UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Redlambs]

Generalising much? I didnt vote for that racist tax dodging cnut and nor did my family or most of my friends, but we deserve everything that will happen, thanks alot.

Ignore these idiots mate, it's not worth your time.

In your opinion. Many others more informed would respectfully disagree. But we'll never know now will be and let's be honest you've just admitted there that Labour can't win can they...

Put forward a manifesto that sets out to improve social care, improve education, tackle poverty, tackle climate change = "unicorns mate"

Lay out the facts of the damage done to the country by 10 years of Tory rule = "stop running such a negative campaign"

Yep, I agree it's weird saying Labour ran a negative campaign. Their support on the other hand, easily the most toxic to the other side. Thing is, I don't even blame them, it's anger at what they are seeing.

But it needs to stop and all that anger and energy needs focusing on the people within Labour who have fecked this up and rebuilding. Because without that, we are stuck with the Tories for much longer than 5 years.

 

[Fiskey]

In your opinion. Many others more informed would respectfully disagree. But we'll never know now will be and let's be honest you've just admitted there that Labour can't win can they...

Put forward a manifesto that sets out to improve social care, improve education, tackle poverty, tackle climate change = "unicorns mate"

Lay out the facts of the damage done to the country by 10 years of Tory rule = "stop running such a negative campaign"

This is fine but be honest about how you will pay for it. You won't be able to pay for it and everything else by slightly raising taxes on the top 5% of earners and raising corporation tax, both of which I think would be damaging to the country anyway.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Quite telling that even in this thread there were people saying that they literally couldn't live through another 5 years of this government (I wanted to comment on that post but didn't really know what to say) and by contrast after the exit poll came out, others revelling in the money they've made from it or whinging that their 'investments' had taken a hit.

 

[Rajma]

SNP still only have 45% of the vote, which is the same that voted for independence last time. As we've seen in this thread and on Twitter, people who are angry are usually louder. However you need the silent majority to win an election/referendum.

Last time around they started off with 13% support in polls and the referendum ended up 45/55 at the end, I would think having a starting point of around 45-50% in support for independence is a good place to be. It all unfolded during my living years down there and I'm fairly confident after the recent set of events it would be a clear win next time around.

 

[Fiskey]

Exactly. Lib Dems represented centrism and they were roundly rejected. Have people actually spoken to any working class ex Labour voters? Particularly the older ones. I can tell you as someone that has, they put a huge amount of blame on the state of this country on Blair's Labour.

I have as well, but isn't the blame they lay at Blair's door largely immigration?

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Anyway. Someone sent me this earlier which gave me a chuckle...

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[CassiusClaymore]

I have as well, but isn't the blame they lay at Blair's door largely immigration?

Yes it is.

 

[Redlambs]

Exactly. Lib Dems represented centrism and they were roundly rejected. Have people actually spoken to any working class ex Labour voters? Particularly the older ones. I can tell you as someone that has, they put a huge amount of blame on the state of this country on Blair's Labour.

Why does it have to always resort to going back to Blairism though?

Corbyn was seen, among other things, as too far right and untrustworthy. So why not get people in charge who can bridge that gap without going too far back to the centre? But of course, that is not going to happen, for some baffling reason people still back Momentum and they are clinging on to the power.

And nothing changes. The next couple of years will be about the hope Boris fecks brexit and gives Labour a chance again, but that's just not going to happen is it? Sure he'll feck it, but the excuses will flow and idiots will buy them. Meanwhile Labour will be sitting there doing nothing. Reflection, my arse.

 

[Ubik]

Another thing about indyref2 - do Tories actually care if Scotland goes now? They're in this for power and they'll vastly increase their effective majority without it.

 

[Denis' cuff]

51% lazy cnuts who spend 24/7 on here

Same lazy cnuts who couldn't be bothered getting off their arses to vote remain

Get a worthwhile life other than "playing the system" and playing on the Internet

Boris.

Ole.

 

[Redlambs]

I have as well, but isn't the blame they lay at Blair's door largely immigration?

It is.

And they were reckless with it, and it had a huge knock on effect ever since.

 

[Fiskey]

Yes it is.

And that's a point I have sympathy with. However I think that means there is still a place for a quite centre left party that is tough on immigration and crime. Ed Milliband was trying to go that way but didn't have the personality to pull it off.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Why does it have to always resort to going back to Blairism though?

Corbyn was seen, among other things, as too far right and untrustworthy. So why not get people in charge who can bridge that gap without going too far back to the centre? But of course, that is not going to happen, for some baffling reason people still back Momentum and they are clinging on to the power.

And nothing changes. The next couple of years will be about the hope Boris fecks brexit and gives Labour a chance again, but that's just not going to happen is it? Sure he'll feck it, but the excuses will flow and idiots will buy them. Meanwhile Labour will be sitting there doing nothing. Reflection, my arse.

