Tuppet vs. 2mufc0 - NT peak draft

Who would win based on their NT peak?


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Tuppet

Twice in its history has a World Cup triumph been largely attributed to a single person. Diego Maradona wowed the world in 1986 but 24 years before him another man “single-handedly” helped his country win football’s greatest prize. Garrincha. The fact that Brazil’s 1962 success is often associated with a single player, despite the brilliant Selecao squad is while exaggerated (as all 'single-handed' victories are, even of Maradona's) still betrays the incredible heights Garrincha scaled in Chile.

Garrincha is revered as one of the greatest dribblers in game and a tricky right winger, but for that one tournament Garrincha was much more than that. He was a playmaker from right side, he could put a pin point cross in as well as cut in and shoot powerfully, he could take a mean free kick and scored via headers and long shots. But most importantly as always he caused panic when he started running toward defense with his incredible dribbling, providing space and chances for rest of the attack line.

“What planet is Garrincha from?” – Headline from El Mercurio, 1962 after Semifinal.

And around this genius of Garrincha my squad is built. Most of my picks were dictated by how to get the best out of him as well as follow certain principles in how my team is supposed to play -

  • Vibrant, free-flowing football.
  • High creative freedom in midfield and emphasis on flair.
  • Fluid shape with movement in attack.
  • Loose variants of the 4-2-4 formation - flat or box.
  • Technical ability throughout the team - Technique, Dribbling, Vision, Passing.

We'll play in the same lop-sided 4-2-4/4-3-3 formation that Garrincha played in 62. In the midfield the idea would be to move ball quickly toward the forwards - Garrincha/Puskas, instead of holding on to it. We would play in a quick-ish tempo and with a defensive line that is pushed slightly higher up.

3 out of my front 6 are Brazilians who have played in similar systems. Hungarians and Brazilians shared mostly the same system and would fit in here very well. As Hidegkuti described here -

‘Basically, the only difference between Brazil’s interpretation of the system and that of Hungary was in the number worn by the forward who withdrew into midfield,’ said Nándor Hidegkuti. ‘In 1958, the Brazilians opted for inside-right Didi, while for Hungary it was the centre-forward who fell back. In both teams the withdrawn forward operated in what we might call left midfield, and again in both teams the left-half fell back to play a more defensive role, while the right-half maintained the balance in midfield by playing a more open attacking game.’

Our attack is certainly the high point of our team, with 3 of our 4 forwards are World cup golden ball winners and were talisman for their sides. Zagallo as well was selected in ToT 62 and has a crucial tactical role here. Here are few points on the usual Garrincha-isms we followed to get the best out of him-

1. Defense first right back - Victor Rodriguez Andrade - WC 1950 - Winner, ToT.

A rock solid, defense first fullback is often seen as the way to get the best out of Garrincha and on the world cup form VR Andrade is as good as any player for this role. Twice selected in World cup ToT in 50 & 54, handling some of the best attackers of his era, he had immaculate tactical discipline to go with great physical gifts.

One interesting fact is that since he played as a right half, he is comfortable in moving in midfield to mark an inside forward, which is what he did to Zizinho in 50 WC or stay out and handle an outside left, such as he handled Czibor in 54. Its interesting since he would be likely facing Rivelino who is more of an inside forward. Andrade can make life difficult for him even when Rivelino decides to cut in and play more in midfield.

While he was not a central defender and can move forward to support attack, he was decidedly a defense first player, who would win the ball and pass it quickly to either Bozsik or Garrincha, this would obviously suit Garrincha, who likes to hog the ball on the right side and is likely going to waste & frustrate any overlapper behind him. For more on Rodriguez Andrade, check Anto's brilliant write up here.

2. Hard working left winger - Mario Zagallo - WC 1962 - Winner, ToT

After picking up Garrincha, I thought about the left wing position more than any other in the team. A superstar in the mould of Dzajic or Czibor (connection with Puskas & Bozsik) would make the attack look devastating on paper (Garrincha & Dzajic running at you !!) its obvious though if going with the 2 forward in the middle approach we would need a more tactical & hard working prescence in the left side.

Enter Zagallo, his proven connection with Garrincha not withstanding, he should have made this draft on his own credentials alone. With 5 crucial assists and a goal, Zagallo earned his seat in the team of the tourno in 62 world cup. And he did this while playing deeper, covering an aging Nilton Santos and generally acting as hard working, intelligent counter weight to the mercurial and uber attacking Garrincha on the other side.

