This is the key facts the FA cup fixture has depleted the fatigue of the squad further and it was a foolish decision given we lost the game. We would have beaten West Ham if Solskjaer had rested the main 11.
Tired....again
- Thread starter RedStarUnited
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And when Ole did rotate for the quarters there was an insane amount of crying on here as why would he feck with a winning team and momentum, play the best players get the job done and then sub was the main thing I kept reading. now he’s done that he’s still getting a slating.
honestly the man can’t win
Between 19 Juni and 22nd July we have played 10 games. In 33 days. That means a game every 3,3 days and including trips to London, Norwich, Birmingham, Brighton, London and London again and you got a picture about players life last month. If you also put into considiration that Solskjaer played pretty much same starting eleven every game it is no wonder that we are little bit tired right now. Fatigue and lack of "right" results makes you also think and doubt sometimes which can effect its psychological status.
Considering we were out of gas last year in March I would say that we are making progress in fitness this year.
You’re comparing a normal Season, oles first With this shit storm of a season though and I don’t think that’s fair. This season is way out of the ordinary, every team has lost in this restart phase with united doing the best so I struggle to understand where all the moaning is coming from
No only Chelsea, Arsenal, City played the same number of matches. Others don't have 2 FA matches.
And it's another thing I'm really furious about. Yesterday the commentator in my channel said that after break all teams who faced us had more days of rest than us. I haven't looked in the schedule but it's true with Chelsea, WH and Leicester at the least.
As I explained above, it's not like all teams played a similar number of matches in 30 days would have the a similar level of fitness when facing each others. The fitness level of a team is heavily affected by the number of days rest before the match. Especially in a congested schedule like the current one. If a team has more days to rest than their opponent surely they'd be fresher. And it's definitely a big advantage.
Why always us who have the smaller number of rest days than our opponent ? Why the feck these FA matches have to be played now instead of waiting until the PL is finished? What the feck those FA guys have been smoking at their offices ? I'm baffled.
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Fred and mctominay are good grafters but no where near the creativity of Pogba and Bruno. And that’s what people have been crying for for months and years, now we have it and it’s got us into top four spot people are crying that we havnt used the players that couldn’t break down the weaker teams in the first place
I’ve never known a schedule like this, where EVERYONE has dropped pointsNo it's just an excuse not to blame the manager or players not performing. I genuinely don't think it's ever popped up as an excuse until Ole took over amazingly. Football debate reduced down to fitness
There was lots of praise when we first came back at how well we'd done to be fitter than every other team. Suddenly all our mistakes are just fitness.
Leicester have lost their starting RB, LB and main creator. Chelsea have been defensively bad all season.
And we really need to stop comparing ourselves to Leicester but thats another topic..
True but you can't just bin everyone as we still need to rotate. You also cannot get sharpness without proper minutes. Bringing someone off the bench with 25 mins to go and 3 goals up isn't a fair judgement of what they are capable of, nor gonna help them get going. Rashford for example was bad at first but played into form.
And the number of times the players seem to just stand and watch as the other team get the ball in dangerous areas, an example of this is yesterday, just before Greenwood's goal, Matic just seemed to stand and watch as the ball went past him as West Ham were attacking at the time, same with one of the Chelsea goals, yes De Gea made the error, and I think it was the one where Williams made the mistake but the central defenders just stood there, at least TRY and close them down/ make the angle etc harder for them.
The moaning is because after an admittedly impressive comeback, we look like shitting ourselves now that our actual goal is in sight. It's very painful because for a while it looked like we could be back, we could actually make the CL despite a dreadful first half of the season - but the moment that chance became real, our performances collapsed immediately, just like last season.
Not sure on that one. This isn't a Fifa match where you have an energy bar.
If your legs are stiff and heavy before you even start the match, it'll take you a while to wake the muscles up, if anything you might get better towards the 30 minute mark which is almost what we see.
I think the best way to imagine it is if you wake up after a bad nights sleep. In the morning you don't feel fresh and fine and only suffer later, you usually feel slow and laggy in your body and your mind. Only after being awake for a few hours does it pass and you feel a bit more normal again, that happens a bit when you're tired playing sport.
Our best period of play where Greenwood scored came directly after half time, and we pulled out some nice quick passing and movement, after that it dipped again. That shows me the rest at half time helped.
I guess we will see what the reaction is like against Leicester, but yet again our opponent is having a weeks rest compared to our 3.
