Transfer Muppet Draft 2nd Semi Final - Annahnomoss vs crappycraperson

[Moby]

The aim of this poll is to decide the winner in this fantasy game contested between two sides assembled through the method of drafting. For the purpose of this game, all players would be considered as being at their respective peaks. I invite all posters to go through the formations, tactics and arguments that will follow in the thread and kindly leave their vote. Thanks.

Annahnomoss' Tactics

Tactics:
4-2-3-1 with the dream wing pairings of Rivaldo-Figo-Cafu-Marcelo, flanking the jet-heeled spine of Ronaldo-Zidane-Seedorf-Vieira-Lucio-Ferdinand, the combination of flair, technique and pace of this team will be devastating. The offensive quartet is built around Ronaldo who is reunited on the outside of him with former Barcelona teammates Rivaldo and Figo. Behind them is the greatest attacking midfielder available in the draft, Zidane, who carved open the famous Italian defenses of the 90's on a weekly basis for Juventus in his peak. Ronaldo and Zidane have never played together in their peak which is why this team will work much better than the Galacticos which consisted of a post-injury Ronaldo.

Cafu and Figo will form one of the best wings possible in this draft where both of them are incredibly good both in the defense and the offense, balancing out the other wing where Rivaldo will have more freedom on the counter together with Ronaldo like in Brazil's WC winning team of '02. Zidane has the ability to provide cover if necessary out left when Rivaldo cuts in with the ball at his feet which means both Zidane and Rivaldo can play to their strengths in the same match.

Defense:
Team Theon is comfortable attacking both through counters with Rivaldo and Ronaldo being maybe the two top attackers in this regard and against organized defenses equally well. The game-plan will be to play defensive enough to always have an advantage against a possible counter from team Crappy meaning my opponent will be forced to attempt longer organized offenses as his first counter-outlet will be sufficiently blocked. As Crappy has far less attacking threat against an organized defense and on the counter this rat-and-mouse game of "Who gets to counter" which will force both teams to be up against organized defenses - which works in my favour.

With Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Figo and Zidane I can afford playing a balanced game as they are bound to create chances even with a more defensively balanced central midfield duo. The full-backs will still venture forward to provide overlaps when the ball is on their side, meaning one full-back always stays behind with the CB's and CM's who will stay deep and pick their forward runs only when there is a great chance of an opportunity forward.

Seedorf is equally capable as a RM as a CM which will be important helping the defense against Ronaldinho out wide and centrally. The goal for the midfielder and defenders will be to suffocate Ronaldinho from getting balls in front of him which will force them to either play Nedved who is less of a counter-thread or pass Ronaldinho with balls further down his own pitch which means my team will get organized defensively before he reaches my box.

This leaves Nedved and RVN as the counter-attacking outlets whom aren't quite as brilliant as Ronaldinho at least.

Players:
Rivaldo was truly a top class match-winner of the highest order, a breathtakingly special wizard who could pull anything out of the hat and conjure up outrageous goals from now-where to win matches, a dazzling one-in-a-billion gem bountifully blessed with unbelievable skill, dexterity, pace and strength.

The most capped Portuguese player in history, Figo was European and World Footballer of the year, dazzling the world at both club and international level, setting the biggest stage alight with his bewitching technique and match-winning brilliance.

A magnificent thoroughbred of an attacking midfielder, Kaka’s searing pace, incisive dribbling, creative passing and goalscoring prowess made him a formidable threat to any defence.



Twin Midfield Dynamos
Seedorf and Vieira are two incredibly all-rounded midfield dynamos which will support the offensive and defensive transitions with their combination of power and control, strength and technique.

Ranked the 7th greatest player in Champions League history and named in Real Madrid's Team of the Century, Clarence Seedorf, Il Professore, won the Champions League 4 times with 3 different clubs and was twice selected in UEFA Team of the Year, winning the best midfielder accolade in 2007. A player of supreme class who is mentally light years ahead of his opponents, Seedorf has immaculate technique on the ball and an impossible blend of physique and mobility. If you have not seen him giving United a master class in that 2007 Champions League semi-final, witness his flawless manipulation of the ball and the breathtaking technique behind his masterful control

all-round influence and decisive impact on games makes him the best midfielder and most complete footballer in the world today.

running the entire left flank for the Galacticos for 7 years now, an incredible achievement at arguably the biggest club in the world



Paulo Maldini said: said:

The rule is: if you cannot get back, you must not go forward. The current best specialist is Marcelo, who gets it right in both areas.​

Roberto Carlos said: said:

Marcelo has more technical ability than me​

TEAM ANNAHNOMOSS

TEAM CRAPPYCRAPERSON

Crappycraperson's Tactics

Defense

- Use the back line of 5 players to absorb any pressure the opposition's attack will put up.
- Montero, Peruzzi and Thuram are all used to playing in back 5.
-Martinez will play as the 'free' defender in back 5. He will be sitting slightly in front of Montero and Thuram to close down any space for Zidane to pass into or move into. He would not be man marking Zidane since that is no his strength but sitting in front of defense to close down any passage of ball from the middle.
-Add to that Edgar Davids also operating in the same area and Scholes (post 2006, playing as a deep-lying playmaker) closing down any free space, there is simply no way opposition will get any joy through the middle.

