The Trayvon Martin shooting

[Raoul]

Here are the facts as we know them today:

- Zimmerman did not know Martins race when he made the call, so profiling is not in play.
- Zimmerman did not make a racial slur so it was racially motivated.
- The dispatcher did not order Zimmerman to do anything, they asked but they have no jurisdiction
- No one saw the confrontation start, so it is not know who threw the first punch.
- The ONLY eye witness saw Martin on top Zimmerman attempting to beat him up, and Zimmerman was screaming for help.
- Martin was shot once in the chest at close range seconds later.
- A Police officer observed Martin had a bloody nose and cut on the back of his head.
- Doctors confirmed Zimmerman had a broken nose and a cut on his head, and after enhancement police are visible of the police video.
- Zimmerman is 5’9” and around 180lbs, Martin was 6’0” and 160lbs.

All other things like character and dodgy witness that didn’t see anything are not going to help the prosecution. So how does a jury find a man guilty based on what we know?

Probably by the same logic under which he is being prosecuted. If it were such an open and shut case of him being innocent, the prosecutor wouldn't waste their time in the first place.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Here are the facts as we know them today:

- Zimmerman did not know Martins race when he made the call, so profiling is not in play.
- Zimmerman did not make a racial slur so it was racially motivated.
- The dispatcher did not order Zimmerman to do anything, they asked but they have no jurisdiction
- No one saw the confrontation start, so it is not know who threw the first punch.
- The ONLY eye witness saw Martin on top Zimmerman attempting to beat him up, and Zimmerman was screaming for help.
- Martin was shot once in the chest at close range seconds later.
- A Police officer observed Martin had a bloody nose and cut on the back of his head.
- Doctors confirmed Zimmerman had a broken nose and a cut on his head, and after enhancement police are visible of the police video.
- Zimmerman is 5’9” and around 180lbs, Martin was 6’0” and 160lbs.

All other things like character and dodgy witness that didn’t see anything are not going to help the prosecution. So how does a jury find a man guilty based on what we know?

I never mentioned the racial bit, maybe you're referring to some of Wibble's earlier points. The rest of your post basically talks about a physical confrontation. I don't think it's really relevant who threw the first punch. But that's perhaps because I cannot make the connection in my brain between being punched in the face (which I have been a few times) and fearing for my life. To me it's simply unimaginable to be involved in a fist fight where I fear of losing my life and therefore resort to shooting that person with a gun.

Zimmermann being or not being injured is fine, I'd give that the images I saw on youtube were blurred. I remember reading, however, that the doctor who examined Martin's body confirmed that he did not find any traces of a fight, no cuts or bruises on Martin's hands, knuckles, etc. Just a wound on his chest.

 

[mjs020294]

. I remember reading, however, that the doctor who examined Martin's body confirmed that he did not find any traces of a fight, no cuts or bruises on Martin's hands, knuckles, etc. Just a wound on his chest.

You must have a bad memory. No doctor has said anything like that. Martins undertaker commrnted several weeks later but he didn't examine the body persay.

 

[Mihajlovic]

You must have a bad memory. No doctor has said anything like that. Martins undertaker commrnted several weeks later but he didn't examine the body persay.

True, it wasn't the doctor, it was the funeral director.

A Miami funeral director says Trayvon Martin’s body showed no signs of a violent brawl.

Richard Kurtz said his examination of the slain Florida teen’s corpse revealed no cuts, scratches or bruises, only a gunshot wound to the chest.

Kurtz’s account appears to contradict George Zimmerman’s claims that he shot Trayvon during a life-and-death struggle.

“We could see no physical signs like there had been a scuffle [or] there had been a fight,” Kurtz told CBS News.

“The hands — I didn’t see any knuckles, bruises or what have you, and that is something we would have covered up if it would have been there.”

Trayvon “looked perfectly normal to me when he came in and the story just does not make sense that he was in this type of scuffle or fight in anything that we could see,” Kurtz added.

Kurtz’s account marked the latest twist in a case that has sparked outrage across the U.S. over the murder of an unarmed black teen.

