Time to stand by Rangnick

[romufc]

What has that got to do with anything? Players who are injured can take weeks to get back to 'full fitness', through fitness drills and getting more match practice. Do we have weeks in between games?

Klopp went through the same thing when he joined mid season. You can't put a whole team on a fitness routine when the majority of time spent in between games is already spent on making sure players are sufficiently recovered from the last match.

There's also the issue of injuries occuring from an increased work load. We're already light in numbers as it is.

Not rocket science.

What do you mean what has it got to do with it? Let me give you an example. Pogba looks out of it after 60 mins, where was his fitness drills, this was under Rangnick by the way.

Yes, we do have weeks in between games, we had a winter break, since we went out the FA cup, we have had a week to train in between games.

Klopp went through it, go watch the games that Liverpool played, they were high intensity, got to the final of Europa league, they were not sitting back all game, they were pressing. This is why Liverpool fans saw something, they saw their team press.

Light in numbers? Go back to Rangnick's press conference and hear what he said, the squad is too big, he got rid of players because we had too many players.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

excuses, excuses, excuses.

He's had 3 plus months with the squad, the fitness has not changed.

He's not the one trying to get fit, that is the players, if they don't put the effort in.

 

[NewGlory]

I will stand by Rangnick when he grows some balls and removes Maguire off captaincy + drops Rashford for good. I understand he is under a lot of pressure but I still feel he cares about his career more than what the club needs, so I am not gonna stand by a coward.

 

[romufc]

He's not the one trying to get fit, that is the players, if they don't put the effort in.

So what difference would a pre season make if they dont want to put the effort in?

 

[Teja]

excuses, excuses, excuses.

He's had 3 plus months with the squad, the fitness has not changed.

You can't just show up in the middle of winter and demand fitness training, that's now how it works. Players will already be dealing with a bunch of workload from their matches (adding fitness on top will result in injuries), not to mention the time it takes to work on technical skills (so they stay sharp for matchdays) and tactical skills (probably a big chunk of time given how big a switch it was from Ole -> Ralf).

 

[romufc]

You can't just show up in the middle of winter and demand fitness training, that's now how it works. Players will already be dealing with a bunch of workload from their matches (adding fitness on top will result in injuries), not to mention the time it takes to work on technical skills (so they stay sharp for matchdays) and tactical skills (probably a big chunk of time given how big a switch it was from Ole -> Ralf).

So why change coach mid season if they cannot have any effect?

Chelsea changed coach and changed a whole system mid season
Villa changed coaches and look at them

Why not keep ole till the end if we cannot work on anything with the new coach apart from staying sharp?

 

[Teja]

So why change coach mid season if they cannot have any effect?

Chelsea changed coach and changed a whole system mid season
Villa changed coaches and look at them

Why not keep ole till the end if we cannot work on anything with the new coach apart from staying sharp?

We're talking specifically fitness.

If you don't see any change from Ole -> Rangnick tactically, then there's not much to discuss. We're living in different realities.

 

[romufc]

We're talking specifically fitness.

If you don't see any change from Ole -> Rangnick tactically, then there's not much to discuss. We're living in different realities.

So does that mean players who get injured mid season have to wait until next season to be fully fit because the manager cant work on fitness during a season?

I have seen loads of players get injured and come back fit, but ofcourse at Manutd they can't because we have to be sharp for the next game.

Results have improved? Not really
Performances have tactically? What performance was more embarrassing, City at Home or away? I see that was 2 different realities?

Are we conceding chances? Yes
Are we easy to break down ? yes

Not much has changed.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

So what difference would a pre season make if they dont want to put the effort in?

You would hope the ones not putting effort in won't be here by pre-season.

 

[romufc]

You would hope the ones not putting effort in won't be here by pre-season.

Fair enough, I have no issue with this theory, I would like to see the same but the fans who think you can't work on fitness during the season are deluded.

It takes time but you can 100% work on fitness during the season.

 

[Teja]

So does that mean players who get injured mid season have to wait until next season to be fully fit because the manager cant work on fitness during a season?

I have seen loads of players get injured and come back fit, but ofcourse at Manutd they can't because we have to be sharp for the next game.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm simply describing how basically every modern club does training. It doesn't matter if it's Chelsea or Villa or some team in the Austrian first division, all of them do some variant of the below.

A player's total training workload is minutes in a match + physical training + technical training. Even minutes in the match is an oversimplification, they track things like sprints, turns and other actions that put strain on muscles and come up with numbers on how much training a player can do. Too little physical exertion and too much exertion are both bad (see Tuchel's comments on James being in an orange zone as an example).

