Thiago Motta - Bologna

[Berbaclass]

You argue like a manipulative husband or wife, no need to apologise I'm legitimately just baffled that this is how you decide go respond to things you disagree with and don't think it's incredibly transparent.

"I was just taking pity" amusing stuff

I was just amused by your weird Brexit rhetoric, Ingurland good, foreign teams bad

To say the Serie A is lower than Championship level doesn't deserve a serious discussion because it's quite simply ludicrous.

For someone capable of such 'drastic' opinions you also seem to have a relatively thin skin. I posted a and you completely lost the plot.

 

[Berbaclass]

Yeah it was framed in a weird way. The Serie A is a slightly higher level as I have said the entire time. As such the question is not particularly relevant.

It is just closer to the Championship than it is to the Premier League.

Nah it's just a fact that the Serie A is a really, really rubbish league these days.

Ahh good, now you're starting to row back. At least you've seen how wide of the mark you are. Fair play.

 

[Lay]

Yes I chose a username like 7 years ago mostly cause I like alliteration. You really got me there, no one who's every disagreed with me on here has ever used that either.

Nah just found it funny how you're going on about hypothetical scenarios and using words like 'fact' and 'logic'. Then getting wound up and sarcastically saying it's the best league ever even though no one argued it is.

You're literally just saying your opinion but said "it's a fact Serie A is a rubbish league". So your opinion is fact, interesting that you're then saying @Berbaclass is the manipulative husband

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I was just amused by your weird Brexit rhetoric, Ingurland good, foreign teams bad

To say the Serie A is lower than Championship level doesn't deserve a serious discussion because it's quite simply ludicrous.

For someone capable of such 'drastic' opinions you also seem to have a relatively thin skin. I posted a and you completely lost the plot.

Brexit? England is rubbish at a load of things. It does happen to have a really, really good football league. Does thinking that make me a member of the BNP?

I've never said the Serie A is a lower level than the Championship.

You seem more obsessed about me pointing out that emoji being a waste of time than me. My major issues has been how you have conducted yourself since that. Two paragraphs above being another example.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Ahh good, now you're starting to row back. At least you've seen how wide of the mark you are. Fair play.

It is rubish, so is the Championship when we are talking about the Premier League. I've not said 1 even remotely inconsistent thing. Keep clutching at straws and arguing like a strange, strange person.

 

[Berbaclass]

It is rubish, so is the Championship when we are talking about the Premier League. I've not said 1 even remotely inconsistent thing. Keep clutching at straws and arguing like a strange, strange person.

The irony.

 

[Berbaclass]

Brexit? England is rubbish at a load of things. It does happen to have a really, really good football league. Does thinking that make me a member of the BNP?

I've never said the Serie A is a lower level than the Championship.

You seem more obsessed about me pointing out that emoji being a waste of time than me. My major issues has been how you have conducted yourself since that. Two paragraphs above being another example.

The difference is I'm being disingenuous on purpose. You actually just have ridiculous opinions.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

The difference is I'm being disingenuous on purpose. You actually just have ridiculous opinions.

Could you address the 2 points I answered. It's just that your picking and choosing when to actually engage with your own statements is a bit cheap.

Does thinking the Premier League is far better than Serie A have anything to do with Brexit? And does the statement "Closer to the Championship than the Premier League" not clearly indicate that it's still a higher level than the Championship?

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Nah just found it funny how you're going on about hypothetical scenarios and using words like 'fact' and 'logic'. Then getting wound up and sarcastically saying it's the best league ever even though no one argued it is.

You're literally just saying your opinion but said "it's a fact Serie A is a rubbish league". So your opinion is fact, interesting that you're then saying @Berbaclass is the manipulative husband

Again I never used the word logic, the amount of putting words in my mouth and trying to restate my point intentionally incorrectly in this thread has been comical. I am not even remotely wound up, I think you have argued reasonably well. I just pointed out the other lads persistently passive aggressive and disingenuous way of engaging with points that he disagrees with and asked him to actually respond to the things he has said once they have been dispelled.

I don't really rate cup competitions as a good barometer of the overall quality of a league as 1 they are highly dependent on one off games, 2 they do not represent the entire league (for example I think Inter are a very good team who would do well in the Premier League, 3 if you take the Champions League as an example it is often won by a team that doesn't even win their own league. I actually have a good handful more reasons also.

As such admittedly the best "stats" available are ones I do not put much weight in but accept if you do. I am just looking at the football I see, the quality of players who excel there, how their better players do when moving elsewhere and a number of other factors. Even looking at European competition if you want to consider it then it is what 15 or 16 years since an Italian side has won the Champions League or the Europa League?