Leicester have won the league more recently than us, and have been ahead of us all season in the table.
Whether you like it or not maybe we are closer to Leicester than you like to accept? I think this is the issue with United fans lately, still thinking we are the best when we arent.
I don’t agree with that at all. If you warm up properly there’s no excuse for legs being stiff and heavy in the beginning of a match. Accumulated fatigue might cause injuries or an inability to dig deep in the closing period but shouldn’t mess us up in the opening period.
It also doesn’t explain our sluggish start against Chelsea in the FA Cup, who had played exactly the same number of games as us.
If we did that, we'd be a minimum 4-6 points worse off guaranteed, and we'd be facing having to have all our eggs in the Europa League basket. Again.
Like I said, in an ideal world we'd have likely seen a lot more rotation. It's not like Ole stuck to one lineup all throughout his time here. He has rotated plenty of times. He gave these players a chance vs Norwich and they proceeded to shit the bed. He can't trust them at this point.
The issue is that literally every game has been crucial, there just hasn't been that opportunity to let players like Fred, James and McTominay play themselves into form. Not least when the players they are under were playing so much better. Yes, Rashford played himself into form, but the upside of Rashford playing himself into form is that he's Rashford! James playing himself into form, for example, would be slightly better than an out-of-form Rashford, and that's not intended as a slight on James.
This is why I say lockdown has fecked us, cos it came at a time when everyone in the squad from Bruno and Martial, to McTominay and Fred were playing well and were in good form and rhythm. That all had to go back to zero when restart happened and the squad players, largely because of the circumstances, just have not had the opportunity to catch up.
Also, lest we forget, this is an atypical run-in. Where the games were once spread out over the course of 8-10 weeks, we are doing them in 4-6. No fitness coach at the outset of this season was planning to be in this position, but here we are. Unfortunately for us, our very small squad is being stretched to the limit, and hopefully it should have enough to come through the final game.
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So you reply to my post about comparing to last season by comparing it to last season again.
I agree we looked amazing when we started back , but just look at the running Bruno was doing for a start. Everything has slowed down. I agree we looked shut in the last few games, I shouted at the tele that we were last to every second ball, not closing down quick enough etc but I’m really hesitant to lay into anyone with how this *starred season has played out, it’s a joke and players should never have been put in this position
We were playing a different system before the restart, one that relied more on dynamism through the middle, where the CMs job was to carry the ball with them to push the team forward. Since the restart we have attempted to play our way through the opposition with slick passing and in that regard, both McTominay and Fred represent a step down to Pogba and Matic.
You must have noticed even Pogba has not attempted much to drive through the middle with the ball, something he's quite good at, because we aren't playing like that. The whole team moves forward with the ball systematically. Playing with Fred and McTominay would mean switching through our style of play but most managers are not comfortable doing that in the middle of a game when it's on a knife's edge.
Didn’t they have 48 hours more to recuperate though?
So if that's the case then players like Fred, McTominay should be sold this season? I mean what's the point of these players if we can't even trust them against bottom level teams, I dont see any value add keeping them in the side.
Btw I disagree completely with your post. These players are fresh, the players we had on the pitch were on their knees, barely able to jog. We couldn't keep possession as our players were exhausted which means they completely lacked concentration to get even basics right.
If we draw or win on Sunday, we're the only team in the league not to lose after the restart while also guaranteeing CL football next season (while scoring the most goals?).
This has been a unique end to the season, unlikely to ever be repeated. Given that we've improved our fitness an awful lot since Moyes/LVG/Jose, I can see us finishing next season much stronger. My only worry is a Europa run in August might give us a rough start to the new season (short break).
This has been a unique end to the season, unlikely to ever be repeated. Given that we've improved our fitness an awful lot since Moyes/LVG/Jose, I can see us finishing next season much stronger. My only worry is a Europa run in August might give us a rough start to the new season (short break).
This. We need to get Sancho to improve our first XI and then really focus on improving the level of the squad.
Also i think where we have options to rotate the Manager is afraid to try them. Against West ham he should have started McT and Fred in midfield and played Pogbaas a 10 first half and Bruno as a 10 in the second half. It would have given us the legs required to control the game.
Fair enough, but the proof is in the pudding unfortunately.
If it was only this game i'd say yeah Ok maybe it's mental pressure making us play fatigued, but we haven't looked right since the Southampton game.
Palace we got outplayed but 2 pieces of quality saved us. Chelsea well we don't need to speak about that... Now West Ham too? the whole team looks like it's running in sand.
