Thiago Alc*ntara | Still exists

[Libano]

That's just the way modern football has developed. You have specialists, not generalists.

There is some truth to this statement. The need for a box-to-box midfielder has diminished since passing has only become more important and the ball always moves faster than a player. However, when comparing players of different eras, you have to compare their impact within their specific era. Ballack without a doubt had more of an impact back then than Thiago does now. He was absolutely irreplaceable. Thiago is a 'nice-to-have' player but Bayern or the Spanish national team did just as well playing without him. In Hollywood terms it is the difference between a main character and a supporting role.

I totally understand your opinion on Thiago, though, it's not an outrageous claim to think so highly of him. These hard-to-press ball distribution machine type of players are extremely useful in today's football.

 

[harms]

Ballack without a doubt had more of an impact back then than Thiago does now. He was absolutely irreplaceable. Thiago is a 'nice-to-have' player but Bayern or the Spanish national team did just as well playing without him. In Hollywood terms it is the difference between a main character and a supporting role.

Well, Ballack played for significantly weaker teams. Whenever Thiago would've been able to impact the game for Germany/Leverkusen/Munich in a way that Ballack did is another question (probably not). But then again, Gerrard was more of a match-winner than Scholes was and you'd rather have Gerrard than Scholes in a dysfunctional underdog looking for glory but it doesn't make him a better player.

 

[do.ob]

Kroos is a bit better in terms of technique and passing, but that's it.

Schweinsteiger was vastly superior as a leader.

No way Germany wins that WC against Argentina without Schweinsteiger's sheer willpower in that final.

Kroos has always come across as somewhat of a coward.

Wasn't he one of the players that were too afraid to shoot a penalty against Chelsea in the 2012 CL final?

Missing your penalty is one thing, but not even having the balls to shoot (even Neuer took a pen) is ... whew.

As good a player as he was at his peak I find this glorification of Schweinsteiger mind-boggling to be honest. Until the second part of his 20s he was considered a failed talent as a winger, only then did he find his home in the center and it wasn't until Bayern rounded off their midfield pairing with the signing of Javi Martinez and the resulting CL win that he was widely considered a top player. That was in 12/13, after the 2014 WC injuries took their toll and his career as a top player was already over. We're talking about a two year peak here, yet people compare him to Kroos and Ballack, who can both look back at a whole decade or more at the top.

And as far as the vastly superior leader goes: "We have our captains [Lahm, Schweinsteiger], but Mark van Bommel was a true leader. Someone like that is missing now. (c) Arjen Robben in 2011.
It's hard to assess leadership from the outside, but if he did turn into one eventually it was at the very end of his career as well. For the most part he and Podolski formed Germany's immature dynamic duo.

 

[Libano]

Well, Ballack played for significantly weaker teams. Whenever Thiago would've been able to impact the game for Germany/Leverkusen/Munich in a way that Ballack did is another question (probably not). But then again, Gerrard was more of a match-winner than Scholes was and you'd rather have Gerrard than Scholes in a dysfunctional underdog looking for glory but it doesn't make him a better player.

Then we have to first agree on what the definition of a 'better player' is. I think it's different for all of us and that alone accounts for our differences in opinion. Some people value technique over character or power over intelligence. They are all valid.

Take for example Dennis Bergkamp vs Alan Shearer. Dennis was a wizard, widely regarded as one of his generation's greats. Yet Shearer, a blue-collar, no-frills workhorse, edges him on pure goal-scoring career stats. You could argue that that makes him the better striker of the two.

Football is complex and subjective.

 

[Zehner]

There is some truth to this statement. The need for a box-to-box midfielder has diminished since passing has only become more important and the ball always moves faster than a player. However, when comparing players of different eras, you have to compare their impact within their specific era. Ballack without a doubt had more of an impact back then than Thiago does now. He was absolutely irreplaceable. Thiago is a 'nice-to-have' player but Bayern or the Spanish national team did just as well playing without him. In Hollywood terms it is the difference between a main character and a supporting role.

I totally understand your opinion on Thiago, though, it's not an outrageous claim to think so highly of him. These hard-to-press ball distribution machine type of players are extremely useful in today's football.

