurbier, with the added protection of criminally under rated Peter Reidwe get to see the best of the much maligned but supremely talented scouse twat, Gerrard that is, not Reid. Although Reid has an important role to play himself, he can play a destroyer type role here but also use his brilliant passing range it is easy forgotten he was such a part of that great Everton side of the mid 80's that he was voted Player of the year and finished 4th in Balon D'or voting in 1984/85. Robert Prosinecki's mercurial dribbling and passing talents are put to work on the left centre of the three. A perfectly complimentary trio one that would pose all manner of problems for any team in this draft, at any stage.

The One

Not much needs to be said regarding Diego Maradona given free licence in this set up he has players all around that can win the ball back and get it too him he has the ability to pass his way or dribble through the tightest of defences.

Attack

Thierry Henry resumes a familar role of pulling out to the left and doing damage getting in around the back, an absolute deadly finisher and also astute wing player, as capable of finding his partner as he is of scoring himself, he sits alongside one of the deadliest strikers of his time. Dixie Dean, 425 goals in 489 games is too simplistic but not entirely irrelevant. An accomplished all around finisher, can strike inside the box, can be on the end of crosses from the full backs and also strong enough to hold up play.


All in all, this is going to be a tough battle but one I think my side would come out of on top of, I think there is too much individual quality player for player in my favour and I have also found a perfect way of blending them all together into a cohesive unit.

Good luck to Skizzo and Pat as always, this should be a good un.


Team Skizzo/Pat

Formation - 4-2-3-1

The Team

Rinat Dasayev will be the man between the sticks. Looking to spring us forward from the back with his fantastic distribution, he also offers a fantastic last line of defence with his shot stopping abilities. In front of him will be the German Egon Horst and Roberto Rosato. Two tough tackling, no nonsense defenders who will look to defend first. The full back positions will be manned by Nilton Santos and Nelinho, two Brazilian full backs, both able to work up and down the flanks, and create attacking opportunities without being a defensive liability.

The defensive wall in midfield will be Tito Goncalves, a leader on the pitch, who won't be afraid to get stuck in and do some dirty work where necessary. Next to him will be Giancarlo Antognoni, a fantastic all round player who will work hard defensively, and look to get forward to link with the forwards when necessary.

Jose Moreno and Adolfo Pedernera will join forces again and look to be the main creative hub of the team. Both are capable of dropping deeper into midfield, and will look to dictate the attacking play. Rob Rensenbrink will be wide left, looking to create space with his runs and dribbling, and get on the end of knock downs and through balls. Leading the line will be David Trezeguet, a clinical striker who will look to get his head on crosses, as well as convert his chances in front of goal.

Areas of advantage

Moreno and Pedernera - Two players of the highest quality. Close to Maradona in terms of talent and ability, their interplay and understanding will help run our offense and create chances. With no one of sufficient quality to stop them controlling the game, they will provide for the clinical finishing of Rensenbrink and Trezeguet.

Nilton Santos and Rensenbrink - Arguably the best left flank in the draft, we combine a GOAT level full back, and one of the best left wingers of all time, and they face an attacking Suurbier at right back. With no real right winger in Stobz team, they will have the run of the wing and overload on that side. Rensenbrink has the ability to cut inside and be a goal threat, and Santos can overlap and stretch play to get the ball into the box.

Dasayev as a last line of defence, and shot stopper, is far beyond what Stobzilla can offer in goal at the other end. In a game like this that will have goals for both teams, having a far superior goal keeper can give us an advantage to outscore the opposition.

Stobz full backs provide most of the width for his team. Up against two quality wingers, they won't be able to attack like they need to here. Once Stobz loses the width they offer, his attack becomes much more narrow, making it easier to shepherd.

Egon Horst will probably be mentioned by Stobz as a weak link in our defence. He was a big, strong German defender, who would match up well with Dean, negating his aerial threat. With no real wide players able to get the ball in to the box anyway, Dean's biggest route to goals is lost. While he is still talented with his feet, it makes him easier to control when he is more of a single threat on the ground.

In terms of attacking threat, Maradona will be better marshaled by Tito Goncalves on our side, than Reid will be able to do on Pedernera. Small advantages can make the difference in games like this, and we have a few in our favour.


Player profiles/Videos/Gifs to be introduced during the match discussion.

Good luck Stobz!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

~ Game on ~

All the best @Stobzilla @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard !

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Poll set up

@Gio FYI

Hope everything is OK.

 

[Stobzilla]

I've just been staring at the two teams for 5 minutes, hardly a coherent thought passed through my head, all I can really offer is that I disagree with the assertion that anyone on that pitch is close to Maradona's level and I wouldn't have Reid dismissed so readily.

Other than that, yeah, pick the bones out of this one voters. I genuinely think Maradona is the thing that truly separates the two sides, other than that, it is nip and tuck.

 

[Skizzo]

I've just been staring at the two teams for 5 minutes, hardly a coherent thought passed through my head, all I can really offer is that I disagree with the assertion that anyone on that pitch is close to Maradona's level and I wouldn't have Reid dismissed so readily.

Other than that, yeah, pick the bones out of this one voters. I genuinely think Maradona is the thing that truly separates the two sides, other than that, it is nip and tuck.

In terms of Reid, it may have sounded somewhat harsh, but it wasn't intended to make him sound like a nobody, or out of his depth. The comment was just in terms of comparing his role in shutting down compared to Goncalves. Reid with probably more of an all round game, but Goncalves here in terms of purely putting on a shift to (try to) limit Diego.

As for Diego as the stand out player, I'd be inclined to agree. The benefit for us being that we paired up the two Argie lads, getting their proven talent together.

I imagine this being one of fine margins. I'll try and limit the amount of Edgar snake oil used

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Albert Whatshisfacenevnyov

I like Skizzo's attack and CB pairing, but not convinced with his midfield, esp in the counter attacking strategy he depends on to score. Suurbier/Gerrard should be OK normally, but with Gerrard being the deepest of his midfielders, I'm struggling to see if this would be effective. The good thing is this may well bring out the best in Maradonna, 3 good midfielders supplying him. Henry will thrive with Prosinecki and Demyanenko. Why not Reid as deepest and make it a proper diamond?