This is what I have been thinking also;
It seems to me that when we play when we are not expected to win or are not clear favourites we have a good percentage of getting the job done but when we are expected to win in a pressure situation we tend to shit ourselves.
All of the top teams over the years have had big players for big games and Fergie used to say that Mark Hughes was the best that he had.
I just want to see a few of our guys step up and put these mid table teams to the sword on a consistent basis regardless of what stage of the season we are in.
Mate I agree with you there that our players looked done for last night. But the issue is hardly any manager implements such a big systematic change in the middle of an important game. They change formations or personnel but the structure of play doesn't change mid-game. Sure Ole could have bought on Fred and McT but then they would have had to play the system we were playing and its not something they excel in. McT was criticized on here for his display against Palace when the poor kid didn't do anything wrong. He was asked to deputize for Matic and he struggled to do that.
This does not mean the 2 of them need to be sold. There have been many matches were we played differently this season and will be many more next season where their style of play will be useful. You are of course free to disagree with me but I don't see what Ole could have done a lot different. We need better squad depth, simple as that. That's why I was shaking my head at posts on here a couple of weeks ago where people were claiming we can go for the title next season and do we really need Sancho and so on. Our first 11 when fit and on form, is very good. But they won't stay fit and on form an entire season so we need impeccable recruitment in the summer before we can talk about this team going on to bigger and better things.
I wish you were wrong but it certainly seems that way. The drop off in performance when the pressure is on is a real worry. For a club where high pressure games come thick and fast, it's worrying how they struggle when the pressure is on.
Fatigue is certainly an issue too but I don't think it would be as significant a problem if they were playing under less pressure.
The biggest issue Ole has just now is Bruno. He has nobody else he is willing to play in that role so Bruno is playing big minutes in almost every game.
Honestly, if it meant getting a world class centre back I'd be happy to pass on Sancho. If it was a straight choice between Koulibaly or Sancho, well that's like asking whether you prefer Lindelof or Greenwood in your first XI. I know who I'm picking.
However, at the very least we need to make sure that our first XI is not full of 8/9 out of 10s and the bench full of 5 out of 10s. Bruno's alternatives cannot be Mata, Lingard and Andreas. Mata's lost his legs, Lingard's lost his head and Andreas never had much of either. When you take Bruno out of our team...well then we become the same team that lost to Burnley etc. We need some 7 out of 10 players who can come in and perform even if the likes of Pogba and Fernandes need a rest.
Nice way to put it
Whatever is the system, the basic requirement for anything is players should be able to move, something our players couldn't. What's the point of keeping them on the pitch? Now this might even have impact on leicester game.
With all due respect, you are reaching a bit here with systematic change and everything. We have played 4-2-3-1 all season with double pivot and since Bruno was signed, McT and Fred both played alongside Bruno and did well.
Ole was just scared to make subs, maybe he was happy with the point and didn't want to make any changes proactively.
There article below before restart showed that we had to travel significantly further than other teams in this period even excluding the additional trip to Wembley. It definitely looks like its caught up with us.
https://theathletic.co.uk/1875450/2...-sleep-bournemouth-watford-manchester-united/
https://theathletic.co.uk/1875450/2...-sleep-bournemouth-watford-manchester-united/
Yeah, that's a decent point tbh. Someone said now the teams travel by bus, very busy schedule, travelling by bus, thin squad. No wonder we are struggling in the last few games.
The point is it at least puts a bit of fear in your opponent. Other teams fear Bruno. They don't fear the players we have behind him. When we take him off our opposition advance 10-20m. They no longer feel like they need to keep men back, just in case he does something spectacular. We saw it against Southampton, we saw it when we were getting beat by teams like Palace and Newcastle earlier in the season. A lot of teams in the Premier League, not just the top teams but the middle and bottom ranking teams, feel like they can play with freedom against us when our best players are out. Need I remind you we got horribly battered by West Ham earlier in the season? The players many people are talking about rotating in are the players that had us closer to the bottom of the table than the top of it in the winter of this season. Bruno is capable of that one moment of magic that makes opposition full backs that tiny bit more hesitant to go forward. You take him off and you're inviting pressure and we are not that good at resisting pressure.
Pretty much this.
United is still the team that has done the best since the restart yet you have nonsensical arguments asking why are other teams not feeling the fatigue. How could anyone use that argument when we've done the best out of all the teams in the league since the restart. I honestly also don't even see the issue here. Ole gambled with playing the same team to get him to this position(3rd) going into the final game, and the gamble has worked so far given our destiny is in our own hands.
