Top 4 Race 19/20 | duffer: "We [Chelsea] are getting 3rd. Despite what the lunatics in here think, Man United are not all that."

[KennyBurner]

Do we believe we will get top 4? If so - why?

Yes and it should be very easy. We are the 3rd best team in this league. With everyone fit I’m very optimistic we should be able to win the remaining games. Before Bruno I would have thought most of our problems came from not being able to break down sides but that shouldn’t be a problem at the moment.

at this point us not finishing top 4 and winning the Europa with a full squad would be down to bad team selection/coaching. Ole needs to make sure we are always on top form at the start of each game. In the past we have always started slow and things usually pick up in the second half but with Bruno I’m sensing a more Aggressive approach in our openings.

I don’t know if Leicester will continue on their lucky runs or if Chelsea will suddenly stop shipping goals against any level of opposition but I’m sure they will both drop points in their remaining games. Chelsea are just 3 points ahead of us, there is no way we aren’t surpassing them at the very least.

 

[Shark]

Do we believe we will get top 4? If so - why?

Is this a serious question? You only have to take one look at our fixture list to see why we should be finishing 4th, its not like we're some some kind of mid table outfit, we've some top class players in this side. Failure to do so and Ole needs to go and those who think we shouldn't be finishing 4th minimum have got to be kidding and have lowered their standards to an unprecedented level.

 

[PoTMS]

Is this a serious question? You only have to take one look at our fixture list to see why we should be finishing 4th, its not like we're some some kind of mid table outfit, we've some top class players in this side. Failure to do so and Ole needs to go.

I agree. 4th place is the minimum. If we can not advance the 3 points needed on Chelsea with our respective run ins, Ole has to go and we should bring in Pochettino.

 

[Lynty]

...Ole has to go and we should bring in Pochettino.

Ole needs to go and those who think we shouldn't be finishing 4th minimum have got to be kidding and have lowered their standards to an unprecedented level.

Nice to see the cafe hasn't changed.

 

[Shark]

Nice to see the cafe hasn't changed.

If he doesn't finish minimum 4th place with a fully fit squad and a very favorable fixture list until the end of the season, well then there's very little point in continuing with Ole, if you don't want to hear that well then fair enough. He also has an opportunity through the Europa of course but we shouldn't really need to qualify through that.

Seriously look at it this way, this is a manager that we expect to be challenging for titles soon. If he can't bridge a 3 point gap with Chelsea for 4th with the players he has brought in and back from injury well then how do we expect him to challenge for the biggest trophies? when does it come to a point when we expect CL football, in 5 years?

 

[Kag]

If he doesn't finish minimum 4th place with a fully fit squad and a very favorable fixture list until the end of the season, well then there's very little point in continuing with Ole, if you don't want to hear that well then fair enough. He also has an opportunity through the Europa of course but we shouldn't really need to qualify through that.

What happens if we were to finish fifth by a point? Or by one goal via the difference? Or what about if it goes the other way - would you keep him on if we managed to sneak into fourth through an 89th minute winner? Or would you look at the situation with greater logic and take more variables into consideration? I ask these questions because I find these kinds of conversations very one-dimensional and oddly principled; as if final position is all that matters, irrespective of the context.

For what it’s worth, I think we get top four. Just about.

 

[PoTMS]

What happens if we were to finish fifth by a point? Or by one goal via the difference? Or what about if it goes the other way - would you keep him on if we managed to sneak into fourth through an 89th minute winner? Or would you look at the situation with greater logic and take more variables into consideration? I ask these questions because I find these kinds of conversations very one-dimensional and oddly principled; as if final position is all that matters, irrespective of the context.

For what it’s worth, I think we get top four. Just about.

Football is ultimately about results. Not finishing top four has huge ramifications on our plans next season in terms of finances and transfer targets. Not just Champions League money, but sponsorship deals that have performance related clauses, not forgetting our shirt sponsors are up for renewal. Failure to achieve a minimum finish of top 4 when we have a very favourable fixture list is grounds for dismissal imo, especially when a better manager is available for a limited period of time. It looks like United and Woodward agree, you only have to look at the Van Gaal situation.

Likewise, if we scrape through into the top 4 places playing god awful football with the players we have and the fixture list we have remaining, there may be a consideration in replacing the manager, but much less so as at least he's performed his basic requirements as a football manager for a club like Manchester United.