Rob Resenbrink supported by Nilton Santos wll be perfect to exploit gaps behind Surrbier in the counter-counter attack That central midfield pair will be perfect against mostly central attack of Stobzilla's.
Did Eegon Horst only have 6 seasosn of top flight football in total?
GK advantage goes to Skizzo

Stobz has better attack and defence, while Skizzo/Pat has better possession.

Imo, this will be a 1-1 draw. Stobz will have better possession and will get past that defence once at least. Similarly Stobz's counter will break open Skizzo's defence at least once.

Personally for me, It all comes down to Horst. What kind of CB is he?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'll try and limit the amount of Edgar snake oil used

I haven't voted yet

 

[Stobzilla]

but with Gerrard being the deepest of his midfielders, I'm struggling to see if this would be effective. The good thing is this may well bring out the best in Maradonna, 3 good midfielders supplying him. Henry will thrive with Prosinecki and Demyanenko. Why not Reid as deepest and make it a proper diamond?

Because I personally don't think making it a diamond is representative of the shape of the team nor really express fully what Gerrard's role is, Reid is the one sitting and Gerrard will be getting beyond him in the attacking phase but dropping beyond him to help Suurbier in the defensive phase, it is a semantics thing really, I think most people can see what is going on there regardless of the starting position I have put in the graphic.

 

[Stobzilla]

I will admit I am not familiar with Horst, nor have I been able to become familiar when researching the line-up, from what I can gather he is as described, big, strong and decent enough but maybe, not right for this company. I can't say with any degree of certainty though, I will happily retract that should something new come to light.

 

[Skizzo]

A few of our profiles for our key guys.

Rinat Dasayev

Considered the second best Russian goalkeeper ever behind Lev Yashin, and one of the best in the world in the 1980s. He was awarded the title of the World's Best Goalkeeper of the Year award in 1988 by the IFFHS. In 2004, he was named by Pelé as one of the top 125 greatest living footballers.

Dasayev, nicknamed "Iron Curtain", was a goalkeeper for the Russian football club Spartak Moscow during most of the 1980s. He won the Soviet championship five times and was named Best Soviet Goalkeeper by Ogonyok magazine in 1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1987, 1988. In 1982 he was named Soviet Footballer of the Year. Dasayev played for the Soviet national team at the 1980 Summer Olympics, winning the bronze medal. He appeared in the 1982, 1986 and 1990 FIFA World Cups, as well as the Euro 88 (where the Soviet Union finished second). In total, he was capped 91 times from 1979 to 1990, being the second-most capped player ever for the Soviet Union.

 

[Skizzo]

Jose Moreno and Adolfo Pedernera

Two of the greatest Argentinian players of all time, and part of the greatest River Plate team. Arguably the two most important players in the famous La Maquina team that dominated Argentine football in the 1940's.

'Charro' Moreno is still considered by many who saw him play to have been the greatest footballer of all time. He was a player with great technique, superior ball skills, creative in midfield, and lethal in the penalty area. He was equally adept with both legs and formidable heading the ball. In addition to his technical virtues, he played with great intelligence, and he also had that elusive instinct which is native to all superior goalscorers, as shown by his statistics which indicate he scored an average of half a goal per match throughout his career,

Moreno was an inside right for most of his career, but was equally at home in midfield as inside the penalty area. In River’s famous ‘La Maquina’ he would often withdraw to midfield to organize the team, and to help with ball recovery. He was a natural athlete who could outrun most players on the field, even though he payed little attention to training. He smoked, drank, was famous for his nighttime escapades, and yet his career outlasted that of most of his contemporaries, as he played until the age of 44.

Alfredo Di Stéfano's legacy was secured in Spain thanks to his spell running the most successful single team the European Cup/Champions League has ever seen back at the very dawn of its history. What's less well-known is that he had found his way to Spain via Colombia (in an era when the Colombian league operated outside FIFA's rules and was able to attract some of the finest players of the era from all over the world) after only breaking into the team at River Plate at the age of 21.

That's not an old age by any means, but it's not especially young either. Maradona had been playing first team football for six years by the time he turned 21, and most of the greats were already fixtures in their teams by that age. So why did arguably the most complete player in the history of football not break into the first team sooner?

Adolfo Pedernera is the answer. Or rather, the team Pedernera featured in. River Plate won the Argentine championship in 1941, '42 and '45 (there was only one championship per year back then, unlike today), and did so with a side regarded, to this day, as arguably the greatest club team the country has ever seen. Dubbed La Máquina ('The Machine') by a journalist in 1942, the most famous incarnation of the five-man starting lineup actually only played together eighteen times in four years, and never against bitter rivals Boca Juniors, but the names Ángel Labruna, Félix Loustau, José Manuel Moreno, Juan Carlos Muñoz and Pedernera are etched indelibly into the memories of fans – and not only fans of River. Labruna won nine league titles in all with River and is the Argentine Primera División's second highest scorer of all time, but Pedernera, though he didn't score as many, orchestrated the play.

And it was the play that was the thing for La Máquina. Because although the goals flowed freely, it was the style that was most important, arguably even more so than winning (three titles in six years from 1941-'46 is hardly domination of Madrid-in-the-early-European-Cup proportions). Pedernera shaped that style. When he left River in 1947 to move to Atlanta, Di Stéfano was brought back from loan at Huracán and finally given a place in the team. That's how good Pedernera was; when the time came to replace him, only the best would do.

 

[Skizzo]

Personally for me, It all comes down to Horst. What kind of CB is he?

I will admit I am not familiar with Horst, nor have I been able to become familiar when researching the line-up, from what I can gather he is as described, big, strong and decent enough but maybe, not right for this company. I can't say with any degree of certainty though, I will happily retract that should something new come to light.

