UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Honest John]

What do you think will happen with the Labour Party now? Will they go for the same stance but with someone like RLB? Or do they tack back to Blair territory? That would be the smarter move in my view but, how do they dismantle Momentum? How would they change the makeup of the Membership (where a lot of this toxic antisemitism resides). Will the party split?

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Depends where you are, my brother lives in Peebles and it always seems very pro union there. I go fishing up in the North East and the hate for Sturgeon there is palpable.

Yes. I live where the population density is. Have you seen the MP headcount by party? Peebles will not have a significant sway here. Trust me on this. I've never seen anything like it.

 

[P-Nut]

What do you think will happen with the Labour Party now? Will they go for the same stance but with someone like RLB? Or do they tack back to Blair territory? That would be the smarter move in my view but, how do they dismantle Momentum? How would they change the makeup of the Membership (where a lot of this toxic antisemitism resides). Will the party split?

I can't see them moving back towards Blair, I think they'll blame it on Brexit and Corbyn and carry on as is.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

One thing is clear, from a messaging point of view Labour need to drop the ‘tories are cnuts’ rhetoric immediately. Loads of traditional labour voters just moved over to the tories, and if labour want to win another election, they’re going to need a good chunk of them back. Telling people they’re cnuts, or even that they were duped into voting for cnuts, is going to make that impossible.

 

[Fiskey]

Do you think the homeless and poverty stricken families will be cared for under the tories?

I'm inclined to accept what has happened and move on now, so I'd like to better understand the reasons people voted for them.

I really hope so. I think that with the fact there will be a significant amount of Torys representing deprived seats this will have to happen.

 

[fergieisold]

It's really bad for those at the very bottom of society, they are generally voiceless. In a Tory reality they tend to get chewed up, spat out and forgotten about.

Absolutely, that is my one concern. But for now the Tories are the working class party. Record employment and low taxation.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes. I live where the population density is. Have you seen the MP headcount by party? Peebles will not have a significant sway here. Trust me on this. I've never seen anything like it.

Whereabouts in Glasgow are you?

As I've said I've not seen anger like it either.

 

[Pexbo]

One thing is clear, from a messaging point of view Labour need to drop the ‘tories are cnuts’ rhetoric immediately. Loads of traditional labour voters just moved over to the tories, and if labour want to win another election, they’re going to need a good chunk of them back. Telling people they’re cnuts, or even that they were duped into voting for cnuts, is going to make that impossible.

This was a second referendum by proxy. It won't be difficult to get the majority of those single issue voters back once Brexit is done and dusted and questions are asked around other areas. I'd bet good money that the majority of those swing votes, if you said to them "The Tories are cnuts" they will take zero offence and reply "I know but they're going to get Brexit done". In a few years time that will just be "I know".

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Whereabouts in Glasgow are you?

As I've said I've not seen anger like it either.

On Hope St right now. Shawlands this morning. West End last night.

 

[Fiskey]

Would you agree with the idea that under the last 9 years of Tory government life has become harder for those at the lower end of society? Including rise in levels of child poverty, homelessness and increased stress on the NHS?

Yes, life has clearly gotten more difficult. I believe austerity had to happen, as we weren't as rich a country as we thought we were, but there should have been a greater contingency budget put aside to help those who were struggling.

 

[Fiskey]

Yes. I live where the population density is. Have you seen the MP headcount by party? Peebles will not have a significant sway here. Trust me on this. I've never seen anything like it.

SNP still only have 45% of the vote, which is the same that voted for independence last time. As we've seen in this thread and on Twitter, people who are angry are usually louder. However you need the silent majority to win an election/referendum.

 

[Vault Dweller]

On Hope St right now. Shawlands this morning. West End last night.

I was Uddingston last night and Bothwell St this morning. I've seen people angry before but nothing like today.

 

[Vault Dweller]

SNP still only have 45% of the vote, which is the same that voted for independence last time. As we've seen in this thread and on Twitter, people who are angry are usually louder. However you need the silent majority to win an election/referendum.