I don't see it as a good league, I would not be surprised if any of the current top 3 in the Championship could not be in and around the top 6 competing and I don't think there are many teams in that league that would be runaway winners of the Championship. Yes that is all my opinion, you can do the username joke again if you like.

 

[macheda14]

Yep — give me more pinball midfield chasms to concede 30 shots a game instead

It’s not a binary choice. Even Pep’s style is more exciting than passing it around in your own half as nasuem.

 

[MassVolto]

Guys, stop feeding the troll, @Jippy is it possible to ban him from this thread?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

How often have coaches from the Serie A failed to translate their tactics to epl jobs entirely? For ANYONE to claim the level of their league is akin/closer to the championship

Yet a Ranieri iwho is counted as "ordinary" by their coaching traditions won an epl title with a mere Leicester city

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It’s not a binary choice. Even Pep’s style is more exciting than passing it around in your own half as nasuem.

If he has bologna's roster it would probably just as pointless toothless looking too...

 

[Jippy]

Can we stay on topic. If you want to discuss the strength of Serie A vs the PL create a separate thread for it.

 

[Nedved]

Again I never used the word logic, the amount of putting words in my mouth and trying to restate my point intentionally incorrectly in this thread has been comical. I am not even remotely wound up, I think you have argued reasonably well. I just pointed out the other lads persistently passive aggressive and disingenuous way of engaging with points that he disagrees with and asked him to actually respond to the things he has said once they have been dispelled.

I don't really rate cup competitions as a good barometer of the overall quality of a league as 1 they are highly dependent on one off games, 2 they do not represent the entire league (for example I think Inter are a very good team who would do well in the Premier League, 3 if you take the Champions League as an example it is often won by a team that doesn't even win their own league. I actually have a good handful more reasons also.

As such admittedly the best "stats" available are ones I do not put much weight in but accept if you do. I am just looking at the football I see, the quality of players who excel there, how their better players do when moving elsewhere and a number of other factors. Even looking at European competition if you want to consider it then it is what 15 or 16 years since an Italian side has won the Champions League or the Europa League?

I don't see it as a good league, I would not be surprised if any of the current top 3 in the Championship could not be in and around the top 6 competing and I don't think there are many teams in that league that would be runaway winners of the Championship. Yes that is all my opinion, you can do the username joke again if you like.

Right. Good trolling. I assume a Championship team would also reach CL or Europa League finals, like Inter, Roma and Juve (x2) have done the past decade.

 

[Grande]

You seem very knowledgeable and express yourself well. So please hear the following as me trying to engage for the benefit of my knowledge rather than being argumentative.

In terms of this perspective, I'd agree that the data on Motta is limited. It's basically one and a half good seasons, some hipster tactical chatter (especially the mythical 2-7-2 thing), an interesting player profile and a good looking, exotic vibe. These factors can definitely make someone take on a hype that isn't really warranted; see Marco Rose, Villas Boas, Pirlo etc.

Thing is, basically every contender for the United job available has a significant asterisk next to their name. I'd say it's easier to spot who isn't suitable than who is. As a fanbase, we can also be quite reactive in terms of what we want from managers - i.e. after dour Mourinho, vibes Ole was refreshing but then studious Rangnick was embraced etc. Now everyone seems to want a charismatic manager as it is seen as a weakness in ETH. So I'm aware that we can be biased towards someone like Motta, especially with Alonso, whose profile is quite similar, kicking ass in Germany.

All I'd say though is that we've tried everything post Fergie. We've gone for a big variety of manager profiles. None have worked consistently. Ultimately we just need the right person in the right setup. Not the right person in the wrong setup or the wrong person in the right setup. If Pep of Barca B days was available right now, would you take him? If Klopp when he was at Mainz was available, would you take him? Or do they have to have proved something at the top level? Is the problem with United really that we've chosen the wrong person, not the wrong profile? I'd say so. Same with our signings. Sanchez and Pogba failing doesn't mean we shouldn't buy ready made, top class players. We just need the right ready made, top class players. Pellistri and Martial failing doesn't mean we shouldn't buy promising 19 year olds. We just need the right 19 year olds.

So I guess I'm agreeing with your reluctance to go mad for Motta, given the limited success we've seen thus far and the factors that could be bringing false hype... but also wondering if you have anything concrete that makes you think he's the wrong guy? Thanks in advance.