He played for Schalke from 1960-65, and then with Hamburg from 65-69. For all intents and purposes, he was what we described. We aren't going to big him up into some sort of unknown super player that slipped under the radar. From what we can tell, he was spectacularly unspectacular. 6'1, strong, played in a European cup final, and a domestic cup final. The teams he played for didn't win any trophies, and weren't fantastic domestically in the league.

I wouldn't put him at a sheep level, but when measuring him up to even his partner here, Rosato, he obviously doesn't have the resume to compare. That being said, he's part of a unit which is drilled into keeping it fairly simple. He matches up with Dean, and will look to match him physically. Dean won't have the size or power advantage he enjoyed over defenders back in his day, so he'll look to play the ball on the floor (which he's capable of doing) but he'll be rather isolated with Maradona playing from deep, and Henry drifting in and out from the left. We feel he's more than capable of doing a simple defensive job, especially with Rosato, Nilton Santos, and Goncalves around him.

 

[Skizzo]

The Brazilian full backs.

Nilton Santos, one of the best full backs of all time. Not much needs to be said on him. He could man a flank on his own, and with Rensenbrink ahead of him, they form a deadly route to goal in which he'll have a lot of space to operate.

His general defensive play and abilities.

His goal against Austria (second goal of the game) where he bursts forward from the back, wins the ball, links up with the forward and scores.

Nelinho, 8 goals in 28 caps isn't too shabby, especially when considering he was a full back. Made appearances at two World Cups for Brazil. Was good at the back, and even better going forward. Good pace to help him out against Henry, and will look to get forward when he can to link up with Moreno and add another goal threat.

 

[Skizzo]

David Trezeguet may not have gotten much love throughout the drafts, but he was a fine goal scorer, and more importantly, has found the net while playing against Hierro before. Twice in fact, over two legs.

The first one here, Hierro lets Trezeguet drift in behind him for the cross. When the knockback comes back, Hierro fails to pick up Trezeguet again, letting him slam it in the back of the net.

In this second clip, filmed with a potato, Trezeguet again finds himself drifting away from Hierro and finding space in the box, slamming home a loose ball after a save by the keeper.

Two examples of the movement and predatory instinct of Trezeguet against Hierro, showing what he can do with only a few yards of space. With the movement of Rensenbrink, Pedernera and Moreno around him, he'll find himself with a few yards to do what he does best.

 

[Skizzo]

Rob Rensenbrink

A Dutch legend in Belgium, comparisons were made to other legends of the game. A ridiculously talented, goal scoring winger.

Spoiler

At that time, Club Brugge were coached by the former Dutch International Frans de Munck and following Rob Rensenbrink into blue-black was fellow compatriot Henk Houwaart. The Dutch were joining a team which already included Belgian Internationals such as Pierre Carteus , Raoul Lambert , Fons Bastijns and Erwin Vanden Daele; Rensenbrinks impact on this group of players was instantaneous and in his first season the club won the Belgium Cup.

By 1971, Robbie had a 2:1 goal scoring ratio and had propelled Club Brugge to the runners-up spot in both 1970 and 1971. Inevitably, Rensenbrink once again received attention from coaches at home and abroad (receiving his nickname from the Hungarian coach Lajos Baróti). Leaving his position on the board at Club Brugge, Constant Vanden Stock became President of RSC Anderlecht in 1971. The coach in charge of les Mauves was the man who had given Robbie his International debut; German coach Georg Kessler. Both Stock and Kessler immediately set about bringing a player they both knew well to the capital.

Expecting a move back to his native Holland, Rensenbrink surprised everyone once more by signing for Anderlecht in exchange for Wilfried Puis and Johnny Velkeneers. It would be at the Parc Astrid where Robbie would stay for the next nine seasons, scoring 143 goals in 262 games and becoming a legend in the process. Rensenbrinks success in Belgium would come at the expense of a reputation in his homeland, however.

At the close of his International career, Rensenbrink would not have 50 caps to commemorate his time in the national team. Following his international debut in 1968, Rob picked up relatively few caps due to competition for the forward positions with Johan Cruyff & Piet Keizer. The KNVB were not completely ignorant of his talents, however; Rinus Michels included him for the 1974 FIFA World Cup squad and despite being around for just under ten years as a player, the World Cup in West Germany would be Rensenbrink’s first international tournament appearance.

Rensenbrinks performances at the World Cup had led to numeorus overtures from top European clubs but despite this interest, Rensenbrink agreed to stay at Anderlecht. This decision would mean that he would become a legend for les Mauves, forming almost telepathic partnerships with the players supporting him. Assisted by Belgian midfield duo Ludo Coeck and Paul Van Himst as well as Hungarian striker Attila Ladynski, Rensenbrink brought the title back to Brussels at the end of his first season there and then once again two years later.

Around this time, teammates described watching the silent Rensenbrink during training sessions and describing his movement and skill as art. More beautiful, in fact; more precise. By all accounts, watching Robbie in these sessions were akin to peering into the Leonardo’s sketch books; the smooth, elegant way of releasing the ball or his dribbling technique when he retained it. When not in possession; quick acceleration, his movement off the ball and ability to find space met with comparisons to George Best.


Despite the comparisons, however; the way he touched the ball was his own and no one else’s. It was like handwriting, and Robbie had beautiful handwriting.

As if following his lead, fellow compatriots Jan Mulder, Jan Ruiter, Leen Barth and later Arie Haan, Peter Ressel and Ronny van Poucke joined the Belgian Champions. The Dutch contingent were very successful in Anderlecht and with talented home grown youngsters such as Franky Vercauteren and Francois Van der Elst, Anderlecht would appear in three consecutive Cup Winners Cup finals; winning two of them (in 1976 and 1978). European Super Cup triumphs also followed over peak Bayern Munich and Liverpool sides in 1976 & 1978. Rensenbrink scored goals in all four of these finals as well as scoring 30 in 43 European appearances for Anderlecht.