Zagallo here is playing the same role, when we possess the ball, he would join the attack making the shape akin to 4-2-4, while off the ball he would drop deeper and play almost in the midfield making it 4-3-3. From what I've seen as a player Zagallo's best trait seem to be his long passing/crossing and his motoring up & down the left flank. He was also a big game player as he proved on many occasions, most importantly in 62 semifinal against the host Chile, where he provided 3 assists helping Brazil win a tense tie 4-2. His cross for 4th goals was sublime.
Its hard to think of a player who would balance the anarchic brilliance of Garrincha, while still providing fantastic attacking outlet on his own better than Zagallo here.

3. Long range passer - Playmaker - Bozsik - WC 1954 - Finalist, ToT

Didi was the obvious first choice here, we needed a player with immaculate long passing who could pick out Garrincha/Pusaks/Romario from deep. Especially for Garrincha it would be very helpful if the playmaker does not hog the ball himself but rather prefer to pass it to him, which would save frustration for both the players. He should be able to play in a midfield 2, so fairly decent at handling pressure and who can do his fair share of defending. We don't need a player who dwell on ball too much or need to maintain possession via short passes for being effective. Since we have plenty of goals in our forward line and we don't really need a big goal threat here. Finally we obviously need big performances in International tournaments. Bozsik ticks pretty much every box here and would fit in my tactic perfectly.

Bozsik was the brain behind one of world cup history's greatest teams in Hungary 54. They had been destroying pretty much every international team since Olympic 52 and lived up to the moniker of heavy favorites in 54 WC, where they continued dominating teams until the final where they come undone, in the end, by ill luck, a muddy pitch that hampered their passing game, a touch of complacency and finally payed for a porus defense. Despite of this anticlimax Bozsik was largly regarded as the best center mid (attacking right half) of the tournament.

Bozsik’s decision making was one of the central strengths to his game. Not only was he able to spot the right pass at the right moment, his technique was impeccable. Arguably the finest deep lying playmaker in history, he possessed a range of passing that allowed him to find distant targets, but he was also happy to play the simple ball if it meant retaining possession. Furthermore, he was almost impossible to dispossess as he shielded the ball so well from opponents. In world cup 54 he was right at his peak and is rightly one of the most important player for my team.

4. Goal scorer extraordinaire - Romario - WC 94 - Winner, Golden ball
Garrincha was often double or triple marked and still managed to beat his markers, this would obviously create gaps and chaos in the opposition defense line and who better to take advantage of this than the player whom Cruyff described as the "Genius of the Penalty area".
Ronaldo mentioned that "Romario was the most decisive player he has ever seen" and he wasn't wrong. A scorer of more than 1000 goals Romario reached the height of his peak in WC 94, where he inspired Brazil to a world cup vicotry winning golden ball and world player of the year in the process.
His role here is simple, he would use his agility, technique and finishing to either create chances for himself & Puskas and exploit whatever gaps Garrincha creates on the right side.

Puskas - Olympic 1952 - Winner
One of the greatest forwards of all time, Puskas was smack down in the middle of his peak when he along with rest of Mighty Magyars started a run of winning 36 games destroying teams left, right & center. In Olympic 52, Pusaks was the captain and best player of a team that scored 20 goals & let in 2 in 5 games. He scored 4 goals with the opening goals both in Semifinal against Sweden & final against Yugoslavia.
Here he would play his usual inside left forward role, linking midfield to attack line, providing strong runs from deep, creating chances and adding a great threat from outside the box with his brilliant left foot.

Now while my attack is mostly centered around Garrincha, my team also boast a very competitive defense with all 4 of my defenders and the goalkeeper making their respective Team of the Tournament.

Mascherano - WC 2014 - Finalist
A rock at the heart of Argentina’s run to the World Cup final, Mascherano was one player who didn’t deserve to be on the losing side at the Maracana. Widely regarded as the true leader of the team, he played as a deep lying playmaker who can both start an attack with his passing and shield the defense using his great tackling and physicality. His anus tearing tackle on Robben was one of the highlights of the tournament. He would play a similar role here alongside Bozsik in winning the ball and attack from deep.

Nilton Santos - WC 1958 - Winner - ToT

One of the finest left back of all time, Mr. Encyclopedia Santos was also a mentor and club mate of Garrincha. His attacking forays are considered legendary and reputation is largely built off WC exploits. He is one of the better wing backs when it comes to defending and is more than capable of handling the oppositions offensive threat whilst also providing an attacking outlet.

Santos would rekindle his beautiful partnership with Zagallo, who was a perfect player to cover for Santos runs in opposition half. Here he would play his usual game, handling the opposition right winger while providing attacking balance to defensive solidity of Andrade on the other flank.

Albert Shesternyov - Euro 1968 - ToT
Considered greatest Soviet defender of all time, Shesternyov led Soviet team to semifinal of 1968 Euro where they got eliminated via a coin toss. An extremely fast and athletic defender, he was quite good with ball at his feet as well. Here he would reprise his usual covering defender role, while his partner would be more aggressive to apply pressure on the opposition attacker. His great speed would help him to go toe to toe with best of forwards.

