Transgender rights discussion

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

the stupidest part is that if you force trans men to use women's spaces, then you essentially allow all men access. which is ironically the exact fear based nonsense terfs go on about.

Might have written this here before… Not a hypothetical as I’ve seen weird men make weird calls. Almost always.

But imagine that you (as I do) have a daughter. What toilet do you take them to?

I took my daughter to the women’s toilets. 100% of the time. Every single woman in every single toilet was receptive to that as process.

The kind of men that get their pants in a knot about a transgender woman using women’s toilets… are EXACTLY the same people that take their young daughters to men’s toilets when they need to go.

So… the exact same people that are losing their minds about the infinitely small number of transgender women using women’s toilets… ROUTINELY take their daughters into men’s toilets. With urinals and cocks out and the absolute stench and shit on the seats and coke everywhere. Those are the people that have a problem with people they will never meet, taking a shit in a cubicle in a space that they can feel safe. Why? It’s so stunted.

Anyone arguing about toilets is beyond saving. It’s wees and poops. That’s it. Grow up everyone.

 

[Zlaatan]

Brainwashed people like you, who thinks it's fine to champion something that's utterly wrong. The human race would cease to exist. Would you marry a transgender?

That might be the most stupid thing I have ever read.

 

[cafecillos]

That might be the most stupid thing I have ever read.

Yes.

And he thought posting that fecking shite was worth risking an eleven year old account. Oh well.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Yes.

And he thought posting that fecking shite was worth risking an eleven year old account. Oh well.

He was fighting for the survival of the human race, apparently. Can't use the Caf when you're dead!

 

[Gehrman]

That might be the most stupid thing I have ever read.

Even if all of the worlds population was transgender we could still make babies.

 

[stw2022]

The issue isn't really that anyone seriously thinks there are a disproportionately high number of trans people who are sexual predators. It's the notion that it puts more women and girls at risk if the sight of a male-born person stops becoming in women's spaces stops being something that sets alarm bells off and starts being something people just ignore as it just being that persons right to identify as a woman .

 

[calodo2003]

Even if all of the worlds population was transgender we could still make babies.

I wish they were still around, I'd love to see what their response to this would be.

 

[Gehrman]

The issue isn't really that anyone seriously thinks there are a disproportionately high number of trans people who are sexual predators. It's the notion that it puts more women and girls at risk if the sight of a male-born person stops becoming in women's spaces stops being something that sets alarm bells off and starts being something people just ignore as it just being that persons right to identify as a woman .

I think part of the issue is that in the 21st century, its now entirely subjective what a woman or a man is, or its become a discussion. Im old school, I go by the defintion that a woman is someone who is born a girl and now grown up into a woman and vice versa with boys and men. Gender in Danish is literally translated to Køn(which means biological sex). And I do know that lots of posters could show me pictures of transgender babe women and ask me and tell me thats not a women, but im sorry, for me there is a limit. A poster in this thread made a post saying that believing that transwomen arent real women is the same as believing that black people werent real humans and if you ask me that is such a disingenuous case of trying coherce people into believing an ideology. On the other hand it doesnt mean that we as a society shouldnt try to make life as easy as possible for a tiny minority of people, it just comes with a series of obstacles that in some cases are difficult to get around, such as same sex spaces in certain contexts, in medical language, in professional sports, prisons etc.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

He was fighting for the survival of the human race, apparently. Can't use the Caf when you're dead!

He was fighting for free speech, dammit! In the same way that sticking your finger into a bowl of ice cream is fighting for the right to sing showtunes on Broadway completely in the nip. That doesn't work either, believe me. fecking police arrest you all the same.

 

[stw2022]

A person who has transitioned in my view is different to someone who has simply declared their wish to identify as the opposite gender.

It's no coincidence that pushback really didn't come to the fore until this idea of self-identifcation became a thing, moreover when entitlement to women's spaces became demanding based on self-identification alone .

 

[Jippy]

The DM and Kid Rock are strange bedfellows.

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[jeff_goldblum]

A person who has transitioned in my view is different to someone who has simply declared their wish to identify as the opposite gender.

It's no coincidence that pushback really didn't come to the fore until this idea of self-identifcation became a thing, moreover when entitlement to women's spaces became demanding based on self-identification alone .

This isn't accurate though. Self-ID used to be a uncontroversial acceptable position across the political spectrum. It has been in place in the Republic of Ireland for 7 years and was Conservative Party policy until about 5 years ago when they had their internal far-right coup. The reason the pushback has emerged now is because culture wars are 'in' and the bigots have managed to found a couple of spokespeople who have media connections and are capable of stringing sentences together without using slurs (generally older liberals who consider themselves "right-on" but haven't updated their world view since the 90s and generally hate every progressive movement that's happened since).