The Dutch went into the '78 tournament arguing over formations, money, and how many stripes they were prepared to wear on their shirts but despite this now time-honoured unrest; again, they reached the final. Regardless of the chaos surrounding him; with the slight but imposing shadow of Cruyff gone from the dressing room, the serene Resenbrink produced some of the greatest football of his career playing on the left-hand side of a front three alongside Johnny Rep and René van de Kerkhof. During the final against Argentina; with the score at 1-1, Rensenbrink – played though by Ruud Krol in the last 30 seconds of normal time, shot from a narrow angle which was deflected on to the post and bounced clear. It would remain in the minds of many of his countrymen for years to come. In extra time, Argentina’s Mario Kempes and then Daniel Bertoni closed this chapter of Dutch football history once and for all.


Rensenbrink finished the tournament as the 2nd highest scorer with 5, behind Kempes on 6. Rensenbrink played some of the qualifiers for Euro 80, but following a 2–0 defeat by Poland in a qualifier for Euro 80, he retired from international football at the age of 32, having scored 14 times for his country and accumulating 46 caps.

Rensenbrink was a humble and modest man; in personality there appear to be parallels with Dennis Bergkamp in that both were reputedly an understated and calm presence in the dressing room. Robbie missed two penalties in his entire career, and often enjoyed telling the keeper beforehand where he was going to place the ball, and then still beating him there. Like The Iceman (or non-flying Dutchman), Rensenbrink could also score unbelievable goals from technically impossible angles.

The comparisons with the younger man end there, however; a common complaint was that whilst Bergkamp was able to score goals like a silent assassin, he did not display that killer instinct enough. So whereas Bergkamp was not ‘a killer’; with 208 goals in 467 matches, Rob Rensenbrink was.

Robbie Rensenbrink was as good as Cruyff, only in his mind was he not

A longer highlight video of his talents. He and Nilton would be absolutely deadly down that flank.

 

[RedTiger]

2 lovely teams. Skizzo has a solid front 4 perfect in their respective roles, while Stobz fields a quality back 4. I like skizzo's back 5 with the exception of Horst, but the fact he made it to a European final at least means he's competent. I like both midfields but I do wonder if Reid will be able to keep Pedernera quiet.

in my opinion, it all boils down to 2 things, Skizzo is fielding 2 quality wingers and Stobz is fielding Maradona.

Again, Lovely teams.

 

[Skizzo]

2 lovely teams. Skizzo has a solid front 4 perfect in their respective roles, while Stobz fields a quality back 4. I like skizzo's back 5 with the exception of Horst, but the fact he made it to a European final at least means he's competent. I like both midfields but I do wonder if Reid will be able to keep Pedernera quiet.

in my opinion, it all boils down to 2 things, Skizzo is fielding 2 quality wingers and Stobz is fielding Maradona.

Again, Lovely teams.

Probably an apt choice of words

I think everyone see's the game pretty much the same way so far. Maradona being the main man on one side. All I'd say in response, and I think I've already said it, with the opposition not quite having the ability to fully spread the field, it makes it easier for us to limit space, and condense the middle of the park to try and contain the threat (as much as you can try to contain Diego, that is)

On the flip side, being able to spread the field up when we attack, it gives us the chance to find space to probe with our attackers and create those openings a bit more freely.

Don't want to beat the same point over and over again though Thanks for the input!

 

[Snow]

Very attacking sides. No proper DMC for Stob, 4 wing backs on the pitch, CBs that are used to playing other roles than a CB as a part of a 4-man defense. It's a case of who scores more for me and with Maradona, Henry, a poacher up front and long shooters behind them the goals can come from all over.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Very odd match-up. Stobz has almost too much offensive quality jammed into a team which under normal circumstances would look far too vulnerable from a tactical standpoint. The amount of defensive work Reid and the CB duo has to do here is staggering, not least because Stobz has opted for fullbacks who are clearly better going forward than cleaning up defensively.

Skizzo/Pat look much more balanced, but field several players it will be much harder to sell than most of Stobz' boys. That isn't an actual argument against them, obviously, just a comment on the difficulty they face here with regard to winning the voters over.

And obvious point here, already made by S/P, is that the left flank versus right flank situation looks like murder. I see no realistic way in which Stobz can defend effectively against Santos/Rensenbrink without this threat causing an imbalance in other parts of his defensive set-up (which can then be exploited by S/P's other attackers): On their own Stevie G and Suurbier are completely outmatched, even if both of them sacrifice their entire offensive game in order to simply hang on for dear life (but they aren't supposed to do that, as per the tactics). Utter mismatch for me.

The problem, for S/P, is obviously that it's nearly impossible to imagine the trio of Maradona, Henry and Dean going 90 minutes without scoring here.

 

[Skizzo]

Very attacking sides. No proper DMC for Stob, 4 wing backs on the pitch, CBs that are used to playing other roles than a CB as a part of a 4-man defense. It's a case of who scores more for me and with Maradona, Henry, a poacher up front and long shooters behind them the goals can come from all over.

Well they're set up as a counter attacking side, so not sure how "attacking" they can be considered. Gerrard and Reid won't be popping off all these long shots with the defensive work they'll need to be putting in. Plus they can't really attack with the full backs since they'll need to be aware of the ridiculous wing threat they face.

The fact that you pointed out the lack of a dedicated DM, and that we have Ped-Mor, Rensenbrink, and Trezeguet, I'd argue we have more of a goal threat. Plus with the possession advantage, we would likely create more chances and have just as good a chance as finishing them as Maradona-Henry-Dean. Not to mention the absolute mismatch in quality of goalkeepers.

 

[Skizzo]

Very odd match-up. Stobz has almost too much offensive quality jammed into a team which under normal circumstances would look far too vulnerable from a tactical standpoint. The amount of defensive work Reid and the CB duo has to do here is staggering, not least because Stobz has opted for fullbacks who are clearly better going forward than cleaning up defensively.