Likewise, I can see why you rate Ballack that highly. I mean, he's a childhood idol of mine so obviously I hold him in high regard as well.

But yeah, impact in football is very hard to quantify. I believe Thiago and Kroos have more absolute impact on their teams while Ballack had more relative impact and that is because he played in worse squads. As I said, Ballack played in the Bundesliga during a very weak phase. Kroos would've been the best player in the league and in the national team by distance as well in that era. Same goes for Thiago. Ballack then went to Chelsea to play second fiddle to Lampard - and he was 29 back then, the same age Thiago is now, so he was still in his prime. IMO, Kroos was more important to a team that won three consecutive CL titles than Ballack was to a team that was good but still far off Zidane's Real Madrid side. And I think Thiago was just as important for Bayern last season as Kroos was back then. You can argue that he first should replicate that feat before you can put him in the same tier but then you can say the same for Schweinsteiger, for example.

I think another way to look at it is how they compare to other players of their era. Ballack was world class, no doubt, but I'd say throughout his career there were many CMs/CAMs who were better than him. If we only count box to box midfielders/center mids, then I'd say Nedved, Gerrard, Scholes, Keane, Davids, Viera, Deco, Pirlo and later on Iniesta and Xavi bested him from the top of my mind. But throughout his time at Bayern and Leverkusen, he played in a more advanced role and then you must compare him with Zidane, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Rivaldo, Lampard, etc. and in that case it's pretty clear I think. Yet it's very hard to name players who are ahead of Kroos during his time. He's quite clearly the best CM behind Modric since his move to Madrid and the two are the closest to Xavi and Iniesta under Pep we've witnessed. And Thiago comes next if you ask me. So Ballack is maybe a top 10 midfielder of the 2000 - 2010 decade while Kroos is clearly a top 5 midfielder of the 2010 - 2020 decade. Thiago edges the top 5 for me, too, but you can debate that. However, he's definitely in the top 10.

I also think Ballack wasted very important years in the Bundesliga to be honest. Between ~2003 and ~2008, the Bundesliga just wasn't a quality league. When Bayern brought in Ribery and later on Robben, that felt like an insane uplift in quality. I hadn't seen such players in the league up until then. There was also Diego at Bremen who looked like a world beater talent and the golden German generation consisting of Özil, Müller, Hummels, Neuer, etc. slowly entered the scene. Van Gaal as well who turned Bayern into a CL contender and gave them a philosophy. And Klopp's career began to really pick up speed around that time, too. Watching Ballack play never created the same feeling to me. There was suddenly a different quality and spirit of hope to German football. Meanwhile Ballack looked like a very good player for Chelsea but not the irreplaceable high performer he was for Bayern and Germany. I mean, there were so many players who played great in the Bundesliga during Ballack's time but it felt crazy to suggest they were good enough for top clubs. Ailton, Micoud, Marcelinho, Ze Roberto, D'Alessandro, Lincoln, Makaay, Klasnic, Klose, Rosicky, Hleb etc. all dominated the Bundesliga but at times didn't even make their national teams let alone making their starting eleven. That is important context, especially since Ballack quite obviously didn't stand out at Chelsea. Sure, Bayern did it for the longest time and was regarded the best player of the league back then but at times he was bested, e. g. by Micoud or Hleb, over the course of a season. That's very important context for me when ranking Ballack.

 

[kaiser1]

I mean, I'm a Leverkusen fan. Was still a child back then but it's not like I haven't eitnessed all that myself. And I think it's quite a stretch to suggest Ballack was the best in 2002. You're basically saying he was better than Zidane, young Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Nedved, Davids, Scholes, Keane, Viera etc. and that's IMO quite a stretch.

It's true that Ballack was a very complete player and could really drag a team with him but I don't think that this is so important in the end because top players play with top players after all. Kroos and Thiago never had Ballack's scoring capabilities but they are specialists and extremely good in what they do best. As I said, Kroos was one of the best players in the team that had the most successful run of form in recent history. Ballack never proved himself in such a team and I don't think he would've played there since they had enough goal scorers and needed one to pull the strings. And Kroos is much better at doing it. Same goes for Thiago, but he's less proven than Kroos. That's just the way modern football has developed. You have specialists, not generalists.