 

[ukbob]

True, it wasn't the doctor, it was the funeral director.

And so the common sense unfolds!!!

 

[barros]

So the media sent the guy to prison they always show Trayvon 's 12 years old picture, they forget to mention that he had trouble with the law before, always call George by the last name (sounds white) when his mother is from Peru and makes him Hispanic (he doesn't look German that's for sure). Anyway he should had martial art lessons if he wants to play hero.

 

[Cali Red]

So the media sent the guy to prison they always show Trayvon 's 12 years old picture, they forget to mention that he had trouble with the law before, always call George by the last name (sounds white) when his mother is from Peru and makes him Hispanic (he doesn't look German that's for sure). Anyway he should had martial art lessons if he wants to play hero.

No he's white hispanic......

 

[Mihajlovic]

And so the common sense unfolds!!!

Are you implying the funeral director had lied?!

 

[Mihajlovic]

So the media sent the guy to prison they always show Trayvon 's 12 years old picture, they forget to mention that he had trouble with the law before, always call George by the last name (sounds white) when his mother is from Peru and makes him Hispanic (he doesn't look German that's for sure). Anyway he should had martial art lessons if he wants to play hero.

How's Martin previous trouble with the law relevant to this case? What sort of trouble?

 

[Zarlak]

So the media sent the guy to prison they always show Trayvon 's 12 years old picture, they forget to mention that he had trouble with the law before, always call George by the last name (sounds white) when his mother is from Peru and makes him Hispanic (he doesn't look German that's for sure). Anyway he should had martial art lessons if he wants to play hero.

Yeah, Zimmerman had worse trouble with the law before. What his mum being from Peru or him being Hispanic has to do with it I've got no idea.

To be honest, I think the media making sure this doesn't all just disappear away like his last 2 charges mysteriously did is a good thing.

At the end of the day, if he's innocent he's got nothing to fear. MJS doesn't know the full story like none of us do, he's picked the articles he likes best to suit his opinion and glosses over contradictions, and then again we've all done the same on our side. It's a good thing we aren't the judge or jury. It will come out in court.

 

[ukbob]

Are you implying the funeral director had lied?!

Do you know he didn't? Obviously you are convinced that your common sense prevails over all. I am afraid you need to learn the ways of the world when it comes to what you read or glean from the media. Their only goal is to sell newspapers and get the maximum viewers that they can and the same goes with the funeral director. You have no idea how the questions were put to him and how his answers are distorted for sensationalism. For him he will never have had so much publicity and he will get whatever he can for his business.

 

[mjs020294]

Are you implying the funeral director had lied?!

The only thing that will be admissible and relevant is the report from the medical examiner. What a funeral director said he saw without any formal training or an official report will not carry much weight.

And anyway, you can knock someone out without causing too much bruising on your knuckles. Plus there doesn't have to be signs of a great struggle, just the perceived threat is enough.

 

[mjs020294]

Probably by the same logic under which he is being prosecuted. If it were such an open and shut case of him being innocent, the prosecutor wouldn't waste their time in the first place.

Media and political pressure are the main reason there has been charges. Watched a couple of legal analysts comment on this last night, one CNN and the other NBC, both said the case has no chance of succeeding and one actually called the charges "erroneous".

This is going to work out perfectly. Acquittal, followed by race riots and a death or seven, then Zimmerman suing for wrongful arrest and getting a seven figure payout.

 

[mjs020294]

Well it appears there is no new evidence to support the probable cause.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.affidavit.pdf

The prosecutor is basing it all on the fact that Zimmerman supposedly profiled Martin, and his mother says it was Martin screaming on the call.

That is so flimsy its ridiculous. Anyone with ears can listen to the call and its clear he wasn't initially sure Martin was black. There is also an eye witness that says Zimmerman was the one screaming.

It maybe all be true but there is so much reasonable doubt there is no hope of a prosecution. This gets thrown out when the judge reviews the evidence.

