Uno Draft: SF - willhse456 vs MJJ/syrian_scholes

[Enigma_87]

Disagree personally - think Davids is the cleaner fit and his dynamism dovetails well with the playmaking from Zidane. I don’t think Schuster gives Zidane anymore space or a better platform than Davids does either. If anything I think he has a slightly bigger overlap, whereas the raw physicality, mobility and engine of Davids is naturally complementary.

Yeah, basically this.

Zidane also spearheaded a midfield of Deschamps and Davids(or Conte, Di Livio), which by all means with Big Dunc instead of Deschamps is nothing but a clean upgrade.

The only reasoning behind having Schuster in the line up is to bring the aesthetic balance of RCM and LCM in the line up.

 

[MJJ]

It's also valid vice versa as well since Batistuta scored only in 1 game against semi retired Baresi out of 7 appearances.



Yeah I agree to disagree. Don't put much weight in those numbers to be honest, but Pele and Batistuta in the air and in the box against Chumpitaz and Baresi is indeed worrisome.

Question is that you create the delivery for them and get those chances.

Have to be honest - initially I thought Will had this one in the bag and had the better team, but yours looks more able to do the damage and you have the best player on the pitch in Pele.

Look at the post I copied from Raees above, Pele will be creating those chances for Batistuta for fun. You then have to consider the fact that Cole was a very good crosser of the ball and Breitner used to be a left back. I will be getting ample crosses in from the left side of the pitch.

Robson also had a very good cross on him. So either Pele will create a chance for Batistuta or he can simply finish it himself.

 

[Enigma_87]

Look at the post I copied from Raees above, Pele will be creating those chances for Batistuta for fun. You then have to consider the fact that Cole was a very good crosser of the ball and Breitner used to be a left back. I will be getting ample crosses in from the left side of the pitch.

Robson also had a very good cross on him. So either Pele will create a chance for Batistuta or he can simply finish it himself.

Yeah, that's a good point. He was very important in the build up for Arsenal and with Pires in front of him (a wide playmaker with the tendency to cut in) was much more attacking than at Chelsea. He's able to provide the delivery from the left hand side.

 

[willhse456]

Look at the post I copied from Raees above, Pele will be creating those chances for Batistuta for fun. You then have to consider the fact that Cole was a very good crosser of the ball and Breitner used to be a left back. I will be getting ample crosses in from the left side of the pitch.

Robson also had a very good cross on him. So either Pele will create a chance for Batistuta or he can simply finish it himself.

Breitner really has to stick to the defensive side of the game though, as I assume Robson is more of a box to box than Breitner is in this set up?

 

[MJJ]

Breitner really has to stick to the defensive side of the game though, as I assume Robson is more of a box to box than Breitner is in this set up?

Just like Gullit, I am sure he can find time to send in a few crosses.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I didn't want to vote because I like will's team a lot and I absolutely love that midfield. My favorite in the draft.

But I do get the point about his fullbacks.

With Stoichkov you would want an overlapper and with Gullit in the role he is playing you'd prefer an overlapper too.

Without overlappers, the opposition's already defensive back 4 would find it even more easy to hold fort. That decided my vote although with a heavy heart.

I'll keep an open mind to switch or call it a draw if there is a break down of Desailly vs Ronaldo's 7 games (I can't imagine all were at CB).

As it stands, Pele and Batistuta vs Chumpitaz and Desaiily vs Fenomeno become the biggest GOAT talking points.

Will check back tomorrow. Good luck.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I am amazed at the level of disrespect shown to Navas here, he might not be as good as Banks but he is one of the best goalkeeper of all time

You're talking about Keylor Navas here? One of best of all time

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm surprised people questioning Desailly at CB. He was excellent both in WC-98 and Euro-2000. I'd put him as world class both at CB and DM. No questions, he was a monster either position. Both his CB and DM roles have been like his nickname, a'rock'.

Personally I like him at DM, so I can field a sweeper behind, but that's just personal preference.

 

[MJJ]

You're talking about Keylor Navas here? One of best of all time

Yes thought that was clear in the post.