In 2002 Ballack was better than all of them. He was actually voted the UEFA midfielder of the year. He went to the world cup and was again the best midfielder in the tournament
Which of those you named ever had such impact in any season in their entire career

Would Kroos and Thiago be able to carry a Leverkusen Bayern of that time or even Germany of that era? Ballack did carry Germany to 2 finals and 1 semi
Ballack was one of the irreplaceable at Mourinho Chelsea. That Chelsea was at par with most teams in status

Pre Kroos Madrid just won a CL and we can say Bayern won the CL 2013 without Kroos since he got injured from the quarter finals

Madrid won the CL just before Kroos joined and continued winning after Kroos
In the Madrid team that won 3 in a row, Will say Ramos Marcelo Casemiro, Modric Ronaldo were obviously more important

Thiago is barely a regular for Spain and this is them not being at their 08-2012 peaks

 

[Piratesoup]

As good a player as he was at his peak I find this glorification of Schweinsteiger mind-boggling to be honest. Until the second part of his 20s he was considered a failed talent as a winger, only then did he find his home in the center and it wasn't until Bayern rounded off their midfield pairing with the signing of Javi Martinez and the resulting CL win that he was widely considered a top player. That was in 12/13, after the 2014 WC injuries took their toll and his career as a top player was already over. We're talking about a two year peak here, yet people compare him to Kroos and Ballack, who can both look back at a whole decade or more at the top.

And as far as the vastly superior leader goes: "We have our captains [Lahm, Schweinsteiger], but Mark van Bommel was a true leader. Someone like that is missing now. (c) Arjen Robben in 2011.
It's hard to assess leadership from the outside, but if he did turn into one eventually it was at the very end of his career as well. For the most part he and Podolski formed Germany's immature dynamic duo.

Spot on. I never quite understood Schweinsteigers pretty rapid ascent into Bayerns Pantheon of Greats, I still don't get the "Fußballgott"-moniker. He was a brilliant CM for a couple of seasons and left it all on the pitch, sure, but he wasn't a decade dominating beast. I'd already rank Kimmich higher in terms of overall quality.

 

[2ndTouch]

In 2002 Ballack was better than all of them. He was actually voted the UEFA midfielder of the year. He went to the world cup and was again the best midfielder in the tournament
Which of those you named ever had such impact in any season in their entire career

It should be mentioned that this was by far his peak year, and the Ballack we got at Bayern never reached those heights. I also remember his stupid insistence on being played as a 10, despite sucking there most of the time.
The void ctreated by his departure turned out to be of rather insignificant nature, and in consequence, his spell at our club is nothing more than a footnote in history.

 

[B20]

As good a player as he was at his peak I find this glorification of Schweinsteiger mind-boggling to be honest. Until the second part of his 20s he was considered a failed talent as a winger, only then did he find his home in the center and it wasn't until Bayern rounded off their midfield pairing with the signing of Javi Martinez and the resulting CL win that he was widely considered a top player. That was in 12/13, after the 2014 WC injuries took their toll and his career as a top player was already over. We're talking about a two year peak here, yet people compare him to Kroos and Ballack, who can both look back at a whole decade or more at the top.

And as far as the vastly superior leader goes: "We have our captains [Lahm, Schweinsteiger], but Mark van Bommel was a true leader. Someone like that is missing now. (c) Arjen Robben in 2011.
It's hard to assess leadership from the outside, but if he did turn into one eventually it was at the very end of his career as well. For the most part he and Podolski formed Germany's immature dynamic duo.

Well said. His flame burned quite briefly really.

 

[2ndTouch]

Well said. His flame burned quite briefly really.

A bit longer than he's suggesting. He's been a top midfielder since WC 2010

 

[SilentStrike]

I'd disagree with some here. Schweinsteiger's peak was shorter than most top players (though not by much), but his peak is quite incredible really. In his peak of 4 years (2010-2014) he played 3 Champions League finals (won one but it should have been two really), and a World Cup final that will forever be remembered by his legendary performance.

Not many midfielders ever have achieved such heights at their peak. And besides, 4 years isn't even that uncommon of a peak. I'd say Xavi's peak was only 4 years as well.

