Unpopular (AKA fickle) opinion time on AWB.....

Neil_Buchanan said:
Dalots improvement this season was impressive but AWBs is something else, really hope he can keep this up. Amazing what proper coaching and team set up can do along with a bit of confidence. Buzzing for the lad.
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Come on, man.

Dalot has done it over four months, defensively and offensively, for both club and country. We're at what, five games with AWB? I agree AWB has been great these last five games but I can't agree that less than half-dozen games supercedes a half-season of quality on both ends of the field.
 
Very impressed by AWB lately, hopefully he can keep it up and claim the RB spot full time with Dalot pushing him.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
Come on, man.

Dalot has done it over four months, defensively and offensively, for both club and country. We're at what, five games with AWB? I agree AWB has been great these last five games but I can't agree that less than half-dozen games supercedes a half-season of quality on both ends of the field.
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When you take in where they started from I think it does. I’m just saying who improved the most this season not who is the better player etc. Wan Bissaka didn’t even look like a PL player not long ago.
 
Anustart89 said:
Strongly disagree with this. There was a reason that every team's pressing trigger was AWB and there was a reason we were so weak under pressure.

He's definitely improved, though, in the sense that his first touch actually takes him in a direction as opposed to using his first touch to put the ball at his feet and then deciding which way to go. This saves valuable seconds which allows him to escape the press which he has done to good effect over the past few games.
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Perhaps it's more noticeable now that he's in overall good form, but skills like this are not things a player goes through his entire youth and early adulthood lacking and then suddenly improves on in a few games.
 
b82REZ said:
He's the least press resistant player in our squad. There's a reason he's targeted as a pressing trigger for the opposition.

He's in good form now, but let's not lie about his ability. He's not shown anything we didn't already know. He's a good 1on1 defender who is limited on the ball.

He's probably earned himself a squad position if he wants it, but Dalot will rightly be back in the starting lineup when he's fit.
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Got any stats to back this up?
 
The Original said:
This exactly.

Can't take all these posters seriously when they're doing u-turns praising him for things a few of us could clearly see even when the guy was at his worst. He's always been a good dribbler, and very press resistant.
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That's a pretty ludicrous claim to make about a player we've seen team after team target with their press over the last few years.

All for giving the guy his due but lets not ignore reality to do so.
 
sullydnl said:
That's a pretty ludicrous claim to make about a player we've seen team after team target with their press over the last few years.

All for giving the guy his due but lets not ignore reality to do so.
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Whether it's ludicrous or not is subjective - you may not agree with my opinion, nor I with yours. However, what is particularly relevant is that I made this exact same claim at the time, so I have been quite consistent in my opinion that he is press resistant. This in comparison to posters who find it plausible that a professional at the highest level only just learned how to beat the press 5 games into a new manager's regime.

Does that not sound ludicrous?

A much better claim would be that perhaps he lost some form and confidence for some time, while the ability was always there.
 
The Original said:
Perhaps it's more noticeable now that he's in overall good form, but skills like this are not things a player goes through his entire youth and early adulthood lacking and then suddenly improves on in a few games.
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I don't think that he necessarily lacked the skill to do it (I mean, it's just about rotating your foot and adjusting the amount of force you put into the touch), it's more to do with the fact that his previous coach never demanded that type of thing from him (due to not being able to see it as a problem) whereas his current manager is meticulous and has great attention to detail, even when it comes to fringe players apparently. However, the lack of basic technique compared to other members of this squad is evident when you see him dribble with the ball. It can obviously be improved upon, but not even EtH is going to make him dribble like Messi over the course of his adult playing career.
 
The Original said:
Got any stats to back this up?
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Why would I need stats? Stevie Wonder would be able to establish him as a weak point. I suggest you pay attention during our games against high pressing teams and how they swarm AWB and the right flank when he's playing.
 