Injury recovery doesn't come into this at all. Injured players don't play in matches and don't take part in normal technical training drills, all they do is physical training, video analysis etc.

If you want to increase the physical training load while having them play 90 minutes almost twice a week during December, they blow past that orange zone and go get injured. It should be pretty obvious that a player who played 90 minutes on Sunday can't go into Monday and do a high intensity training session.

This is why pre-season exists - the workload from matches disappears, so they can do a lot more high intensity physical training. Even the technical, tactical drills are reduced initially leaving way more time for purely physical stuff.

If you want players to run like maniacs, that's not a change you make mid-season.

 

[romufc]

I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm simply describing how basically every modern club does training. It doesn't matter if it's Chelsea or Villa or some team in the Austrian first division, all of them do some variant of the below.

A player's total training workload is minutes in a match + physical training + technical training. Even minutes in the match is an oversimplification, they track things like sprints, turns and other actions that put strain on muscles and come up with numbers on how much training a player can do. Too little physical exertion and too much exertion are both bad (see Tuchel's comments on James being in an orange zone as an example).

Injury recovery doesn't come into this at all. Injured players don't play in matches and don't take part in normal technical training drills, all they do is physical training, video analysis etc.

If you want to increase the physical training load while having them play 90 minutes almost twice a week during December, they blow past that orange zone and go get injured. It should be pretty obvious that a player who played 90 minutes on Sunday can't go into Monday and do a high intensity training session.

This is why pre-season exists - the workload from matches disappears, so they can do a lot more high intensity physical training. Even the technical, tactical drills are reduced initially leaving way more time for purely physical stuff.

If you want players to run like maniacs, that's not a change you make mid-season.

I know how sports science works.

If you go play for City, Liverpool who are top clubs and even Chelsea, I guarantee you that if you are not fit enough you won't play.

So how do players who go to World Cups, Euros, Copa America get fit? because they come back when the season starts after a holiday? Sometimes its about 8/9 players in a team, does that mean they wont be fully fit all season and wait for the next season? No, it just means they wont play matches until they are fit.

Pressing doesn't mean run like maniacs, see that is the difference between running for sake of it and a targeted press.

So how come Pogba doesn't look fit? his fitness drops after 60 mins? Clearly its a club problem.

 

[El Jefe]

We always get silly pro Rangnick threads after a win and anti player threads after a loss. As usual Manchester United fans have an irrational bond with being tied to managers that have achieved very little.

We've played shit for a large portion of his time here, but of course he'll be absolved of all blame. Move him upstairs as initially planned and don't for a second even entertain the idea of keeping him as manager beyond this season.

 

[UpWithRivers]

We always get silly pro Rangnick threads after a win and anti player threads after a loss. As usual Manchester United fans have an irrational bond with being tied to managers that have achieved very little.

We've played shit for a large portion of his time here, but of course he'll be absolved of all blame. Move him upstairs as initially planned and don't for a second even entertain the idea of keeping him as manager beyond this season.

This thread was created before the Tottenham game and after getting battered by City

 

[El Jefe]

This thread was created before the Tottenham game and after getting battered by City

I stand corrected but it was more of a general point about how each united win is looked at as RR doing a great job.

 

[NewGlory]

So does that mean players who get injured mid season have to wait until next season to be fully fit because the manager cant work on fitness during a season?

I have seen loads of players get injured and come back fit, but ofcourse at Manutd they can't because we have to be sharp for the next game.

Results have improved? Not really
Performances have tactically? What performance was more embarrassing, City at Home or away? I see that was 2 different realities?

Are we conceding chances? Yes
Are we easy to break down ? yes

Not much has changed.

Well, there was that run of games when we were playing 4-2-2-2 and everybody was saying it wasn't going to end well, until it didn't end well and we reverted back to 4-3-3 or whatever we are playing these days. Other than that, I agree with you, we are not any better of a team, or any more successful than with Ole. If you compare to Ole before this season, we are actually worse, despite having arguably better players (Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo just to name a few).

 

[Dan-Utd]

Let's face it, Rangnick has been a disaster, right up to his appointment people on here and socials were praising him like a god, a guy with a managerial record that is average at best, he was going to rock up at Old Trafford and completely transform such a huge club just because he had previously developed a small club.

I worry that he won't be a cheap DOF and am certain doing it at a club like Manchester United is different than doing it at a small club rising up the lower leagues.

 

[romufc]

Well, there was that run of games when we were playing 4-2-2-2 and everybody was saying it wasn't going to end well, until it didn't end well and we reverted back to 4-3-3 or whatever we are playing these days. Other than that, I agree with you, we are not any better of a team, or any more successful than with Ole. If you compare to Ole before this season, we are actually worse, despite having arguably better players (Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo just to name a few).