 

[Wowi]

Personally I am not too worried about law abiding people with guns killing poeple, it really isn't much of an issue TBH.

And that is why discussing this with you is actually utterly pointless.

Who decides who is considered "law abiding"? You keep mentioning the checks needed to get a CWP, but do you really believe that everyone who passes those checks are saints? People have fooled government agencies like the FBI, but given your blind faith in the CWP checks I'm assuming they're much more thorough than whatever checks the FBI does.

 

[Cali Red]

And that is why discussing this with you is actually utterly pointless.

Who decides who is considered "law abiding"? You keep mentioning the checks needed to get a CWP, but do you really believe that everyone who passes those checks are saints? People have fooled government agencies like the FBI, but given your blind faith in the CWP checks I'm assuming they're much more thorough than whatever checks the FBI does.

Isn't who is considered law abiding pretty self explanatory. It mean someone who abides by the law.

 

[Wowi]

Isn't who is considered law abiding pretty self explanatory. It mean someone who abides by the law.

But how do you know if a person abides by the law? Based on no criminal record? Based on some checks and tests?

mjs said he didn't have problems with "law abiding people with guns killing people", and I don't really understand how you can say that a person is definitely a "law abiding citizen".

 

[Cali Red]

But how do you know if a person abides by the law? Based on no criminal record? Based on some checks and tests?

mjs said he didn't have problems with "law abiding people with guns killing people", and I don't really understand how you can say that a person is definitely a "law abiding citizen".

What? So are we at the point where if you have no criminal record you still have to be considered a potential or probable criminal?

 

[mjs020294]

Who decides who is considered "law abiding"? You keep mentioning the checks needed to get a CWP, but do you really believe that everyone who passes those checks are saints? People have fooled government agencies like the FBI, but given your blind faith in the CWP checks I'm assuming they're much more thorough than whatever checks the FBI does.

The point is crime amongst CWP holders is extremely low, not even blip on the crime stats. Most of the crimes committed by someone with a CWP are fraud and other crimes unrelated to firearms. The most common firearm crime for a CWP holder is accidental brandishing.

The CWP checks include full finger print testing and having them on file forever. Confirmation of your identity by notary public. A check into your medical history for mental illness. And your information and prints are run against the FBI and national crime databases.

There is absolutely no point anyone trying to trick the FBI when it comes to CWP because you can still buy and own guns without one. What would be the point subjecting yourself to those checks, and signing forms confirming you are telling the truth. Your CWP would be meaningless, it would be null and void and you would instantly be charged and given a five year sentence just for carrying the weapon, and probably another five years for lying on the application.

 

[Wowi]

What? So are we at the point where if you have no criminal record you still have to be considered a potential or probable criminal?

Well, yeah. If you decide to shoot and kill someone.

The point is crime amongst CWP holders is extremely low, not even blip on the crime stats. Most of the crimes committed by someone with a CWP are fraud and other crimes unrelated to firearms. The most common firearm crime for a CWP holder is accidental brandishing.

The CWP checks include full finger print testing and having them on file forever. Confirmation of your identity by notary public. A check into your medical history for mental illness. And your information and prints are run against the FBI and national crime databases.

There is absolutely no point anyone trying to trick the FBI when it comes to CWP because you can still buy and own guns without one. What would be the point subjecting yourself to those checks, and signing forms confirming you are telling the truth. Your CWP would be meaningless, it would be null and void and you would instantly be charged and given a five year sentence just for carrying the weapon, and probably another five years for lying on the application.

That's all well and good, and from what I see it's probably a step in the right direction for USA (more control with the guns). I'm just saying that having a CWP doesn't mean that you're a saint and that you'll never abuse your power. There's countless of examples every year where police officers abuse their power for example. I'm sure that by far the most CWP holders have it for the right reasons, but that doesn't mean that there can't be a few dodgy ones as well. I don't know which category Zimmerman is in, but justifying his every action by saying "he has a CWP, so he's a great guy" (I know you haven't actually said that, but much of your defence is based on the fact that he does have a CWP. At least initially) doesn't really make much sense.