Even an alltime great midfielder like Matthaus that is also lauded for longetivity has played in different positions on midfield (even defence) in order to accommodate to his skillset. He wouldn't have been able to be world class in CM for the entirety of 20 years.

 

[saivet]

What's the situation with him? How serious is his injury?

 

[Feed Me]

Injury prone player.

 

[DoubleDinhos]

Honestly when you look at the pictures of that tackle from Richarlison it's no surprise he's been out for a month. Nothing to do with any prior injury record he was just on the receiving end of nasty challenge.

Richarlison was lucky Pickford took all the heat from that game.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Lebo]

So people actually rate Ballack lower than Tiago and Kroos? The same Ballack who was Germany’s best player in 2002 where some people even believe the final could have been much closer with him?
Also best player for Germany in 2006? When has Tiago and Kroos ever reached such heights? Sure they are great players but to say him and Kroos are better than Shweinsteiger and Ballack is just pushing it.

the transition from Ballack to Shweinsteiger was seemless but after Shweinsteiger retirement everything has been downhill for that team partly because Kroos and company are disappointing in midfield

 

[Relevated]

So people actually rate Ballack lower than Tiago and Kroos? The same Ballack who was Germany’s best player in 2002 where some people even believe the final could have been much closer with him?
Also best player for Germany in 2006? When has Tiago and Kroos ever reached such heights? Sure they are great players but to say him and Kroos are better than Shweinsteiger and Ballack is just pushing it.

the transition from Ballack to Shweinsteiger was seemless but after Shweinsteiger retirement everything has been downhill for that team partly because Kroos and company are disappointing in midfield

People forget how good schweinsteiger was. More recent players will usually always be rated higher.

 

[ROFLUTION]

So people actually rate Ballack lower than Tiago and Kroos? The same Ballack who was Germany’s best player in 2002 where some people even believe the final could have been much closer with him?
Also best player for Germany in 2006? When has Tiago and Kroos ever reached such heights? Sure they are great players but to say him and Kroos are better than Shweinsteiger and Ballack is just pushing it.

the transition from Ballack to Shweinsteiger was seemless but after Shweinsteiger retirement everything has been downhill for that team partly because Kroos and company are disappointing in midfield

I rate Ballack higher than Thiago. Probably Kroos too. I somehow think Thiago has something quite unfulfilled about him

 

[cyberman]

Klopp on Thiago: "On that day when he got injured v Everton, after the scan there was good news & bad news. Nothing broken or ruptured but it was still a massive impact on the knee. It's still not okay. I can't say exactly when he will be fine but it'll take a few weeks still."


Still not ok? This is more serious than whats being let on imo

 

[Dumbstar]

Klopp on Thiago: "On that day when he got injured v Everton, after the scan there was good news & bad news. Nothing broken or ruptured but it was still a massive impact on the knee. It's still not okay. I can't say exactly when he will be fine but it'll take a few weeks still."


Still not ok? This is more serious than whats being let on imo

It is serious when your best player won't be playing for months. It was a cnut's tackle by a huge cnut. And he's not even the biggest cnut at his club.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

It is serious when your best player won't be playing for months. It was a cnut's tackle by a huge cnut. And he's not even the biggest cnut at his club.

Is it the same knee he had surgery on?

 

[JJ12]

It is serious when your best player won't be playing for months. It was a cnut's tackle by a huge cnut. And he's not even the biggest cnut at his club.

And those cnuts are the nicer cnuts of the City - what a cnuty city

 

[BigDunc9]

It is serious when your best player won't be playing for months. It was a cnut's tackle by a huge cnut. And he's not even the biggest cnut at his club.

Maybe all the idiot kopites will finally stop gloating about Gerrards tackle on Naismith after all these years.

 

[Pep's Suit]

What's happening there? How bad is that injury? Played only one game in last three months.

 

[RobinLFC]

What's happening there? How bad is that injury? Played only one game in last three months.

He’s back in full training now. Will probably start / be on the bench on Sunday.

 

[Dumbstar]

He’s back in full training now. Will probably start / be on the bench on Sunday.

We were trying to keep that quiet for a few days so as not to spoil everyone's Christmas.

 

[el_loco_bielsa]

We were trying to keep that quiet for a few days so as not to spoil everyone's Christmas.

