United and these crazy contracts

SAred

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Is United the biggest name in British Football, the most successful club in British Football, and one of the biggest names in World football only way to get players to the club is by offering crazy money and just plan insane contracts.
United have a whole bunch of deadwood that would do okay in lower Premiership Teams but can not move them for any money due to the wages being paid. Surely United's pulling power must count for something not just the
big pay cheque, surely its got to change heard rumors that this Porto Left Back is being offered 4 times his wages to join United. Looks like Ed is not learning.
 
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Gopher Brown

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Is United the biggest name in British Football, the most successful club in British Football, one of the biggest names in World football only way to get players to the club is by offering crazy money and just plan insane contracts.
United have a whole bunch of deadwood that would do okay in lower Premiership Teams but can not move them for any money due to the wages being paid. Surely United's pulling power must count for something not just the
big pay cheque. Surely its got to change heard rumors that this Porto Left Back is being offered 4 times his wages to join United. Looks like Ed is not learning.
I feel like the hierarchy at the club have read the first chapter Soccernomics where it says wage spending is usually the biggest indicator of a club’s success and therefore made sure we pay our mediocre squad players inflated wages in the hope that somehow it’ll all work out.

Spoiler - it won’t.
 

finneh

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I said the below in the Jota thread which seems to fit better here:

It's definitely the high wages. We've had a "socialist" wage policy for years though in truth; whereby backup and squad players are remunerated far greater than their abilities. I assume it was a mechanism to ensure squad harmony; Fergie believing that the highest earner being paid several times more than another squad player would sow discontent. Arsenal had a similar policy under Wenger in truth with younger squad players on comparatively high salaries.

I think in the modern game this is outdated though. Players on large contracts comparative to their abilities/contribution are happy to spend years on the bench and clubs lower down the league can't upset their squad harmony by bringing in players like Lingard on £100k a week (even if he were on a free).

If Lingard, Jones, Rojo and Smalling were earning around £35-40k per week (a pretty fair salary) I've no doubt we'd see 8 figure bids for all of them. The fact that they are paid similarly to the likes of Wijnaldum and Sissoko whilst being far less talented means we're going to struggle to sell.
 

DomesticTadpole

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The problems we are having buying and selling during the pandemic you would have thought would lead to a rethink of how we deal with contracts etc. I wouldn't bet on it though.
 

Bestie07

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I think there is a fear within the hierarchy of letting players go and seeing them achieve success elsewhere. This results in players being awarded contracts disproportionate to their levels of ability. This is what has resulted in us providing huge contracts to the likes of Jones, Rojo, Lingard, Rooney, De Gea and now Henderson. We need to learn to be okay with letting players go when the time and money are right.
 

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This needs a thread ? Surely we all realized Glazers and Ed Woodward ruined the club. After 2008 we should've been a big, stable club like Real, Bayern etc... But things has gone downhill ever since. Soon the big fanbase won't be able to save this club anymore and Glazers will sell us to Saudi dictators.
 

gajender

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Do people actually believe the crazy figures bandied about United players perfect example is Lingard when the first reports of his contact extension came around it was supposed to be 50k then it become 75k and now commonly held belief is that he is on around 100k.
Ps I am not arguing we don't overpay some of our players but most of the figures seem to be plucked out of thin air .
 

DomesticTadpole

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I think there is a fear within the hierarchy of letting players go and seeing them achieve success elsewhere. This results in players being awarded contracts disproportionate to their levels of ability. This is what has resulted in us providing huge contracts to the likes of Jones, Rojo, Lingard, Rooney, De Gea and now Henderson. We need to learn to be okay with letting players go when the time and money are right.
If they think those three are going to light up the footballing world elsewhere it sums up why we are in trouble. Complete lack of judgement.
 

Bestie07

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If they think those three are going to light up the footballing world elsewhere it sums up why we are in trouble. Complete lack of judgement.
To be fair all three had a good few months of form, specially Lingard and Rojo before they were awarded their latest contracts.

It's simple really, don't hand out contracts that may make the players difficult to shift. If the players don't like the terms being offered, then make them available for transfer and they can get the contracts they desire from other clubs.
 

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There’s no way the decisions are taken based on anything other than accounting/finance.

“Can player x contribute to the squad? Yes (at the time of asking that would be a reasonable response)

Well if we let him leave on a free we’ll need to replace him and that will cost £15m plus £50k a week over 4 years = £25.4million over 4 years.

If we offer him £100k a week then that only costs £20.8million over 4 years

Ok that saves nearly £5million that we can trouser between us, let’s do that then.”
 

