Trevor Phillips Suspended From Labour Over Islamaphobic Allegations.

[Inigo Montoya]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51797316

I remember the documentary he did a few years ago about this. Nothing he said back then hasn't been backed up by recent investigations, including the apathy shown by Labour councillors.

Ironic they have done anything as high profile to suspend the anti- Semites in their party.

 

[Adisa]

Who is making these decisions?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Who is making these decisions?

Jennie Formby, Labour's general secretary.

The party is becoming unelectable

 

[Fiskey]

Joke of a decision, but not surprising.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Labour are going about it in an interesting way to win back Brexit voters.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Labour are going about it in an interesting way to win back Brexit voters.

They lost them years ago

 

[buchansleftleg]

This is just ridiculous tactics to try and negate the expected damning report from EHRC investigation into anti-semitism in the Labour party. The foul stench that emanates from the NEC and Formby / McKlusky s going to take years to sweep away no matter who gets the leadership.

Sadly Kier Starmer is just going to be another Kinnock who spends all his time cleaning out the rot in the party rather than being able to take on the tories and win. Labour will get annihilated at the local elections but the crazy gang will no doubt claim a 1% uplift as either a damning indictment of Starmer or the start of a new socialist dawn if Long bailey gets in. (shudders)

 

[horsechoker]

This is just ridiculous tactics to try and negate the expected damning report from EHRC investigation into anti-semitism in the Labour party. The foul stench that emanates from the NEC and Formby / McKlusky s going to take years to sweep away no matter who gets the leadership.

Sadly Kier Starmer is just going to be another Kinnock who spends all his time cleaning out the rot in the party rather than being able to take on the tories and win. Labour will get annihilated at the local elections but the crazy gang will no doubt claim a 1% uplift as either a damning indictment of Starmer or the start of a new socialist dawn if Long bailey gets in. (shudders)

Labour are going about it in an interesting way to win back Brexit voters.

We're on our way to becoming a one party state.

 

[Sweet Square]

Mr Phillips was among 24 public figures who wrote to the Guardian last year declaring their refusal to vote for Labour because of its association with anti-Semitism.



Mr Phillips went on to describe the decision by Labour to adopt the definition of Islamophobia agreed by an all-party parliamentary group on British Muslims as "nonsense", as Muslims were "not a race".

also

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[Zlatattack]

This thread is amazing.

If anyone from any other ethnic or religious background feels discriminated against, automatically (and rightfully in my opinion), the alleged victim is taken at face value. If a Muslim feels discriminated against - we have to prove it by all sorts or ridiculous metrics.

The definition of semite has been adjusted to ensure that European jews who have no racial, lingual or genetic semetic links can consider themselves semitic, yet if a Muslim feels a victim of discrimination based on their religion - they're told it's not racist, because Muslims aren't a race. Jews can be a race apparently, but Muslims can't.

Can you imagine British society signing up to a definition of anti Islamaphobia such as this one?

http://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Trevor Phillips hates Islam, and is predujiced against Muslims because of his hatred of our religion. It's like saying I hate Liverpool FC, I hate the geographical location, i hate the clubs supporters - but i've got no predujice against them.

 

[Sweet Square]

This thread is amazing.

If anyone from any other ethnic or religious background feels discriminated against, automatically (and rightfully in my opinion), the alleged victim is taken at face value. If a Muslim feels discriminated against - we have to prove it by all sorts or ridiculous metrics.

The definition of semite has been adjusted to ensure that European jews who have no racial, lingual or genetic semetic links can consider themselves semitic, yet if a Muslim feels a victim of discrimination based on their religion - they're told it's not racist, because Muslims aren't a race. Jews can be a race apparently, but Muslims can't.

Can you imagine British society signing up to a definition of anti Islamaphobia such as this one?

http://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Trevor Phillips hates Islam, and is predujiced against Muslims because of his hatred of our religion. It's like saying I hate Liverpool FC, I hate the geographical location, i hate the clubs supporters - but i've got no predujice against them.

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[Zlatattack]

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Exactly. Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with people adopting the working definition of anti semitism, even though i fear it might be used to curb debate on Israels crimes against the Palestinian people.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Just came across this, what's the deal here? I can't find the specific comments he's made in the articles I read & didn't catch this documentary he apparently made a few years ago. Would be a shame, I've always admired what he did with the EHRC. The timing is also pretty suss if these are historic cases, it could be a way of undermining the EHRC ahead of this report. But as has also been seen with some on the far left, the belief that you're an anti-racist can make you strangely unaware of your own prejudices.