We restarted the league in 5th place, we then gambled playing the same starting line up to get us the best possible results which they did and now we're going into the last game having overtaken 2 teams and sitting on third. I mean hasn't it worked so far. Sure we're looking tired but we're now in a far better position than where we started, so the gamble has paid off.
We are third, picked the most points since restart yet this place is having a full meltdown as if we haven't done anything good for ourselves to get us in our current position. This place is incredible
Another piece of evidence against tiredness being our main problem. That was our 6th game after the restart. Surely to feck they can manage 6 games in 4 weeks without falling apart, physically? I would also argue you could see warning signs against Bournemouth, our 4th game after the restart. Our brilliant attack bailed us out but we were lethargic and dozy as feck for large parts of that game too. Especially - yet again - in the opening period. Are we supposed to put that slow start down to tiredness too?
Before the lockdown, we had midfield of McTominay and Fred, along with Matic. All 3 were rotated and when Bruno was signed we were just 3 points behind Chelsea. So with Fred and McTominay we weren't close to bottom half.
If we go by that, we had midfield of McTominay and Fred when we won against Spurs, City and few other top teams.
Again same point, what's the point of these players if we can't even trust them against West Ham? I didn't say drop Bruno and play these players, we should sub him out when he didn't have anything left in the tank. He has played 4 games in 9 days and with his work rate and not a proper recovery day, how can we expect him to play at his best?
Ole's man management is very good but his squad management is poor. He doesn't know how to rotate.
I'm not saying it's the main reason but you can't watch our midfield and say they're not tired. Chelsea for example had 2 extra days rest. So they would've been more refreshed.
I should have been time specific when I said closer to the bottom half, there was a time in the winter when we were down in 14th place.
Facing West Ham presents very different challenges to facing the top teams. Psychologically, for the top teams we tend to be more up for it. Sadly we've adopted the game raiser, underdog mentality in most of those games. Tactically there are also a number of other challenges. Much of our success against top teams has been based on defending deep, being aggressive and countering at speed. That's exactly what the mid table teams mostly try to do to us. Fred and McTominay would have offered little against the low block West Ham used last night. We know that because we've struggled to break low blocks all season.
I know that Bruno needs a rest but, psychologically, when he is subbed it provides a boost to our opponents. We saw it against Southampton. Most sides feel like Bruno is the main threat and once he's gone it raises their belief they can beat us.
I don't think Ole doesn't know how to rotate. I think, rightly, he has very little faith in the squad options he has beyond the first XI.
Yes that would have been fine, but after a tough Southampton game we had 3 days to recover, then 2 days to recover again against Chelsea.
Southampton after our game went and lost to Brighton, we don't have that luxury, we have to keep winning.
You understand that whatever happened prior to that doesn't have much benefit. People keep saying "they've had 3 months off" like it's a good thing.
Go and play 4 games of football in 8 days and then tell me if you're able to perform at your maximum the next week. No amount of rest before that period would help you recover any faster, it's just too much too soon.
In hindsight we should have rotated players for either the Palace or Chelsea game. Even this West Ham match we didn't HAVE to win, we should have just let the first team have a whole week to prepare for Leicester.
That's my opinion anyway, we've played the same 11 pretty much every game for the last 2/3 weeks with only resting them when subbed early (if at all possible) and it's just not been enough.
People like Fred/Mctominay/James/Mata have been pretty under used.
There's a huge change between how we are playing now and how we were playing with McT and Fred in midfield. I never said they can't play well with Bruno, but the issue is we are playing a system different from what we were playing earlier. Why else don't you think the coaching staff doesn't start them and insists on playing Matic?There are numerous ways of playing in a double pivot and Pogba/Matic combo plays totally differently compared to the Fred/McT combo.
Chelsea lost to the best team in the league and better squad, not because they rotated and played Giroud/Willian instead of Abraham/Pulisic. They managed to score three - against most other teams that would have been enough to win.
I just said earlier that we do not have have a good enough squad at the moment to rotate and compete on all fronts. Which is why we should pick our battles wisely. So thanks for reiterating my point with the fa cup example.
Most people here seem to think that we should have rested the first 11 against Chelsea on Sunday. I understand that you disagree but we’re not supposed to agree on everything.
You mean the best team in the league that arsenal just beat?