Skizzo/Pat look much more balanced, but field several players it will be much harder to sell than most of Stobz' boys. That isn't an actual argument against them, obviously, just a comment on the difficulty they face here with regard to winning the voters over.

And obvious point here, already made by S/P, is that the left flank versus right flank situation looks like murder. I see no realistic way in which Stobz can defend effectively against Santos/Rensenbrink without this threat causing an imbalance in other parts of his defensive set-up (which can then be exploited by S/P's other attackers): On their own Stevie G and Suurbier are completely outmatched, even if both of them sacrifice their entire offensive game in order to simply hang on for dear life (but they aren't supposed to do that, as per the tactics). Utter mismatch for me.

The problem, for S/P, is obviously that it's nearly impossible to imagine the trio of Maradona, Henry and Dean going 90 minutes without scoring here.

Yeah, I touched on a few of those points in my reply to Snow above. Gerrard will need to have the game of his life here, and even if he does, he would contribute little going forward. I personally always felt he offered more as a 10, or playing off a striker, in somewhat of a free role. Playing up on the right wing/midfield in 06/07 as a close second. Here he's tasked with helping out an offensive full back against that left flank. IMO, at least, its possibly the clearest route to goal in the match.

You make a(n unfortunately) good point regarding our unknown players. Antognoni, Moreno, Pedernera, and to an extent, Rosato and Nelinho, all need "selling". I feel that's where we'll fall apart here, as most of the voters won't want to read long posts selling these players (especially since there's a few) and will go with the known quantity of Maradona/Henry.

Wouldn't ever sell a clean sheet here at all. Three quality offensive threats capable of scoring, we'd be suicidal to try and hold out for a 1-0 here. That being said, if we compare offensive threats, and better set up defensive units, keepers, and etc etc, I think I could safely argue a high scoring win for the boys here. Whether that translates to the scan voters is entirely another matter

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'll place my vote for S/P (thx Chester) now. I'm not convinced on Stobz midfield and his fullbacks in a counter attacking setup. Open to change post more discussions though.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

S/P

Every time I see this, it reminder me of Standard & Poor index!

 

[Skizzo]

Giancarlo Antognoni

Italian, World Cup winning midfielder, and Fiorentina legend. Highly regarded midfielder, who appeared in two World Cups, and one European Championships. Obligatory praise included

Antognoni is regarded as one of the best Italian players of his generation due to his vision, control, technical ability, and accurate passing range. He was also a fast and elegant player when dribbling with the ball, and he was capable of passing or striking the ball accurately with both feet and from set pieces

He gives us that goal threat from deeper, as well as being solid in possession. He'd link up well with Moreno and Pedernera as they drop deep to maintain possession and probe for openings.


He also allows me to segue into this fantastic piece of information I came across while researching him. In 2010 he was awarded a "Legends of Football" Golden Foot award. No small feat when you look at some of the other Legend recipients. Maradona, Di Stefano, Platini, George Best, Zico, Muller. Also received the award? Mia Hamm

Giancarlo Antognoni
Nilton Santos
David Trezeguet
Rinat Dasayev

ESPN has even thrown their endorsement behind the award, so add some modicum of credibility
this last
this

 

[Snow]

Well they're set up as a counter attacking side, so not sure how "attacking" they can be considered. Gerrard and Reid won't be popping off all these long shots with the defensive work they'll need to be putting in. Plus they can't really attack with the full backs since they'll need to be aware of the ridiculous wing threat they face.

The fact that you pointed out the lack of a dedicated DM, and that we have Ped-Mor, Rensenbrink, and Trezeguet, I'd argue we have more of a goal threat. Plus with the possession advantage, we would likely create more chances and have just as good a chance as finishing them as Maradona-Henry-Dean. Not to mention the absolute mismatch in quality of goalkeepers.

I don't think you're team will dominate possession as much as you think. This won't be a 60-40 game. I also don't buy into this perpetual myth that if full backs are against good wingers they can't attack. That's not how full backs work. They attack when needed, they don't just run forward and leave space behind them. I also don't like it that the winger is always supposed to be defending the opposition winger.

I'm not saying you won't score. If your team moves the ball around fast without losing it you'll most likely open up the other team. There's a lot of chances in this game and it's a matter of who finishes theirs better.

I'll take a better look at your midfield. Pretty old players you've got there and I generally don't rate them as highly. I genuinely feel that in this day it's a lot harder to stand out as a footballer for your talent as there is such a fierce competition and the standard is so much higher. The pace in which the game is played makes it another game than what your River boys used to play.

 

[Skizzo]

I don't think you're team will dominate possession as much as you think. This won't be a 60-40 game. I also don't buy into this perpetual myth that if full backs are against good wingers they can't attack. That's not how full backs work. They attack when needed, they don't just run forward and leave space behind them. I also don't like it that the winger is always supposed to be defending the opposition winger.

I'm not saying you won't score. If your team moves the ball around fast without losing it you'll most likely open up the other team. There's a lot of chances in this game and it's a matter of who finishes theirs better.

I'll take a better look at your midfield. Pretty old players you've got there and I generally don't rate them as highly. I genuinely feel that in this day it's a lot harder to stand out as a footballer for your talent as there is such a fierce competition and the standard is so much higher. The pace in which the game is played makes it another game than what your River boys used to play.

We have attacking players, and midfielders, who played in a more possession based team, so they're comfortable playing as such. Stobz has mentioned a couple of times in the OP about counter-attacking. None of his attacking players really thrive in a "hold the ball" set up. Maradona and Henry are both at their best in a direct, counter set up. While I don't claim Barca levels of domination, there would be an advantage there for us to influence the game in our favor.

Also, I'm not playing on the myth of full backs not being able to attack against wingers, but when his only width is offered through those full backs, and they are up against two top tier wingers, they won't be as attack minded as usual. That works particularly well in our favor when Suurbier is one of those full backs, and he's facing Rensenbrink/N. Santos on his flank. As @Chesterlestreet mentioned above...he'd need to compensate for that somewhere, which alters his shape, drags players around, and allows our midfielders to offer an impact also.