Exactly. I mean Ole had to go don't get me wrong but I don't think much has changed imo.

We are still a pretty bad team, just that we have a few more form players that bail us out.

Everyone is quick to turn on the old manager and gas up the new one but lets be honest, what formation are we playing? seems a 4-2-3-1 to me in most games. Wasn't Ole bashed for this?

I just don't like the excuses some fans come up with.

Oh we cannot work on fitness till end of season
Oh we can't work on coaching the team till the end

Well what are the coaches doing then?

We might be more organised, our passing and breaking down teams is no different than before Ralf.

 

[VP89]

Let's face it, Rangnick has been a disaster, right up to his appointment people on here and socials were praising him like a god, a guy with a managerial record that is average at best, he was going to rock up at Old Trafford and completely transform such a huge club just because he had previously developed a small club.

I worry that he won't be a cheap DOF and am certain doing it at a club like Manchester United is different than doing it at a small club rising up the lower leagues.

This post is, with respect, a pile of BS.
No one thought he would transform the club from the get go. And his managerial work performances were not average.

He didn't just develop one small clubs, he shaped the way 2 of them played whilst having a strong influence on the infrastructure of another. You'd be hard pressed to find a person better suited to clean up the mess we have, and the majority of us know that his biggest input is after he goes upstairs.

There have been countless posts saying how they were more excited about his longer term consultancy than interim manager role, but you're just making up a different story.

 

[Bestietom]

This. I think the fact that he has had no support from the board is often overlooked. The very least the board could have done was to bring in a DM (we need one anyway) and we might be seeing much different results (specially against weaker teams where we've lost terrible amount of points this season). With all other managers we gave 1-2 windows to sort the squad but Rangnick has zero players of his own choice.

It will be the boards fault if we don't get that 4th spot. We could have got a couple of players quite cheap.

 

[cyberman]

I’ve watched City struggle v low blocks that counter now for about a month and the only side that they’ve destroyed is Utd who tried pressing them high.
I’m all for backing the manager but that’s not reading the room and, if we beat Atletico, I can see us doing something stupid like pressing up v Bayern away and not giving ourselves a chance in the tie

 

[We Need Another Rebuild]

Some of the people in here blasting RR for the teams performances Jesus.

He tried to Implement a High Pressing Style but these useless lot can't run or wont run.

So he has had to go back to sit back and counter, you can blame him for some team selections, but then is he not proving a point by saying look at this sh1t i have to play, a large majority might be playing to put them in the shop window the ones who's contracts aren't ending this year.

RR didn't miss those sitters that cost us games, RR didn't give away defensive error after error.

RR has picked the team, but the blame is firmly on the players.

This isn't gonna be fixed in a few month, some of you are entitled on here expecting him to get us playing to a top team with no midfield, a useless CB as captain and a team that can't score consistently even though we have created more chances under RR than anyone before the City game

 

[UpWithRivers]

I’ve watched City struggle v low blocks that counter now for about a month and the only side that they’ve destroyed is Utd who tried pressing them high.
I’m all for backing the manager but that’s not reading the room and, if we beat Atletico, I can see us doing something stupid like pressing up v Bayern away and not giving ourselves a chance in the tie

I literally created a thread saying we are a counter attacking team and we should accept it and suggested we should get Simeone and got laughed at. So I get this. But I meant in general that it suits our players. But in the case of City and where we are right now Im not so sure a low block would have made any difference. Firstly we needed a win. Secondly our defense is sht. We would have conceded a lot. Thirdly our attack is sht. PLus our team wont run or try hard. We wouldnt get out of our own half. United with Greenwood and Rashford etc and playing well yes this would have been the way to go. As we are now I think it just would have been 7-0.

 

[El Jefe]

The love he was receiving in this thread

Ralf has been fecking awful. Its amazing how people were seeing any positives in his clown show of a reign.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Let's face it, Rangnick has been a disaster, right up to his appointment people on here and socials were praising him like a god, a guy with a managerial record that is average at best, he was going to rock up at Old Trafford and completely transform such a huge club just because he had previously developed a small club.

I worry that he won't be a cheap DOF and am certain doing it at a club like Manchester United is different than doing it at a small club rising up the lower leagues.

That's a disaster of a post. YOu can't simply transform a team in few month into a mordern pressing team with players at disposal. Noone expects Ronaldo to press, and neither other players. It's a difficult task in such a short time and yeah neither me thinks that he's done great as he didn't but as an interim assessing the squad from inside, he will have his say what's next and that's important.