 

[Shark]

What happens if we were to finish fifth by a point? Or by one goal via the difference? Or what about if it goes the other way - would you keep him on if we managed to sneak into fourth through an 89th minute winner? Or would you look at the situation with greater logic and take more variables into consideration? I ask these questions because I find these kinds of conversations very one-dimensional and oddly principled; as if final position is all that matters, irrespective of the context.

For what it’s worth, I think we get top four. Just about.

I'm all for throwing in context, but lets be real here, Ole's job is to manage one of the biggest clubs in the world and he now has a team that's more than capable. There are no excuses for not getting us CL football and the fans that somehow believe they can dictate when we should expect CL football can frankly bugger off, because they'll never stop creating excuses even if we're in the same position five years from now. As I edited into the quoted post, Ole will be expected to challenge for the title within the next two seasons, if he cannot take that first step that even our previous two managers achieved in their time here, who are both considered failures by the majority of the Caf, well then it's just getting silly.

 

[Rish Sawhney]

I’m beginning to think Ole’s job is to manage the most spoilt fan base in English football history more than anything else.

 

[Kag]

Football is ultimately about results. Not finishing top four has huge ramifications on our plans next season in terms of finances and transfer targets. Not just Champions League money, but sponsorship deals that have performance related clauses, not forgetting our shirt sponsors are up for renewal. Failure to achieve a minimum finish of top 4 when we have a very favourable fixture list is grounds for dismissal imo, especially when a better manager is available for a limited period of time. It looks like United and Woodward agree, you only have to look at the Van Gaal situation.

Likewise, if we scrape through into the top 4 places playing god awful football with the players we have and the fixture list we have remaining, there may be a consideration in replacing the manager, but much less so as at least he's performed his basic requirements as a football manager for a club like Manchester United.

Nah. The style of football and the atmosphere surrounding the club (in addition to Mourinho’s availability) had more to do with Van Gaal’s departure than it did missing out on top four due to goal difference. He was finished by Christmas whether top four was achieved or not.

The club is not going to wait until the standings for this season are complete to then make a massive decision on Ole. He’s here to stay, work is underway, and short of losing the next twelve games in succession, nothing is going to change that. So, no, the club doesn’t agree.

 

[Kag]

I'm all for throwing in context, but lets be real here, Ole's job is to manage one of the biggest clubs in the world and he now has a team that's more than capable. There are no excuses for not getting us CL football and the fans that somehow believe they can dictate when we should expect CL football can frankly bugger off, because they'll never stop creating excuses even if we're in the same position five years from now. As I edited into the quoted post, Ole will be expected to challenge for the title within the next two seasons, if he cannot take that first step that even our previous two managers achieved in their time here, who are both considered failures by the majority of the Caf, well then it's just getting silly.

You’re essentially using a twelve game mini-league, in the midst of global madness, as the bar by which you assess Ole’s future employment. I think that’s barmy.

I will be disappointed if we don’t overcome Chelsea this season. When fully fit, I think our squad is better and the first team is not far away from being a very good one. I also think that Lingard and Pereira would struggle to start for most teams in the Premier League and we’ve had to use them as our creative options for at least two thirds of the games we’ve played so far. Our midfield options have, at times, been relegation material.

If we don’t get top four, I don’t think it will because of our final twelve games. Regardless, I think we’ll see some good stuff from now until the end of the season and the club is in the best position it’s been in since Ferguson left the job.

 

[Shark]

Nah. The style of football and the atmosphere surrounding the club (in addition to Mourinho’s availability) had more to do with Van Gaal’s departure than it did missing out on top four due to goal difference. He was finished by Christmas whether top four was achieved or not.

The club is not going to wait until the standings for this season are complete to then make a massive decision on Ole. He’s here to stay, work is underway, and short of losing the next twelve games in succession, nothing is going to change that. So, no, the club doesn’t agree.

You honestly believe the current atmosphere will continue when our star players realize they're going into another season without CL football. The mood right now is fantastic because we're showing progress and winning and Ole deserves a lot of credit for that and I'm sure even he will be holding high standards for himself as the manager of this club. Yet there's fans constantly lowering his standards.

 

[Spaghetti]

If he doesn't finish minimum 4th place with a fully fit squad and a very favorable fixture list until the end of the season, well then there's very little point in continuing with Ole, if you don't want to hear that well then fair enough. He also has an opportunity through the Europa of course but we shouldn't really need to qualify through that.