The Original said:
Whether it's ludicrous or not is subjective - you may not agree with my opinion, nor I with yours. However, what is particularly relevant is that I made this exact same claim at the time, so I have been quite consistent in my opinion that he is press resistant. This in comparison to posters who find it plausible that a professional at the highest level only just learned how to beat the press 5 games into a new manager's regime.

Does that not sound ludicrous?
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I'm not sure "even as we were watching team after team target and exploit AWB with their press, I was still saying he's really good at not being pressed" is the winning argument you think it is.
 
b82REZ said:
Why would I need stats? Stevie Wonder would be able to establish him as a weak point. I suggest you pay attention during our games against high pressing teams and how they swarm AWB and the right flank when he's playing.
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That was more because he had Dan James or Lingard in front of him who never showed for the ball and Fred and Mctominay inside him who didn't want it either.

No surprise that with a bit of coaching from Ten Hag, Casemiro and Eriksen inside of him and Anthony in front of him that he looks much better when pressed.
 
Long Time Red said:
That was more because he had Dan James or Lingard in front of him who never showed for the ball and Fred and Mctominay inside him who didn't want it either.

No surprise that with a bit of coaching from Ten Hag, Casemiro and Eriksen inside of him and Anthony in front of him that he looks much better when pressed.
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This is a very good point. If your teammates aren’t showing, and leaving you isolated even when in possession, it’s going to make a player seem worse.

AWB has been picking his passes and dribbles out of trouble almost perfectly in recent matches, and having players to pass to certainly helps.
 
I also find him quite press resistant.

Under Ole our players positioning was all over the place - so pressing Wan Bissaka used to make him a quick incalculable pass to a player that wasn’t in possession.

Now we are much more about possesion and positioning - when Wan Bissaka gets pressed; the team’s positioning is usually quite safe or he can dribble out of the trouble himself.
 
b82REZ said:
Why would I need stats? Stevie Wonder would be able to establish him as a weak point. I suggest you pay attention during our games against high pressing teams and how they swarm AWB and the right flank when he's playing.
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You would need stats since all you have is your opinion - which at the moment is most untrustworthy given how fickle it appears to be.
 
sullydnl said:
I'm not sure "even as we were watching team after team target and exploit AWB with their press, I was still saying he's really good at not being pressed" is the winning argument you think it is.
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Being proven right by making a strong claim against the sea of public opinion and then having the tide of that sea turn around is infact, sir, a winning argument.
 
The Original said:
You would need stats since all you have is your opinion - which at the moment is most untrustworthy given how fickle it appears to be.
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Professional managers have regularly targeted him as he often turns over possession when under pressure. I'm not even sure what arbitrary stat you'd want to prove that, it's visible to anyone who has watched him regularly.

You can argue he has improved in this regard, which he has, marginally. But to say he's always been press resistant is simply untrue.

He has a very unorthodox, but somewhat effective dribbling style; that is is not press resistance, nor does that make him press resistant.

We do not need to rewrite history because he's in a good vein of form. When everyone is fit he will not be starting, especially against any team that will press our defenders.

The Original said:
Being proven right by making a strong claim against the sea of public opinion and then having the tide of that sea turn around is infact, sir, a winning argument.
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"Am I out of touch? No it's the children that are wrong."
 
b82REZ said:
Professional managers have regularly targeted him as he often turns over possession when under pressure. I'm not even sure what arbitrary stat you'd want to prove that, it's visible to anyone who has watched him regularly.

You can argue he has improved in this regard, which he has, marginally. But to say he's always been press resistant is simply untrue.

He has a very unorthodox, but somewhat effective dribbling style; that is is not press resistance, nor does that make him press resistant.

We do not need to rewrite history because he's in a good vein of form. When everyone is fit he will not be starting, especially against any team that will press our defenders.



"Am I out of touch? No it's the children that are wrong."
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Not hard. There must be some stat on turnovers per game out there.

Anyway, I'm happy to disagree on the points we've discussed so far, given that it suffices to say: I told you so.
 
The Original said:
Not hard. There must be some stat on turnovers per game out there.