As for the who finishes their chances better...the goal scoring threat on both teams is similar...albeit with the way the teams are set up, we have more players capable of getting in to those areas to attack. Not to mention Dasayev and Konsel in goal...we have a big advantage there.

I've provided a bit more info and footage of Antognoni above, I'll do the same for Goncalves. Keep in mind that same standard when looking at Dean and his scoring feats too.

 

[Skizzo]

@Snow, stolen shamelessly from @Balu's write up, with tidbits from Anto

Nestor "Tito" Gonçalves

In 1957, four years before Juan Joya joined Peñarol´s ranks, another club legend started his career. Gonçalves played 574 matches for the "Aurinegros" and never left the club until he retired in 1970. He was an exceptional defensive midfielder who was brilliant in breaking up the play and shielding the defence with a passing range rarely found in Southamerican anchor men. In total he won 9 league titles, 3 copa libertadores and 2 intercontinental Cups, which makes him the most successful footballer in the history of the uruguayan league.

During the reign of Guttmann he captained Peñarol in one of the most controversial and scandalous finals in the history of the copa libertadores. In 1962 after beating the local rival "Nacional", they faced Santos FC in the final round with the chance to win the competition for a 3rd time in a row.

Santos won the first match 2:1 in Montevideo, so Peñarol had to win the return leg to force a decider. Peñarol was leading 3:2, when the brazilian crowd got disgruntled. At the 52nd minute the referee was knocked out after being hit by a bottle. When Carlos Robles (ref) woke up, he decided to abandon the match, but due to very serious menaces of Santos delegates, fans and politics, he was forced to continue the match after a 50 minute delay. The rest of the match was played "unofficially", as the referee himself communicated to the CSF board in the match report.

During this abnormal period, Santos equalised in the 66th minute, when the linesman was knocked unconscious by a bottle, delaying the match again. When Peñarol got a pen, Robles was forced by Santos players and supporters to rectify his decision. Peñarol players including their captain protested, so the ref tells him "Tito, I think we all want to get out of here alive, don't we?" The chaotic and violent match ended 3:3, but the CSF ruled the match 3:2 in favour of Panerol.


One month later both teams faced each other one more time to decide this exceptional final. In Buenos Aires Guttmann´s team was overwhelmed by the outstanding Pele, who scored twice and assisted another goal. Santos won 3:0 and triumphed in this young competition.

Legend. Good writeup, you've done some pretty good research but missed on a key ingredient: that final had three laps of honour.

1) After the second leg in Brazil Santos players did it assuming they had won the tourno. They didn't know the game had been officially ended with a Peñarol win, neither did their fans, which made it possible for Peñarol fans, players and ref to get back home safely.

2) The day the final was scheduled in Buenos Aires, only Peñarol showed up. Walkover, Peñarol surely champions, lap of honour.

3) As it turns out Santos managed to argue the final wasn't official as they were still arguing their case re: the second leg. The truth was Pelé was injured and there was no way Santos wanted to play the final without him, so they kept arguing for an entire month until Pelé was fit again (and Peñarol on a break, i.e. like catching us on July 15th), and only then was the final played. Santos won and for a third time (second for Santos) there was a lap of honour celebrating the same Copa triumph.

Tells you a thing or two about what was demanded of someone to get to the top and stay at the top for a decade back then. You had to be feircely competitive and relish the challenge of playing away at Vila Belmiro, Puerto Sajonia... Hostile stadiums, after a night without any sleep from fans playing drums and chanting all night outside the hotel, to intimidate them and the refereeing team. Police and/or army around the pitch, escorting teams in and out... and all of them fans of the local team themselves and whispering threats in the tunnel, or by the touchline when throwing or kicking a corner. The game you mentioned above itself only got restarted because a CBF official, who was also a Director at Santos and local politician went into the ref's quarters wielding a gun and being very clear if the game wasn't restarted they were all goners.

You win once, twice... but where do you find the motivation to keep enduring that for a decade? It's every bit the attitude and mentality of Ryan Giggs but in the face of significant adversity. Tito played 5 (five, FIVE) Copa Libertadores and Intercontinental Finals in the space of a decade, most of them as captain. That's just insane and only comparable with the achievements of Di Stéfano's Real.

Remarkably, had there been an away goals rule in place back then, he would have won all five Libertadores. Playing away suited him and that team, the hostile atmosphere only made them more formidable than usual.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I also don't buy into this perpetual myth that if full backs are against good wingers they can't attack. That's not how full backs work. They attack when needed, they don't just run forward and leave space behind them. I also don't like it that the winger is always supposed to be defending the opposition winger.

I agree very much with this in general, and it's a point worth making in the context of these draft matches.

But this is a bit different. What we have here is an attacking fullback (arguably the best left back in history, certainly one of them) who is uncommonly good on the ball, and a specialist dribbler (he isn't just generally "offensive", he is capable of leaving his man on his arse), working in combination with a fast winger who is even more of a specialist dribbler: And against this combo stand the pair of Stevie G (who is supposed to contribute offensively in addition to helping out Suurbier) and a generally offensive fullback (a wingback, some would say, in terms of what his ideal role would be) who is ALSO supposed to contribute offensively as per the tacics.

It's close to suicide on that flank if you ask me. And the problem doesn't end there: To prevent that pair from dominating the flank completely, he needs to commit other players - he needs to launch some kind of counter measure which has to cause an imbalance somewhere else, one which can then be exploited. If Reid, for instance, has to involve himself on that same flank - well, gone is the only defensive midfielder in the equation. Nobody there to effectively track any runners: One well timed pass - and you've got a dangerous situation almost by default.

 

[Snow]

We have attacking players, and midfielders, who played in a more possession based team, so they're comfortable playing as such. Stobz has mentioned a couple of times in the OP about counter-attacking. None of his attacking players really thrive in a "hold the ball" set up. Maradona and Henry are both at their best in a direct, counter set up. While I don't claim Barca levels of domination, there would be an advantage there for us to influence the game in our favor.