Seriously look at it this way, this is a manager that we expect to be challenging for titles soon. If he can't bridge a 3 point gap with Chelsea for 4th with the players he has brought in and back from injury well then how do we expect him to challenge for the biggest trophies? when does it come to a point when we expect CL football, in 5 years?

How do you know it won't be a squad with several injuries in a couple of weeks?

 

[Shark]

You’re essentially using a twelve game mini-league, in the midst of global madness, as the bar by which you assess Ole’s future employment. I think that’s barmy.

I will be disappointed if we don’t overcome Chelsea this season. When fully fit, I think our squad is better and the first team is not far away from being a very good one. I also think that Lingard and Pereira would struggle to start for most teams in the Premier League and we’ve had to use them as our creative options for at least two thirds of the games we’ve played so far. Our midfield options have, at times, been relegation material.

If we don’t get top four, I don’t think it will because of our final twelve games. Regardless, I think we’ll see some good stuff from now until the end of the season and the club is in the best position it’s been in since Ferguson left the job.

And that's about to change with Pogba and Fernandes regularly starting together along with Rashford also back from injury. If Ole still had star players out I could understand the excuses, but as you say with a fully fit squad and the fixtures facing us in comparison to Chelsea, there are no excuses.

 

[Kag]

You honestly believe the current atmosphere will continue when our star players realize they're going into another season without CL football. The mood right now is fantastic because we're showing progress and winning and Ole deserves a lot of credit for that and I'm sure even he will be holding high standards for himself as the manager of this club. Yet there's fans constantly lowering his standards.

The atmosphere surrounding the club isn’t toxic and I don’t expect it to be even if we don’t quite make it into the top four. I think the club would get on with it and continue to build the squad effectively like it recently has. Our “star players” aren’t in a position to do anything either. The only way is down for the vast majority of them and those that might look elsewhere would do well to look around and realise they’re at one of the most financially secure clubs in the world. Now isn’t the time to be leaving the security of Manchester United, that’s for certain.

 

[Shark]

How do you know it won't be a squad with several injuries in a couple of weeks?

I don't but if that happens I'll obviously adjust my expectations. As things stand though, I stand by my opinion.

 

[Kag]

And that's about to change with Pogba and Fernandes regularly starting together along with Rashford also back from injury. If Ole still had star players out I could understand the excuses, but as you say with a fully fit squad and the fixtures facing us in comparison to Chelsea, there are no excuses.

I haven’t made any excuses. I’m saying that twelve games won’t determine whether or not I think Ole should be our manager. The club won’t change its mind either.

 

[Shark]

I haven’t made any excuses. I’m saying that twelve games won’t determine whether or not I think Ole should be our manager. The club won’t change its mind either.

You know this for certain, how? Woodward will one hundred percent want CL football, as sponsors including Adidas will be hanging on it, the idea that he'll just brush it off is bonkers. We've been through a horrific epidemic but the PL isn't restarting for a laugh, it's restarting to give clubs a chance to still achieve their goals be it relegation, CL place or in the scouse case the title.

 

[Lynty]

I agree that based on the fixture list and as long as our key players stay fit, not finishing in the top 4 would be a failure.

It's a bit black and white to be calling for heads after he's done a good job given the squad difficulties this season. A review on his position would be a better phrase.

We could play wonderful football, but drop vital points through a keeper error, defense falling asleep on one occasion or we get VAR'd. Miss out on top 4 by a point and you want him sacked.

 

[romufc]

I agree that based on the fixture list and as long as our key players stay fit, not finishing in the top 4 would be a failure.

It's a bit black and white to be calling for heads after he's done a good job given the squad difficulties this season. A review on his position would be a better phrase.

We could play wonderful football, but drop vital points through a keeper error, defense falling asleep on one occasion or we get VAR'd. Miss out on top 4 by a point and you want him sacked.

It might be a bit haste to make a judgement on Ole just based on where we finish this season.

Ole has had his ups and downs this season, where when he has had the players fit, we have seen what he is trying to implement and in other times it is the same old and lose silly games playing crap football.

These few games that remain, it would be good to see the manner of victories and defeats. If we are toothless in 60% of games then no matter where we finish the jury will be out on Ole.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

[/QUOTE]

I’m beginning to think Ole’s job is to manage the most spoilt fan base in English football history more than anything else.