 

[Drainy]

Well it appears there is no new evidence to support the probable cause.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.affidavit.pdf

The prosecutor is basing it all on the fact that Zimmerman supposedly profiled Martin, and his mother says it was Martin screaming on the call.

That is so flimsy its ridiculous. Anyone with ears can listen to the call and its clear he wasn't initially sure Martin was black. There is also an eye witness that says Zimmerman was the one screaming.

It maybe all be true but there is so much reasonable doubt there is no hope of a prosecution. This gets thrown out when the judge reviews the evidence.

thought you said Trayvon Martin was trespassing, I took you at your word for that and it turns out he was living at the Retreat and had every right to be there. You been manipulated like you enjoy claiming others are being?
The key line for you is "The facts mentioned in this Affidavit are not a complete recitation of all pertinent facts and evidence in this case but presented for a determination of probable cause for second degree murder" it should be enough to get a trial and it may be a good thing for Zimmerman to have his day(s) in court to be honest

 

[mjs020294]

thought you said Trayvon Martin was trespassing, I took you at your word for that and it turns out he was living at the Retreat and had every right to be there.
\

No I actually asked was it confirmed he lived there, which wasn't known at the time. It was suggested in the initial media reports his father lived in the next community over.

 

[w'or bobby]

No I actually asked was it confirmed he lived there, which wasn't known at the time. It was suggested in the initial media reports his father lived in the next community over.

Mate, you are getting on my wick.

You can't spell for shit.
I mean, for shit.

You are somewhere to the right of Ghenghis Khan.
But you just KNOW it all on this.
That what it takes to get a concealed weapon licence?

Dead man, aged 17.

Can you reserve judgement until we hear some actual evidence in a court of law?

 

[mjs020294]

Mate, you are getting on my wick.

You can't spell for shit.
I mean, for shit.

You are somewhere to the right of Ghenghis Khan.
But you just KNOW it all on this.
That what it takes to get a concealed weapon licence?

Dead man, aged 17.

The irony. I happen to be dyslexic, what would your excuse be.

Can you reserve judgement until we hear some actual evidence in a court of law?

Actually the majority of my posts have pertained to the actual evidence. Many of the other side of the argument was/is based on misinformation: racial slurs, size of the men etc.

As for a trial it may never get there. All the defense team need to establish to the judge is: Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was; and he had reasonable belief he was in great danger.

 

[w'or bobby]

The irony. I happen to be dyslexic, what would your excuse be.




Actually the majority of my posts have pertained to the actual evidence. Many of the other side of the argument was/is based on misinformation: racial slurs, size of the men etc.

As for a trial it may never get there. All the defense team need to establish to the judge is: Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was; and the had reasonable belief he was in great danger.

Dyslexic?

Really?

About what?

 

[w'or bobby]

Licence or license?
English or American spelling?

F**k off wi' yer claims of being an ex-pat.
Fess up, mate, yer a redneck from Florida.

 

[mjs020294]

Licence or license?
English or American spelling?

F**k off wi' yer claims of being an ex-pat.
Fess up, mate, yer a redneck from Florida.

I have US software and it spell checks and corrects to US spellings. Plus when you have to use US spelling all day its easy to just submit and use it all the time.

Happen to have spent 35 years in Manchester and all my family for several generations were born and bred there. As for being a redneck, nope, live in a prestigious gated community that doesn't even allow pick ups.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I have US software and it spell checks and corrects to US spellings. Plus when you have to use US spelling all day its easy to just submit and use it all the time.

Happen to have spent 35 years in Manchester and all my family for several generations were born and bred there. As for being a redneck, nope, live in a prestigious gated community that doesn't even allow pick ups.

I wouldn't be able to live like that

 

[w'or bobby]

I have US software and it spell checks and corrects to US spellings. Plus when you have to use US spelling all day its easy to just submit and use it all the time.

Happen to have spent 35 years in Manchester and all my family for several generations were born and bred there. As for being a redneck, nope, live in a prestigious gated community that doesn't even allow pick ups.