 

[Zlatattack]

Just came across this, what's the deal here? I can't find the specific comments he's made in the articles I read & didn't catch this documentary he apparently made a few years ago. Would be a shame, I've always admired what he did with the EHRC. The timing is also pretty suss if these are historic cases, it could be a way of undermining the EHRC ahead of this report. But as has also been seen with some on the far left, the belief that you're an anti-racist can make you strangely unaware of your own prejudices.

Have a look at the tweets on this account - he breaks it down well.

https://twitter.com/miqdaad?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[Dumbstar]

Exactly. Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with people adopting the working definition of anti semitism, even though i fear it might be used to curb debate on Israels crimes against the Palestinian people.

Seriously, I'd like to know why criticism of Israel and all its policies is considered anti Semitic? Criticism of the brutal Saudi regime, looking after our holiest cities, is not considered Islamaphobic and it shouldn't be because that government is getting away with all sorts of atrocities.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Just came across this, what's the deal here? I can't find the specific comments he's made in the articles I read & didn't catch this documentary he apparently made a few years ago. Would be a shame, I've always admired what he did with the EHRC. The timing is also pretty suss if these are historic cases, it could be a way of undermining the EHRC ahead of this report. But as has also been seen with some on the far left, the belief that you're an anti-racist can make you strangely unaware of your own prejudices.

There were two documentaries. Very interesting both of them but I doubt they’d be made today.
The one in question Things We Wont Say About Race, focussed on certain groups propensity to commit certain crimes: disproportionate number of Blacks involved in gang activity, etc at which point he did raise the issue that there was the exploitation of vulnerable young white girls by largely muslim men of Pakistani origin.
This has subsequently been proved to be undeniable. This and the other programme about the Charlie Hebdo cartoons would appear to be the spark for his suspension

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Seriously, I'd like to know why criticism of Israel and all its policies is considered anti Semitic? Criticism of the brutal Saudi regime, looking after our holiest cities, is not considered Islamaphobic and it shouldn't be because that government is getting away with all sorts of atrocities.

Good point. Labour should answer that

 

[Smores]

This is just ridiculous tactics to try and negate the expected damning report from EHRC investigation into anti-semitism in the Labour party. The foul stench that emanates from the NEC and Formby / McKlusky s going to take years to sweep away no matter who gets the leadership.

Sadly Kier Starmer is just going to be another Kinnock who spends all his time cleaning out the rot in the party rather than being able to take on the tories and win. Labour will get annihilated at the local elections but the crazy gang will no doubt claim a 1% uplift as either a damning indictment of Starmer or the start of a new socialist dawn if Long bailey gets in. (shudders)

I don't disagree with the intentions behind this but his comments do cross the line and it's incredibly hypocritical for some in here to pretend otherwise given previous comments.

So much debate in our politics seems to be picking sides in the Israel Arab conflict and weaponising the issue for a domestic audience.

 

[Zlatattack]

Seriously, I'd like to know why criticism of Israel and all its policies is considered anti Semitic? Criticism of the brutal Saudi regime, looking after our holiest cities, is not considered Islamaphobic and it shouldn't be because that government is getting away with all sorts of atrocities.

It depends on how someone says it, or what they say. Some critcism of Israel is laced in anti semitism, especially when it suggests that all jews support the negative actions of Israel.

 

[dumbo]

He's always struck me as a particularly stupid man.

"First of all, Muslims are not a race. My personal hero was Muhammad Ali, before that Malcolm X.

"They became Muslims largely because it is a pan-racial faith. This is not a racial grouping, so describing hostility to them as racial is nonsense."

Yep.

 

[2 man midfield]

He's always struck me as a particularly stupid man.


Yep.

Up until the last sentence I’d agree with him, or am I missing something?

 

[2mufc0]

This thread is amazing.

If anyone from any other ethnic or religious background feels discriminated against, automatically (and rightfully in my opinion), the alleged victim is taken at face value. If a Muslim feels discriminated against - we have to prove it by all sorts or ridiculous metrics.