Jose Santamaria - WC 1954 - ToT
Best defender of the 50s Santamaria is one of the finest stopper of all time. In world cup 54, he was part of a pretty solid Uruguayan defense which held his own in one of the highest scoring world cups and grabbed a galactico move to Real. Here he would line up along with his team mate Andrade here as a stopper and the more aggressive defender of the two. He was a pretty great marker, good in the air and was decent on ball as well, he played sometimes in defensive midfield as well. He earned the nickname of the wall and had great winning mentality as his trophy cabinet shows.

Together these two would make a very good defensive combo, which is fast, athletic and overall well suited to play in slightly higher defensive line.

Sepp Maier - WC 1974 - ToT
Sepp Maier has a cabinet full of trophies but he reached the peak of his international career in WC 1974 as the Germans went all the way to the final with a legendary team that included the likes of Franz Beckenbauer, Berti Vogts, Gerd Müller and Paul Breitner. The greatest triumph came when the hosts defeated a Johan Cruyff-inspired Netherlands team 2–1 in the final in Maier's own hometown Munich.

"Without Sepp we would never have won the World Cup. Maier performed marvellously in the final – he saved at least half a dozen unsavable shots."
- Bayern and West Germany team-mate Franz Beckenbauer


Thoughts on game -

1. Garrincha facing Abidal is the battle I would back my man to win. Nothing wrong with Abidal in general but he is just not of the all time caliber player that could keep Garrincha 62 at bay.

2. If Rivelino starts at left then we are looking at a very narrow left flank. Rivelino is often shown as left winger in formations but he did most of his work in 70 WC in central locations, with Abidal hardly providing any width behind him that flank is ripe for Garrincha to dominate.

3. As I mentioned before Andrade is very much suited to take Rivelino out of the game. When Rivelino moves infield to aid in midfield, Andrade can do the same. He did exactly this to Zizinho which some sources rate as a better player than Rivelino.

4. I don't fancy either of our defense to cope up with our attacks. Pele/Rossi is a great forward duo and I think they would score. But I believe 2mufc0's defense would find it even harder to cope with my attack. Shesternyov with his great speed and Santamaria as a brilliant marker, shielded by Mascherano is a good match for Pele/ Rossi even if they can not keep them quiet. Romario with his brilliant movement and explosive speed is not a great match for Koeman.

5. Nilton Santos is arguably world cup history's greatest left back and I don't see Muller/Zambrotta posing much problem for Zagallo/Santos.



VS.



===Substitution and tactics update - 2mufc0 (60 minutes)===


2mufc0

Manuel Neuer - Neuer is widely regarded as a "complete" and modern goalkeeper. He has earned critical acclaim from former players and pundits for his speed, stamina, composure, concentration, mentality as well being able to adapt to any given situation on the pitch. Winner of the golden glove and team of the tournament of World Cup 2014.

Gianluca Zambrotta - Key part of one of the best defensive units in world cup history (2006). His main attributes were his pace, marking ability, tackling, strength, tenacity, and stamina. A tenacious and hard-working player, he was also gifted with good technique and ball skills, as well as an excellent crossing ability and a powerful shot from outside the area. Selected in the team of the tournament (2006).

Ronald Koeman - Ball playing center back of the great 1988 Dutch team that won the Euros. Complete defender who was also takes fantastic free kicks and penalties, one of the best goal scoring defenders of all time. Included in the 1988 Euro team of the tournament.

Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck - Part of the great German defense in their world cup win in 1974. Formed a formidable partnership with Beckenbaur. Was known for his no nonsense style defending, great tackler and a tough competitor.

Eric Abidal - Abidal was a tactically intelligent and versatile defender, capable of featuring as a center or left back due to his positional sense and his ability to read the game. In his prime, he was also quick and strong which, along with his technical ability and distribution, allowed him run up the wing to assist his team offensively as well as defensively. Played left back for the French team that lost to Italy in the final in 2006.

Thomas Muller - A player that performs well in all international tournaments, i have gone with the 2010 version who played on the right side of midfield and used his great pace and finishing in a counter attacking setup. Always in the right place at the right time, great off the ball movement and clinical in front of goal. Winner of the golden boot and best young player at the world cup in 2010.

Savtopluk Pluskal - Defensive warhorse who was the backbone behind the Czechoslovakia team that reached the 1962 World Cup final. Imposing and defensively rock solid, his ability to anchor the midfield freed up Masopust so thrillingly in '62. Selected in the 1963 Rest of the World XI amongst a pantheon of greats, he stood out both in midfield and at centre-half. Full profile. (credit to Gio. took this from his write up)

Andrea Pirlo - One of the best deep lying play makers of his generation. Passing, dribbling and capable of screening in front of the defense. Motm in the world cup final 2006 and chosen in the team of the tournament.