Attack - primarily via Counter attacks

Only way for the opposition to score would be to commit more men forwards. His both full backs for starters are attack minded and at least one will be going forward at all times. In the MF who ever plays out of Seedorf or Vidal would want to get involved into attack leaving Vieira as the DM.
Any time the oppositon attack breaks, I have the perfect player in Scholes to ping a ball forward to launch a quick counter. Even Martinez is capable of playing the ball from the back. Either of Carlos or Alves will be marauding forward, Nedved scored plenty of goals in counter attack for both Czech and Juve and then there is Ronaldinho. Opposition will have at best 3 or 4 players at back to deal with as many players rushing at them.

Match ups that will define the game

Nedved vs Marcelo

Marcelo is 'alright' defensively. Nedved, one of the most hard working players ever, would make sure he does not get any free runs offensively while Marcelo is simply not good enough to deal with him. Add to that Alves making forward runs whom Rivaldo is unlikely to track. That left side would be get completely overrun. On the other hand Alves has Thuram for support to deal with Rivaldo. Martinez as free defender would allow Thuram to step out. Rivaldo never played as a proper left winger anyway, he will cut in almost every time, running into a congested central area where all 3 of Davids, Scholes and Martinez will be operating.

Vieira as the most defensive MF

Vieira excelled when he had either Makelele behind him or Gilberto Silva. He does not have such a MF with him here. Asking him to play as the most defensive player out of frond 6 is definitely against his peak usage and would leave him stranded given both the full backs are also of the attacking nature.

Who will deal with Ronaldinho?

It will be beteween Cafu and Vieira to deal with him. Cafu will find himself upfield many a times and he is alos unlikely to follow Ronaldinho towards the middle. And as good as Vieira was I would always bank of Dinho to take him 1 v 1.

 

[Moby]

@Annahnomoss @crappycraperson

 

[crappycraperson]

Few things in reply to you tactics -

- Nedved is not brilliant when it comes to CA? What? A player who can do this -
can most definitely run onto any of the Scholes' uber balls and disptach it into the net.
The same myth about Ruud not suited to CA again. Pace is an asset when it comes to counter attacks but it not a necessity by any means. I am baffled that people think that you can neuter Ruud by playing a high line against him.

- Rivaldo on the left is not a dream pairing by any imagination. I can dig our quotes but it is common knowledge that he threw a hissy fit at Barca when he was forced to do that by Van Gaal. Annahmoss actually thought myself playing Ribery on the right was an issue, so I fail to see how he can argue that Rivaldo on left would have him playing at his best.

- Opposition's plan to use counter attacks. I fail to see how that is going to work given I have 3 central defenders in there, with two deep lying CMs, and then two full backs to boot! Not to mention his most defensive CM is Vieira! Seedorf frequently stated at Milan that even in the diamond he wanted to play as the most advanced CM, he is a well rounded player but almost all of defensive work will be on Vieira, who simply has too many tasks to take care of here. Does he cover for the attacking full backs or does he anchor the space on the middle? Asking Seedorf to help out defensively against Goofy is a bit ridiculous IMO, he is not suited for that kind of role at all and it would be a complete waste of his talent.

 

[crappycraperson]

@Annahnomoss - have voted for myself.. suggest u do the same

 

[Annahnomoss]

Crappycraperson's Tactics

Attack - primarily via Counter attacks

Only way for the opposition to score would be to commit more men forwards. His both full backs for starters are attack minded and at least one will be going forward at all times. In the MF who ever plays out of Seedorf or Vidal would want to get involved into attack leaving Vieira as the DM.

Nedved vs Marcelo

Vieira as the most defensive MF

Vieira excelled when he had either Makelele behind him or Gilberto Silva. He does not have such a MF with him here. Asking him to play as the most defensive player out of frond 6 is definitely against his peak usage and would leave him stranded given both the full backs are also of the attacking nature.

Who will deal with Ronaldinho?

It will be beteween Cafu and Vieira to deal with him. Cafu will find himself upfield many a times and he is alos unlikely to follow Ronaldinho towards the middle. And as good as Vieira was I would always bank of Dinho to take him 1 v 1."

I think I have addressed these issues in my tactics by making some slight changes. Seedorf for example will be playing defensively balanced on the right side of the midfield, as a utility player he has played most roles in his career and his tag as a utility player comes from his tactical flexibility.