Anyway, I'm happy to disagree on the points we've discussed so far, given that it suffices to say: I told you so.
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Go and look them up then; I'm not the one asking for stats. Somethings don't need quantifying when you can see over multiple seasons how he is targeted due to his lack of composure and passing ability.

The sheer levels of arrogance and sanctimony you're displaying over this is hilarious, even more so when our manager had actively tried to offload him since his arrival. But apparently you've seen something everyone else with eyes has missed. The onus is on you to prove that, not the other way round.
 
Much improved of late but he's still levels below Shaw on the opposite wing. Defensively solid, making some decent overlapping runs, but he lacks the technical ability to be a top, top full back.
 
b82REZ said:
Go and look them up then; I'm not the one asking for stats. Somethings don't need quantifying when you can see over multiple seasons how he is targeted due to his lack of composure and passing ability.

The sheer levels of arrogance and sanctimony you're displaying over this is hilarious, even more so when our manager had actively tried to offload him since his arrival. But apparently you've seen something everyone else with eyes has missed. The onus is on you to prove that, not the other way round.
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Come on now, keep up with yourself.

You came in and made an assertion, being that AWB is targeted for turnovers by opposing managers. I asked if you had stats to prove it, and you asked what stats. I merely advised you on what to look for. You could have asked for stats from the beginning and I would have happily provided them - as I now have, below.


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So what do these tell us?

Dribbles: He's a much better dribbler than other top right backs. Did your eye test tell you that?

Poor touches: He's just about average when compared with top right-backs.

So how can someone who's comparatively an excellent dribbler, who doesn't make an unusual amount of poor touches be simultaneously poor at press resistance? If he was poor at resisting the press it would obviously tell in a much lower dribble success rate, wouldn't it?

Edit:

And these are from what most would consider his worst season.

Edit +:

Thought you might enjoy an accompanying video - to refresh your eye test.

AWB Press Resistance Eye Test
 
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The Original said:
.

So how can someone who's comparatively an excellent dribbler, who doesn't make an unusual amount of poor touches be simultaneously poor at press resistance? If he was poor at resisting the press it would obviously tell in a much lower dribble success rate, wouldn't it?
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:lol: you haven't a clue. Carry on, kid.
 
b82REZ said:
:lol: you haven't a clue. Carry on, kid.
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You seem to think "kid" is an insult. I'd suggest, going by the eye test, of course, that you're merely projecting your insecurities over your own age perhaps.

Don't. You'll grow up and find that there's so much joy to being young. I promise.

Then again, you might just be a childish man who can't admit when he's wrong in an argument. That would be a shame.

All the best either ways!
 
The Original said:
You seem to think "kid" is an insult. I'd suggest, going by the eye test, of course, that you're merely projecting your insecurities over your own age perhaps.

Don't. You'll grow up and find that there's so much joy to being young. I promise.

Then again, you might just be a childish man who can't admit when he's wrong in an argument. That would be a shame.

All the best either ways!
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The ironing is absolutely delicious. Please keep it up, this is cheering me right up.
 
I seem to remember AWB being given space under Ole because opponents knew he could do very little with the ball. Don't remember him being overly targeted by the opposition press.
 
b82REZ said:
The ironing is absolutely delicious. Please keep it up, this is cheering me right up.
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What ironing? Did you mean irony?

Whatever the case, I am indeed pleased to see that something about my contributions here has cheered you up. I wouldn't have it any other way!

Cheers!

Edit:
On second thought, perhaps it's all that delicious ironing giving you such good cheer? How disappointing for me.
 
youngrell said:
I seem to remember AWB being given space under Ole because opponents knew he could do very little with the ball. Don't remember him being overly targeted by the opposition press.
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I remember him not being given space because they knew his passing was a bit ropy and he'd cough up possession semi often. He isn't / wasn't easy to get the ball off, he was liable to just give it away or put other players in difficult situations by poor choice or execution.
 