If you think we hired him longterm that he should hit the ground running and outperform some great managers, teams and units who work together for much longer time than you're crazy..

 

[MrSingh2002]

Rangnick barring Maguire has dropped underperforming players and played the ones that perform.

Him working above Ten Hag would be excellent. No knowledge lost how it has been during the last few changes and Ten Hag can have someone strong above him backing his overhaul.

It might take some pain but we only have 6 or 7 players that should be near our starting 11.

We still need to address CB, CDM, CM and CF.

If we give it to Pochettino I think its fair to say the Club and Board would be taking the easy option so they can make less changes to the squad and give wasters like Shaw, Maguire and Rashford another chance to burn the next manager and go through the whole charade again that they're professionals.

Bottom line is I trust Rangnick to do the right thing over the players and the board. He's had success making improvements at clubs. The current board or the playing squad haven't done a thing.

Back Rangnick and get him Ten Hag to work under him and make common sense football decisions.

feck adult Disneyland.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

The love he was receiving in this thread

Ralf has been fecking awful. Its amazing how people were seeing any positives in his clown show of a reign.

I think he’s been one of the worst caretakers in the leagues history. So many dropped points against awful teams who lost by 4 or 5 goals either side of playing us

I want United to win all their remaining games but I do fear him being given the job permanently still if he does

 

[VidaRed]

The players (not all but some of them) have already thrown rangnick under the bus.

The board is about to throw him under the bus.

What remains to be seen if whether the fans throw him under aswell and then pretend the problem has been fixed until its time to throw the next manager under the bus.

 

[VidaRed]

Some of the people in here blasting RR for the teams performances Jesus.

He tried to Implement a High Pressing Style but these useless lot can't run or wont run.

So he has had to go back to sit back and counter, you can blame him for some team selections, but then is he not proving a point by saying look at this sh1t i have to play, a large majority might be playing to put them in the shop window the ones who's contracts aren't ending this year.

RR didn't miss those sitters that cost us games, RR didn't give away defensive error after error.

RR has picked the team, but the blame is firmly on the players.

This isn't gonna be fixed in a few month, some of you are entitled on here expecting him to get us playing to a top team with no midfield, a useless CB as captain and a team that can't score consistently even though we have created more chances under RR than anyone before the City game

We deserve to be in the shitter.

From the board to the players to the fans the general thought process is we're a manager away from winning silverware.

Anyone who tells them the systemic issues will be hounded out of the club. I want ten hag to join but I hope he doesn't because he will most likely fail with this board in charge and these players not being moved out.

Cue 8 months from now how ten hag is shit and no better than moyes. Expect more of the same, I reckon it will take another decade of failure, if not more for most of the deluded fans to see where the mistake is.

 

[Uncle Jenggo]

I don't think we need to standby Ragnick at all, by appointing him as an interim manager and then a consultancy job already said what the plan is. As fans, for the remaining games, we just need to brace ourselves for the worst outcome possible.
I think what RR is doing is cleaning up the mess of many seasons and implementing a structure that is stable for the club. Moyes, LVG, Jose, and Ole all have different ideas and plans, and we have spent too much money on each manager trying to implement their ideas into Utd. So now, instead of changing the whole structure all over again which costs money, they just get a manager to go along with what they are building. In order to build a good one, Ragnick needs to see for himself what is going wrong at United, the players, fitness, tactics, or whatever it is, it is RR's job to clean it up. I do not think that he is appointed to win us anything this season.

Plus, I don't think our next season will be a good one too. It pains me to say, it's gonna be a rebuilding season again. Trust the process all over again.

 

[Foxbatt]

We have to stand by him so we can get rid of the bad apples and get a new manager who is capable. Then hopefully the club would use his expertise in restructuring the football club.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

We have to stand by him so we can get rid of the bad apples and get a new manager who is capable. Then hopefully the club would use his expertise in restructuring the football club.

Exactly. I don't know why people find it hard to understand that Ralfs main strength is building clubs from the bottom. Which is where we are right now. If the price for his expertise in a consultancy capacity was him taking the reigns for 6 months then it's a price worth paying. He's seen first hand the squad we have and I'm sure in his own head he already knows what needs to be done. Whether the club is in agreement with him is another matter but now is the time to listen to someone who actually knows what he's doing.

 

[MalBot]

Have to say when Ole started to struggle badly this season I thought you would wait till the end of the season before you got in a longterm manager. So when you decided to sack Ole and appointed Rangnick for the rest of the season I was worried as a rival fan, I was sure you would shoot up the table very quickly. I looked at your squad and saw you had quite a strong team on paper.