Roberto Rivelino - An attacking midfielder, he is widely regarded as one of the most graceful football players ever, and among the best midfielders of his generation. With the close control, feints and ability with his left foot, Maradonna named Rivellino among his greatest inspirations growing up. Key part of the Brazil team that won the world cup in 1970 and played on the left side.

Pele - The king of football, arguably the greatest ever, i don't think i need to expand further on the great man as every person will know his credentials. Played no.10 at the 1970 WC to a devastating effect.

Paulo Rossi - A goal scorer who turned up at the biggest stage in 1982, won the golden boot and scored important goals for Italy in the latter stages in the tournament and goes down as a Italian legend due to his performances in the tournament.

9 of my starting eleven played key parts in their national teams winning the tournament while 2 of them finished runners up.

Tactics

Attacking
wise the team will try to play through Pirlo and Pele predominately. Pele in his 1970 role will pick up the ball mostly just off the halfway line making it difficult to pick him up, from here he can run at the opposition or use his creative ability to pick out his team mates. Rossi and Muller with their off the ball movement will thrive off balls from Pele, Rivelino and Pirlo. Pirlo will be used in his WC 2006 role pulling the strings, like in 2006 he will have a ball winner next to him Pluskal, who is a big upgrade on Gattuso who Pirlo thrived playing with.

I believe the team can play in a variety of ways, with Koeman, Pirlo and Pele we have players that can control the game and bring the ball through the back, we can also play the counter attacking game with Pele, Muller and Revilino who can counter at a pace.

Defensively i have Neuer in goal , one of the better keepers in the draft capable of making match winning save consistently. Koeman and Schwarzenbeck compliment each other well. Schwarzenbeck was at his best when he was partnered with a ball player next to him (Beckenbaur) and i would expect similar results from this partnership. Both of my full backs can attack but are fantastic defenders and should be able to handle the high quality wide players in the draft. In midfield i have Pluskal who will be doing most of the dirty work and Pirlo helping out, Muller with his work rate will be able to drop back and form a midfield 3 when defending. Pele and Rossi with their work rate should be able to contribute by pressing the opposition midfield and defenders.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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Two excellent albeit similar teams. Very difficult to choose.

Going by tournament peaks, I think Pele/Rossi had higher peaks than Puskas/Romario. And Rivelino/Muller in free roaming roles will be hard to tackle.

On the other side Tuppet has a more direct route with Garrincha who was godly in '62. But I feel with Puskas and Garrincha, his team done with a striker better involved in building up gameplay.
 

Tuppet

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Good luck @2mufc0
Two excellent albeit similar teams. Very difficult to choose.

Going by tournament peaks, I think Pele/Rossi had higher peaks than Puskas/Romario. And Rivelino/Muller in free roaming roles will be hard to tackle.

On the other side Tuppet has a more direct route with Garrincha who was godly in '62. But I feel with Puskas and Garrincha, his team done with a striker better involved in building up gameplay.
Pele had higher peak than Puskas, Rossi & Romario were about the same. Garrincha had highest peak on the pitch though. Also take defense as a part of equation as well. Muller & Rivellino are facing Nilton Santos & Victor Andrade, on the other hand Garrincha & Zagallo are facing Abidal & Zambrotta who are both a level or two below my pair. Finally I don't know what you mean by a striker better involved in building up game play. Puskas was always very involved with the build up, he was hardly a poacher.
 

2mufc0

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Thanks @Tuppet good luck to you too.

While i admit it will be difficult to keep Garrincha quiet, i do think you are under rating Zambrotta and Abidal. I agree in all time standards there are better players but if we look at the tournament peaks they both performed to the highest levels in 06. Italy conceded only 2 goals in that tournament and France 3. Both played all games.

Edit: Zambrotta missed the opening game due to injury but was a mainstay after that.
 

mazhar13

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But I feel with Puskas and Garrincha, his team done with a striker better involved in building up gameplay.
Really? Why would both need a striker like that when they both were capable of doing that? Also, both have Boszik behind them who's great at dictating the game. Plus, Zagallo is an excellent foil for both players with his intelligence, movement, and technique.

Plus, you're dismissing Romario's ability to link up play, I feel. He was perfectly capable of linking up with other forwards and can work excellently with Puskas and Garrincha.
 

Tuppet

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I would like to mention again that while Puskas was not an out and out playmaker he was definitely very capable in creating chances was always involved in build up play.

"If a good player has the ball, he should have the vision to spot three options," the full-back Jeno Buzanszky said. "Puskas always saw at least five."

