But then there’s the question do teams switch off after going 1-0 down against Barca or Real because 1-0 is no different to 10-0 in La Liga. If you’re a relegation battling team why would you fight and risk injuries or suspensions if you’re 2-0 down against Barca of your next match is against a fellow struggler?
Tiebreakers: Head to Head vs Goal Difference. Which one is fairer?
- Thread starter SirAnderson
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PSV did enough. Ajax didn’t. It’s right there in the numbers. Did Willem II have anything to play for?
Well integrity is the question you raising. And watching La Liga matches I don't think they are so unprofessional that they throw in the towel. Usually the gap is just too big. I don't think it affects the integrity of the league and that H2H is suited to a league like La Liga, whereas GD is better suited to the Premier League.
Again, as I said before to others, for me both are good options, but it depends on the league. I don't think its a one fits all matter.
Obviously goal difference. As others have pointed out it is about the 38 games, not 2. Also the results of the head-to-head games could possibly be swung by injuries, suspensions or poor refereeing, which adds another element of randomness to it.
Do you apply that same logic to the previous game, where Ajax won 5-2 against Sparta who also had nothing to play for?
You mention integrity, yet you question the integrity of Vitesse in your example? Which is it? If integrity is the reason why teams don't stop against a Barca team who will beat them, why aren't you affording that to Vitesse on the last day? Maybe Vitesse did try, they were just beaten by a better team who in doing so did enough to win the league.
For what it's worth, I think La Liga would be a much different league if they used goal difference instead of H2H
No they didn't.
Regardless, in that instant I see it differently to you then personally. It is way to close for me to give the winner on GD there. But in saying that, I'll concede that the teams know GD will matter, so its up to them to make sure end of the season it favors them. But its just hard because you can't control other teams being walloped by your rivals when they have an off day or have major injuries or suspensions but when they played you they were on form and had all players available etc. Then its luck and the cards you dealt. Which is also part of football, the part we can't control. So yeah, I'm just trying to see it from different angles.
If I look at the Eredivisie though, I it is better suited to H2H than GD, seeing that it is usually a 2 horse race, now and then, 3.
I do. Technically I'm asking, should lower sides being thrashed figure in a battle between 2 teams? I don't know, I'm torn. Anyway, as I said, the teams know what the stakes are before the season starts, so they should play accordingly. In the whole it isn't a problem, but sometimes GD can look not as fair, and other times H2H not as fair. But again, I still say on the whole, GD is more fairer generally.
I would like to say positive. It would mean every moment of every match is as important as the last. Like say it's Barca against Mallorca. A last minute goal for Mallorca to change a 2-0 loss to a 2-1 loss means nothing, but with GD being a deciding factor, that could be the difference between them getting relegated at the end of the match against a team they're 16/17 places behind and them getting to survive until the following week with their destiny in their own hands against a team further down the table.
I haven't put too much thought into that example so it could be wrong!
I think head to head should be the tie breaker.
Points are already used to determine how to rank teams over the course of the season. If you aren't able to distinguish them after taking into account how they've played against all 19 teams, then you should then go to a 1 on 1 basis because that should show which was better of the two.
Going on a GD would just favour the more high attacking team, and his against defensively strong teams. A team should not be penalized for winning 2-0 compared to another winning 6-2. Ultimately a win is a win.
Points are already used to determine how to rank teams over the course of the season. If you aren't able to distinguish them after taking into account how they've played against all 19 teams, then you should then go to a 1 on 1 basis because that should show which was better of the two.
Going on a GD would just favour the more high attacking team, and his against defensively strong teams. A team should not be penalized for winning 2-0 compared to another winning 6-2. Ultimately a win is a win.
The fairest way would be on total number of throw-ins won
I would say GD shows average strength against the rest of the competition. You mention it favours attacking teams, but a strong defence is absolutely key to a good goal difference. Look at Villa this season. More goals that both Bournemouth and Watford but worse goal difference because their defence is terrible
I really think in La Liga, the gap is too huge. Rarely do the lower teams upset the likes of Barca. But I can see how it could still be a case of who ends with -90 or -89 goals.
Like my F1 analogy (and it might be messed up cause it also questions integrity in football), right now the bottom teams play a game with in a game. Just like F1 there is a race within a race. Those bottom teams know there fight is not with Hamilton or Leclerc, so its making sure the teams around them don't collect more points than them by not beating them in a given race.