I liked Ole but always felt he had big weaknesses to ever be a great manager so I was sure I would see a big improvement if not in results at least in performances. That simply hasn't happened. Imo getting rid of Ole mid season meant you wanted to salvage this season, otherwise you would have just waited till the summer. On this part I think it has been a complete failure.

Whether it has been useful for Ralf to assess the squad so he can make the appropriate recommendations when he moves upstairs will be seen later. Maybe that was the priority all along. I guess it depends what his remit was. Not knowing what the priorities were it is hard to make a judgement about his reign so far.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Have to say when Ole started to struggle badly this season I thought you would wait till the end of the season before you got in a longterm manager. So when you decided to sack Ole and appointed Rangnick for the rest of the season I was worried as a rival fan, I was sure you would shoot up the table very quickly. I looked at your squad and saw you had quite a strong team on paper.

I liked Ole but always felt he had big weaknesses to ever be a great manager so I was sure I would see a big improvement if not in results at least in performances. That simply hasn't happened. Imo getting rid of Ole mid season meant you wanted to salvage this season, otherwise you would have just waited till the summer. On this part I think it has been a complete failure.

Whether it has been useful for Ralf to assess the squad so he can make the appropriate recommendations when he moves upstairs will be seen later. Maybe that was the priority all along. I guess it depends what his remit was. Not knowing what the priorities were it is hard to make a judgement about his reign so far.

I think you are mostly right.

Ralf made very little improvement over Ole results wise, if you compare what Ole did after Mourinho left, that is night and day difference.
Also we do not know who the new manager will be and how well he will cooperate with Ralf. How can we know that the new manager will take into consideration Ralf's recommendations ? It's now like there coming from a legendary manager of footballing figure.

I would of preferred a quick fix, someone capable of turning this around fast, immediately and saving our current season, because we were still in 2 cups and top 4 battle when Ralf arrived. Now we are out of every achievable goal, sure mathematically 4th is still possible, but in reality we all know we will be playing on Thursdays next season.

 

[MalBot]

Also we do not know who the new manager will be and how well he will cooperate with Ralf. How can we know that the new manager will take into consideration Ralf's recommendations ?

This is something I didn't even consider. Then appointing Rangnick would have been pointless. Surely the decision makers at United would have had a plan. But then again there are more and more reports coming out lately which seems to suggest he won't have as much influence as we thought so I'm not sure what to believe anymore.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Also we do not know who the new manager will be and how well he will cooperate with Ralf. How can we know that the new manager will take into consideration Ralf's recommendations ?

The whole point of having a (consultant) DOF is to bring continuity to the club so we don't go from one extreme to the other like we have been doing for the last decade. Managers with similar styles will he using similar type players. If he's good enough for Enrique then he's good enough for ETH.

 

[Bondi77]

Just out of interest
When was the time when we should not of stood by Ralf?

 

[Abraxas]

I'm not sure about the premise at this point, my feeling on Ralf is starting to change. Do we have to stand by him or does he have to show over a period of time that he's the man to reshape this club, both as an interim and then in whatever this "consultancy" role is?

The way I see it is he's not really got credit in the bank at this level. There is a difference between affording him some patience and stating that we should just put our eggs in the Ralf basket even if little is being shown to warrant the statement that he is the man.

As many have pointed out, the CV is not really there at this stature of club. The fact we're a state doesn't make that any less true, in fact it makes it more concerning because Man Utd are a juggernaut and the likes of Leipzig are not. That means we need something special to turn the tide.

It remains to be seen what this consultancy role entails, how much he actually works and what his credibility is post-interim period. How can you be the man to say to Arnold "let's spend a quarter of a billion over here" when you have flopped in reaching a pretty mundane target, like say.. finishing 4th. It's a tough sell even if the roles are different. So the way I see it is Ralf has a lot to show between now and the end of the season and then we'll see how the details emerge.

 

[DRJosh]

I think we should not judge Ralf on his capacity to deliver as an advisor based on his subpar managerial performances with United. 2 completely different roles requiring different skill sets.

 

[Rampant Red Rodriguez]

Some.cnuts are never happy whether we win loose or draw, good performance or shit - they are just never happy with anything at all.

Such toxic behaviour should be isolated from the rest of the forum, maybe have its own message board?

RR is also dealing with the same mess that OGS had to deal with and the shit pointless transfer window where we failed to improve the midfield. And not forgetting the fatigue from the long season last year and the Euro 2020 tournament.

Wish the fanbase on here could take a more mature approach to the club at times.