He should prove transformational in these games against massed defences.

Part of the problem with pushing Fabinho back into defence is being unable to keep sides pinned back in their first third as effectively.

Thiago allows the same but with more effective spreading of play both vertically and out to the wings. Ideally I’d have both next to each other as Fabinho is better at winning the ball back.

 

[Speedy30]

He won't be involved at all on Sunday according to Klopp but should be back shortly which is a huge bonus going into these Christmas fixtures

 

[Zehner]

So people actually rate Ballack lower than Tiago and Kroos? The same Ballack who was Germany’s best player in 2002 where some people even believe the final could have been much closer with him?
Also best player for Germany in 2006? When has Tiago and Kroos ever reached such heights? Sure they are great players but to say him and Kroos are better than Shweinsteiger and Ballack is just pushing it.

the transition from Ballack to Shweinsteiger was seemless but after Shweinsteiger retirement everything has been downhill for that team partly because Kroos and company are disappointing in midfield

Thiago has the highest ceiling but is injured too often. Kroos overall has had the best career and the highest 'average level'. Ballack is the mot spectacular but I'll take the full control and pressing resistance of Thiago and Kroos over Ballack's goal threat. For me this is the bread and butter for a world class midfielder, everything else is a bonus.

I think Ballack is better at lifting a bad team up a level but in a world class team and you need specialists in midfield who absorb pressing and ensure you're the dominant team, Thiago and Kroos are a tier above Ballack. Similarly to Iniesta/Xavi to Gerrard/Lampard.

 

[TheReligion]

He won't be involved at all on Sunday according to Klopp but should be back shortly which is a huge bonus going into these Christmas fixtures

Forgot he signed for you tbh

 

[Lebo]

Thiago has the highest ceiling but is injured too often. Kroos overall has had the best career and the highest 'average level'. Ballack is the mot spectacular but I'll take the full control and pressing resistance of Thiago and Kroos over Ballack's goal threat. For me this is the bread and butter for a world class midfielder, everything else is a bonus.

I think Ballack is better at lifting a bad team up a level but in a world class team and you need specialists in midfield who absorb pressing and ensure you're the dominant team, Thiago and Kroos are a tier above Ballack. Similarly to Iniesta/Xavi to Gerrard/Lampard.

I don’t think the German team of 2002 would’ve done better with Tiago/Kroos over Ballack do you?
On the other hand , I don’t see why Ballack can’t fit into the current BM team / 2018 Madrid and offer equally good if not better service.
Shweinsteiger actually proved it by playing for a Bayern side that reached 3 champions league finals winning one and outplaying Barca in one of those. He was never a specialist midfielder but and all rounder. His partners during that time were Van Bommel, Guistavo and Martinez.

honestly I feel like Xavi, Scholes and Pirlo are giving people a wrong expectation of what a midfielder is supposed to be like.The all rounders like Keane, Viera, Ballack, Shweinsteiger, Gerrard, Verratti, Essien Vidal etc can play football at the highest level and in most cases better than specialist midfielders with the exception of few generational talents

 

[AneRu]

I don’t think the German team of 2002 would’ve done better with Tiago/Kroos over Ballack do you?
On the other hand , I don’t see why Ballack can’t fit into the current BM team / 2018 Madrid and offer equally good if not better service.
Shweinsteiger actually proved it by playing for a Bayern side that reached 3 champions league finals winning one and outplaying Barca in one of those. He was never a specialist midfielder but and all rounder. His partners during that time were Van Bommel, Guistavo and Martinez.

honestly I feel like Xavi, Scholes and Pirlo are giving people a wrong expectation of what a midfielder is supposed to be like.The all rounders like Keane, Viera, Ballack, Shweinsteiger, Gerrard, Verratti, Essien Vidal etc can play football at the highest level and in most cases better than specialist midfielders with the exception of few generational talents

Agree with the last part, a midfield duo of Viera - Keane or Essien - Schweinsteiger would overrun any variant of the Scholes -Xavi/ Xavi - Pirlo etc. The added advantage of having two all rounders like Viera and Keane is that you can then have a 9.5 like Rooney, even a pure 10 like Begkamp to partner a top striker thus playing a 4-4-2 but still having the athleticism to match a 4-3-3.