The definition of semite has been adjusted to ensure that European jews who have no racial, lingual or genetic semetic links can consider themselves semitic, yet if a Muslim feels a victim of discrimination based on their religion - they're told it's not racist, because Muslims aren't a race. Jews can be a race apparently, but Muslims can't.

Can you imagine British society signing up to a definition of anti Islamaphobia such as this one?

http://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Trevor Phillips hates Islam, and is predujiced against Muslims because of his hatred of our religion. It's like saying I hate Liverpool FC, I hate the geographical location, i hate the clubs supporters - but i've got no predujice against them.

I agree with your wider point here. Problem is we are not united or enthused enough to make a stand and challenge racism like the Jews rightly did and have admirely succeeded. I can only think of a handful of Muslim people in media, organisations etc that are standing upto the issue, but at the same time people need to start listening.

I think a lot comes down to resources and education to combat the issue, no one is going to help the situation but us.

 

[Zlatattack]

I agree with your wider point here. Problem is we are not united or enthused enough to make a stand and challenge racism like the Jews rightly did and have admirely succeeded. I can only think of a handful of Muslim people in media, organisations etc that are standing upto the issue, but at the same time people need to start listening.

I think a lot comes down to resources and education to combat the issue, no one is going to help the situation but us.

I agree. As a community we're rubbish with priorities. 99% of our households will pay for sky, I suspect not even 9% of them would swap that for a membership to fund something like AIPAC for Muslims.

Ask people to donate for a mosque - no problem, ask them to fund scholarships for media; no chance.

 

[Shamwow]

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[nickm]

Have a look at the tweets on this account - he breaks it down well.

https://twitter.com/miqdaad?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

I tried to find links to what Trevor Philips has said - including context - but could not.

If the evidence is so damning, please could someone post it?

 

[nickm]

Up until the last sentence I’d agree with him, or am I missing something?

I think it's a pedantic point to make - yes I guess technically you could argue that and be "right" in a narrow semantic sense - but it misses the wider point. Labour's definition is pretty clear and seems to be supported by the muslim community.

 

[dumbo]

Up until the last sentence I’d agree with him, or am I missing something?

Ali and Malcolm X did not become Muslims largely because it is a pan-racial faith. Furthermore the brand of Islam they subscribed to was necessarily based on racial grouping , and politically motivated black supremacism and separatism. To conflate the historical Nation Of Islam with the traditional Islam that pertains to the accusations seems stupidly unhelpful.

I can't be anti-Semitic I love Madonna's music.

 

[Zlatattack]

I tried to find links to what Trevor Philips has said - including context - but could not.

If the evidence is so damning, please could someone post it?

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Go through that, then you'll have to find your own links.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Even if it’s not “racist” it is still clearly discriminatory surely? Isn’t that the underlying problem? So the “it’s not racist” argument is semantics?

 

[nickm]

Ali and Malcolm X did not become Muslims largely because it is a pan-racial faith. Furthermore the brand of Islam they subscribed to was necessarily based on racial grouping , and politically motivated black supremacism and separatism. To conflate the historical Nation Of Islam with the traditional Islam that pertains to the accusations seems stupidly unhelpful.

My understanding is the Nation of Islam's interpretation isn't exactly accepted by many muslim organisations/faiths either.

 

[nickm]

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Go through that, then you'll have to find your own links.

I'm trying but I can't find the actual comments. I'll have to look later. Bit weird though given that same article also cites his pioneering work around islamophobia.

Embarrassing for Labour in about 5 different ways though.

 

[dumbo]

My understanding is the Nation of Islam's interpretation isn't exactly accepted by many muslim organisations/faiths either.

I think it's really only some of the black radical groups, Five Per Cent Nation and such. Islam with the big 'I' pretty much disowns them and their message universally, as far as I've seen anyway. Still a very interesting bunch when viewed through the history of American civl rights. And Malcolm X and Muhammed Ali's journeys from the one type to the other are worth noting.

Edit: Historically that is, I think they reformed at some point and I don't really know anything much about the newer organisation.

 

[Fiskey]

A lot of people in this thread laughing about his distinction between Jews being a race and Muslims not. I don't see why? This is factually correct, the Jews are a distinct racial group, and have been for millennia. There are many different races who practice Islam/are Muslims, so much so you cannot call Muslims a race.

There are some people of other races who follow Judaism, but there is also a clear "Jewish" race.