I genuinely believe though, after everything that has happened since the Scottish referendum, if you were to offer the choice again it would be a resounding Leave victory.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

SNP still only have 45% of the vote, which is the same that voted for independence last time. As we've seen in this thread and on Twitter, people who are angry are usually louder. However you need the silent majority to win an election/referendum.

Jesus man, you're making the same mistake Labour just did. You have no idea what it's like up here right now. England is culturally and politically seen as a foreign country. It's heartbreaking.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

What do you think will happen with the Labour Party now? Will they go for the same stance but with someone like RLB? Or do they tack back to Blair territory? That would be the smarter move in my view but, how do they dismantle Momentum? How would they change the makeup of the Membership (where a lot of this toxic antisemitism resides). Will the party split?

Well you're looking at politics like it's a game of simply winning and losing when in (an admittedly idealistic version of) reality, political parties should be looking to improve the quality of people's lives. Therein lies the Catch 22 for Labour. They've put forward a manifesto in this election that promised to do just that and it was rejected. If it shifts further right and sacrifices those principles for votes then really what is the point other than winning?

 

[VeevaVee]

One thing is clear, from a messaging point of view Labour need to drop the ‘tories are cnuts’ rhetoric immediately. Loads of traditional labour voters just moved over to the tories, and if labour want to win another election, they’re going to need a good chunk of them back. Telling people they’re cnuts, or even that they were duped into voting for cnuts, is going to make that impossible.

Agreed, but for a little bit, let's call them what they are

 

[Ubik]

I genuinely believe though, after everything that has happened since the Scottish referendum, if you were to offer the choice again it would be a resounding Leave victory.

I think their message is a lot simpler now than in 2014 as well, when it was quite believable that they'd be able to hold the balance of power with a minority Labour government.

 

[FigmentOfYerImagination]

Hmmm... predicted yesterday that all major parties would see their leadership implode within a year or two (Tories) due to failure of making good on his promises, post-election (Labour) due to a significant seat loss to both Leavers and Remainers or at the next elections (Lib Dems) due to not doing good enough and a failed strategy. Didn't expect Jo Swinson to lose her seat. But given the high hopes and subsequent desillusionment she would have been replaced anyway. Still shame that an increase in votes by 4% loses you a seat in this system and only helped to split the vote.

A tyranny of the large minority system remains such a stupid and demonstrably undemocratic idea.

So how long till Corbyn buggers off? His period of reflection call seems to be a move to hang on as long as possible to try and get one of his besties to replace him. But he can't possibly claim this result means Labour should continue in his policy direction as it clearly does not have the support.

 

[Fiskey]

Jesus man, you're making the same mistake Labour just did. You have no idea what it's like up here right now. England is culturally and politically seen as a foreign country. It's heartbreaking.

In Glasgow I imagine that would definitely be true, but that's similar to London. Any vote would be close, as I say I would hope Scotland would chose to remain. If I were Boris I would offer the SNP a referendum on the basis there isn't another for 25 years.

 

[VeevaVee]

Regardless of what people believe is the truth the country has (including the working class) given the clear signal that actually, things aren’t so bad at the moment.

They are bad though, and they'll get worse. They've given the signal that they don't want to make things better for others, even if it would also make things better for themselves. They've given the signal that they didn't want to let what they now see as the opposition, largely due to Brexit, get a win, even if they win in life too. They've given the signal that not letting people have something better is more important than anything else. It's a deep rooted bitterness, because they've been told their views on race, immigration, helping people, taxing rich people etc. are wrong for so long. That is why, in my opinion, so many working class people voted Tory.

 

[Raven]

Whether that is the case or not elswhere, it clearly is not the way the people of Britain see it. The 3 previous referendums held in the UK in my lifetime have all been honoured or implemented. This one should be too.

The difference being that Brexit was sold on a platform of lies with a non defined option of leave. Oh and of course the potential Russian interference which I'm sure now will disappear entirely.

 

[Redlambs]

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This rant is absolutely spot on.

feck off Corbyn, you dithering fool. And his fans on here (and everywhere else) need to take their heads out their arses and stop alienating and insulting everyone who refused to drink the Momentum Kool Aid. Because this is what that mindset gets you. A bitch-slapping from one of the most inept Conservative leaders in living memory. FFS.