This means both Vieira and Seedorf will be equally defensive, and more importantly that Ronaldinho will be tracked by Seedorf who has experience as a RM and a CM meaning he is for a CM very comfortable defending both areas where Ronaldinho wants to attack. Seedorf together with the three defenders who stays back(2 cb's and one of the full-backs) will make sure Ronaldinho is suffocated from receiving the ball at his feet moving forward.

He will be making sure Ronaldinho have to run towards his own goal to receive the first ball on the counter which will allow my team enough time to get an organized defense going which is something my opponent isn't comfortable against. His only way to handle such a scenario is by pushing up more people forward which will allow me as good chances to counter as him - but I will have Rivaldo/Ronaldo/Figo/Zidane doing it instead of Nedved/RVN(As Ronaldinho as a first route will be suffocated most often).

When Ronaldinho has the ball on the left against Marcelo he is very rarely going to attack the outside. He nearly never beat his man on the outside but instead thrived on cutting inside. This means Marcelo's defensive abilities won't be challenged like Roberto Carlos will against Figo-Cafu for example.

Figo and Cafu is an equal or bigger threat attacking against Ronaldinho-Carlos than Nedved and Alves are against Rivaldo and Marcelo.​

 

[crappycraperson]

Figo and Cafu is an equal or bigger threat attacking against Ronaldinho-Carlos than Nedved and Alves are against Rivaldo and Marcelo.​

Firstly, may be it is just me but I don't see Seedorf as a player who can play the DM role at all. I won't bang on about it but I don't see him excelling in that role or having any kind of impact. Having Seedorf trying to shackle Dinho is just a complete mis-match. Gattuso Seedorf's team mate at Milan failed to stop Dinho so I find it odd you think Seedorf would up for the job. It is a waste of a player out there.

The difference is me having 3 at the back. Carlos has support from Montero if he gets double teamed at any point not to mention Davids is on the same side of the pitch! I would actually prefer if Cafu went forward as often he does anyway.. having Dinho free on the break is easiest way for my side to score. Regardless Dinho does not even need space to make any impact, he has proven himself against tight defenses again and again.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I voted for myself as well.

I won't commit Vieira and Seedorf unless a great chance presents itself for them to step in to space and unleash a shot. But in terms of their general position it will be to remain deep and be passing outlets and making sure a counter-attack will be 3 vs 5 and that Ronaldinho will be forced to move towards his own goal to find space, rather than receiving a ball at his feet and running straight towards my defense.

Rivaldo-Ronaldo-Figo are better than Ronaldinho-RVN-Nedved in terms of counters especially as Ronaldinho will be focused by the defense meaning RVN-Nedved will be the main outlets.

In an organized attack I remain equally comfortable, adding Zidane in behind that trio to find through-balls and just one moment of magic from quartet will result in a great chance or a goal.

You however don't have the team set up for attacking an organized defense as good as you have specialized your team at counters. So whenever I can stop the first wave, the organized attack to come will be of a lower quality. If you stop the first wave from Rivaldo-Ronaldo-Figo you are still going to have a bad time when I have an organized attack leaving me with more routes to a goal.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Firstly, may be it is just me but I don't see Seedorf as a player who can play the DM role at all. I won't bang on about it but I don't see him excelling in that role or having any kind of impact. Having Seedorf trying to shackle Dinho is just a complete mis-match. Gattuso Seedorf's team mate at Milan failed to stop Dinho so I find it odd you think Seedorf would up for the job. It is a waste of a player out there.

The difference is me having 3 at the back. Carlos has support from Montero if he gets double teamed at any point not to mention Davids is on the same side of the pitch! I would actually prefer if Cafu went forward as often he does anyway.. having Dinho free on the break is easiest way for my side to score. Regardless Dinho does not even need space to make any impact, he has proven himself against tight defenses again and again.

Seedorf is playing a withdrawn CM role, he won't man-mark Ronaldinho he will together with three defenders make sure that Ronaldinho needs to drop deep to receive the ball.

As long as Ronaldinho is forced to receive the ball further down than Seedorf and Vieira are, I will have 5 players on the right side of the ball for the counter.

Also, you having three centre backs means you have less players in the midfield and offense. Which is a trade-off I am happy with as I can't see Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Figo or Zidane go a game without some great plays and dribbles.

All of those players has great shots, so even Zidane beating Scholes can lead to a dangerous shot. Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Figo all have the dribbling and flair to beat the most congested defenses and unleash a shot or a pass side-ways to Ronaldo in front of goal.

 

[crappycraperson]

I voted for myself as well.

I won't commit Vieira and Seedorf unless a great chance presents itself for them to step in to space and unleash a shot. But in terms of their general position it will be to remain deep and be passing outlets and making sure a counter-attack will be 3 vs 5 and that Ronaldinho will be forced to move towards his own goal to find space, rather than receiving a ball at his feet and running straight towards my defense.