Hey don't shoot the messenger.

 

[P-Nut]

I really hope so. I think that with the fact there will be a significant amount of Torys representing deprived seats this will have to happen.

Despite the fact we've just seen, the lib dems and Labour (in the eyes of some) actively go against their constituencies desire to leave?

The one aspect I can see making sense, is that he doesn't have to listen to the ERG as much with such a large majority, but his principles and views prior to being pm makes me fear he's actually one of them, rather than just using them.

 

[Cascarino]

I genuinely believe though, after everything that has happened since the Scottish referendum, if you were to offer the choice again it would be a resounding Leave victory.

Jesus man, you're making the same mistake Labour just did. You have no idea what it's like up here right now. England is culturally and politically seen as a foreign country. It's heartbreaking.

Spoiler

 

[Fiskey]

Another thing about indyref2 - do Tories actually care if Scotland goes now? They're in this for power and they'll vastly increase their effective majority without it.

I think a lot don't care, but there are also a massive amount of small "c" romantic conservatives, that would hate to see the Union split.

 

[sebsheep]

I think the Tory candidates were all told not to engage, just focus on investment, it was a battle Cameron and Osbourne won and didn't need to be re fought.

In a capitalist society, people earning money is a great thing. Money is the reward people get for selling their labour in a way that benefits everyone. High earners are not necessarily the rich, and the top 1% of earners already pay 33% of the income tax. As previously discussed in this thread we want these people to keep doing what they are doing, by the fact they are paid a lot society is showing us their skill is highly valuable.

Could we also have taxed the rich more. Yes, I'm very in favour of 2nd home taxes, inheritance taxes etc. Taxing income heavily though is hugely counter productive. I think that income is already taxed too much.

A battle they'd already won? We've seen the disproportionate effects it's had the people lower down the economical scale, how does that not need to be explained?
Yes in capitalism it sort of works like that, but we've seen much higher tax rates historically in this country alone and still had significant growth. The conversation has just shifted bit by bit to where we are today so people don't think you can raise income tax for those at the top, meanwhile we watch income inequality grow....

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The world is a cold dark place.

 

[Flying high]

It is.

And they were reckless with it, and it had a huge knock on effect ever since.

I'm no Blair fan. But at least he put in place a large range of measures to ease the impact of immigration. The tories tore it all up at the same time as blaming immigration levels for everything wrong with the country.

 

[Siorac]

Another thing about indyref2 - do Tories actually care if Scotland goes now? They're in this for power and they'll vastly increase their effective majority without it.

Yeah I don't quite get why they'd refuse. Political analysts - well the ones I read today - say Johnson will likely refuse Sturgeon's request but why? They will rule the rest of the UK pretty much uncontested.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Quite telling that even in this thread there were people saying that they literally couldn't live through another 5 years of this government (I wanted to comment on that post but didn't really know what to say) and by contrast after the exit poll came out, others revelling in the money they've made from it or whinging that their 'investments' had taken a hit.

Yep one poster said he would soon be on the list of people on the suicide list (if you’re reading this please, please don’t be).

 

[CassiusClaymore]

And that's a point I have sympathy with. However I think that means there is still a place for a quite centre left party that is tough on immigration and crime. Ed Milliband was trying to go that way but didn't have the personality to pull it off.

Yeah he ate that bacon sandwich all funny and his Dad hated Britain. Actually what his Dad wrote as a 17 year old has probably never been more pertinent...

''The Englishman is a rabid nationalist. They are perhaps the most nationalist people in the world … you sometimes want them almost to lose (the war) to show them how things are. They have the greatest contempt for the continent … To lose their empire would be the worst possible humiliation.''

Spooky.

 

[Redlambs]

Hey don't shoot the messenger.

You should burn the message then.

 

[Wibble]

Agreed on Ireland, although I can see some real fightback from the Unionists so it should be handled gently. As a Scot I would like Scotland to stay.

All such issues need handling gently. Ireland doubly so as Unionist/Protestants matter whatever the past. It would be a great solution for all if we saw a concensus based transition to a united Ireland imo.

 

[Fiskey]

A battle they'd already won? We've seen the disproportionate effects it's had the people lower down the economical scale, how does that not need to be explained?
Yes in capitalism it sort of works like that, but we've seen much higher tax rates historically in this country alone and still had significant growth. The conversation has just shifted bit by bit to where we are today so people don't think you can raise income tax for those at the top, meanwhile we watch income inequality grow....

A battle they've already won politically. Some people never agreed, but enough did to have made the Conservatives the largest party in each of the last four elections.

I disagree that we've seen higher tax rates historically and significant growth. Higher personal tax rates have coincided with some of the most economically troubling times in this country, like in the 70s, Dennis Healy and "taxing the rich until the pip squeaks".