Yep, utter humiliation.

But...but...but...Brexit! Media!

It's amazing how some still haven't haven't got wise and the excuses are still flowing this morning. Corbyn, his accolytes and defenders all need to feck off right now. Because they've just been completely and utterly battered by Boris fecking Johson. A man who supposedly hid in a fridge on Election day, and we all believed he would have.

 

[Jippy]

Labour ran a negative smear and scare campaign all the way through and has been shown in previous elections that it just doesn't work.

Endless Twatter posts, this one did that, that one did this, they're selling the NHS, everyone's going to die.

I expected Corbyn with his army of cheerleaders to do better than that.

In my constituency, there was a huge swing to LibDem, but it was never going to overhaul such a huge majority. Their campaign was was nothing and they have no politicians of any substance or with anything about them.

So did the Tories, aided and abetted by the Sun, Tel, Times, DM and Express every single day.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Jesus man, you're making the same mistake Labour just did. You have no idea what it's like up here right now. England is culturally and politically seen as a foreign country. It's heartbreaking.

I used to live in England, for nearly 15 years and all the way through my teens. I'm heartbroken as you say for the disparity between the place I was born and live now, and a place I consider my second home with many best friends there. Been confused a lot of this morning and was upset last night.

I think their message is a lot simpler now than in 2014 as well, when it was quite believable that they'd be able to hold the balance of power with a minority Labour government.

Agreed. All Nicola has to say if granted another referendum, is; Do you really want more of the last 5 years?

 

[Fiskey]

Well you're looking at politics like it's a game of simply winning and losing when in (an admittedly idealistic version of) reality, political parties should be looking to improve the quality of people's lives. Therein lies the Catch 22 for Labour. They've put forward a manifesto in this election that promised to do just that and it was rejected. If it shifts further right and sacrifices those principles for votes then really what is the point other than winning?

You need to convince people that a program is deliverable for what you say it will cost. I don't think there was a cat in hells chance the Labour manifesto was deliverable for what they said it would cost.

Coming up with ideas that people will like is the easy bit. Convincing people that the country can afford it and your party is competent enough to deliver it is the difficult bit.

 

[lynchie]

So how long till Corbyn buggers off? His period of reflection call seems to be a move to hang on as long as possible to try and get one of his besties to replace him. But he can't possibly claim this result means Labour should continue in his policy direction as it clearly does not have the support.

Looks like that is exactly the plan. Cling on to power, promote one of his loyalists, and try to manage a smooth transition. The sort of thing that a successful leader could do, not the worst leader of the Labour party since the 30s.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

In Glasgow I imagine that would definitely be true, but that's similar to London. Any vote would be close, as I say I would hope Scotland would chose to remain. If I were Boris I would offer the SNP a referendum on the basis there isn't another for 25 years.

If there were a ref today, it's over.
I'm sitting on a conference call with people all over Scotland. The country is devastated.
I'm sure it all seems a pragmatic decision we'll on move on from as you sit amongst your dreaming spires but it is not good here.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I used to live in England, for nearly 15 years and all the way through my teens. I'm heartbroken as you say for the disparity between the place I was born and live now, and a place I consider my second home with many best friends there. Been confused a lot of this morning and was upset last night.

I also lived in England for many years. Genuinely upset.

 

[Havak]

Did anyone really think the result was going to be much different? Maybe not quite as much of a battering, but I would've put all my money on a very clear Conservative victory...

 

[Jacko21]

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This rant is absolutely spot on.

feck off Corbyn, you dithering fool. And his fans on here (and everywhere else) need to take their heads out their arses and stop alienating and insulting everyone who refused to drink the Momentum Kool Aid. Because this is what that mindset gets you. A bitch-slapping from one of the most inept Conservative leaders in living memory. FFS.

In a nutshell.

Unsurprisingly, some are in denial this morning (and perhaps privately have been for months).

But it is the first stage of grief after all.

 

[sebsheep]

Yes, life has clearly gotten more difficult. I believe austerity had to happen, as we weren't as rich a country as we thought we were, but there should have been a greater contingency budget put aside to help those who were struggling.