Rivaldo-Ronaldo-Figo are better than Ronaldinho-RVN-Nedved in terms of counters especially as Ronaldinho will be focused by the defense meaning RVN-Nedved will be the main outlets.

In an organized attack I remain equally comfortable, adding Zidane in behind that trio to find through-balls and just one moment of magic from quartet will result in a great chance or a goal.

You however don't have the team set up for attacking an organized defense as good as you have specialized your team at counters. So whenever I can stop the first wave, the organized attack to come will be of a lower quality. If you stop the first wave from Rivaldo-Ronaldo-Figo you are still going to have a bad time when I have an organized attack leaving me with more routes to a goal.

You have conveniently side stepped Rivaldo on the left issue. Rivaldo does not work as a proper left winger, he would want to operate in the same space Zidane does. It is a waste of a great player out there IMO. Just about stacking the team full of big names rather than having a proper team. Perhaps it is fitting for a galacticos theme

Seedorf as a withdrawn or deep CM? One of his main assets was those forward runs. Imagine if I had played Scholes circa '99-'02 and played him as a deep CM. Would make no sense That is why I specifically mentioned this Scholes post 2006 version. There is simply no way Seedorf would have any kind of defensive impact against a peak Dinho, it will be just another body for him to get past.

 

[crappycraperson]

Seedorf is playing a withdrawn CM role, he won't man-mark Ronaldinho he will together with three defenders make sure that Ronaldinho needs to drop deep to receive the ball.

As long as Ronaldinho is forced to receive the ball further down than Seedorf and Vieira are, I will have 5 players on the right side of the ball for the counter.

Also, you having three centre backs means you have less players in the midfield and offense. Which is a trade-off I am happy with as I can't see Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Figo or Zidane go a game without some great plays and dribbles.

All of those players has great shots, so even Zidane beating Scholes can lead to a dangerous shot. Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Figo all have the dribbling and flair to beat the most congested defenses and unleash a shot or a pass side-ways to Ronaldo in front of goal.

I have made my thoughts clear about the Seedorf situation so I would leave that for now. I actually thing it is funny. Real Galacticos did not win much due to the fact they blundered by selling Makelele and IMO your team is a bit un balanced for missing a player of similar quality.

Also your second point, does not really specify any tactics do they? It is simply about great players producing a moment of magic to score. There is no point in that. I have enough players who can do that as well. Ronaldinho, Ruud, Nedved, Scholes, Carlos all have produced match winning moments for their team over the course of their careers.

You have not elaborated on key parts as to how Zidane and Rivaldo would actually link up.

Heck, IMO even Figo's influence on the Real team diminished once Zidane joined the team. May be someone like @Pippa can give his take on that but at least I saw it that way back then.

 

[crappycraperson]

Infact leave alone Seedorf, even not playing Vieira in his box to box role is a bit meh IMO. That's what his clear strength was. As per your tactics, you have chose the wrong CMs to start the game with if neither will be going forward. You were better off with a pair like Makelele-Cambiasso.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Like I've said both Vieira and Seedorf has the option to use their forward runs, depending on how good you defend. They will only do so if it is a clear cut chance for a shot or a great goal scoring opportunity. So unless they see that they will remain withdrawn as the offensive quartet doesn't need more players suffocating that area - it would work against me to send more players up.

Ronaldo alone would be likely to get on the goal-sheet with Zidane there, with his playmates Rivaldo and Figo there it doesn't matter which player has the ball - it will be one capable of creating the goal at any given moment. With Cafu overlapping the right side and Marcelo the left(one will always remain defensive) it is an attack you can't outdefend with a low defense.

Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Figo at their peak had brilliant dribbling ability and no defender will be able to keep them all quiet for 90 minutes. Sooner or later Rivaldo/Figo/Ronaldo will beat a man or Zidane/Rivaldo/Figo will find a through-ball or a brilliant pass to one of the other.

Whenever Zidane drops deep to the midfield, which he does fairly often, Rivaldo will step inside, he will be played as a LAM here moving out wide and centrally as he wishes.

Zidane will have the opportunity to move out to the LAM position whenever he wants, which he always did plenty over the course of 90 minutes. Rivaldo will also be making runs forward, ending up as a striker or left forward at times. This offensive trio will be very fluid as both Figo and Rivaldo are equally comfortable centrally, out left or out right

Zidane and the CM's will be more structured remaining in central areas more often than not.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Infact leave alone Seedorf, even not playing Vieira in his box to box role is a bit meh IMO. That's what his clear strength was. As per your tactics, you have chose the wrong CMs to start the game with if neither will be going forward. You were better off with a pair like Makelele-Cambiasso.