Edit - Just an additional point... I'm not so sure the DNA knowledge is really relevant for our situation. I think DNA alignment is important and hopefully Ashworth and co define it properly. But I really don't see it as a factor because we're currently in great flux and our DNA of the last 10 years has proven to be fairly rotten and inefficient for modern football. We need someone to help us shape a new DNA. Obviously there's non negotiables that I hope continue to be weaved in through the fabric of the club - academy players being given a chance and propensity more towards attack than defence. Beyond that, I think we shouldn't really be wedded to much else. Especially not formations as some of the brightest young coaches play 3 at the back.

I’m not sure I warrant your respect, because my main reluctance about Motta is just knowing too little about him.

If I were DoF at Man Utd, tasked with selecting a manager, I would to begin with be much more knowledgeable about football than I am currently. Further, I would set a group of colleagues, all experts, to dig out every piece of information and a host of football videos and analytic breakdowns of the moat relevant candidates. Then interview them all, and blackmail the grandmother for mental diseases in the family line. A this point I would maybe have something to go on, to make a qualitative guess on which of the 20 most interesting new names are actually a good fit for Man Utd, and likely to take another step up.

As it is, I don’t, so if all I know is that a guy has made a mid table team get into fifth place a couple of times, I wouldn’t be able to separate the one Klopp from the nineteen David Moyes’es. So there’s little reason for me to get excited by the option. To me, Erik Ten Hag has the best profile for Man Utd of any manager I’ve seen since Klopp at Dortmund. He is not yet in the right set up, and neither will another manager be, not yet. So I have no reason to be excited at the idea of giving the reins over to a pretty much unknown quantity.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Right. Good trolling. I assume a Championship team would also reach CL or Europa League finals, like Inter, Roma and Juve (x2) have done the past decade.

No one is trolling.

There is usually 1 or 2 really good teams in the league. Teams that would do well in the Premier League.

Hence why I've said it's a higher level. The majority of teams in that league wouldn't be runaway winners of the championship though and over half the teams in the league would more than likely get relegated from the Premier League over a 38 game season.

Fyi the team that won the same amount in Europe as the entire Serie A has in the last 15 years finished 14th in the Prem last season. Talking about a couple of teams having a couple of cup runs over a decade to reflect the quality of an entire league is so silly.

 

[Berbaclass]

No one is trolling.

There is usually 1 or 2 really good teams in the league. Teams that would do well in the Premier League.

Hence why I've said it's a higher level. The majority of teams in that league wouldn't be runaway winners of the championship though and over half the teams in the league would more than likely get relegated from the Premier League over a 38 game season.

What on earth

 

[OverratedOpinion]

What on earth

Will engage with you when you show you can keep up a conversation and reply when the things you bring up have been addressed directly.

 

[Berbaclass]

Will engage with you when you show you can keep up a conversation and reply when the things you bring up have been addressed directly.

I don't want to engage with you I'm fearful of your wild opinions

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I don't want to engage with you I'm fearful of your wild opinions

Fearful? That is a strange emotion to feel about football opinions you disagree with.

I suppose phobias are often a bit illogical.

 

[Berbaclass]

Fearful? That is a strange emotion to feel about football opinions you disagree with.

I suppose phobias are often a bit illogical.

Relax mate, it was a joke.

What is there to say really when you're claiming that the majority of Serie A teams wouldn't easily win the Championship.

 

[Pintu]

Fyi the team that won the same amount in Europe as the entire Serie A has in the last 15 years finished 14th in the Prem last season. Talking about a couple of teams having a couple of cup runs over a decade to reflect the quality of an entire league is so silly.

15 years from now is April 2009… in this period you are saying West ham has won the gold at CL once, got the silver (runner up) at the CL 3 times and at the EL twice ?

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Relax mate, it was a joke.

What is there to say really when you're claiming that the majority of Serie A teams wouldn't easily win the Championship.

Relax mate, it was a joke.

You often comment on things then say you don't have anything to say don't you?

Strange behaviour.

 

[Berbaclass]

Relax mate, it was a joke.

You often comment on things then say you don't have anything to say don't you?

Strange behaviour.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

15 years from now is April 2009… in this period you are saying West ham has won the gold at CL once, got the silver (runner up) at the CL 3 times and at the EL twice ?

15 years have passed since a Serie A club won the Champions League, I.e. 2009 to 2024.

Silver medals? Good lord. Won as in won a trophy.

Do you consider Man Utd won 2 things last season?

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I do take back my criticism about you posting that emoji. With hindsight it's probably your best post.

 

[Berbaclass]

I do take back my criticism about you posting that emoji. With hindsight it's probably your best post.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Come on guys, this is super boring. Can't you take the argument to PMs and stop clogging up the thread?