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You have to rewind back to March 2014 and think about how the club looked at that point. The huge pulling power of playing for SAF had gone, as had a number of players from the dressing room which, as a player yourself, you’d be keen to be alongside. Moyes was/had been a disaster and it was clear to all that we were in a tailspin, with clueless drivers at the wheel. And we panicked. So yes, I think at that point, the only way we could actually secure ‘top talent’ was to appease their fears by over compensation them through lucrative contracts. Add that to also picking the wrong players (and managers) at the same time and we compounded the issue, and are still paying for it now.
 
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Bestie07

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There’s no way the decisions are taken based on anything other than accounting/finance.

“Can player x contribute to the squad? Yes (at the time of asking that would be a reasonable response)

Well if we let him leave on a free we’ll need to replace him and that will cost £15m plus £50k a week over 4 years = £25.4million over 4 years.

If we offer him £100k a week then that only costs £20.8million over 4 years

Ok that saves nearly £5million that we can trouser between us, let’s do that then.”
We have to let players walk for free because of these huge contracts in the first place! If we are careful with player contracts, we can expect money coming in through player sales as well.
 

Lee1001

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Just to correct the OP for accuracy Man Utd aren’t the most successful club in England.
 

DomesticTadpole

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To be fair all three had a good few months of form, specially Lingard and Rojo before they were awarded their latest contracts.

It's simple really, don't hand out contracts that may make the players difficult to shift. If the players don't like the terms being offered, then make them available for transfer and they can get the contracts they desire from other clubs.
It also shows it doesn't take much to get a contract if a few months of form is enough. Years of performances earn you good contracts not a few months. We are not ruthless enough, with players or managers. We let it ramble on with managers until untold damage is done and players it is easier to just throw stupid contracts out there than actually look for better options. We are stuck in a mediocrity mire.
 

Skills

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It's the lack of Sporting Director/Director of football.

Our managers/coaches have their favourites who use that position to rinse the club. If you have a sporting director who's job is to constantly evaluate the cost benefit of each player in the squad, then you can't be held hostage as much.
 

DomesticTadpole

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It's the lack of Sporting Director/Director of football.

Our managers/coaches have their favourites who use that position to rinse the club. If you have a sporting director who's job is to constantly evaluate the cost benefit of each player in the squad, then you can't be held hostage as much.
Exactly. It is spiraling out of control. We need better players, yet they look at the money our average players get and feel justified to ask for more than them. This needs to stop.
 

Josep Dowling

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You have to rewind back to March 2014 and think about how the club looked at that point. The huge pulling power of playing for SAF had gone, as had a number of players from the dressing room which, as a player yourself, you’d be keen to be alongside. Moyes was/had been a disaster and it was clear to all that we were in a tailspin, with clueless drivers at the wheel. And we panicked. So yes, I think at that point, the only way we could actually secure ‘top talent’ was to appease their fears by over compensation them through lucrative contracts. Add that to also picking the wrong players (and managers) at the same time and we compounded the issue, and are still paying for it now.
This is a very valid point. To add to that not just new signings but also any players with recent contract extensions. The agents acting for their client knew we were desperate to keep players, hence the likes of Martial, Rashford and Shaw all got mega new contracts. In reality all 3 players have achieved little success at this club comparative to the likes of City and Liverpool.

This doesn’t mitigate the mess of Phil Jones’ contract extension. We knew we needed to get rid of a CB as we had 6 on the books. Jones signed his contract in around March I believe then 3 months later we were looking to get rid of a CB. The only one we could get rid of was Smalling on loan.
 

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But it’s hard to stop this trend unless we go for young players or average players. Let’s say we want to buy Sancho, if we offer him 250K, other players like Pogba, Martial and Rashford would want similar wages (assuming they aren’t on it already); and it’s the same the other way as well, if Rashford is earning 250K, Sancho would want at least that or more.
 

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Utd need to put a stop to this practice of offering stupid contracts, otherwise the wages bill will put the club in serious financial trouble.
We are already being squeezed as a result of Covid and the expected loss of around £140 m in match day income and merchandising etc.
There’s also the risk that sponsorship income is going to take a hit in the next few years.

The fans are not going to like the fact that we will have to walk away from signing players like Sancho, or other names who’s agents will demand these mega deals, but unless Utd get a grip on this issue, we’re not going to make up ground on City and Liverpool.
 

Eugenius

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Wages have gone up across the board in football. Teams like West Ham are / were paying £100k a week for players like Wilshere and Arnautovic. Grealish is now apparently on £125k a week at Villa.