You poor twat!

 

[mjs020294]

I wouldn't be able to live like that

Well officially commercial vehicles and pick ups are not allowed.....but in recent years they have started to overlook them if they are nice. I fecking hate pickups, loved the fact we had none here ten years ago.

 

[mjs020294]

You poor twat!

You need to contribute or move along.

 

[Cali Red]

What's wrong with a pick up? I can see not wanting commercial trucks parked on the streets but a pick up? I'm guessing the same people that hate that own Suburbans, Tahoes, Range Rovers, etc. Still big vehicles.

And everyone hates pick ups but as soon as they want to move something they hit you up.....

Haven't owned one for a while but I liked having one.


Sorry, way off topic.

 

[w'or bobby]

Well officially commercial vehicles and pick ups are not allowed.....but in recent years they have started to overlook them if they are nice. I fecking hate pickups, loved the fact we had none here ten years ago.

!!!

Thank you so much for an almost perfect description of what is sad about America today.

It saddens me that we support the same team.

My door is never locked.
If someone rings, it means it is not a friend,

We can always find food for everyone.
C'mon in.

That is my way.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

!!!

Thank you so much for an almost perfect description of what is sad about America today.

It saddens me that we support the same team.

My door is never locked.
If someone rings, it means it is not a friend,

We can always find food for everyone.
C'mon in.

That is my way.

Licence or license?
English or American spelling?

F**k off wi' yer claims of being an ex-pat.
Fess up, mate, yer a redneck from Florida.

You poor twat!

Quebec. Where they welcome you with the insults.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Well officially commercial vehicles and pick ups are not allowed.....but in recent years they have started to overlook them if they are nice. I fecking hate pickups, loved the fact we had none here ten years ago.

Nothing is more garish than those Cadillac pick-ups. That should never be allowed.

 

[mjs020294]

Nothing is more garish than those Cadillac pick-ups.

I think they started relaxing the rules around about the same time those were introduced.

 

[w'or bobby]

Quebec. Where they welcome you with the insults.

You must admit he's been leading with his chin, and that for a wee while.

Twattishness deserves recognition, non?

Telling me that because he lives in Florida and has a concealed weapons permit gives him some special insight is tantamount to an invitation to me, especially when he writes with a Secondaire 5 weak student type of argument.

I haven't a clue what happened in Florida.
All I know is that some people seem to be gun-favourable.

I am not.

30 + years of martial arts training gives me the impression that those who are are weak-sisters.

So, I finally get me nipples erect and call a gun-toting twat, in my opinion.

I may be wrong.

But we shall see.

Manchester has bred idiots like every other part of this planet.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

You must admit he's been leading with his chin, and that for a wee while.

Twattishness deserves recognition, non?

Telling me that because he lives in Florida and has a concealed weapons permit gives him some special insight is tantamount to an invitation to me, especially when he writes with a Secondaire 5 weak student type of argument.

I haven't a clue what happened in Florida.
All I know is that some people seem to be gun-favourable.

I am not.

30 + years of martial arts training gives me the impression that those who are are weak-sisters.

So, I finally get me nipples erect and call a gun-toting twat, in my opinion.

I may be wrong.

But we shall see.

Manchester has bred idiots like every other part of this planet.

Not really apropos of the CE forum.

After that post, it's au revoir mon ami.

 

[w'or bobby]

And you levitate to this thread why? You should seriously take a look at your own posts, not exactly coherent grammatically correct masterpieces.

What I am suggesting is that you don't either.

Geographical proximity doesn't trump ignorance,

Hang tough.

The murderer or not ?

Let's see.

 

[mjs020294]

What I am suggesting is that you don't either.

Geographical proximity doesn't trump ignorance,

We are getting much more coverage down here. I have seen all of the witnesses talk and be questioned. I am also very familiar with the SYG law because two hours of the CWP class was dedicated to it.

Its noticeable that much of the national/international media are still using pictures of a 13-year-old Martin and adding "black" and "White" to all their references of the two men.