 

[Feed Me]

Injury prone flop so far.

What are his wages?

 

[Klopper76]

Injury prone flop so far.

What are his wages?

He’s had COVID and got taken out by another player which has led him to missing the first third of the season. Hardly injury prone. Just unlucky.

He‘s back in training and should be back after West Brom (Newcastle I think).

 

[Klopper76]

Maybe all the idiot kopites will finally stop gloating about Gerrards tackle on Naismith after all these years.

Still find it astonishing he didn’t get a red for that.

 

[Feed Me]

He’s had COVID and got taken out by another player which has led him to missing the first third of the season. Hardly injury prone. Just unlucky.

He‘s back in training and should be back after West Brom (Newcastle I think).

I was only winding it up.

Merry Crimbo!

 

[Klopper76]

I was only winding it up.

Merry Crimbo!

You got me.

It‘s still Xmas Eve where I am but Merry Christma!

 

[simonhch]

I don’t think the German team of 2002 would’ve done better with Tiago/Kroos over Ballack do you?
On the other hand , I don’t see why Ballack can’t fit into the current BM team / 2018 Madrid and offer equally good if not better service.
Shweinsteiger actually proved it by playing for a Bayern side that reached 3 champions league finals winning one and outplaying Barca in one of those. He was never a specialist midfielder but and all rounder. His partners during that time were Van Bommel, Guistavo and Martinez.

honestly I feel like Xavi, Scholes and Pirlo are giving people a wrong expectation of what a midfielder is supposed to be like.The all rounders like Keane, Viera, Ballack, Shweinsteiger, Gerrard, Verratti, Essien Vidal etc can play football at the highest level and in most cases better than specialist midfielders with the exception of few generational talents

I agree with this. A peak double pivot of Keane and Viera or Keane and Schweinsteiger would be preposterously brilliant and fearsome. The engine, drive, dominance, and determine of that combo, plus their frankly excellent technical ability would be instantly the basis for the best midfield in the world. You could put a true free roaming playmakier in front of them and not worry about balance, because those two can do the work of theee. They can defend, and attack. It would give you the platform in the modern game to indulge a Cantona or Beegkamp. People also forget the ability those players had to drive forwards with the ball with purpose.

 

[Zehner]

I don’t think the German team of 2002 would’ve done better with Tiago/Kroos over Ballack do you?
On the other hand , I don’t see why Ballack can’t fit into the current BM team / 2018 Madrid and offer equally good if not better service.
Shweinsteiger actually proved it by playing for a Bayern side that reached 3 champions league finals winning one and outplaying Barca in one of those. He was never a specialist midfielder but and all rounder. His partners during that time were Van Bommel, Guistavo and Martinez.

honestly I feel like Xavi, Scholes and Pirlo are giving people a wrong expectation of what a midfielder is supposed to be like.The all rounders like Keane, Viera, Ballack, Shweinsteiger, Gerrard, Verratti, Essien Vidal etc can play football at the highest level and in most cases better than specialist midfielders with the exception of few generational talents

I think this is revisionism. Schweinsteiger was no allrounder. His incredible WC final shaped his perception as such but in general, he was neither a defensive/physical force nor a goal threat from midfield. He's essentially a less skilled version of Kroos. Also worth mentioning that Schweinsteiger was seen as a mentally weak underperformer until van Gaal came in and was more or less finished 5 years later.

And no, I don't think the 2002 team would've been better if you replaced Ballack with Kroos or Thiago but I also think Kroos' Madrid and Germany as well as Thiago's Bayern would've been worse sides with Ballack in the team. I also wonder what gives you the perception that players like Keane, Viera, Vidal etc. are better midfielders. Given how the last 12 years or so were completely dominated by midfielders like Kroos and co. Ballack is far too vulnerable for pressing compared to Kroos, Thiago and the likes, and that's the heavy lifting a midfielder in a top team has to do. The CL final between Bayern and PSG for example was clearly won in midfield with Thiago being the best player on the pitch. No way Ballack could've had such a performance.