 

[Indnyc]

I am amazed at the level of disrespect shown to Navas here, he might not be as good as Banks but he is one of the best goalkeeper of all time

The Bolded part is the key... He isn't as good as Banks.. It's not disrespectful to him.. It's the same thing with Chumpitaz not being as good as the other 3 central defenders.. Doesn't mean Chumpitaz is bad

And Navas is certainly not one of the best of all time

 

[MJJ]

The Bolded part is the key... He isn't as good as Banks.. It's not disrespectful to him.. It's the same thing with Chumpitaz not being as good as the other 3 central defenders.. Doesn't mean Chumpitaz is bad

And Navas is certainly not one of the best of all time

My opponent compared navas to job from the pub. It's one thing saying banks is bettwe but navas is a very capable keeper. He was the reason Costa Rica made it to the QFs in 2014 and has been a key member of Madrid defense.

He is among the top five keepers of the 2010s which automatically makes him one of the best.

 

[Indnyc]

My opponent compared navas to job from the pub. It's one thing saying banks is bettwe but navas is a very capable keeper. He was the reason Costa Rica made it to the QFs in 2014 and has been a key member of Madrid defense.

He is among the top five keepers of the 2010s which automatically makes him one of the best.

De Gea, Buffon, Oblak, Valdes, Casillas have shouts before him.. Courtois as well in my book..

Again, I don’t want to digress too much from the debate.. Navas is no mug (Rate him highly, I picked him) i’ll give you that but the difference is still significant to Banks.. Whether it’ll make a difference in this game or not is down to opinions

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm surprised people questioning Desailly at CB. He was excellent both in WC-98 and Euro-2000. I'd put him as world class both at CB and DM. No questions, he was a monster either position. Both his CB and DM roles have been like his nickname, a'rock'.

Personally I like him at DM, so I can field a sweeper behind, but that's just personal preference.

No one has really questioned Desailly as CB, we were just comparing him to other CB's on the pitch.

 

[MJJ]

De Gea, Buffon, Oblak, Valdes, Casillas have shouts before him.. Courtois as well in my book..

Again, I don’t want to digress too much from the debate.. Navas is no mug (Rate him highly, I picked him) i’ll give you that but the difference is still significant to Banks.. Whether it’ll make a difference in this game or not is down to opinions

I have neuer, de gea, oblak, Ter stegen and him. The older generation is more from 2000s for me. I agree with the rest of your post for me my attack is more varied, has worked in real life and will have an easier time creating chances than vice versa. Pele in particular is going to run riot here.

My opponent has two full backs who are defensive with an inside forward and gullit who will also be operating in midfield in front of them. A midfield which doesnt work perfectly (older version of schuster means less work rate) and a centre back duo susceptible in the air. If the only weakness in my side is the keeper this should be an easy one.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

No one has really questioned Desailly as CB, we were just comparing him to other CB's on the pitch.

Scirea and Baresi are in Top 5 and different kind of players. Chumpitaz and Desailly are somewhere at same level, I reckon.

 

[Enigma_87]

Scirea and Baresi are in Top 5 and different kind of players. Chumpitaz and Desailly are somewhere at same level, I reckon.

Yeah exactly and I agree with both statements above.

 

[Isotope]

How do people easily claim Chumpitaz is as good as Desailly??

 

[MJJ]

How do people easily claim Chumpitaz is as good as Desailly??

It's a bit confusing when you compare their credentials.

 

[MJJ]

@Himannv surprised by your vote

 

[Himannv]

@Himannv surprised by your vote

Yes. I was just writing a lengthy explanation of it. I'm not convinced yet and this is a really tight call for me so I might still change my mind.

Chumpitaz's height is a big problem for me against Batistuta. 6'3" vs 5'6" is a big difference and Batigol has a good leap on him as well.

I was just watching a compilation of his header goals and it's not like he's Peter Crouch who leaps up and lets the ball hit him in the face. Batigol is excellent with flick ons, generating power on his header, and using his momentum to create the scoring opportunity. He's also great at directing his headers towards goal even when he's on the move at full speed.

I also spent a bit of time watching Chumpitaz. He's excellent at interceptions. He reads the game brilliantly, times his tackles to perfection, and makes sure he's at the right place at the right time. He's also a lot better on the ball than I remember. Not an elite passer or anything like that, but excellent with keeping possession under pressure and also pressuring opponents with one touch passing, dribbling, collecting the loose ball and keeping the attack ticking over. I think he's passable in the air and his anticipation is excellent, but he prefers the ball lower and is much more likely to shine against a player dribbling towards him than someone much taller leaping towards an airborne ball. I reckon he'll position himself well and look to muscle the player away from the ball and use his pace to compete once the ball bounces or loses trajectory.

Having said that, I think keepers are underrated in drafts. I reckon Batistuta ensures his team get more chances on goal in this contest, but Banks might just have enough quality to keep him out, while I think R9 puts it past Navas more often than not. As I said, I'm still on the fence here on this. I do think it's time to change our perspective on the value that keepers bring into these sort of contests, hence my vote.