Considering how direct my offensive quartet are my attacks will be very direct meaning Seedorf and Vieira's great runs will be well used to go from a low defensive line to offensive positions and then back. They will also continue further up if there is a great chance to do so.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I have made my thoughts clear about the Seedorf situation so I would leave that for now. I actually thing it is funny. Real Galacticos did not win much due to the fact they blundered by selling Makelele and IMO your team is a bit un balanced for missing a player of similar quality.

Also your second point, does not really specify any tactics do they? It is simply about great players producing a moment of magic to score. There is no point in that. I have enough players who can do that as well. Ronaldinho, Ruud, Nedved, Scholes, Carlos all have produced match winning moments for their team over the course of their careers.

You have not elaborated on key parts as to how Zidane and Rivaldo would actually link up.

Heck, IMO even Figo's influence on the Real team diminished once Zidane joined the team. May be someone like @Pippa can give his take on that but at least I saw it that way back then.

This is Figo from Barcelona/Very early RM who had a brilliant link-up with Rivaldo and who tracked back brilliantly. Faster and a better dribbler than his later Real career where he was above 30 which is a lot for a player relying on pace and dribbling.

The same goes with Ronaldo, it is not him in RM it is him from Barcelona/Inter/Brazil 98 where he was a one man army.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Should also be brought up that when Javi Martinez has to drop down to be a CB, he is not near the player he is in the midfield. Javi is benched by Dante and Boateng, players people considered absolute liabilities 2 rounds ago.

Javi Martinez is a solid defensive midfielder, the worst midfielder on the pitch mind, but in a supposed 5 man defense - his inability as a centre back will be exposed. He is up against Ronaldo and Zidane in that area, as good of a combination as he can face and that will be a job above his ability.

Even Scholes post 2006 will have issues against Rivaldo, Zidane and Ronaldo with their extreme pace and dribbling.

 

[crappycraperson]

Like I've said both Vieira and Seedorf has the option to use their forward runs, depending on how good you defend. They will only do so if it is a clear cut chance for a shot or a great goal scoring opportunity. So unless they see that they will remain withdrawn as the offensive quartet doesn't need more players suffocating that area - it would work against me to send more players up.

Ronaldo alone would be likely to get on the goal-sheet with Zidane there, with his playmates Rivaldo and Figo there it doesn't matter which player has the ball - it will be one capable of creating the goal at any given moment. With Cafu overlapping the right side and Marcelo the left(one will always remain defensive) it is an attack you can't outdefend with a low defense.

Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Figo at their peak had brilliant dribbling ability and no defender will be able to keep them all quiet for 90 minutes. Sooner or later Rivaldo/Figo/Ronaldo will beat a man or Zidane/Rivaldo/Figo will find a through-ball or a brilliant pass to one of the other.

Whenever Zidane drops deep to the midfield, which he does fairly often, Rivaldo will step inside, he will be played as a LAM here moving out wide and centrally as he wishes.

Zidane will have the opportunity to move out to the LAM position whenever he wants, which he always did plenty over the course of 90 minutes. Rivaldo will also be making runs forward, ending up as a striker or left forward at times. This offensive trio will be very fluid as both Figo and Rivaldo are equally comfortable centrally, out left or out right

Zidane and the CM's will be more structured remaining in central areas more often than not.

Jesus mate. Normally you are one of the more clued up ones when it comes to tactics in these draft matches, even when I don't agree with you I can see the logic behind it.

Here though your logic behind your CMs is just bizarre. Players like Scholes, Vieira and Seedorf did not just used to ghost into the box once to score that odd goal, but they did it again and again and scored that one time time they were left free. Your logic of Vieira and Seedorf would break forward when they see a 'clear cut chance of goal' is just lacking any sense. They are hardly going to envision such a clear cut chance coming from deep and then make a perfect run for the same only that once. Either you play them in their usual box to box roles or you don't.

The fact that you acknowledge that if I defend well you would have to commit more players forward is exactly what I said in my tactics. One of CMs going forward, one if not both full backs forward is exactly what I want. I am not looking to man mark anyone, it is about closing down the space in a deep defense and I have enough numbers to do so. Rivaldo as a forward would be pretty much run into the perfect defender to take him down in Thuram. Peak Ronaldo is tough to take out but then there is simply no defense to account for him. My central area is pretty much perfect with players like Davids and Martinez in there.

 

[MJJ]

@crappycraperson why not play marquez instead of martinez? Really dont rate martinez that highly as a CB, specially given who he is up against.

 

[crappycraperson]

Should also be brought up that when Javi Martinez has to drop down to be a CB, he is not near the player he is in the midfield. Javi is benched by Dante and Boateng, players people considered absolute liabilities 2 rounds ago.

Javi Martinez is a solid defensive midfielder, the worst midfielder on the pitch mind, but in a supposed 5 man defense - his inability as a centre back will be exposed. He is up against Ronaldo and Zidane in that area, as good of a combination as he can face and that will be a job above his ability.