Or you just have really low standards about the performances of this club.

We are Manchester United. We're not Norwich or Brighton where not getting top 4 is acceptable. Do you the likes of Madrid or Barca would have as much patience? Barca just sacked their manager when he was in first place.

Stop treating us like a small club.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I think it will be very close. Think Ole should be given another season given the circumstances even if we fail now.

 

[Kag]

You know this for certain, how? Woodward will one hundred percent want CL football, as sponsors including Adidas will be hanging on it, the idea that he'll just brush it off is bonkers. We've been through a horrific epidemic but the PL isn't restarting for a laugh, it's restarting to give clubs a chance to still achieve their goals be it relegation, CL place or in the scouse case the title.

Because it’s just overwhelmingly obvious. They had no interest in doing so when we were struggling to win a game; it isn’t going to happen now.

You can make as many straw men as you like; you and I both know that Ole will be in charge come the start of next season. It’s a reductive debate.

 

[Rish Sawhney]

Or you just have really low standards about the performances of this club.

We are Manchester United. We're not Norwich or Brighton where not getting top 4 is acceptable. Do you the likes of Madrid or Barca would have as much patience? Barca just sacked their manager when he was in first place.

Stop treating us like a small club.

There’s a difference between acceptable and fireable. You can have a disappointing season and not fire your manager you know. I’m personally tired of this manager merry go round and sincerely want us to pick a guy we trust enough to stick with even when things go wrong. Our structure unlike a Real or Barca is not built to handle constant chopping and changing of managers. And that used to mean something to our fans beyond just wanting to be a Barca/Real wannabe club.

 

[PoTMS]

Because it’s just overwhelmingly obvious. They had no interest in doing so when we were struggling to win a game; it isn’t going to happen now.

You can make as many straw men as you like; you and I both know that Ole will be in charge come the start of next season. It’s a reductive debate.

Nah. It isn't overwhelming obvious. You don't know a thing more than I do so please stop with your holier than thou attitude.

 

[Remember the geese]

Nah. It isn't overwhelming obvious. You don't know a thing more than I do so please stop with your holier than thou attitude.

He isn't going anywhere. It's that simple really. You'd have to be stupid to think otherwise.

 

[CM]

Nah. It isn't overwhelming obvious. You don't know a thing more than I do so please stop with your holier than thou attitude.

The writing had been on the wall for quite some time with Moyes, van Gaal and Mourinho before any action was taken. I think it's safe to assume Solskjaer's job is not at risk any time soon barring a complete collapse in performances and results for the foreseeable.

 

[PoTMS]

The writing had been on the wall for quite some time with Moyes, van Gaal and Mourinho before any action was taken. I think it's safe to assume Solskjaer's job is not at risk any time soon barring a complete collapse in performances and results for the foreseeable.

Before our recent upturn in form, you could argue the writing was on the wall for Ole. The loss to Burnley was a defining moment for lots of fans. We've been lucky that all our other rivals bar Liverpool have been equally crap. Granted, we'd picked up some form in the 6 weeks after which has helped Ole greatly. If it all turns to shit again, though, questions will be asked and you have to wonder if our 6 week spell was just another purple patch and open yourself to the possibility Ole could be pushed out or have his role changed what with Pochettino being available.

Van Gaal similarly had a shit December in the last year of his reign but nearly pulled it back it towards the end of the season, and if not for losing our lead at Upton Park, we would have had secured Champions League football to add to our FA Cup win. There is nothing to suggest we would not have given him another fair crack at the whip the following season. The only people who would know that though is the people in charge at United, not some guy off RedCafe.net spouting as if it's fact.

 

[CM]

Before our recent upturn in form, you could argue the writing was on the wall for Ole. The loss to Burnley was a defining moment for lots of fans. We've been lucky that all our other rivals bar Liverpool have been equally crap. Granted, we'd picked up some form in the 6 weeks after which has helped Ole greatly. If it all turns to shit again, though, questions will be asked and you have to wonder if it was just another purple patch and admit there is a possibility he could be pushed out or have his role changed what with Pochettino being available.