Also, I'm not playing on the myth of full backs not being able to attack against wingers, but when his only width is offered through those full backs, and they are up against two top tier wingers, they won't be as attack minded as usual. That works particularly well in our favor when Suurbier is one of those full backs, and he's facing Rensenbrink/N. Santos on his flank. As @Chesterlestreet mentioned above...he'd need to compensate for that somewhere, which alters his shape, drags players around, and allows our midfielders to offer an impact also.

As for the who finishes their chances better...the goal scoring threat on both teams is similar...albeit with the way the teams are set up, we have more players capable of getting in to those areas to attack. Not to mention Dasayev and Konsel in goal...we have a big advantage there.

I've provided a bit more info and footage of Antognoni above, I'll do the same for Goncalves. Keep in mind that same standard when looking at Dean and his scoring feats too.

I do keep the standards in mind. I don't think of Dean as much better than Trezeguet. Just think of him as a poacher in his setup.

Stob isn't without width. Henry always went out wide to the left and then cut in with or without the ball. Your team is more balanced but balance isn't always good. The current United team is an obvious example of that. Nothing wrong with the balance in that team or how much possession it has. Even the Barcelona team now and 5 years ago could have had the ball 70% against not so good teams with defenders who apparently are all shit.

The goalkeeper was an aspect I hadn't thought much about. I am doing a lot of reading on my own right now. Something that I usually don't do in these drafts because I'm so simple that I care very little when I'm not playing. With Stobs team I only had to look up Suurbier. No idea who his goalie is but like I said before, I hadn't considered them before which was my mistake. In your team I only really knew the fullbacks and striker.

 

[Snow]

I agree very much with this in general, and it's a point worth making in the context of these draft matches.

But this is a bit different. What we have here is an attacking fullback (arguably the best left back in history, certainly one of them) who is uncommonly good on the ball, and a specialist dribbler (he isn't just generally "offensive", he is capable of leaving his man on his arse), working in combination with a fast winger who is even more of a specialist dribbler: And against this combo stand the pair of Stevie G (who is supposed to contribute offensively in addition to helping out Suurbier) and a generally offensive fullback (a wingback, some would say, in terms of what his ideal role would be) who is ALSO supposed to contribute offensively as per the tacics.

It's close to suicide on that flank if you ask me. And the problem doesn't end there: To prevent that pair from dominating the flank completely, he needs to commit other players - he needs to launch some kind of counter measure which has to cause an imbalance somewhere else, one which can then be exploited. If Reid, for instance, has to involve himself on that same flank - well, gone is the only defensive midfielder in the equation. Nobody there to effectively track any runners: One well timed pass - and you've got a dangerous situation almost by default.

I actually don't disagree with this. The first thing that I took notice off was Stob's formation and tactic with Gerrard so deep and with those instructions. I then looked up Suurbier, whom I wasn't familiar with. I don't agree that they both can't contribute offensively. I do like Gerrard more further up the pitch despite having to help out his wing back, he can do that, but they will also definitely be vulnerable on the right but that's just something he gives up in order to be able to put this amount of pressure up front himself. Stob isn't the type to put up the same kind of balanced 4-2-3-1. I like his team more because he didn't do that. He has that something something edge over Skizzo in my book who's center of the pitch looks very unimpressive. Unimpressive does win games more often than not.

 

[Skizzo]

The goalkeeper was an aspect I hadn't thought much about. I am doing a lot of reading on my own right now. Something that I usually don't do in these drafts because I'm so simple that I care very little when I'm not playing. With Stobs team I only had to look up Suurbier. No idea who his goalie is but like I said before, I hadn't considered them before which was my mistake. In your team I only really knew the fullbacks and striker.

Tbf, keepers are usually an afterthought, so its not like you're the only one Guilty of it myself quite often.

Hopefully I've been able to give some more information on those other players for you. Rensenbrink has appeared in a few drafts, Moreno and Pedernera only one AFAIK. Much more of an information relay needed on our players than Stobz, I will agree with you there

As for the "unimpressive" comment above, both our midfield two are top quality players, held in high regard. Moreno and Pedernera from La Maquina are rated my plenty of people who study South American football history. I'll pull some of those lists/comments etc if you'd like to see.

 

[Snow]

Tbf, keepers are usually an afterthought, so its not like you're the only one Guilty of it myself quite often.

Hopefully I've been able to give some more information on those other players for you. Rensenbrink has appeared in a few drafts, Moreno and Pedernera only one AFAIK. Much more of an information relay needed on our players than Stobz, I will agree with you there

They do matter though, more now than ever which is one of the points of the new scoring system.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'll take a better look at your midfield. Pretty old players you've got there and I generally don't rate them as highly.

If you are talking about Pedernera and Moreno, the closest I can compare them is Hidegkuti and Kocsis, in playing style not talent (though they are reputedly close). The more I read about them, the more they seem like a pioneer to Magyars. Pedernara dropping back to #10 or similar position and Moreno moving up to fill that gap as a forward. The credit to one of the great River Plate sides are given to these two and so I tend to rate them highly.

I don't think Moreno offers real 'winger' width and it'll fall mostly up to Nelinho and that may make hi more susceptible to Henry/Demyanenko.
.

Speaking of Magyars...maybe it's due to my ignorance.... but how much of Magyars success be credited to revolutionary tactics and how much to players talent? This is something that has bugged me for long. The Hidegkuti role is now a standard #10 with players specializing in that position. How much of Hidegkuti (and Pedernara) 'dictating play' can be distinguished from talent to tactics. Not saying they are mugs, but I always had a feeling they had a extra layer of gloss due to revolutionary tactics that opponents have not seen or have adequate counters. But that's probably for another thread.