He was actually similar in role to Pele of 58 & 62, with whom Garrincha created great partnership.

Thanks @Tuppet good luck to you too.

While i admit it will be difficult to keep Garrincha quiet, i do think you are under rating Zambrotta and Abidal. I agree in all time standards there are better players but if we look at the tournament peaks they both performed to the highest levels in 06. Italy conceded only 2 goals in that tournament and France 3. Both played all games.

Edit: Zambrotta missed the opening game due to injury but was a mainstay after that.
I don't think we can compare these things like that. Its like saying that Mascherano would keep Pele quiet, since he played all game for Argentina and only conceded 4, being the most important player in defense, with a much worse defense than Italy/France (06). It won't work like this and Abidal in grand scheme of things I don't remember of displaying any performance that would assure me that he is capable of handling Garrincha 62.
 

antohan

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Why is Abidal running off the pitch? Scared of Mané? :lol:

If you are picking RB VR Andrade then it should be 54 IMO.
 

2mufc0

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While a lot is being made out the defensive capabilities of my full backs, this discussion has taken away the attacking ability of the team which imo would win the game for me. Also Pirlo put one of the best midfield displays in world cups in 06 and would help my team gain control in midfield.
 

Tuppet

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Soccer in Sun and Shadows said:
“One of his many brothers baptized him Garrincha, the name of an ugly, useless little bird. When he started playing soccer, doctors made the sign of the cross. They predicted this misshapen survivor of hunger and polio, dumb and lame, with the brain of an infant, a spinal column like an S and both legs bowed to the same side, would never be an athlete.

There never was another right winger like him. In the 1958 World Cup he was the best in his position, in ’62 the best player in the championship. But throughout his many years on the field, Garrincha was more: in the entire history of soccer no one made more people happy.

When he was playing, the field became a circus ring, the ball a tame beast, the game an invitation to a party. Like a child defending his pet, Garrincha would not let go of the ball, and together the ball and he would perform devilish tricks that had people in stitches. He would jump on her, she would hop on him, she would hide, he would escape, she would chase after him. In the process, the opposing players would crash into each other, their legs twisting around until they would fall, seasick, on their behinds. Garrincha did his rascal’s mischief at the edge of the field, along the right touchline, far from the center; raised in the shantytown suburbs, that’s where he preferred to play. His club was Botafogo, which means “firelighter,” and he was the botafogo who fired up the fans crazed by firewater and all things fiery. He was the one who would climb out of the training camp window because he heard from some far-off back alley the call of a ball asking to be played with, music demanding to be danced to, a woman wanting to be kissed.

A winner? A loser with incredible luck. And luck doesn’t last. As they say in Brazil, if shit was worth anything, the poor would be born without asses.

Garrincha died a predictable death: poor, drunk, and alone.”
 

Gio

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Where do we place Puskas here? Obviously it's peak Puskas insofar as he was 25 in the Olympics of 1952, and he scored 4 in 5 which is decent going. At the same time, while acknowledging that the Eastern Europeans took it very seriously, the Olympics shouldn't really carry as much weight as a continental competition or World Cup. And I'm not sure what kind of opposition the non-Eastern bloc teams served up.

Otherwise, the likes of Garrincha and Romario should have a good game. Garrincha because he's up against Abidal, and Romario because there is a lack of pace in that central quartet of 2mufc, albeit the presence of Neuer negates that threat in behind to some extent.

Like what 2mufc has done with the front six though, well balanced and engineered to get the best out of everybody.
 

harms

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Very hard to separate the teams. I really like the idea of Müller and Rossi at the end of Pele/Rivellino/Pirlo's passes; on the other hand, Tuppet's side looks easier on the eye with more recognized star quality, although it shouldn't matter.

In the end it would be about Romario's suitability for the system; a less selfish striker with more aerial threat would be ideal here (Seeler/Klinsmann/even Kocsis maybe). But that front three interchanging with all those flicks and one-twos should be devastating enough on its own.
 

2mufc0

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Some clips showcasing the abilities of some of the key players in my team:

Muller (pace, movement, finishing, box to box work rate)


Pele (pace, power dribbling, shooting, chest control, left foot, right foot, heading, passing, work rate etc....)


Rossi (movement, finishing, big game goals)


Rivelino (nice interview/commentary on the world cup 1970)

 
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Ecstatic

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@2mufc0 has done a good job for his 1st draft.

Will try to comment tomorrow morning
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Maybe it'll help a bit better if he switched Pluskal and Schwarzenbeck to the left. Schwarzenbeck is capable of covering for adventurous LBs and might be a better fit to give Abidal a hand. Same with Pluskal.
 