 

[stw2022]

There are safe spaces for trans people. That's because trans people face discrimination and physical abuse. The idea someone who is cis could gain access to those spaces designed exclusively for trans people, simply by them declaring that they 'identify' as trans would be something that would understandably raise concerns

If we accept that why are women who want to keep men out of their spaces told self-declaration of gender identity is sufficient?

 

[stw2022]

This isn't accurate though. Self-ID used to be a uncontroversial acceptable position across the political spectrum. It has been in place in the Republic of Ireland for 7 years and was Conservative Party policy until about 5 years ago when they had their internal far-right coup. The reason the pushback has emerged now is because culture wars are 'in' and the bigots have managed to found a couple of spokespeople who have media connections and are capable of stringing sentences together without using slurs (generally older liberals who consider themselves "right-on" but haven't updated their world view since the 90s and generally hate every progressive movement that's happened since).

Absolutely not. I feel, therefore I am, is an incredibly modern entitlement.

I know trans people and how they struggled with changing identity. The trauma, physical and emotional. The abuse. The isolation. Everything. And I have tremendous respect for them and wish them every right in the world. They are NOT the same as self-identifiyers who make up a sexuality (im rhombosexual, which means im physically attracted to men whose cock resemblesa rhombus), die their hair purple and decide a week by week basis if they're cis or trans and insist their pronouns resemble Sooty casting a magic spell (zim/zam/zee)

It actually pisses me off that, albeit well-meaning, progressives have decided the feck wits and their demands represent ordinary trans folk. The damage these entitled children are doing to the trans movement is disgusting and dangerous. Defenders of this shit would do well to actually get to know some real life trans people, not those cosplaying "trans queer" on Twitter because they've found an Instagram filter that makes them look feminine and really like knee-length white socks.

Because the lives of actual every day trans people is infinitely more shit because of them. What did they do to deserve being associated with people who declare themselves wolves and sexual attractions to cooking utensils?

 

[Halftrack]

Absolutely not. I feel, therefore I am, is an incredibly modern entitlement.

I know trans people and how they struggled with changing identity. The trauma, physical and emotional. The abuse. The isolation. Everything. And I have tremendous respect for them and wish them every right in the world. They are NOT the same as self-identifiyers who make up a sexuality (im rhombosexual, which means im physically attracted to men whose cock resemblesa rhombus), die their hair purple and decide a week by week basis if they're cis or trans and insist their pronouns resemble Sooty casting a magic spell (zim/zam/zee)

It actually pisses me off that, albeit well-meaning, progressives have decided the feck wits and their demands represent ordinary trans folk. The damage these entitled children are doing to the trans movement is disgusting and dangerous. Defenders of this shit would do well to actually get to know some real life trans people, not those cosplaying "trans queer" on Twitter because they've found an Instagram filter that makes them look feminine and really like knee-length white socks.

Because the lives of actual every day trans people is infinitely more shit because of them. What did they do to deserve being associated with people who declare themselves wolves and sexual attractions to cooking utensils?

And that's where you lost any and all credibility. Nice try, though.

 

[Lay]

I thought Kid Rock was dead.

 

[Semper Fudge]

I thought Kid Rock was dead.

DEAD serious about being a TERF!

 

[HTG]

DEAD serious about being a TERF!

Devil without a Cause is the worst album I have ever listened to. It is comically bad.

 

[The Corinthian]

The DM and Kid Rock are strange bedfellows.

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I mean, it is pretty stupid that Nike, a well known sports brand, would pass on the many many female athletes (who probably use their sports bras) as an ambassador for a trans women who has no relevance in sport. The England women’s team who have won the Euros last year and the Finalissima last week could probably put forward 24 female athletes who would be better ambassadors than a trans actress/comedienne/YouTuber. On top of that, Dylan would have had breast surgery as well. If you’re promoting a sports bra, surely you’d want to showcase it for the many boob types/sizes that biological women have as opposed to someone who has had artificial surgery.

I’m sure there’s something ironic that the brand is named after the Goddess of victory / sport etc and it’s gone to a non-sports person as well.

 

[Semper Fudge]

I mean, it is pretty stupid that Nike, a well known sports brand, would pass on the many many female athletes (who probably use their sports bras) as an ambassador for a trans women who has no relevance in sport. The England women’s team who have won the Euros last year and the Finalissima last week could probably put forward 24 female athletes who would be better ambassadors than a trans actress/comedienne/YouTuber. On top of that, Dylan would have had breast surgery as well. If you’re promoting a sports bra, surely you’d want to showcase it for the many boob types/sizes that biological women have as opposed to someone who has had artificial surgery.