Van Gaal similarly had a shit December in the last year of his reign but nearly pulled it back it towards the end of the season, and if not for losing our lead at Upton Park, we would have had secured Champions League football to add to our FA Cup win. There is nothing to suggest we would not have given him another fair crack at the whip the following season. The only people who would know that is the people in charge at United, not some guy off RedCafe.net.

None of that accounts for context though. I quite liked van Gaal, as a character at least, but there was far more grumblings among the fans and scrutiny in the media about his slow build-up and possession based football.

I think it's fair to say he would've been replaced anyway. We missed out on top 4 on goal difference that season, the margins don't get any finer than that - and van Gaal still finished the season with a trophy to his name. Woodward would've been courting Mourinho regardless.

 

[Paxi]

Nice to see the cafe hasn't changed.

changed from being what?

 

[Tel074]

Is this a serious question? You only have to take one look at our fixture list to see why we should be finishing 4th, its not like we're some some kind of mid table outfit, we've some top class players in this side. Failure to do so and Ole needs to go and those who think we shouldn't be finishing 4th minimum have got to be kidding and have lowered their standards to an unprecedented level.

Sweet Christ didn't take you long to get the Old has to go comments started again haha.So if we win every game until the end of the season yet still don't finish 4th Ole should go ?

 

[Shark]

Sweet Christ didn't take you long to get the Old has to go comments started again haha.So if we win every game until the end of the season yet still don't finish 4th Ole should go ?

That'd be an absolutely freak circumstance, so no. We win every game and we're finishing top four, look at Chelsea's fixtures.

 

[Leftback99]

The Spurs game is crucial. Win that and I'd be reasonably confident we could get 4th, lose and it's likely gone. I expect we'll gain ground on Leicester but it will be too little too late.

 

[Kag]

Nah. It isn't overwhelming obvious. You don't know a thing more than I do so please stop with your holier than thou attitude.

Being right doesn’t make me holier than thou. It just makes me right. Short of losing the next twelve games 10-0 Ole will be our manager at the start of next season. This isn‘t a worthy debate.

 

[rotherham_red]

The Spurs game is crucial. Win that and I'd be reasonably confident we could get 4th, lose and it's likely gone. I expect we'll gain ground on Leicester but it will be too little too late.

No it isn't. Chelsea still have both City and Liverpool still to play, as well as Wolves and I think, Sheffield United. We can afford to lose v Spurs and still make it.

 

[Leftback99]

No it isn't. Chelsea still have both City and Liverpool still to play, as well as Wolves and I think, Sheffield United. We can afford to lose v Spurs and still make it.

We have tough games ourselves with a 3 point deficit (lose to Spurs and it could be 6 by the first weekend). Liverpool won't be as difficult after the league is won.

 

[Sandikan]

Nice to see the cafe hasn't changed.

Yep, straight into the Ole must go nonsense and we haven't even played our first game back!

 

[SambaBoy]

It's difficult to say what impact covid-19 will have on the fixtures. Our main problem all season has been a lack of creativity from the central and wide areas. Bruno and Pogba are two of the most creative players in the league combined with Rashford and Martial being fully fit and Greenwood being more used to first team football then you would have to say we look strong.

Our form before the season stopped was very impressive, the ability to switch to a 3-5-2 in some games was also a good asset to have and I just hope we can return in the same sort of form. I know posters are saying clubs are getting injured players back etc but surely no team are getting the quality of Pogba and Rashford back.

 

[Santoryo]

The Spurs game is crucial. Win that and I'd be reasonably confident we could get 4th, lose and it's likely gone. I expect we'll gain ground on Leicester but it will be too little too late.

Hyperbole

 

[Rooney in Paris]

It's difficult to say what impact covid-19 will have on the fixtures. Our main problem all season has been a lack of creativity from the central and wide areas. Bruno and Pogba are two of the most creative players in the league combined with Rashford and Martial being fully fit and Greenwood being more used to first team football then you would have to say we look strong.

Our form before the season stopped was very impressive, the ability to switch to a 3-5-2 in some games was also a good asset to have and I just hope we can return in the same sort of form. I know posters are saying clubs are getting injured players back etc but surely no team are getting the quality of Pogba and Rashford back.

I agree with the last part of your post (it's a massive boost for us), but I'd say relatively speaking, Spurs would be happier getting Son and Kane back. While I think that the duo we're getting back is of better quality (though some might dispute it), I was more comfortable going into this game in March with the personnel we had than they had. I'm not as confident now.