 

[MJJ]

Yes. I was just writing a lengthy explanation of it. I'm not convinced yet and this is a really tight call for me so I might still change my mind.

Chumpitaz's height is a big problem for me against Batistuta. 6'3" vs 5'6" is a big difference and Batigol has a good leap on him as well.

I was just watching a compilation of his header goals and it's not like he's Peter Crouch who leaps up and lets the ball hit him in the face. Batigol is excellent with flick ons, generating power on his header, and using his momentum to create the scoring opportunity. He's also great at directing his headers towards goal even when he's on the move at full speed.

I also spent a bit of time watching Chumpitaz. He's excellent at interceptions. He reads the game brilliantly, times his tackles to perfection, and makes sure he's at the right place at the right time. He's also a lot better on the ball than I remember. Not an elite passer or anything like that, but excellent with keeping possession under pressure and also pressuring opponents with one touch passing, dribbling, collecting the loose ball and keeping the attack ticking over. I think he's passable in the air and his anticipation is excellent, but he prefers the ball lower and is much more likely to shine against a player dribbling towards him than someone much taller leaping towards an airborne ball. I reckon he'll position himself well and look to muscle the player away from the ball and use his pace to compete once the ball bounces or loses trajectory.

Having said that, I think keepers are underrated in drafts. I reckon Batistuta ensures his team get more chances on goal in this contest, but Banks might just have enough quality to keep him out, while I think R9 puts it past Navas more often than not. As I said, I'm still on the fence here on this. I do think it's time to change our perspective on the value that keepers bring into these sort of contests, hence my vote.

Fair enough, thanks for the detailed explanation. I would say that we should look at the defense as a whole not just keepers. Desailly and scirea will keep Ronaldo quiet and navas for all his flaws is a fantastic shot stopper. Whereas chumpitaz will be targeted by both pele and batistuta.

Now banks is more likely to save more shots than navas but how often do keepers save point blank headers fired with pace? Unless its directly at them there isnt much you can do. Banks has an edge in organising his defense, his positioning but they are less important when somebody is heading from inside the box. Even Dave with his cat reflexes often just stands there.

 

[Enigma_87]

@MJJ what is the plan on Zidane here and stopping him? You said Desailly and Scirea will be handling Fenomeno, but how do you stop Zidane having a good game?

WIth all the talk about defensive lines I think the key here is the opposition handling the two #10's - Pele and Zizou. Whilst I can see Edwards being more of a designated DM to handle Pele (and a good fit), who out of Breitner and Robbo will have more defensive functions?

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ what is the plan on Zidane here and stopping him? You said Desailly and Scirea will be handling Fenomeno, but how do you stop Zidane having a good game?

WIth all the talk about defensive lines I think the key here is the opposition handling the two #10's - Pele and Zizou. Whilst I can see Edwards being more of a designated DM to handle Pele (and a good fit), who out of Breitner and Robbo will have more defensive functions?

Both really, like the OP shows Robson has in the past dominated a midfield of Schuster and Maradona so this should be right up his alley. As Gullit is dropping into midfield as well, that means Zidane will be playing more on the left side of the pitch so Robson will naturally pick him up more with Breitner doing the same with Gullit with the help from Cole. It's really more of a zonal marking scheme rather than specifically man-marking zizou.

If Gullit stays inside without the ball, that means I will have an open out to cole who can swing it in and both Pele and Batistuta will feast.

If Gullit stays outside without the ball, its just schuster and zidane vs Breitner and Robson, a match up I will always take.

I actually think having Edwards guard Pele is a mistake as it just leaves Schuster(older playmaker) and zizou in midfield. Not the best ball winners in there and you need an extra person in there to combat Robson and Breitner.

 

[Enigma_87]

Both really, like the OP shows Robson has in the past dominated a midfield of Schuster and Maradona so this should be right up his alley. As Gullit is dropping into midfield as well, that means Zidane will be playing more on the left side of the pitch so Robson will naturally pick him up more with Breitner doing the same with Gullit with the help from Cole. It's really more of a zonal marking scheme rather than specifically man-marking zizou.

If Gullit stays inside without the ball, that means I will have an open out to cole who can swing it in and both Pele and Batistuta will feast.

If Gullit stays outside without the ball, its just schuster and zidane vs Breitner and Robson, a match up I will always take.