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oneniltothearsenal

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At first it looks a goal fest with two relatively attacking 4-2-4 tactics. The biggest mismatch though certainly looks to be the little bird against Abidal. I like EAP's suggestion that Schwarz and Pluskal might be better suited to supporting that side.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Yeah, having Abidal running off the pitch seems like a bold, if possibly risky, tactical choice here.

Seriously, though, I wouldn't have him running anywhere with Garrincha out there as a pretty much constant threat.

The switcharoo idea (Pluskal, Schw'beck) seems a fair suggestion too. The German is who you want there to deal with a Garrincha on the loose, not Koeman.
 

2mufc0

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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll be making some adjustments and also a sub. Not sure how much a difference it will make, but maybe some of you guys could reconsider.

I still think the Abidal vs Garrincha is over blown, the same could be said for Mascherano who would be out of his depth against Pele.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I still think the Abidal vs Garrincha is over blown, the same could be said for Mascherano who would be out of his depth against Pele.
Can't be helped, really.

It's God mode Garrincha. Precisely what he's up against is bound to be scrutinized, probably to the extent that it draws some attention away from other areas of interest.

For me, Abidal's an alright choice/fit as such, but I wouldn't have him on any offensive duties (lose the arrows), and he could do with some help (the switcharoo).

Your opponent arguably packs more pure defensive strength in his back four + designated DM setup, which makes your setup with two balanced (as per the info given + formation pic) fullbacks, one ballplayer and only one pure defensive beast (Schw'beck) look more vulnerable.

Not saying the above is necessarily how things would play out, but it's a first impression - and we all know how important that often is.
 

2mufc0

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Can't be helped, really.

It's God mode Garrincha. Precisely what he's up against is bound to be scrutinized, probably to the extent that it draws some attention away from other areas of interest.

For me, Abidal's an alright choice/fit as such, but I wouldn't have him on any offensive duties (lose the arrows), and he could do with some help (the switcharoo).

Your opponent arguably packs more pure defensive strength in his back four + designated DM setup, which makes your setup with two balanced (as per the info given + formation pic) fullbacks, one ballplayer and only one pure defensive beast (Schw'beck) look more vulnerable.

Not saying the above is necessarily how things would play out, but it's a first impression - and we all know how important that often is.
Thanks. I do think this Abidal issue has taken the spotlight away from other parts of the pitch. For example Pluskal is far superior than Mascherano and his centre backs aren't that much superior to mine. Also imo my keeper is better, just slightly though, his anticipation of danger and sweeper abilities would help negate the pace of garincha.

I also think my attackers did better In their respective tournaments. Puskas in his Olympic tournament was great but it's not the same level as world cups and shouldn't be given the same weight.

Like I said I'll be making some adjustments and hopefully people can have a second look.
 

antohan

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Maybe it'll help a bit better if he switched Pluskal and Schwarzenbeck to the left. Schwarzenbeck is capable of covering for adventurous LBs and might be a better fit to give Abidal a hand. Same with Pluskal.
Not both. It is Puskas that would run riot then.
 

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I still think the Abidal vs Garrincha is over blown, the same could be said for Mascherano who would be out of his depth against Pele.
What Chester said. I think as a unit, your offence is better...but his defence has no noticeable weakness.

Abidal usually gets rated alright, but against god mode Garrincha, any LB better get some support. You need to switch Sch'beck to support Abidal. And get rid of the arrows as you need Eric to focus fully on Garrincha. Zambarotta has enough attack for the other flank to balance this out.
 

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Not both. It is Puskas that would run riot then.
What Chester said. I think as a unit, your offence is better...but his defence has no noticeable weakness.

Abidal usually gets rated alright, but against god mode Garrincha, any LB better get some support. You need to switch Sch'beck to support Abidal. And get rid of the arrows as you need Eric to focus fully on Garrincha. Zambarotta has enough attack for the other flank to balance this out.
Cheers. Will also be making a sub to help contain Garrincha who imo is the main threat. That's another reason why i think my team would win, I have more attacking options and goals.
 

antohan

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Thanks. I do think this Abidal issue has taken the spotlight away from other parts of the pitch. For example Pluskal is far superior than Mascherano and his centre backs aren't that much superior to mine. Also imo my keeper is better, just slightly though, his anticipation of danger and sweeper abilities would help negate the pace of garincha.

I also think my attackers did better In their respective tournaments. Puskas in his Olympic tournament was great but it's not the same level as world cups and shouldn't be given the same weight.

Like I said I'll be making some adjustments and hopefully people can have a second look.
Disagree with that. It's peak Puskas and you would expect the same performance levels from 54 minus the injury layoff.

Otherwise putting together all tournos is pointless because you create tourno tiers. E.g. the best Torres is the 08 one, and it isn't less than a WC Torres just by virtue of WC>Euro.
 