Similarly, Mallorca knows that the only way (other than getting wins or draws of course, but if they can't) they getting out of 17th position when it comes to a tie, is if they make sure they H2H against in 16th position Eibar position is better. Then again, it could b Valladolid that end up in 16th as the season progress, so they also need to try and get a positive H2H against them. So they know they have a chance with the battle of the 6 or 7 teams around them that could end up being relegated. Getting a result against teams for the top 6 or so that are much more dominate is super helpful and is what could take them up the table definitely, but at least they don't have to worry that Barca thumping them won't get them killed.
And by saying worried, I'm not saying they throw in the towel.
I kind of feel that's how they approach their season, whereas in the Premier League, its all about not getting thumped by ANYONE, and holding your own, which is much more possible in EPL due to the quality and money in the league to reduce the gap of quality overall. Hope that makes sense.
I agree about not conceding is just as important. But he got a point by saying a win is a win as well. The hairs are split to determine who won better rather than between the 2 teams themselves who are fighting each other to win the league or to stay up.
Ding Ding Ding, we got a winner.
I would ask Team B if they think throwing a six point lead and at least a four goal swing over Team A away over the other 36 games makes them deserved winners of that league. You become league champions based on how you perform playing every other team twice, home and away, so as blunt an instrument as it is I prefer goal difference as it takes all games in a league season into account.There are obvious pros and cons to each system.
Some posters have opined that GD reflects the overall season, rather than head-to-head, which only involves two matches. I think this is an over-simplification. Goal-difference means very little if the two teams are closely matched - like one team has a GD of +100, and the other has +101? Isn't that difference incredibly trivial? Consider this situation: At the end of the League season, Team A and Team B are tied on points. Team A has a goal difference of +101; Team B has a GD of +100. But Team B had done a fine double (home and away) over Team A. Team A will still win the league in the current format, perhaps unfairly.
How about factoring both conditions into the same equation - the best of both worlds?
If two teams are tied on points at the end of the League season (same concept for relegation), the Winner should have a non-inferior goal difference as well as a non-inferior head-to-head record against the other team. If one team has a better head-to-head, but the other team has a better goal difference, the winner will be decided by a one-match playoff.
I know there are complications of introducing a playoff in a league-based system, but what's the harm? They can put an asterisk if a team wins the League based on the single-match playoff, just like with Liverpool this season!
As others have said over a smaller sample size such as tournament groups I prefer head to head.
Are there any La Liga first preference fans here that prefer the La Liga model to the GD model?
I'd imagine a team like Barca would prefer GD cause they almost always smash teams more than Real Madrid over the last 10 years at least? I could be wrong.(with some expectations?)
Like if the league were to end now in La Liga. Would Barca fans feel hard done by because they have a better GD than Real, or accept it cause Real has a better H2H this season, even though in recent years its been Barca that had more dominant H2H against Real.
I'd imagine a team like Barca would prefer GD cause they almost always smash teams more than Real Madrid over the last 10 years at least? I could be wrong.(with some expectations?)
Like if the league were to end now in La Liga. Would Barca fans feel hard done by because they have a better GD than Real, or accept it cause Real has a better H2H this season, even though in recent years its been Barca that had more dominant H2H against Real.
Talking about fairness misses the point. Tiebreakers aren't meant to be fair, they're meant to reduce games. It's about simplifying things
Fair is a playoff at a neutral ground with both teams at full strength
The point is which system is better in terms of how it affects the teams and the league. GD makes every minute of every game matter, in theory. H2H puts outsized importance on a very small sample of games
Fair is a playoff at a neutral ground with both teams at full strength
The point is which system is better in terms of how it affects the teams and the league. GD makes every minute of every game matter, in theory. H2H puts outsized importance on a very small sample of games
A win is a win, but a league is a competition against all other teams, not just the ones directly below or above you. I think H2H has merit in smaller round robins like the Champions League or Europa. But for a full 20 team league you’re trying to place teams with respect to their ability against all other teams.
My point is more a question of is the gap artificially larger because of the lack of emphasis on the losing sides performance. As I mentioned the last 30 minutes of a La Liga match doesn’t matter if Barca are winning 3-0 right now, it would under GD. Would there be more upsets, comebacks and the rest if it wasn’t head to head? I don’t think that can truly be answered without it being tested.I really think in La Liga, the gap is too huge. Rarely do the lower teams upset the likes of Barca. But I can see how it could still be a case of who ends with -90 or -89 goals.