I actually think having Edwards guard Pele is a mistake as it just leaves Schuster(older playmaker) and zizou in midfield. Not the best ball winners in there and you need an extra person in there to combat Robson and Breitner.

Fair enough.

@willhse456 any reason behind playing older version of Schuster there?

It's big ask for Edwards to cover a lot of grass then minding Pele in the same time..

 

[willhse456]

Fair enough.

@willhse456 any reason behind playing older version of Schuster there?

It's big ask for Edwards to cover a lot of grass then minding Pele in the same time..

Whilst Zidane isn't a ball winner as such, it shouldn't be forgotten that he was very strong and could get stuck in, more so than Rivelino for example.

In the last round I received criticism for being too left sided, with Davids/Edwards/Zidane all preferring to play in areas on the left, so it's really about balance and making sure everyone is playing in a set up that maximises everyone's strengths. Also Schuster came 3rd place in the Ballon D'or playing in this role, so he was clearly able to play consistently well in this position.

 

[willhse456]

I think a lot is being made out of the height of my centre backs, but you have to remember that these are some of the best defenders of all time. Their positioning, intelligence and strength is all second to none, it's just not as simple as being a couple of inches taller makes you win every header.

 

[MJJ]

The name? Gaetano Scirea, a legend so great that he’s been revered for generations and his shadow of greatness touched upon nearly every Italian defender who has since donned the colours of the ‘La Nazionale’, so much so that Paolo Maldini, a legend in his own right, grew up idolizing Scirea.

It was Juventus(and also for Italy NT) that he would go and form what is arguably the greatest defensive partnership in football history with Claudio Gentile. Despite the success of their partnership, the two couldn’t have been much further apart in their playing styles. While, Gentile never backed out from making rash tackles, hassling attackers or altogether hacking down opposition players if he couldnt get to the ball, Scirea was blessed with unbelievable defensive intelligence that made him see a pass even before an opposition attacker made it. His anticipation and reading of the game was second to none and he had always been a believer of fairplay who rarely made any fouls, and thus, its hardly surprising that he never earned a Red Card in his career despite always playing as the last man in his defensive line.

Scirea despite his extra ordinary defensive abilities, wasn’t limited to just that, his legendary forward runs to initiate his team’s attacks, both for Juventus and Italy, are a part of Italian football’s folklore. If Franz Beckenbauer was the first to have brought the role of what is now called the libero or the sweeper into the European football, it was Scirea who specialised it and all through his years was the most vital cog in the ‘Catenaccio’ setup of Italy. As much as he was surrounded by some of the best defenders in history in the form of Claudio Gentile, Antonio Cabrini, Sergio Brio, it was him who acted as the last line of defense at times and at other times was the first to break through to set up and build play from the back.

At the peak of his career, Scirea was the reason why Franco Baresi never really got into the Italian first team.

 

[willhse456]

Fair enough.

@willhse456 any reason behind playing older version of Schuster there?

It's big ask for Edwards to cover a lot of grass then minding Pele in the same time..

Another point, just by having a natural defensive midfielder deeper in my midfield two, I'll have a lot more balance. With Breitner or Robson dropping deep that will leave so much space in the middle as Rivelino and Jairzinho aren't really the type to get stuck in.

This is why I think Schuster in a slightly deeper role is perfect, because whilst I'm attacking he will have lots of space, and his incisive passing is very good.

 

[MJJ]

1982 final, everyone remembers tardelli's winner but who is it thats assisting him over there? The one and only Scirea. One thing which I feel has been overlooked here is the playmaking/libero aspect of Scirea. Who from @willhse456 side is stopping him from running the game from the back? Its a task neither ronaldo or zidane will enjoy or do which gives him all the time and space needed to make a difference here.

Baresi was a good playmaker too but if he leaves chumpitaz alone against pele and batistuta the match will be over.

 

[willhse456]

1982 final, everyone remembers tardelli's winner but who is it thats assisting him over there? The one and only Scirea. One thing which I feel has been overlooked here is the playmaking/libero aspect of Scirea. Who from @willhse456 side is stopping him from running the game from the back? Its a task neither ronaldo or zidane will enjoy or do which gives him all the time and space needed to make a difference here.

Baresi was a good playmaker too but if he leaves chumpitaz alone against pele and batistuta the match will be over.

Can say exactly the same about Desailly and Ronaldo, in fact it's even worse for you because you don't have a designated defensive midfielder, I have plenty of options that can step in and do a very capable job.