I’m sure there’s something ironic that the brand is named after the Goddess of victory / sport etc and it’s gone to a non-sports person as well.

Yeesh.

 

[The Corinthian]

Yeesh.

Whenever I see a reply such as this, I’m always reminded of this K&P sketch:


Why don’t you try offering an opinion rather than positing ‘gotcha’ phrases?

 

[Semper Fudge]

Whenever I see a reply such as this, I’m always reminded of this K&P sketch:


Why don’t you try offering an opinion rather than positing ‘gotcha’ phrases?

You’re essentially saying “yeah, but what about these ACTUAL women?”.

There’s my opinion on you.

 

[The Corinthian]

You’re essentially saying “yeah, but what about these ACTUAL women?”.

There’s my opinion on you.

No, I’m saying shouldn’t a well known sports brand use sports women as brand ambassadors, as opposed to a trans actress/social media star etc.

Also, inaccurately summarising my point isn’t actually offering an opinion either. So what is your opinion?

 

[hobbers]

You’re essentially saying “yeah, but what about these ACTUAL sportswomen?”.

Fixed

 

[Ekkie Thump]

No, I’m saying shouldn’t a well known sports brand use sports women as brand ambassadors, as opposed to a trans actress/social media star etc.

Seems like you might be presenting a false dichotomy. I think they do use sports women as brand ambassadors. There isn't just the one position as far as I know. Serena Williams is a brand ambassador for instance. This lass is another one: https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/418553359116857943/

I dunno, but at an uneducated guess I think there are probably over a hundred brand ambassadors, all catering for various markets around the world. Doesn't seem much of a big deal to me if out of a large number of female brand ambassadors Nike employs one that's a trans tiktok personality. She probably has a massive number of followers and will probably help to sell some Nike stuff. Same as any other brand ambassador, Nike's paying her for enhanced access to her market.

 

[The Corinthian]

Seems like you might be presenting a false dichotomy. I think they do use sports women as brand ambassadors. There isn't just the one position as far as I know. Serena Williams is a brand ambassador for instance. This lass is another one: https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/418553359116857943/

I dunno, but at an uneducated guess I think there are probably over a hundred brand ambassadors, all catering for various markets around the world. Doesn't seem much of a big deal to me if out of a large number of female brand ambassadors Nike employs one that's a trans tiktok personality. She probably has a massive number of followers and will probably help to sell some Nike stuff. Same as any other brand ambassador, Nike's paying her for enhanced access to her market.

I think in a time where female only sports is a hot talking point, with various sporting bodies still working on whether trans women should be able to compete along side biological women, the decision to appoint a non-sporting trans woman as a brand ambassador is pretty stupid. It just adds to the idea that a female only domains are being passed over for more deserving women and going to trans women.

I also wonder why the problem seems to be ‘this way round’. Why aren’t trans men sports ambassadors for men’s sporting items? Why aren’t trans men fronting men’s beauty campaigns? It feels like biological women are getting the short straw everytime.

 

[jojojo]

I think in a time where female only sports is a hot talking point, with various sporting bodies still working on whether trans women should be able to compete along side biological women, the decision to appoint a non-sporting trans woman as a brand ambassador is pretty stupid. It just adds to the idea that a female only domains are being passed over for more deserving women and going to trans women.

I also wonder why the problem seems to be ‘this way round’. Why aren’t trans men sports ambassadors for men’s sporting items? Why aren’t trans men fronting men’s beauty campaigns? It feels like biological women are getting the short straw everytime.

I'm inclined to see commercial impact as the decisive thing here. A trans-women as a brand ambassador for sportswear is unlikely to hit sales to women, trans or otherwise, and could offer them gains in a niche market that they want to open. Sadly, their assessment may well be that a trans-man as a headline advertiser of a male targeted product could impact their sales to other men.

Companies are only just getting brave enough to use gay men in ads targeted primarily at a male audience. Openly lesbian sportswomen have been visible for a while and brands are more confident about using them. There's a commercial logic to believing that women are likely to be more accepting and certainly less inclined to reject a product for this kind of reason.

 

[The Corinthian]

I'm inclined to see commercial impact as the decisive thing here. A trans-women as a brand ambassador for sportswear is unlikely to hit sales to women, trans or otherwise, and could offer them gains in a niche market that they want to open. Sadly, their assessment may well be that a trans-man as a headline advertiser of a male targeted product could impact their sales to other men.