 

[Zlatattack]

A lot of people in this thread laughing about his distinction between Jews being a race and Muslims not. I don't see why? This is factually correct, the Jews are a distinct racial group, and have been for millennia. There are many different races who practice Islam/are Muslims, so much so you cannot call Muslims a race.

There are also some people of other races who follow Judaism, but there is also a clear "Jewish" race.

You could argue that about Christians and Muslims too. Even Hindus and Sikhs. Most Sikhs are Punjabi in origin, does that make sikhism a race? Most Muslims were Arabs.Today the majority of Muslims are not arabs, are the majorities of jews still ethnically from the middle east?

 

[Fiskey]

You could argue that about Christians and Muslims too. Even Hindus and Sikhs. Most Sikhs are Punjabi in origin, does that make sikhism a race? Most Muslims were Arabs.Today the majority of Muslims are not arabs, are the majorities of jews still ethnically from the middle east?

The Jewish religion has historically been more exclusive then either Islam or Christianity, and is also much older, which allowed time for a distinct race to develop. You simply can't make the same argument.

I also don't actually think its true that most Muslims were Arabs (although again the concept of an Arab is a very difficult one, there were very many different Bedouin cultures).

Edit: I don't know enough about Hinduism and Sikhism to comment on those.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Even if it’s not “racist” it is still clearly discriminatory surely? Isn’t that the underlying problem? So the “it’s not racist” argument is semantics?

Depends on the context of the argument. Racism and other types of discrimination may be equally bad, but they take different forms and it can be important to understand those different forms to understand the problem. But, yeah, that's probably not the context here by the looks of it, the comment sounds more akin to "I can't be racist because my mates are black" kind of stuff that you used to hear a lot.

 

[2mufc0]

You could argue that about Christians and Muslims too. Even Hindus and Sikhs. Most Sikhs are Punjabi in origin, does that make sikhism a race? Most Muslims were Arabs.Today the majority of Muslims are not arabs, are the majorities of jews still ethnically from the middle east?

Seems to be used as a get out of jail free card these days.

 

[Dante]

Races don't exist biologically speaking. They're a human construct.

So if you're going to be so pedantic about definitions of racism, you should be equally pedantic about definitions of race.

Which would mean that it's impossible to be racist against black people because there's no such thing as black people except as a sociological group.

But then, muslims are a sociological group too. It either cuts both ways or not at all. To call islamophobia anything other than racism is wrong. It's racism by any measure of its practice or construction.

Wanting to split up 'good' racism (Islamophobia) from 'bad' racism (anti-black sentiment) is a dangerous road to go down.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Depends on the context of the argument. Racism and other types of discrimination may be equally bad, but they take different forms and it can be important to understand those different forms to understand the problem. But, yeah, that's probably not the context here by the looks of it, the comment sounds more akin to "I can't be racist because my mates are black" kind of stuff that you used to hear a lot.

Yeah you are right. Maybe my original post was a little to broad in the language. It is definitely important to understand the differences. I guess I meant more of even if we take the argument that it’s not “racist” it’s still discriminatory so not much help. It is a bit like saying irish immigrants in America didn’t suffer from racism because irish is not a race-well ok, but they were still discriminated against and that too is/was a problem. Though as you say, a different problem to racism itself perhaps.

 

[Fiskey]

Races don't exist biologically speaking. They're a human construct.

So if you're going to be so pedantic about definitions of racism, you should be equally pedantic about definitions of race.

Which would mean that it's impossible to be racist against black people because there's no such thing as black people except as a sociological group.

But then, muslims are a sociological group too. It either cuts both ways or not at all. To call islamophobia anything other than racism is wrong. It's racism by any measure of its practice or construction.

Wanting to split up 'good' racism (Islamophobia) from 'bad' racism (anti-black sentiment) is a dangerous road to go down.

They aren't a human construct in their entirety, unless you don't believe in genetics at all? Or are you saying that there is no such thing as race but that there is ethnicity?

Black people is an interesting example, because the diversity of genetics amongst black people is huge. In that sense I agree that all black don't necessarily belong to the same race, as there are multiple black races (ethnicities). However you can be racist towards all of those black ethnicities (races). If you are saying that there is no difference between people at all based on their genetics, that is wrong and we can tell its wrong by using our eyes.