So it's not necessarily the wages themselves. It's more that we have too many squad players that haven't played consistently well for a long time.
 

#07

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It wasn't even six weeks ago that the CAF was full of threads about Barcelona, how Barcelona can rebuild, how Barcelona is badly run...

...As someone who stuck their two pennies into those discussions I can say without a hint of irony: Life comes at you fast.

As bad as Bartomeu is (and he's bad) he's handing out free transfers left, right and centre for players who won't move Barcelona forward. Some of those players are title winners with international pedigree like Vidal. Others he's booting out for nominal fees, like Rakitic and Suarez, who have won the treble.

Barcelona recognise that their wage bill is a drag on bringing in new players and moving forward, so they're addressing it.

Whereas here we are hoping against hope that someone is going to be stupid enough to slap £10-20m on the table for players we renewed. Isn't the definition of madness doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? If you've tried selling these players multiple transfer windows on the trot and nobody's bitten, why not think these players can't be sold and we just need to get rid?
 

Leftback99

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I think the timing of the new contracts has played a big part.

We've let too many players get within a year of leaving for nothing giving them all the power and we've panicked into giving them well above their market rate. De Gea a prime example. Any Pogba renewal is going to be the same.

We need to be ruthless well before they get to a year left and hold the cards, either sign at around market rate or be sold 2 years away from the expiry.

On the other hand there is a lot of 'pay whatever it takes' with new signings etc. on here. You can't have it both ways.
 

JPRouve

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There’s no way the decisions are taken based on anything other than accounting/finance.

“Can player x contribute to the squad? Yes (at the time of asking that would be a reasonable response)

Well if we let him leave on a free we’ll need to replace him and that will cost £15m plus £50k a week over 4 years = £25.4million over 4 years.

If we offer him £100k a week then that only costs £20.8million over 4 years

Ok that saves nearly £5million that we can trouser between us, let’s do that then.”
That would be a good theory if money left the club that way but it doesn't. The sad thing is that we add to the wage bill and continue to spend on transfer fees, there is no accounting/finance explanation, just incompetence. Also for the most part we are talking about players that do not contribute, the likes of Jones, Rojo, Mata. Last season Mata played 752 minutes in the PL, you replace that type of players with the academy, that's where you are supposed to get fringe players.
 

InLevyITrust

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I think its more the number of players you have who are on first team wages and nowhere near the first team

Rojo - £4 Million a year
Jones - £4 Million a year
Smalling - £3.5M a year
Dalot - £1.3M a year
Mata Pereira - £1.5M a year
Linegard - £4 a year

Nearly £15M a year on players who aren't in the first team plans
 

meninred

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5 years for jones
3 years for matic
2 years for mata

etc
 
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Santos J

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The fact that the article said "almost 4 times his wage" is obviously trying to just cause a stir. We have a wage structure, as do most clubs, where players in each 'group' will be paid the same amount e.g. the first contract for close to first team squad players will be around 70k p/w which is what we're apparently offering Telles. It's really not a crazy amount for the level of player and it's probably average wage for a top team squad players, we're not the only club to have players on our books on high wages that should be gone (Drinkwater is still on Chelsea's books @ 110k p/w!). The bigger issue is the length of contracts we seem to be giving at times, giving Jones a 4+1 a year ago, Matic a 3, Mata a 2+1 etc.
 

groovyalbert

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I think its more the number of players you have who are on first team wages and nowhere near the first team

Rojo - £4 Million a year
Jones - £4 Million a year
Smalling - £3.5M a year
Dalot - £1.3M a year
Mata Pereira - £1.5M a year
Linegard - £4 a year

Nearly £15M a year on players who aren't in the first team plans
You can add Romero (£3.6m), Tuanzebe (£2.6m), Grant (£1.5m!!!!!)

Also Mata's annual salary is £8.5m (!!!!!!!!)

Who the feck is sanctioning this shite.
 

finneh

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There’s no way the decisions are taken based on anything other than accounting/finance.

“Can player x contribute to the squad? Yes (at the time of asking that would be a reasonable response)

Well if we let him leave on a free we’ll need to replace him and that will cost £15m plus £50k a week over 4 years = £25.4million over 4 years.

If we offer him £100k a week then that only costs £20.8million over 4 years

Ok that saves nearly £5million that we can trouser between us, let’s do that then.”
The problem with that approach is that you then have to match the inflated salary for the next player in a similar position in the squad.

For example let's say Lingard earns £75k and we offered him a 5 year deal because it was more cost effective (£19m) than signing someone for £20m and paying them £40k a week (£30m).