Companies are only just getting brave enough to use gay men in ads targeted primarily at a male audience. Openly lesbian sportswomen have been visible for a while and brands are more confident about using them. There's a commercial logic to believing that women are likely to be more accepting and certainly less inclined to reject a product for this kind of reason.

Oh yes, there’s no doubt in my mind the prevailing factor is the monetary bottom line and a cash grab for these companies. It’s all performative.

I’d be interested to hear your views though on Nike using Dylan however. You’re a prominent and knowledgeable poster on the MUFC and England women’s team. The earlier point I made is that there are at least 20+ Lionesses who would be a better fit for the sports bra ambassador. It would seem a more logical fit than a trans social media star. I mean, speaking from a perceptive POV it’s a poor decision (in my opinion).

 

[berbatrick]

It feels like biological women are getting the short straw everytime.

My roommate was a trans woman who had a rant about employers who had multiple trans men and zero trans women employees. I looked her up after seeing your post- she's written something on the employment situation in church denominations* which accept LGBT people, and found that this is a broader trend.

"only two of the four officially trans inclusive strictly Christian denominations have one single out trans woman in a paid full-time position at any level.[...] Each of the fives denominations have trans people who were assigned female at birth, trans masculine people and assigned female at birth non-binary people, who have successful church careers and are lifted up as leaders and examples within their traditions."

*she focused on this because was studying in the divinity school, had been an army chaplain previously

 

[jojojo]

Oh yes, there’s no doubt in my mind the prevailing factor is the monetary bottom line and a cash grab for these companies. It’s all performative.

I’d be interested to hear your views though on Nike using Dylan however. You’re a prominent and knowledgeable poster on the MUFC and England women’s team. The earlier point I made is that there are at least 20+ Lionesses who would be a better fit for the sports bra ambassador. It would seem a more logical fit than a trans social media star. I mean, speaking from a perceptive POV it’s a poor decision (in my opinion).

Nike are the England kit supplier and most of the women's squad players already had sponsorship deals (Nike or otherwise) in place before the Euros. The "names" have all been offered new deals to extend contracts etc by their sponsors or are running down their old contracts in favour of new offers now.

Ella Toone is a Nike sponsored player, they use her Instagram account for photoshoots and she's got her own range of recommended sportswear with them. They've used several of the England players in campaigns this week. Russo has just done an Adidas-Gucci range photoshoot.

I'm not sure if Nike are interested in anything more subtle than Instagram view count and click throughs. That said, yeah, I'm so old that the whole concept of influencers and Instagram "famous for being famous" celebrity is completely lost on me - but that's not just when it comes to sportswear

 

[The Corinthian]

Nike are the England kit supplier and most of the women's squad players already had sponsorship deals (Nike or otherwise) in place before the Euros. The "names" have all been offered new deals to extend contracts etc by their sponsors or are running down their old contracts in favour of new offers now.

Ella Toone is a Nike sponsored player, they use her Instagram account for photoshoots and she's got her own range of recommended sportswear with them. They've used several of the England players in campaigns this week. Russo has just done an Adidas-Gucci range photoshoot.

I'm not sure if Nike are interested in anything more subtle than Instagram view count and click throughs. That said, yeah, I'm so old that the whole concept of influencers and Instagram "famous for being famous" celebrity is completely lost on me - but that's not just when it comes to sportswear

Fair enough, I guess the point I’m getting at (and not making very well) is there is a plethora of female sports stars who would be better suited to promote the sports bra. I just referenced the Lionesses as they had a great result in the week.

 

[Jippy]

Seems like you might be presenting a false dichotomy. I think they do use sports women as brand ambassadors. There isn't just the one position as far as I know. Serena Williams is a brand ambassador for instance. This lass is another one: https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/418553359116857943/

I dunno, but at an uneducated guess I think there are probably over a hundred brand ambassadors, all catering for various markets around the world. Doesn't seem much of a big deal to me if out of a large number of female brand ambassadors Nike employs one that's a trans tiktok personality. She probably has a massive number of followers and will probably help to sell some Nike stuff. Same as any other brand ambassador, Nike's paying her for enhanced access to her market.

Yeah feels like people are talking as if Dylan is going to be the sole person used by Nike in advertising when in reality there a multiple across numerous sports.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

I think in a time where female only sports is a hot talking point, with various sporting bodies still working on whether trans women should be able to compete along side biological women, the decision to appoint a non-sporting trans woman as a brand ambassador is pretty stupid. It just adds to the idea that a female only domains are being passed over for more deserving women and going to trans women.