Even Scholes post 2006 will have issues against Rivaldo, Zidane and Ronaldo with their extreme pace and dribbling.

Martinez as a player may be a weaker than Seedorf and Vieira. But he is playing in his best role while both of your CMs are clearly not.

Javi Martinez is weak line a defense which strives to keep a high line. No such issues here.

He is a perfectly intelligent player to play the role of 'free defender'. If you are attacking from the wings, his presence allows Montero or Thuram to step out if needed. If you attack from the middle and IF Zidane is able to shackle off Davids, he can step out to close down the space further.

 

[crappycraperson]

@crappycraperson why not play marquez instead of martinez? Really dont rate martinez that highly as a CB, specially given who he is up against.

There is a difference between Martinez playing as a CB in a 4 man defense which plays a high line and his role here. Same is true for Marquez IMO except he is more comfortable with a high line defense as well. Read my description of his role above.

Frankly only reason I am playing Martinez here is that he is more likely to get votes than Marquez who is not rated as much on here.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Martinez as a player may be a weaker than Seedorf and Vieira. But he is playing in his best role while both of your CMs are clearly not.

Javi Martinez is weak line a defense which strives to keep a high line. No such issues here.

He is a perfectly intelligent player to play the role of 'free defender'. If you are attacking from the wings, his presence allows Montero or Thuram to step out if needed. If you attack from the middle and IF Zidane is able to shackle off Davids, he can step out to close down the space further.

When did he play in a 5 man defense as you refer it as in his career? You claim that your CB's can step out when my wide men beats them in 1 vs 1, while still being protected centrally as you have a 5 man defense.

This means Javi Martinez is suddenly up against Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Zidane around him if Figo/Cafu beat Carlos. This is the issue, Javi Martinez dropping down to the CB role means he is extremely out of depth.

Like I said he hardly gets game time ahead of Dante/Boateng in the bigger games as a CB. They were said by everybody, including me to be huge weaknesses two rounds ago. Still Martinez is supposed to be capable of defending like a Thuram, like a Ferdinand when he is a CB? He isn't a good CB, he is a good DM:

 

[Annahnomoss]

There is a difference between Martinez playing as a CB in a 4 man defense which plays a high line and his role here. Same is true for Marquez IMO except he is more comfortable with a high line defense as well. Read my description of his role above.

Frankly only reason I am playing Martinez here is that he is more likely to get votes than Marquez who is not rated as much on here.

Just want to quote it. Martinez as a CB isn't rated among the better in the era of this draft, he isn't even one of the 30 best CB's today. He will do more than be a CB all game here, but fact remains that when he drops out he is not a good replacement of Thuram helping out left. The chances of him handling just Ronaldo and Rivaldo in their peak is near none.

 

[MJJ]

There is a difference between Martinez playing as a CB in a 4 man defense which plays a high line and his role here. Same is true for Marquez IMO except he is more comfortable with a high line defense as well. Read my description of his role above.

Frankly only reason I am playing Martinez here is that he is more likely to get votes than Marquez who is not rated as much on here.

Fair enough, my main concern were his speed and immobility which you have addressed easily. You would still have some problems on the counter attacks though, if one of carlos/alves is caught upfield then montero/thuram will move wide leaving martinez as part of a defensive duo facing some of the best attackers the world has seen.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Fair enough, my main concern were his speed and immobility which you have addressed easily. You would still have some problems on the counter attacks though, if one of carlos/alves is caught upfield then montero/thuram will move wide leaving martinez as part of a defensive duo facing some of the best attackers the world has seen.

Indeed, which will be a real issue considering how even Ronaldo has the ability to use the space Carlos/Alves leaves behind on a counter-attack. So it will be a fairly regular occurrence as that is the most obvious space to attack.

 

[crappycraperson]

Fair enough, my main concern were his speed and immobility which you have addressed easily. You would still have some problems on the counter attacks though, if one of carlos/alves is caught upfield then montero/thuram will move wide leaving martinez as part of a defensive duo facing some of the best attackers the world has seen.

That won't be a regular occurrence though would it? It is also being made out as if I am playing Carrick in defense!

 

[crappycraperson]

Just want to quote it. Martinez as a CB isn't rated among the better in the era of this draft, he isn't even one of the 30 best CB's today. He will do more than be a CB all game here, but fact remains that when he drops out he is not a good replacement of Thuram helping out left. The chances of him handling just Ronaldo and Rivaldo in their peak is near none.

He is not playing as a pure CB here at all. It is a DM/CB role, something he is perfectly suited for. The talk of him being behind the Dante and Boateng is ridiculous given that is in a totally different context.

Go and ahead and name 30 CBs you will have ahead of Martinez even in a 4 man defense. I would like to see that list. It is almost as if Martinez never played as a CB in his life, when he actually excelled in that role for Bilbao for quite sometime.