Like my F1 analogy (and it might be messed up cause it also questions integrity in football), right now the bottom teams play a game with in a game. Just like F1 there is a race within a race. Those bottom teams know there fight is not with Hamilton or Leclerc, so its making sure the teams around them don't collect more points than them by not beating them in a given race.
Similarly, Mallorca knows that the only way (other than getting wins or draws of course, but if they can't) they getting out of 17th position when it comes to a tie, is if they make sure they H2H against in 16th position Eibar position is better. Then again, it could b Valladolid that end up in 16th as the season progress, so they also need to try and get a positive H2H against them. So they know they have a chance with the battle of the 6 or 7 teams around them that could end up being relegated. Getting a result against teams for the top 6 or so that are much more dominate is super helpful and is what could take them up the table definitely, but at least they don't have to worry that Barca thumping them won't get them killed.
And by saying worried, I'm not saying they throw in the towel.
I kind of feel that's how they approach their season, whereas in the Premier League, its all about not getting thumped by ANYONE, and holding your own, which is much more possible in EPL due to the quality and money in the league to reduce the gap of quality overall. Hope that makes sense.
It’s as simple as this, a league table reflects performance over an entire season, not a 2 game snapshot.
Head to head has no place in it.
That can be true that defensively poor teams would be punished, but again when you look at the context of an overall season it shouldn't make a difference whether a match is won by 1 goal or 3 goals. Strength should not be determined by number of goals scored vs conceded, teams may have different strategies. A good comparison would be City of the previous season vs Chelsea in 2004-05.
The overall points difference between the two was only 3 points, City had 98 points while Chelsea had 95, but on GD the difference was much more vast (City with +72 and Chelsea +57). It is well known that Chelsea's strategy would be to get a two goal lead and then shut up shop, while City would continue to score even if the match was already sealed. So in a question of who was more dominant, would you say it was City or Chelsea? Chelsea could argue that if their main purpose was to win matches, whether it be by 1 or 2 goals, while City seemed more determined to win by as much as possible.
I personally would not say City was more dominant than Chelsea. While City would batter a team for the whole 90 minutes, Chelsea's type of dominance was different in that they would simply stifle the opponent after scoring and seemingly win without breaking a much of a sweat. In the end, I don't think you can award one and punish the other. If City and Chelsea would meet in a match, I think that would be more interesting in determining who would be the better side (if overall points are equal obviously).
These lower sides always give their all against similar sides, not because they're trying to get a positive head-to-head but simply because a win gives them three points (while their direct competitors have nil). This is irrespective whether a tie is decided on GD or head-to-head.I really think in La Liga, the gap is too huge. Rarely do the lower teams upset the likes of Barca. But I can see how it could still be a case of who ends with -90 or -89 goals.
Like my F1 analogy (and it might be messed up cause it also questions integrity in football), right now the bottom teams play a game with in a game. Just like F1 there is a race within a race. Those bottom teams know there fight is not with Hamilton or Leclerc, so its making sure the teams around them don't collect more points than them by not beating them in a given race.
Similarly, Mallorca knows that the only way (other than getting wins or draws of course, but if they can't) they getting out of 17th position when it comes to a tie, is if they make sure they H2H against in 16th position Eibar position is better. Then again, it could b Valladolid that end up in 16th as the season progress, so they also need to try and get a positive H2H against them. So they know they have a chance with the battle of the 6 or 7 teams around them that could end up being relegated. Getting a result against teams for the top 6 or so that are much more dominate is super helpful and is what could take them up the table definitely, but at least they don't have to worry that Barca thumping them won't get them killed.
And by saying worried, I'm not saying they throw in the towel.
I kind of feel that's how they approach their season, whereas in the Premier League, its all about not getting thumped by ANYONE, and holding your own, which is much more possible in EPL due to the quality and money in the league to reduce the gap of quality overall. Hope that makes sense.
True, I had on blinders when writing that
The 3 points is better than H2H definitely, but if it happened at the end of the season that they were tied on points, that will come in handy. So maybe they can have both on their mind, and not that it is 1 or the other only.Let's all agree that in this particular case goal difference was better! 29th of april 2007. What a day. No preperations at all but what a party in Eindhoven.
Definitely H2h for me. Goal difference allows too many different factors to come into it in my opinion. If Team A beats Team B both times then that should be enough of a decider. Once GD comes into it then Team B could end up having their final 6 games against teams with nothing to play for and can rack up a big score while Team A had to play those teams when they were giving 100%.
I can only imagine the joy you guys had. In fact, both of you and Ajax were technically outsiders, and it was in the hands of AZ. What a loss shock loss to Excelsior. I would have absolutely been gutted if that happened to my team. Don't think you can really recover from something like that.