That's all well and good but then when McTominay, Lindelof, Smalling, Henderson and Fred come to negotiate a contract their agents are going to firstly look at their teammates as well as other players at other clubs. Their agents will know Lingard's salary and will be looking for better terms due to greater contribution.

They all end up earning £40k per week for 5 years more than a comparative player at our rivals; because a precedent has been set. So that smart £11m saving decision ends up costing £50m.

You then have the reduction in resale value. Lingard earning £40k would have an 8 figure resale value. So that £11m saving is lost by being unable to shift him.

Every contract renewal has a large affect outside of merely that simple equation. This is obvious considering we have the largest wage bill in the league (excluding City who transferred all non footballing wages to their holding company) but a squad considerably behind what we pay.
 

Bestie07

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I think the timing of the new contracts has played a big part.

We've let too many players get within a year of leaving for nothing giving them all the power and we've panicked into giving them well above their market rate. De Gea a prime example. Any Pogba renewal is going to be the same.

We need to be ruthless well before they get to a year left and hold the cards, either sign at around market rate or be sold 2 years away from the expiry.

On the other hand there is a lot of 'pay whatever it takes' with new signings etc. on here. You can't have it both ways.
There are a couple of aspects to this as well. All of our high performers have been letting their contracts run down, while the average players are more than happy picking up what they are getting here as they would not get the same elsewhere.

Better players won't renew because they are worried about the direction of the club, and it's not worth renewing contracts of the dross as they are not worth the amount they are being paid already.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Who is actually making all these big decisions in matters of contract?

Obscure isn't it. Managers came and go (4 managers so far), not consistent, so must be one of the higher ups.. Judge and Ed? No wonder we're making shitty decisions. Their only interest is to protect/retain value of assets. Whoever is advising them in this football matters are doing shitty job.

Top: Players with contracts close to expiring are playing well, let's offer them extension/next contract because "they're still good". The players and agents demand higher double wages? ok triple it and double the contract years.
*Signed*
Players
: Okay, job done, time to relax. No need to put in more effort. Future is secured. This club is easy.
 
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Ronaldo's Love Child

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We're handing out contracts to players deemed surplus to requirements as the board want to "protect their value".

The problem is that when players like Rojo, Jones, Lingard etc are not playing then they have very very little value
 

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It's a difficult situation to get out of. If we want to upgrade the starting XI then those players coming in will be asking for parity with their peers as a minimum, and unless those players are successful here then it compounds the situation further.

If we want Telles to come in and either compete with or take over from Shaw, he's going to want to be paid whatever Shaw is paid or more.

The other issue is the pressure and lack of patience from the fans – which is mostly understandable – makes it very difficult to have a cull and reboot so to speak. Ole tried a mini version of it last season and there was all kinds of uproar about the low fees we received, the loans we granted and the lack of depth it left us with.

We need another of those culls, but without reinforcements it leaves us even thinner on the ground and I don't think fans will accept it, even if it is for the greater good in the longterm.
 

JPRouve

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You can add Romero (£3.6m), Tuanzebe (£2.6m), Grant (£1.5m!!!!!)

Also Mata's annual salary is £8.5m (!!!!!!!!)

Who the feck is sanctioning this shite.
Mata was a big purchase in January 2014, he just had a great season for Chelsea with +30 assists in all competitions. One of the issues with United is that we don't know when to give up, someone like Dalot should be shifted for everyone's sake, he needs to join a club that will give him the minutes that he needs and we could do with not paying him and getting a few millions in. When we finally try to shift them too many seasons without playing have passed and we are stuck with expensive players that have no current appeal.
 

snowkarl

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The problem with that approach is that you then have to match the inflated salary for the next player in a similar position in the squad.

For example let's say Lingard earns £75k and we offered him a 5 year deal because it was more cost effective (£19m) than signing someone for £20m and paying them £40k a week (£30m).

That's all well and good but then when McTominay, Lindelof, Smalling, Henderson and Fred come to negotiate a contract their agents are going to firstly look at their teammates as well as other players at other clubs. Their agents will know Lingard's salary and will be looking for better terms due to greater contribution.

They all end up earning £40k per week for 5 years more than a comparative player at our rivals; because a precedent has been set. So that smart £11m saving decision ends up costing £50m.

You then have the reduction in resale value. Lingard earning £40k would have an 8 figure resale value. So that £11m saving is lost by being unable to shift him.