For me, income inequality is absolutely fine, so long as the minimum standard is high enough. That is where the conservative government of the past 9 years has failed, and I hope they can fix it.

 

[Redlambs]

I'm no Blair fan. But at least he put in place a large range of measures to ease the impact of immigration. The tories tore it all up at the same time as blaming immigration levels for everything wrong with the country.

He didn't do enough, they underestimated the impact by a long way. You are of course correct though, the tories took thag and twisted it and now fools blame immigrants for everything.

But that's for another day.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

"Any British election in which a traditional leftwing party competes with a traditional rightwing party, will have the traditional result" - Tony Blair, a long time ago

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[sebsheep]

Can't imagine New Labour's university tuition fee introduction and how it's ended up today goes down well with certain areas either.

 

[Fiskey]

Yeah he ate that bacon sandwich all funny and his Dad hated Britain. Actually what his Dad wrote as a 17 year old has probably never been more pertinent...

''The Englishman is a rabid nationalist. They are perhaps the most nationalist people in the world … you sometimes want them almost to lose (the war) to show them how things are. They have the greatest contempt for the continent … To lose their empire would be the worst possible humiliation.''

Spooky.

Its great analysis. The only thing is Daddy Milliband felt nationalism (patriotism?) was a bad thing, whereas I don't think it is.

 

[Redlambs]

"Any British election in which a traditional leftwing party competes with a traditional rightwing party, will have the traditional result" - Tony Blair, a long time ago

"He should feck off and vote Tory!"

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Another thing about indyref2 - do Tories actually care if Scotland goes now? They're in this for power and they'll vastly increase their effective majority without it.

I'm not really sure why there's opposition (apart from Labour) about Scotland leaving. 400000 of their jobs are completely internal market dependent and under Boris's Brexit plan many of them will relocate to the remaining UK, including most of their banking sector. Is it just a GDP and prestige thing people are worried about?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Its great analysis. The only thing is Daddy Milliband felt nationalism (patriotism?) was a bad thing, whereas I don't think it is.

Nationalism is definitely a bad thing if you start having contempt for others. Patrotism isn't if it is used appropriately e.g. you can have pride in your country and still think other countries are great too.

 

[Drifter]

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Delighted for Chuka.

 

[Fiskey]

Nationalism is definitely a bad thing if you start having contempt for others. Patrotism isn't if it is used appropriately e.g. you can have pride in your country and still think other countries are great too.

Agreed.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

"He should feck off and vote Tory!"

That sort of line was cringey when Fergie told fans to feck off and support Chelsea. It's heck of a lot worse when telling potential voters.

 

[Ady87]

Quite telling that even in this thread there were people saying that they literally couldn't live through another 5 years of this government (I wanted to comment on that post but didn't really know what to say) and by contrast after the exit poll came out, others revelling in the money they've made from it or whinging that their 'investments' had taken a hit.

Shares in the company I work for are up 15p today and you can spot the smug ones a mile off.

I honestly don't know what Labour need to offer to tackle inequality and position it in a way that modern day voters don't think is airy fairy. I think Corbyn should and will go, i'm just nervous about the next leader. Rightly or wrongly I think it needs to be a Burnham/Starmer type of person, which frustrates me because it doesn't matter if they're the best person for the job necessarily.

A lot of my friends conducted some of those anonymous tests that set out to demonstrate whose policies you like and Labour didn't seem to feature at the top of any of the results and I live in a Labour stronghold. Is it really the Labour party if it moves to try and cater for these people if doing so means they abandon what I feel like they've always been about?

I'm working class but I do well for myself and wonder why I put myself through this when I look at people that aren't, staring back at me holding two fingers up, or that's how it feels.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Spoiler

Ymunwch â ni, fy mrodyr Celtaidd

 

[fergieisold]

They are bad though, and they'll get worse. They've given the signal that they don't want to make things better for others, even if it would also make things better for themselves. They've given the signal that they didn't want to let what they now see as the opposition, largely due to Brexit, get a win, even if they win in life too. They've given the signal that not letting people have something better is more important than anything else. It's a deep rooted bitterness, because they've been told their views on race, immigration, helping people, taxing rich people etc. are wrong for so long. That is why, in my opinion, so many working class people voted Tory.

But peoples experience on the ground clearly isn't that things are bad. At least not the majority of people anyway and that includes the perceived poor working class.

 

[redshaw]

Corbyn, McDonnell are the same people, with the same things said about them who got 262 in 2017, key difference is in 2017 they were honouring Brexit, in 2019 they've brought remain back on the table and looking at these Labour Leave areas, the Labour leavers in these once lifelong strongholds have been pretty incensed by it. They weren't going win but they've torpedoed the base they stood on.

For Scotland, they'll have to wait until we see what the next phase of the talks result in. SNP will push for indyref now but it only makes sense for the Scottish people to vote to leave or stay knowing what the completed Brexit is which could be 2-3 years away.