Gio

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Disagree with that. It's peak Puskas and you would expect the same performance levels from 54 minus the injury layoff.

Otherwise putting together all tournos is pointless because you create tourno tiers. E.g. the best Torres is the 08 one, and it isn't less than a WC Torres just by virtue of WC>Euro.
Agree there's little value in splitting hairs over the WC/Euros/Copa. But I think you have to factor in the opposition to some extent. Otherwise why did none of Colombia's perfect defence from 2001 get a call up, never mind the captain who also scored the winner in the final. Hence my post above trying to get a sense of the overall quality of the Olympics in the 1950s beyond the Eastern bloc.
 

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Thanks. I do think this Abidal issue has taken the spotlight away from other parts of the pitch. For example Pluskal is far superior than Mascherano and his centre backs aren't that much superior to mine. Also imo my keeper is better, just slightly though, his anticipation of danger and sweeper abilities would help negate the pace of garincha.

I also think my attackers did better In their respective tournaments. Puskas in his Olympic tournament was great but it's not the same level as world cups and shouldn't be given the same weight.

Like I said I'll be making some adjustments and hopefully people can have a second look.
Hmm it seem somehow the narrative has become that your attack is far superior than mine, which I don't think is correct at all. To begin with Puskas faced some very good teams in Olympic 52 in Yugoslavia & Sweden especially, and blew them away. Over the next few years they proved that no team was winning in that Olympic against them anyway. I don't know why wouldn't anyone rate Puskas in his peak form here and while he is a bit lower than Pele, he is still an all time great and arguably top 10 players of all time.

Zagallo is hardly getting a mention, but in world cup form I don't see him being any inferior to Rivelino. Its the same thing with Rossi & Romario, if they are similar level in world cups, than Zagallo & Rivelino are as well, both made ToT and both provided some great assistance to the primary attackers. I would even say Zagallo was probably more important to 62 squad than Rivelino was for 70s squad.

So all in all you have Pele above Puskas and I have Garrincha above Muller, rest are same so I don't think your attack is better than mine. The defense however I am pretty sure that mine is better.

Also don't know anything about Pluskal being better than Mascherano, you have anything to back that up ? Mascherano was absolutely phenomenal in 2014 and dragged a defense of Rojo/Romero/Otamendi to final.
 

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On Puskas -

From http://www.espnfc.us/story/1128542/rewind-to-1952-magical-magyars-dominate-olympics

The defining moment was the thrashing of Sweden, who many believed were one of the strongest teams at the tournament.


Heading into the final with a commanding aggregate scoreline of 18-2 - only rivalled by the Uruguayan side of 1924 - Hungary were to meet Yugoslavia, a side who could empathise with the difficulties of running a football side out of the Communist East.

The Yugoslavia team that Hungary beat in final included among others - Vukas, Zebec, Beara, Bobek & Cajkovski

From a quick look at the football squads for that Olympic -
The Hungarian route toward the gold medal was - Romania (full strength), Italy (pros), Turkey (no idea), Sweden (their usual NT at the time) and Yugoslavia (full strength). Not bad all-in-all. It's not like any team in the world could have stood in their way anyway.

Also that Olympic winning performance was not very different than early era WCs. For example Uruguay winning WC 50 faced - Bolivia, Spain, Sweden and Brazil. With Sweden and Brazil being the only good teams they faced. Brazil thrashed Sweden 7-1 in that tournament, and Spain 6-1 before losing to Uruguay. I can check with other earlier world cups but I don't think it would be any different.
 
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harms

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So all in all you have Pele above Puskas and I have Garrincha above Muller, rest are same so I don't think your attack is better than mine. The defense however I am pretty sure that mine is better.

Also don't know anything about Pluskal being better than Mascherano, you have anything to back that up ?
As a unit I think 2mufc's attack works better - not that yours is bad, obviously.

Agree regarding Pluskal, it was a strange statement - Pluskal was phenomenal, and a physical specimen in a way Mascherano never was, but the latter has other strengths and overall their tournaments are comparable.
 

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Hence my post above trying to get a sense of the overall quality of the Olympics in the 1950s beyond the Eastern bloc.
Well, it clearly wasn't great compared to what the W-European and S-American nations sported in WC/Euro/Copa tournaments, that's obvious.

It's basically E-Europe at full strength and the odd outlier that managed to send a decent team (for various reasons).

Sweden, for instance - but they obviously weren't at full strength (see Annah' monster write-up in the other match thread).

Shouldn't matter that much for certain years, though, as the strength of the E-Europeans is undeniable and the performances of the players unquestionable as such - but in general it's obviously not a prime tournament, what with so many nations sending amateurs, kids and no-marks.
 

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As a unit I think 2mufc's attack works better - not that yours is bad, obviously.