Every contract renewal has a large affect outside of merely that simple equation. This is obvious considering we have the largest wage bill in the league (excluding City who transferred all non footballing wages to their holding company) but a squad considerably behind what we pay.
This is all true and well and good but this is 2020, not 2004. Clubs like Leicester and Everton have back up and reserve players on 50 to 70k per week. Arsenal, Chelsea and City have many youth players on 50k per week and you simply can not sign or resign players on 30 to 40k per week anymore unless they are middling youth players.

Saw someone in this thread suggesting that Smalling should be on 35k per week because he is worse than Wijnaldum... Smalling was our first choice centre back at one point, so that's just a ludicrous suggestion.

The actual issue is that the players themselves just aren't very good.

But it's impossible to sign a player for your 18 man squad and pay less than 60 to 70k per week these days. You simply won't get a quality player for that little anymore.
 

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And we still don't learn. We can't sell deadwood because of contracts but we still pay over the odds. Not just new players. Williams and McT got contracts which they would never get anywhere. After playing one decent season for first team? They needed new contracts but did we really needed to give them 70k?
 

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Is United the biggest name in British Football, the most successful club in British Football, and one of the biggest names in World football only way to get players to the club is by offering crazy money and just plan insane contracts.
United have a whole bunch of deadwood that would do okay in lower Premiership Teams but can not move them for any money due to the wages being paid. Surely United's pulling power must count for something not just the
big pay cheque, surely its got to change heard rumors that this Porto Left Back is being offered 4 times his wages to join United. Looks like Ed is not learning.
Agreed, it’s proper insane. At the same time, players like Cavarjal who was busy winning and contributing multiple champions league wins at Madrid, was earning stupid “low” wages compared to some of our “deadwood”.

They paid their players at the top end well but there was a massive discrepancy between them and the rest, whereas even out deadwood or injured lot are earning circa £100k plus.

The Carvajal example is probably an extreme one as I’m sure Madrid do pay some players high wages as well, but the other big clubs in Europe do seem to use their “brand” and the willingness of the player to offer reasonable wages, whereas we seem to get taken to the cleaners often. Which has a knock on effect on everything - other player renewals, ability to sell etc
 

groovyalbert

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Mata was a big purchase in January 2014, he just had a great season for Chelsea with +30 assists in all competitions. One of the issues with United is that we don't know when to give up, someone like Dalot should be shifted for everyone's sake, he needs to join a club that will give him the minutes that he needs and we could do with not paying him and getting a few millions in. When we finally try to shift them too many seasons without playing have passed and we are stuck with expensive players that have no current appeal.
This is why we need a director of football, I know... controversial opinion.

A lot of these players have survived being sold off/offered contract extensions because of the manager roundabout we've become since Fergie left. Each manager has been given the option to assess what's already here. This means another season to the no-hopers at the very least.

You can't blame these players for not wanting out when they're onto such a good thing, these are the manifestations of such a poorly run club. Hell, you have clubs in the likes of China, USA and the Middle-East run better/more efficiently than us. No offence to those leagues, but we're supposed to be one of the biggest football clubs/sporting franchises in the world.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Agreed, it’s proper insane. At the same time, players like Cavarjal who was busy winning and contributing multiple champions league wins at Madrid, was earning stupid “low” wages compared to some of our “deadwood”.

They paid their players at the top end well but there was a massive discrepancy between them and the rest, whereas even out deadwood or injured lot are earning circa £100k plus.

The Carvajal example is probably an extreme one as I’m sure Madrid do pay some players high wages as well, but the other big clubs in Europe do seem to use their “brand” and the willingness of the player to offer reasonable wages, whereas we seem to get taken to the cleaners often. Which has a knock on effect on everything - other player renewals, ability to sell etc
Real have always had that kind of wage structure as far as I'm aware. It's why Makelele went to Chelsea all those years ago. They refused to pay him wages in line of the Galaticos, mostly because he had little commercial value for the club off the pitch, he just wasn't a star.
 

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It's mental and we basically self destruct ourselves by doing that. Most importantly we don't learn from our mistakes at all, recent example with Henderson just shows that. We made our backup goalkeeper as 4-5th best paid goalkeeper in the league. Absolute joke :lol:
 

JPRouve

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Real have always had that kind of wage structure as far as I'm aware. It's why Makelele went to Chelsea all those years ago. They refused to pay him wages in line of the Galaticos, mostly because he had little commercial value for the club off the pitch, he just wasn't a star.
No, Makélélé went to Chelsea because he didn't fit with the galactico approach that Perez wanted and he even openly criticized his footballing abilities when he left.