 

[MJJ]

That won't be a regular occurrence though would it? It is also being made out as if I am playing Carrick in defense!

I expect it to happen a significant number of times allowing it to make a difference in the match. Both your central midfielders are going to be staying back so one of carlos/alves will be contributing to the attack at all time i.e. the space is there to be exploited which the opposition's attackers can certainly do.

You arent playing carrick in defense but relatively speaking it is the same given the quality of the attackers and other defenders.

Similarly, I can see ronaldinho getting a lot of joy in that ferdinand-marcelo-vieira window whenever marcelo is caught upfield.

 

[Balu]

Martinez as a player may be a weaker than Seedorf and Vieira. But he is playing in his best role while both of your CMs are clearly not.

From your tactics:

Martinez will play as the 'free' defender in back 5. He will be sitting slightly in front of Montero and Thuram to close down any space for Zidane to pass into or move into. He would not be man marking Zidane since that is no his strength but sitting in front of defense to close down any passage of ball from the middle.

I find that a bit strange. Wouldn't you say, he did an outstanding man-marking job against Iniesta last season in the 4-0 home win? It's not all he can do of course, he still moved away from him at times to break up play in his zone, but overall it was pretty close to a true man-marking job and he excelled in it.

It's actually funny, you have Martinez play the exact role I wanted Sammer to play in my sheep draft game against Zidane, which you didn't like. But Sammer was way better suited to play that free 3rd centerback/DM hybrid role, while Martinez is better suited to a man-marking job in midfield.

/edit:
That doesn't mean that I don't like how you approach the game, nothing wrong with it.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I expect it to happen a significant number of times allowing it to make a difference in the match. Both your central midfielders are going to be staying back so one of carlos/alves will be contributing to the attack at all time i.e. the space is there to be exploited which the opposition's attackers can certainly do.

You arent playing carrick in defense but relatively speaking it is the same given the quality of the attackers and other defenders.

Similarly, I can see ronaldinho getting a lot of joy in that ferdinand-marcelo-vieira window whenever marcelo is caught upfield.

Actually Ronaldinho is on the other side against Cafu-Seedorf-Lucio. He never played as a RW so he won't be drifting that far out to use Marcelo being further forward.

So against the left side he will be up against the explosive and fast Seedorf who will just make sure Ronaldinho doesn't receive the ball facing my goal, rather he is forced to take a step down to receive it.

 

[Annahnomoss]

From your tactics:

I find that a bit strange. Wouldn't you say, he did an outstanding man-marking job against Iniesta last season in the 4-0 home win? It's not all he can do of course, he still moved away from him at times to break up play in his zone, but overall it was pretty close to a true man-marking job and he excelled in it.

It's actually funny, you have Martinez play the exact role I wanted Sammer to play in my sheep draft game against Zidane, which you didn't like. But Sammer was way better suited to play that free 3rd centerback/DM hybrid role, while Martinez is better suited to a man-marking job in midfield.

Great post, has Martinez ever played in a 5 man defense?

 

[MJJ]

Actually Ronaldinho is on the other side against Cafu-Seedorf-Lucio. He never played as a RW so he won't be drifting that far out to use Marcelo being further forward.

So against the left side he will be up against the explosive and fast Seedorf who will just make sure Ronaldinho doesn't receive the ball facing my goal, rather he is forced to take a step down to receive it.

I thought they would be swapping around? In that case, yeah you are well suited to minimize his threat if he stays on the left.

 

[Annahnomoss]

He is not playing as a pure CB here at all. It is a DM/CB role, something he is perfectly suited for. The talk of him being behind the Dante and Boateng is ridiculous given that is in a totally different context.

Indeed, the "Sammer role". Having the intelligence and ability to know when to step up to the midfield and when to drop deep is something only a rare few players has had through-out history. It is an extremely difficult job which is brilliant when pulled of and horrible when failed as then you end up with a weak CB who probably won't get the timing right either.

Being able to play as a DM to a great level isn't enough for that role, Martinez ability as a CB will be very important here and has to be top quality and they aren't. More than that, actually being comfortable stepping in and out of midfield/defense is incredibly hard and something Martinez has never done in a 5 man defense role like this.

 

[RoadTrip]

Annah, what the fecking feck. That team is beyond awesome.

Sorry crappy, but that team contains some of my best players. I can't vote against it. that and it's a bloody briliant team. Doesn't take anything away from your's though, I love it too.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I thought they would be swapping around? In that case, yeah you are well suited to minimize his threat if he stays on the left.

Nedved can freely swap around to both sides, but Ronaldinho has never played as a RW and from the right side he plays extremely narrow so he will be running straight in to the central defense more often than not rather than challenging Marcelo in a 1 vs 1 by the corner flag.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Annah, what the fecking feck. That team is beyond awesome.