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Thought he was good and thought going forward he was hampered by Antony who was a tad unorthodox. Wasn’t sure if Antony wanted to hug the touchline and get crosses in or whether he was just aimlessly running - keeping possession. No cohesion between the two but if AWB can form a proper partnership on that side I don’t have an issue with him at all.

Actually thought Shaw was quite poor going forward last night.
 
The Original said:
Come on now, keep up with yourself.

You came in and made an assertion, being that AWB is targeted for turnovers by opposing managers. I asked if you had stats to prove it, and you asked what stats. I merely advised you on what to look for. You could have asked for stats from the beginning and I would have happily provided them - as I now have, below.


YqEYFFc.png


So what do these tell us?

Dribbles: He's a much better dribbler than other top right backs. Did your eye test tell you that?

Poor touches: He's just about average when compared with top right-backs.

So how can someone who's comparatively an excellent dribbler, who doesn't make an unusual amount of poor touches be simultaneously poor at press resistance? If he was poor at resisting the press it would obviously tell in a much lower dribble success rate, wouldn't it?

Edit:

And these are from what most would consider his worst season.

Edit +:

Thought you might enjoy an accompanying video - to refresh your eye test.

AWB Press Resistance Eye Test
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He has quite a specific "lanky" type of dribble (can't find a better word) in which he is pretty successful. However his passing/decision making/final ball are all quite questionable at times. That makes him relatively ineffective going forward (your stats confirm that).

What makes him good at this time is that he is a solid ball career, keeps it simple and has his side of the pitch locked. Don't think he will ever truly excell going forward, but these traits still make him pretty valuable to most EPL clubs. We could and should actually get solid money for him if we decide to sell because of his qualities.
 
Last season, both AWB and Rashford were so bad that we thought their career as professional footballer are done.

Their transformation this season are unbelievable. Rashford looks like 100M striker and AWB looks like 50M defender again.

Such a big difference coached by a proper manager
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Last season, both AWB and Rashford were so bad that we thought their career as professional footballer are done.

Their transformation this season are unbelievable. Rashford looks like 100M striker and AWB looks like 50M defender again.

Such a big difference coached by a proper manager
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He didn't yesterday tbf. Overplaying things a bit, nothing was really coming off for him.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Last season, both AWB and Rashford were so bad that we thought their career as professional footballer are done.

Their transformation this season are unbelievable. Rashford looks like 100M striker and AWB looks like 50M defender again.

Such a big difference coached by a proper manager
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AWB has improved but his one failing still needs improving, his defensive positioning isn't as good as it needs to be, his last ditch tackles are great but he shouldn't need to be doing as many as he does and that's partly down to his positional awareness. His passing in tight spaces has improved tremendously, a bit better on crossing and his positioning then Dalot's gonna have a hard time displacing him
 
I find a bit weird all the recent praise. I guess compared to last year he is a different player. But for me, this is the AWB of the first 1 and a half years. Some amazing tackles and some weirdly efficient dribbles. But overall, hopeless in attack with pointless runs, and useless overlaps. He can be useful in some specific games and can give a solid 7/10 performance. But put an inform Dalot in yesterday's match, and we probably win. With AWB the attacking right side is non-existent.
 
Jim Beam said:
He has quite a specific "lanky" type of dribble (can't find a better word) in which he is pretty successful. However his passing/decision making/final ball are all quite questionable at times. That makes him relatively ineffective going forward (your stats confirm that).

What makes him good at this time is that he is a solid ball career, keeps it simple and has his side of the pitch locked. Don't think he will ever truly excell going forward, but these traits still make him pretty valuable to most EPL clubs. We could and should actually get solid money for him if we decide to sell because of his qualities.
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Quite agreed. He has a unique dribbling style that is effective for beating a press from a standing position, but not for taking on a man. So many conflate these. Ultimately I don't think he'll ever be a top full-back but he's far far better than most on here would have you believe. And press resistance has never been one of his issues.
 
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