Back to Motta... anyone actually watch Bologna regularly here? Currently nil nil with Frosinone with 10 mins to play. They're not a high scoring team but tbf they have one more scored than Juventus who have a much more expensively assembled squad. It's hard to know how Motta would translate to United but I like the aspects I've seen tactically.

 

[Berbaclass]

Come on guys, this is super boring. Can't you take the argument to PMs and stop clogging up the thread?

Back to Motta... anyone actually watch Bologna regularly here? Currently nil nil with Frosinone with 10 mins to play. They're not a high scoring team but tbf they have one more scored than Juventus who have a much more expensively assembled squad. It's hard to know how Motta would translate to United but I like the aspects I've seen tactically.

Yes, I've been watching. Tight game.

 

[Berbaclass]

Tweet

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[Berbaclass]

Tweet

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[Varun1]

Motta > Juve
Amorin > Liverpool

Who's left? De Zerbi, Nagelsmann, Inzaghi, Potter.
Who's looking? Bayern, Barca (rumours they've trying to convince Xavi), Chelsea (?), United (???)

Will it be another case of too late for us?

 

[Berbaclass]

Motta > Juve
Amorin > Liverpool

Who's left? De Zerbi, Nagelsmann, Inzaghi, Potter.
Who's looking? Bayern, Barca (rumours they've trying to convince Xavi), Chelsea (?), United (???)

Will it be another case of too late for us?

Probably. Also probably why they’ll stick with ETH.

 

[Insanity]

Since there is a dearth of obvious options, one of McKenna or him are my choice for our next manager. I think either will be a proper punt.

 

[pascell]

Since there is a dearth of obvious options, one of McKenna or him are my choice for our next manager. I think either will be a proper punt.

He's off to Juve in summer

 

[AneRu]

He's off to Juve in summer

So McKenna it is, everyone else is going left field we might as well do the same. Not just for kicks but in these structured clubs where the coach is not the sole decision maker like previously things might work out well. I look at Arsenal when they brought in Arteta what did he have other than a bit of playing history with them and an association with Pep?

 

[Insanity]

So McKenna it is, everyone else is going left field we might as well do the same. Not just for kicks but in these structured clubs where the coach is not the sole decision maker like previously things might work out well. I look at Arsenal when they brought in Arteta what did he have other than a bit of playing history with them and an association with Pep?

I have the same feeling. In the absence of availability of any outstanding candidate, McKenna would be my choice. He is young and has good ideas, knows the demands of modern football, has a good style of play, is doing exceedingly well with Ipswich, has coached here so knows the club and the demands that come with it. He'll need a lot of help from the recruitment team, though. Ashworth or Wilcox or whoever will have to be our version of Edu. We'll need a huge clear out like Arsenal. Maybe payoff some of these high earning wasters to get them out of the club.

His style of play from what I have seen will require some young, high energy players to work with. He'll have some in Dalot, Martinez, Mainoo, Garnacho, Mount, Amad, Rashford & Hojlund, but will need to add a few more over the next few transfer windows to succeed. Hopefully, a few more will emerge from the academy too.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

So McKenna it is, everyone else is going left field we might as well do the same. Not just for kicks but in these structured clubs where the coach is not the sole decision maker like previously things might work out well. I look at Arsenal when they brought in Arteta what did he have other than a bit of playing history with them and an association with Pep?

How did McKenna and Carrick go from being nepo hires under Solskjær to being hot shot managerial options for the club in the span of two seasons? McKenna is doing ok with Ipswich and might get them promoted but it’s not like they’ve been the utterly dominant stand out team in that league and achieving promotion itself is no guarantee of suitability for a club with champions league ambitions. Lampard did as much with derby and he’s been shockingly shit since his first season at Chelsea. Daniel Farke keeps getting Norwich promoted and subsequently getting them relegated every other season.

 

[Rozay]

How did McKenna and Carrick go from being nepo hires under Solskjær to being hot shot managerial options for the club in the span of two seasons? McKenna is doing ok with Ipswich and might get them promoted but it’s not like they’ve been the utterly dominant stand out team in that league and achieving promotion itself is no guarantee of suitability for a club with champions league ambitions. Lampard did as much with derby and he’s been shockingly shit since his first season at Chelsea. Daniel Farke keeps getting Norwich promoted and subsequently getting them relegated every other season.

McKenna is not doing ‘ok’ at Ipswich, such ridiculous assessment calls credibility of your point into question. Ge brought them straight from League One to the top of the league again. He’s doing an incredible job.