I also wonder why the problem seems to be ‘this way round’. Why aren’t trans men sports ambassadors for men’s sporting items? Why aren’t trans men fronting men’s beauty campaigns? It feels like biological women are getting the straw everytime.

The bolded statement implies that female domains do not (or should not) contain within their cohort the domain of the trans-woman. Another view would be that it should and does and that the domain most passed over in the female sporting world is unarguably and precisely that of the trans woman. This is irrespective of whether they should be able to compete as equals, it's still controversial even to recognise that trans women do sports.

You still seem quite keen to approach this as some sort of zero-sum game where the inclusion of one trans-woman necessarily implies the exclusion of a biological one. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point but I just don't see how this corresponds to the reality. If I have 200 female partners and add a trans female to my roster I now have 201 female partners. People might have the perception that "female only domains are being passed over" but in reality they're being added to. Perhaps rather than "passed over" or replaced you mean that the presence of a trans woman in and of itself necessarily dilutes all other female domains.

You mention the Lionesses as an example of "more deserving" women being "passed over" in favour of "trans women" but I'd be willing to bet that literally every single Lioness has a sponsorship deal in place and plenty of offers on the table - including a few with Nike. Like, just take a look at the Nike sponsorship page here. That gigantic list has now increased by one person. At any rate from my point of view the domain of the trans woman is just as worthy as any other of being pandered to by a corporate entity hell bent on selling it sports bras. If it's worthy of being marketed to (it'll turn a profit) it's worthy of being represented (pandered to).

I agree with your final set of questions and I understand the conclusion you infer but I also appreciate that approached slightly differently and added to those questions could just as easily reveal the persecution of a different group.

Consider: I also wonder why the problem seems to be 'this way round'. Why aren’t trans men sports ambassadors for men’s sporting items? Why aren’t trans men fronting men’s beauty campaigns? Why can't Nike market to trans women without uproar? Why are trans-women to be neither seen or heard until someone else has determined their exact fate? It feels like trans people get the short straw every time.

 

[HTG]

Fair enough, I guess the point I’m getting at (and not making very well) is there is a plethora of female sports stars who would be better suited to promote the sports bra. I just referenced the Lionesses as they had a great result in the week.

That would only apply if Nike exclusively partner up with sportspeople, which they don’t. Drake, Billie Eilish and Eminem for example also work with them.

 

[The Corinthian]

That would only apply if Nike exclusively partner up with sportspeople, which they don’t. Drake, Billie Eilish and Eminem for example also work with them.

For street wear and their fashion lines yes. Not really for anything sports orientated.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

For street wear and their fashion lines yes. Not really for anything sports orientated.

I think it might have been even more controversial if Nike had used a trans woman affiliated with a specific sport instead of the more general representative they ended up choosing.

 

[The Corinthian]

I think it might have been even more controversial if Nike had used a trans woman affiliated with a specific sport instead of the more general representative they ended up choosing.

Yes - that’s a valid point and entirely possible. Fundamentally it’s all just a cash grab. (Will reply to your other post when I’m on a laptop).

 

[stw2022]

Why would it be offensive for a white artist to identify as black?

If that's the threshold. Not a disgnosed medical condition, just self-ID, how someone chooses to identify as, why would anyone have an issue with that?

Again, it's important that we distinguish between actual trans people and those who have grown out of (or maybe not) the student politics movement who have as much interest in changing gender as Uri Geller has in wooden spoons , but have hijacked trans rights with their "how dare you not accept I'm a fish" nonsense

 

[Wibble]

Why would it be offensive for a white artist to identify as black?

If that's the threshold. Not a disgnosed medical condition, just self-ID, how someone chooses to identify as, why would anyone have an issue with that?

Again, it's important that we distinguish between actual trans people and those who have grown out of (or maybe not) the student politics movement who have as much interest in changing gender as Uri Geller has in wooden spoons , but have hijacked trans rights with their "how dare you not accept I'm a fish" nonsense

Don't be disingenuous. And silliness like your last sentence, an obvious attempt to belittle trans people, won't be tolerated no matter how you try to frame your "argument". Not to mention the silliness of your first sentence. Just knock it off.

 

[stw2022]

There's nothing TERFY or transphobic to say people who have actually transitioned are not the same as people who self-declare a new (often completely imaginary) genders to win an argument on social media.

Same as I happily distinguish between those who are gay and those who announce they're dashflynsexual-fluid-queer simply because they want to post an argumentative Tweet.

In both cases, one is an actual minority who face barriers and discrimination. The other isn't.

Pretending that making such a distinction is problematic, is the problem