 

[harms]

Whilst Zidane isn't a ball winner as such, it shouldn't be forgotten that he was very strong and could get stuck in, more so than Rivelino for example.

Rivelino was quite handy for an attacking midfielder as well, not sure that it's true. Both were quite feisty though.

 

[harms]

I like the "old" Schuster and Zidane pairing by the way and I think that they will work well with each other — more so than with the younger version of him, actually.

 

[MJJ]

Can say exactly the same about Desailly and Ronaldo, in fact it's even worse for you because you don't have a designated defensive midfielder, I have plenty of options that can step in and do a very capable job.

Mind sharing the names of those options with us? There is a difference between being up against one striker with a rock like desailly for a partner who has stopped ronaldo before than with somebody like chumpitaz for whom you actively need to cover for. So are you suggesting that baresi will be breaking forward from the back with complete freedom?

 

[MJJ]

Another point, just by having a natural defensive midfielder deeper in my midfield two, I'll have a lot more balance. With Breitner or Robson dropping deep that will leave so much space in the middle as Rivelino and Jairzinho aren't really the type to get stuck in.

This is why I think Schuster in a slightly deeper role is perfect, because whilst I'm attacking he will have lots of space, and his incisive passing is very good.

You really need to watch more of my players, from Desailly is not a CB to this.

 

[Enigma_87]

Whilst Zidane isn't a ball winner as such, it shouldn't be forgotten that he was very strong and could get stuck in, more so than Rivelino for example.

In the last round I received criticism for being too left sided, with Davids/Edwards/Zidane all preferring to play in areas on the left, so it's really about balance and making sure everyone is playing in a set up that maximises everyone's strengths. Also Schuster came 3rd place in the Ballon D'or playing in this role, so he was clearly able to play consistently well in this position.

Zidane and Rivelino are probably on par in that segment, I'd even put Rivelino slightly ahead considering his 1970 exploits.

Don't think the criticism is fair (on left sided players). Davids on the left with Edwards on the RCM is good as it gets. Duncan could've played anywhere and is right footed on top of it.

I don't doubt Schuster's credentials, just Davids and Zidane is a natural fit and with Davids and Duncan in the same team you have more energy and ability to cover the pitch which is IMO needed. If you had those two that would free Zidane to run the game for you and also expel him from more defensive responsibility with also allowing Gullit to concentrate more in the attacking phase rather than helping out the midfield.

 

[Enigma_87]

Another point, just by having a natural defensive midfielder deeper in my midfield two, I'll have a lot more balance. With Breitner or Robson dropping deep that will leave so much space in the middle as Rivelino and Jairzinho aren't really the type to get stuck in.

This is why I think Schuster in a slightly deeper role is perfect, because whilst I'm attacking he will have lots of space, and his incisive passing is very good.

I can see where you are coming from but Duncan can still be the DM and you have a B2B in Davids. With Chumpitaz and Baresi being able to initiate attacks from the back you don't need another DLP IMO.

If you are going to be using Schuster the younger version is the more appropriate one here.

 

[Enigma_87]

I like the "old" Schuster and Zidane pairing by the way and I think that they will work well with each other — more so than with the younger version of him, actually.

Considering Davids on the bench though and Baresi/Chumpitaz at the back I don't see what more the older Schuster can bring to the table. Davids and Duncan are also good passers of the ball, not really screaming of additional playmaking option rather than energy to combat the Breitner/Robbo duo.

 

[Enigma_87]

You really need to watch more of my players, from Desailly is not a CB to this.

Rivelino certainly is, but I don't buy the work rate of Jairzinho. He often was the farthest player on the pitch in 70 WC and usually not the type of player to continuously chase players down or help the midfield.

 

[harms]

Considering Davids on the bench though and Baresi/Chumpitaz at the back I don't see what more the older Schuster can bring to the table. Davids and Duncan are also good passers of the ball, not really screaming of additional playmaking option rather than energy to combat the Breitner/Robbo duo.

Edwards/Baresi were adequate passers in the all-time sense but having Schuster there is a great option to launch a quick counter to Stoichkov/Ronaldo or to provide an alternative playmaking route in case Zidane is taken out of the game.

Not the biggest fan of an Edwards/Davids pair, something feels off there.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Edwards/Baresi were adequate passers in the all-time sense

Doesn't really have too much to do with the game, but was Edwards really an adequate passer in an all time sense?

From what I have sense, while he did have bursts forward, his passing was wayward. Probably would have developed as he grew older but I don't think he was an impressive passer in an all time sense.