Another way of looking at it is comparing where those players ranked during their time. Kroos was commonly seen as a top 2 midfielder together with Modric for at least 4 or 5 years. Thiago is probably currently without real competition for that spot. Ballack never entered those spheres. Tgere were always quite a bunch of midfielders clearly ahead of him. A great player and one of my boyhood idols but his legacy is enhanced by the fact that he played during the weakest phase of German football, both internationally and domestically.

 

[Davie Moyes]

I think this is revisionism. Schweinsteiger was no allrounder. His incredible WC final shaped his perception as such but in general, he was neither a defensive/physical force nor a goal threat from midfield. He's essentially a less skilled version of Kroos. Also worth mentioning that Schweinsteiger was seen as a mentally weak underperformer until van Gaal came in and was more or less finished 5 years later.

And no, I don't think the 2002 team would've been better if you replaced Ballack with Kroos or Thiago but I also think Kroos' Madrid and Germany as well as Thiago's Bayern would've been worse sides with Ballack in the team. I also wonder what gives you the perception that players like Keane, Viera, Vidal etc. are better midfielders. Given how the last 12 years or so were completely dominated by midfielders like Kroos and co. Ballack is far too vulnerable for pressing compared to Kroos, Thiago and the likes, and that's the heavy lifting a midfielder in a top team has to do. The CL final between Bayern and PSG for example was clearly won in midfield with Thiago being the best player on the pitch. No way Ballack could've had such a performance.

Another way of looking at it is comparing where those players ranked during their time. Kroos was commonly seen as a top 2 midfielder together with Modric for at least 4 or 5 years. Thiago is probably currently without real competition for that spot. Ballack never entered those spheres. Tgere were always quite a bunch of midfielders clearly ahead of him. A great player and one of my boyhood idols but his legacy is enhanced by the fact that he played during the weakest phase of German football, both internationally and domestically.

Some over rating of the tippy tappy technical type players whilst underrating the all round midfield generals going on here Zehner.

You make it sound like Ballack, Keane and Viera were just midfield cloggers when they had fantastic technical ability to go with the rest of their game.

Even Bayern fans have never rated Thiago as high as you are. Thiago's hype seemed to rise as soon it became known he did not want to renew with Bayern.

You question Schweiny's mentality when I'd say it was one of his strengths. What evidence do you have Ballack was not press resistance.

We have not had any all round midfielders of the Keane and Viera ilk in the last 12 odd years hence Modric etc have been the standouts more recently.

Put it this way I would have picked Keane and Viera as a two out of the players being discussed here.

 

[Zehner]

Some over rating of the tippy tappy technical type players whilst underrating the all round midfield generals going on here Zehner.

You make it sound like Ballack, Keane and Viera were just midfield cloggers when they had fantastic technical ability to go with the rest of their game.

Even Bayern fans have never rated Thiago as high as you are. Thiago's hype seemed to rise as soon it became known he did not want to renew with Bayern.

You question Schweiny's mentality when I'd say it was one of his strengths. What evidence do you have Ballack was not press resistance.

We have not had any all round midfielders of the Keane and Viera ilk in the last 12 odd years hence Modric etc have been the standouts more recently.

Put it this way I would have picked Keane and Viera as a two out of the players being discussed here.

In the same way I could say that you're overrating the kick'n'rush box to box midfielders. So let's remain reasonable.

I'm not saying that my opinion is broadly shared. It's unpopular but that doesn't make it untrue necessarily.

Anyway, we didn't have a player like Keane or Viera for over a decade since football has evolved. Those players have died out and were replaced by a different type of midfielder at the very top. Juventus was probably the team that ran a midfield of such all rounders most successfully with bames like Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio, Khedira, Matuidi etc. and they were dominated time and again by Barca, Real and Bayern. Never able to overcome a well drilled midfield of technical and pressing resistant midfielders the kind I'm talking about. And that's the development in the last 12 years or so: Systems are only getting more and more important and hence specialists are better than generalists.

And I'm not questioning Schweinsteiger's mentality. I'm merely pointing out that people like to forget the first 6 or 7 or so years of his career as well as the fact that he was bo allrounder whatsoever.

Also, Ballack simply wasn't particularly press resistant. He had great strengthes like his long passing, his long shots, his two footedness, his heading ability and his physicality but he wasn't agile with the ball at his feet nor one of those midfielders who found solutions in the tightest of spaces.