 

[Snow]

If you are talking about Pedernera and Moreno, the closest I can compare them is Hidegkuti and Kocsis, in playing style not talent (though they are reputedly close). The more I read about them, the more they seem like a pioneer to Magyars. Pedernara dropping back to #10 or similar position and Moreno moving up to fill that gap as a forward. The credit to one of the great River Plate sides are given to these two and so I tend to rate them highly.

I don't think Moreno offers real 'winger' width and it'll fall mostly up to Nelinho and that may make hi more susceptible to Henry/Demyanenko.
.

Speaking of Magyars...maybe it's due to my ignorance.... but how much of Magyars success be credited to revolutionary tactics and how much to players talent? This is something that has bugged me for long. The Hidegkuti role is now a standard #10 with players specializing in that position. How much of Hidegkuti (and Pedernara) 'dictating play' can be distinguished from talent to tactics. Not saying they are mugs, but I always had a feeling they had a extra layer of gloss due to revolutionary tactics that opponents have not seen or have adequate counters. But that's probably for another thread.

The points you bring up is the reason I'm so vary of these all-time drafts. I haven't taken part in them before because I don't like the comparisons being made. I mean some of these players played in teams that played 2-3-5 and against goalkeepers that didn't wear gloves. And speaking of tactics and rules, people speak of the Italian defenses but forget to mention that the offside rules changed drastically in 1990 so in the WC that year the tactics had basically peaked defensively. After the tournament the rules changed and the game gradually got less defensive.

You make a good point about the Brazilian full backs. They mastered that position long before any other nation and only recently has football caught up. They've almost always been this way and those few Brazilian full backs available in this draft are a cut above the rest on the whole.

 

[Skizzo]

If you are talking about Pedernera and Moreno, the closest I can compare them is Hidegkuti and Kocsis, in playing style not talent (though they are reputedly close). The more I read about them, the more they seem like a pioneer to Magyars. Pedernara dropping back to #10 or similar position and Moreno moving up to fill that gap as a forward. The credit to one of the great River Plate sides are given to these two and so I tend to rate them highly.

I don't think Moreno offers real 'winger' width and it'll fall mostly up to Nelinho and that may make hi more susceptible to Henry/Demyanenko.
.

Speaking of Magyars...maybe it's due to my ignorance.... but how much of Magyars success be credited to revolutionary tactics and how much to players talent? This is something that has bugged me for long. The Hidegkuti role is now a standard #10 with players specializing in that position. How much of Hidegkuti (and Pedernara) 'dictating play' can be distinguished from talent to tactics. Not saying they are mugs, but I always had a feeling they had a extra layer of gloss due to revolutionary tactics that opponents have not seen or have adequate counters. But that's probably for another thread.

I'm glad you touched on that, I found this while doing some research on another forum. Some of the "experts" over there were discussing South American players and older players and this came up

↑
The question is which was the best 5 FW ever?

La Maquina or Mighty Magyars?

The team training on Queen Park Ranger's home ground on Loftus road before the huge match. In the far back is Laszlo Budai, Kocsis, Hidegkuti, Czibor and Puskas teeing up the ball.
The Magyar is supposed to be more prolific since La Maquina had no machine scorer in the front-line. While the argentine is known to be more creative.

For combination of players’ individual ability level, I still go for Hungary. I’d not compare side by side since Labruna (inside-left) and Kocsis (Inside-Right) is more similar role even playing in different side.

Kocsis >> Labruna (Don’t need to describe)
Puskas = Moreno (Puskas is much better in scoring while Moreno is also better in technique and much more complete player)
Hidegkuti < Pedernera (Pedernera is more creative and technical player)
Czibor = Loustau (Similar functional ability level)
J. Carlos Munoz = Laszlo Budai (Not quite sure for this one but both are overshadowed by superior teammates)

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The points you bring up is the reason I'm so vary of these all-time drafts. I haven't taken part in them before because I don't like the comparisons being made. I mean some of these players played in teams that played 2-3-5 and against goalkeepers that didn't wear gloves. And speaking of tactics and rules, people speak of the Italian defenses but forget to mention that the offside rules changed drastically in 1990 so in the WC that year the tactics had basically peaked defensively. After the tournament the rules changed and the game gradually got less defensive.

Valid points, I agree it's a compromise, but one I think necessary though not entirely accurate. We'll never be able to have a "fair" draft unless we restrict both teams to same era/players, but that would kill draft games per se. In an all time draft you'd expect to find players in from all modes, 2-3-5 to 4-4-2 to catenaccio to Total Football to Tiki Taka. It's entirely up the voters to decide if a player will be effective or not outside of the tactics he played. Be it Gentile or Pedernara, we've had these discussions before. The effort is on voters to make that bridge from players tactics to current draft managers tactics and vote accordingly.

But in this specific case, I don't think it's too big a comparison. Both teams played a 2-3-5 / 3-2-5 and the position/tactics of players compared were in actual very similar to each other.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm glad you touched on that, I found this while doing some research on another forum. Some of the "experts" over there were discussing South American players and older players and this came up

Come on, that's plain junk. If you include Magyars, it's not South America only. And if Global then Real Madrid with Puskas - di Stefano - Kopa is a clear victor for greatest ever 5 forward line.
Austria with Sindelar - Bican is a notable ignore as is Benfica with Coluna - Eusebio. They are up there in the mix for sure.

 

[Skizzo]

Come on, that's plain junk. If you include Magyars, it's not South America only. And if Global then Real Madrid with Puskas - di Stefano - Kopa is a clear victor for greatest ever 5 forward line.
Austria with Sindelar - Bican is a notable ignore as is Benfica with Coluna - Eusebio. They are up there in the mix for sure.

Settle down, I didn't say it was a definitive answer. I brought it up since you made the comparison between the two, and this was a comparison between the two. I said it was a discussion that people were having on there, and someone highlighted the Magyars and La Maquina.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

comparison between the two

Some of the "experts" over there were discussing South American players and older players and this came up

 

[Skizzo]

Bad wording on my part then, but it was purely to highlight the comparison of the players that you had JUST brought up