Agree regarding Pluskal, it was a strange statement - Pluskal was phenomenal, and a physical specimen in a way Mascherano never was, but the latter has other strengths and overall their tournaments are comparable.
Yeah I wanted to address that Romario suitability comment before. Why do you think a different player than Romario would be better ? From what I've seen Romario seem a perfect upgrade over Vava who was also fox in the box kind of player and forged the brilliant partnership with Garrincha and Zagallo to win 2 world cups.

While Amarildo showed in 62 that even great Pele is replaceable and again from that tournaments games, it seem his biggest strength were creativity and outside the box shooting which is upgraded here by Puskas. All in all it seem that this attack should be an upgraded version of 62 attack with Garrincha being the main star. Zagallo is understandably getting underrated but he would offer the wing play that Rivellino can not. My attack would stretch 2mufc0's defense and is already bombarding on his weakest part (not that there are any weak players in draft but by comparison) his fullbacks, causing his CBs to help wide many times and that is just perfect for Romario who should already be happy about contest against Koeman.
 

harms

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Yeah I wanted to address that Romario suitability comment before. Why do you think a different player than Romario would be better ? From what I've seen Romario seem a perfect upgrade over Vava who was also fox in the box kind of player and forged the brilliant partnership with Garrincha and Zagallo to win 2 world cups.
Vava was bigger and stronger, which, in my opinion, suited Garrincha better. Romario won't do much from Zagallo/Garrincha pure wingplay, although he'll be brilliant when Garrincha cuts in and plays it short with him and Puskas. Puskas himself also worked better with Kocsis - like Czibor told us later, he always had a choice - to send it low for Puskas' left foot or high to Kocsis' head. With Romario here their options are more limited.

Not a critical issue - and you can see that I myself voted for your team. But 2mufc's attack is flawless
 

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Vava was bigger and stronger, which, in my opinion, suited Garrincha better. Romario won't do much from Zagallo/Garrincha pure wingplay, although he'll be brilliant when Garrincha cuts in and plays it short with him and Puskas. Puskas himself also worked better with Kocsis - like Czibor told us later, he always had a choice - to send it low for Puskas' left foot or high to Kocsis' head. With Romario here their options are more limited.

Not a critical issue - and you can see that I myself voted for your team. But 2mufc's attack is flawless
No yeah I did saw your vote, just wanted to know the reason. It seem fair enough in theory but I really do think an out and out striker, who hangs at the shoulder of defense ready to pounce on the mistakes that Garrincha & co force would be better for my team, Garrincha just hit the crossbar too many times. Someone who would do his best work without the ball and let Garrincha hog it as much as he wants. Brazilian wingplay was also a bit different to Hungarian mostly because they were not used to play target man type players and the wingers just love to dribble as much as they can. Most of their crosses are cutbacks or lower crosses and most all Vava's goals were scored with feet e.g his winning goal in final etc.

Take for example Zagallo's cross here for Vava -

Also Not to forget its peak Romario of WC 94, in a performance that require Baresi to be at his very best to keep him quiet. I just don't see 2mufc0's defense being able to do it.

Edit: This is not aimed at you, your vote is fine. Go away :) !!
 
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Annahnomoss

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"Substitute Rivelino for Alexis Sanchez (Copa 2016).

Also switch koeman and Schwarzenbeck around."
 

harms

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Meh, dropping Rivelino?
And Abidal still have an arrow on him, at least he isn't running off the pitch
 

Annahnomoss

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Meh, dropping Rivelino?
And Abidal still have an arrow on him, at least he isn't running off the pitch
Blame me. I didn't get any instructions on the arrrows and he's on a phone and can't do it. No clue if this was what he wanted.
 

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I'm not the biggest fan of the Puskas inclusion in a team built around Garrincha. Not playing with Pele was sort of the reason behind that peak as he suddenly had to step up as the team carry which took him to a whole new level. I love the rest of the side and Garrincha-Zagallo is perfection and a striker upfront who doesn't need to be involved in the build up in Romario is great too.
 

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Got rid of the arrows, that's my fault because it's the first time i'm using the website. Hopefully they are fixed now.

As for subbing on Alexis, in a normal game i would keep Revelino on but i have to find a way of countering his main attacker and i need to make a change somewhere as i am behind in the score. It's a way of countering Garrincha, Alexis has a phenomenal work rate and would be able to help Abidal more at the back. He would also have the energy to attack at the same time. Attacking wise he was on top form for Chile in the COPA and was involved in the majority of their goals and won the golden ball (best player in the tournament). IMO his play style would combine well with Pele and Rossi.

The following video shows his play in the tournament, shows his great attacking play but for obvious reasons the less glamorous defensive part of his game isn't shown.