Sorry crappy, but that team contains some of my best players. I can't vote against it. that and it's a bloody briliant team. Doesn't take anything away from your's though, I love it too.

It is team Theon/Polaroid I am just managing it!

 

[crappycraperson]

I expect it to happen a significant number of times allowing it to make a difference in the match. Both your central midfielders are going to be staying back so one of carlos/alves will be contributing to the attack at all time i.e. the space is there to be exploited which the opposition's attackers can certainly do.

You arent playing carrick in defense but relatively speaking it is the same given the quality of the attackers and other defenders.

Similarly, I can see ronaldinho getting a lot of joy in that ferdinand-marcelo-vieira window whenever marcelo is caught upfield.

Ok. Since it would happen on counter situations only you are looking at this let's suppose (if we assume Alves goes for a forward run)


--------------------------------- Alves----
-----------Davids-----Scholes-------------
Carlos-------------------------------------
--------Montero------Martinez------Thuram

In a counter situation, these will be up against Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Figo running at them with Zidane perhaps playing the playmaker from deep. Right? I don't see any issues there since my defense will be deep. Thuram will take care of Rivaldo, and most importantly Davids in a counter situation would invaluable to cut down any attack.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Martinez is not far from a pure CB if he stays back as a CB even in your organized attacks.

 

[MJJ]

Ok. Since it would happen on counter situations only you are looking at this let's suppose (if we assume Alves goes for a forward run)


--------------------------------- Alves----
-----------Davids-----Scholes-------------
Carlos-------------------------------------
--------Montero------Martinez------Thuram

In a counter situation, these will be up against Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Figo running at them with Zidane perhaps playing the playmaker from deep. Right? I don't see any issues there since my defense will be deep. Thuram will take care of Rivaldo, and most importantly Davids in a counter situation would invaluable to cut down any attack.

You dont see any issue with figo against carlos and ronaldo/maybe zidane against montero/martinez? Each of them can easily beat their opposite defensive number and cause difficulties for you although have davids there to help and even scholes deep will greatly help you to stop the counter attack and launch yours as you have mentioned.

 

[crappycraperson]

From your tactics:

I find that a bit strange. Wouldn't you say, he did an outstanding man-marking job against Iniesta last season in the 4-0 home win? It's not all he can do of course, he still moved away from him at times to break up play in his zone, but overall it was pretty close to a true man-marking job and he excelled in it.

It's actually funny, you have Martinez play the exact role I wanted Sammer to play in my sheep draft game against Zidane, which you didn't like. But Sammer was way better suited to play that free 3rd centerback/DM hybrid role, while Martinez is better suited to a man-marking job in midfield.

/edit:
That doesn't mean that I don't like how you approach the game, nothing wrong with it.

Good point. Difference is that in your case, you could sacrifice Sammer to take out Zidane. Here I can not afford to sacrifice Martinez since I need him in there to account for my attacking full backs and his wingers+forward is much better than what Pol had to offer in that game.

I actually said while voting against you that I am voting that way since putting Sammer on Zidane would ensure your win and here it gives Pol a chance. Since he was behind at that time (by 4 votes IIRC), I gave him a vote to reflect the closeness of the game.

 

[Balu]

Great post, has Martinez ever played in a 5 man defense?

Temporarily yes. I wouldn't necessarily call his role a centerback here in this game, I think Crappy wants to keep his 3 man defense formation and try to describe his role, which would be mostly a DM role against a team playing with only one striker here. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, if you have versatile players that are able to adjust to the opponent. Doesn't really matter how you call him, in my opinion (that's what I tried to explain when I played Sammer in that role).

Crappy makes a few good points about his strengths and how he wants to use them for his team. He's excellent when he's allowed to move around freely and pick his spots to break up play. His ability on the ball is also underrated. He's incredibly quick at releasing the ball after winning it back, needs way less time than for example Schweinsteiger. Of course, he won't play hollywood passes often, if at all. But you don't need that in his position, read the game, win the ball and play the simple pass to start a counterattack? He's perfect for that. Staying in defense to give the wingbacks more freedom in attack while keeping an eye on Zidane? Yeah he can do that, no doubt. I don't really like him as a centerback in a high line, I agree with Crappy on that. But what player in the game today would you prefer over Martinez to play the role, Crappy wants him to play? I couldn't think of anyone?

 

[Balu]

Good point. Difference is that in your case, you could sacrifice Sammer to take out Zidane. Here I can not afford to sacrifice Martinez since I need him in there to account for my attacking full backs and his wingers+forward is much better than what Pol had to offer in that game.

I actually said while voting against you that I am voting that way since putting Sammer on Zidane would ensure your win and here it gives Pol a chance. Since he was behind at that time (by 4 votes IIRC), I gave him a vote to reflect the closeness of the game.

How many games have I lost because of votes like that or had to go to penalties, ffs .