Go on, relive it:
H2H makes more sense for me. If you’re trying to decide between two teams on the same points, then it’s more sensible to look at how they did versus each other, rather than how they did against the other 18 teams.
There isn’t any right or wrong answer to this, and it’s all a matter of personal preference. H2H encourages teams to go for the win against their rivals, which is always better for the game.
There isn’t any right or wrong answer to this, and it’s all a matter of personal preference. H2H encourages teams to go for the win against their rivals, which is always better for the game.
Goal difference is the fairest, in my opinion, as it's a league table which is a measure of performance against every team in that league.
If they're going to move away from that, perhaps they could consider basing it on which club pays their goalkeeper the most, or who has the biggest stadium.
Average total bomb scares from prop devices left in toilets over a 10 year period.
Loads of criteria to choose from.
If they're going to move away from that, perhaps they could consider basing it on which club pays their goalkeeper the most, or who has the biggest stadium.
Average total bomb scares from prop devices left in toilets over a 10 year period.
Loads of criteria to choose from.
Never gets old! Huntelaar hit the post for Ajax too. AZ threw it away with a stupid red card. Also Kluivert scored 1 goal for PSV that season. Exactly the difference. Vertonghen scored against Ajax for a draw in one of the last matches of the season on loan from Ajax. Absolutely mental season.I can only imagine the joy you guys had. In fact, both of you and Ajax were technically outsiders, and it was in the hands of AZ. What a loss shock loss to Excelsior. I would have absolutely been gutted if that happened to my team. Don't think you can really recover from something like that.
Go on, relive it:
Its not only for who has won the league. Its CL spots and Relegation as well.
There are levels to choose from though:
EPL
- Goal difference
- Higher number of goals scored
- Playoff at neutral venue if relevant for deciding champion, relegation or participating in a European league, otherwise by draw.
La Liga
- Head-to-head points between tied teams
- Head-to-head goal difference between tied teams
- Goal difference
- Goal difference
- Goals scored for the entire season
- Head-to-head results (total points accumulated)
- Head-to-head goals scored
- Head-to-head away goals scored
- Total away goals scored for the entire season
- Playoff at neutral venue if relevant for deciding champion, relegation or participating in a European league, otherwise by draw.
In Ligue 1:
- Goal difference
- Higher number of goals scored
- Playoff at neutral venue if relevant for deciding champion, relegation or participating in a European league, otherwise by draw.
Serie A:
- Head-to-head points
- Head-to-head goal difference
- Goal difference
- Higher number of goals scored
- Playoff at neutral venue if relevant for deciding champion, relegation or participating in a European league, otherwise by draw.
Sufficed to say the chances of any league getting to their second option is slim to none
Just in case you forgot to finish this sentence, I'd love to see it finished. You a real tease aren't you.
There are several competitions which also take fair play/disciplinary points into account
Yes, I edited that before you replied and removed the part about it being about winning the league, as it's about all league positions. I still think the point applies that it's about performance against the whole league, but I do think there's valid cases to be made in favour of both GD and H2H.
For instance, if it was H2H in the PL, we'd have qualified for the Champions League in 15/16 over Manchester City. Both sides won 19, drew 9 and lost 10, but we drew 0-0 and beat them 1-0 that year, and overall they scored 21 more goals than we did (we scored a lowly 49 in 38 games, the 2nd lowest in the top half of the table - Stoke being the lowest.).
There's a bit of unfairness about it whichever way you sway that.
Winner take all tie breaker game at Wembley.
As long as the rules didnt get changed along the way then either way is fair. Everyone knew the tie breaker from the get go and will have to play accordingly.
There's always swing and roundabout any system we choose. Teams ahead on H2H would probably take it easy on scoring front, and vice versa.
I prefer goal difference but don't have an issue with head to head either over a full league season.
But using head to head in 4 team groups is ridiculous. If you unfortunately lose to a team in a 4 team group, it is really difficult to finish above them. One dodgy ref call that costs a team a game is a double whammy.
But using head to head in 4 team groups is ridiculous. If you unfortunately lose to a team in a 4 team group, it is really difficult to finish above them. One dodgy ref call that costs a team a game is a double whammy.
That was the season they beat us 6-1I like this argument alot.
And how was our head to head when City won in 2012? If it was better, h2h is my new fairer
As long as you know what the rules are, both are ok.
After that you can set your priorities accordingly.
After that you can set your priorities accordingly.