Should it really come as a surprise then that the party that is putting vulnerable at risk and people who vote for them end up with so much negativity directed at them?
Interesting point about austerity because I saw a few times in the debates that Labour candidates would say austerity was a political decision to a Tory candidate and they would not even bother to deny it. The poor ended up worse off under austerity and yet rich people were making more money and get tax cuts, how does that work?

 

[Redlambs]

Did anyone really think the result was going to be much different? Maybe not quite as much of a battering, but I would've put all my money on a very clear Conservative victory...

It's the manner of it, yes.

Turns out Labour were in quite the self deluded bubble all along. Many seem to be still sitting in it, sheltering themselves behind endless facts and figures all the while ignoring the only one fact that really matters right now.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I also lived in England for many years. Genuinely upset.

I feel you, brother / sister. I love the North East of England due to connections I have there, feck this.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Jesus man, you're making the same mistake Labour just did. You have no idea what it's like up here right now. England is culturally and politically seen as a foreign country. It's heartbreaking.

The polls on Independence don't really back that up though do they? Seem pretty much consistent at roughly 50/50 split. It will be interesting to see what the next one shows.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

You need to convince people that a program is deliverable for what you say it will cost. I don't think there was a cat in hells chance the Labour manifesto was deliverable for what they said it would cost.

Coming up with ideas that people will like is the easy bit. Convincing people that the country can afford it and your party is competent enough to deliver it is the difficult bit.

In your opinion. Many others more informed would respectfully disagree. But we'll never know now will be and let's be honest you've just admitted there that Labour can't win can they...

Put forward a manifesto that sets out to improve social care, improve education, tackle poverty, tackle climate change = "unicorns mate"

Lay out the facts of the damage done to the country by 10 years of Tory rule = "stop running such a negative campaign"

 

[Drifter]

What do you think will happen with the Labour Party now? Will they go for the same stance but with someone like RLB? Or do they tack back to Blair territory? That would be the smarter move in my view but, how do they dismantle Momentum? How would they change the makeup of the Membership (where a lot of this toxic antisemitism resides). Will the party split?

Think they will stay the same . A majority of members are of the left and going back to centrism isn't going to work .Just look at the Lib Dems and Miliband.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

With this election British people deserve everything bad that will happen to them in the coming years, starting with Scotish Independence, a bad brexit deal, spike in drugs prices due to trade deal with US, etc

Generalising much? I didnt vote for that racist tax dodging cnut and nor did my family or most of my friends, but we deserve everything that will happen, thanks alot.

 

[Fiskey]

Should it really come as a surprise then that the party that is putting vulnerable at risk and people who vote for them end up with so much negativity directed at them?
Interesting point about austerity because I saw a few times in the debates that Labour candidates would say austerity was a political decision to a Tory candidate and they would not even bother to deny it. The poor ended up worse off under austerity and yet rich people were making more money and get tax cuts, how does that work?

I think the Tory candidates were all told not to engage, just focus on investment, it was a battle Cameron and Osbourne won and didn't need to be re fought.

In a capitalist society, people earning money is a great thing. Money is the reward people get for selling their labour in a way that benefits everyone. High earners are not necessarily the rich, and the top 1% of earners already pay 33% of the income tax. As previously discussed in this thread we want these people to keep doing what they are doing, by the fact they are paid a lot society is showing us their skill is highly valuable.

Could we also have taxed the rich more. Yes, I'm very in favour of 2nd home taxes, inheritance taxes etc. Taxing income heavily though is hugely counter productive. I think that income is already taxed too much.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Generalising much? I didnt vote for that racist tax dodging cnut and nor did my family or most of my friends, but we deserve everything that will happen, thanks alot.

Yea, it's statements like that which are really unnecessary. If you didn't vote for it, why do you deserve it?

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Think they will stay the same . A majority of members are of the left and going back to blairism isn't going to work .Just look at the Lib Dems.

Exactly. Lib Dems represented centrism and they were roundly rejected. Have people actually spoken to any working class ex Labour voters? Particularly the older ones. I can tell you as someone that has, they put a huge amount of blame on the state of this country on Blair's Labour.