US Politics

[Blodssvik]

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06...tradite-accused-hacker-lauri-love-to-the-u-s/

UK standing up for human rights.

 

[Raoul]

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[Fergies Gum]

Dems have just lost their leverage on the DACA issue. Senate leaders have agreed to a budget deal but no deal on the dreamers.

 

[Fergies Gum]

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[Mike Schatner]

Dems have just lost their leverage on the DACA issue. Senate leaders have agreed to a budget deal but no deal on the dreamers.

The Dems are harming themselves by holding the entire country at ransom over DACA. Everyone I talked to were disgusted by the Dems last month. DACA and the Dreamers needs addressing but it should not be tied to the budget of the entire federal government.

 

[Raoul]

The Dems are harming themselves by holding the entire country at ransom over DACA. Everyone I talked to were disgusted by the Dems last month. DACA and the Dreamers needs addressing but it should not be tied to the budget of the entire federal government.

It's the morally right position to take though. You can't have hundreds of thousands of people deported. Schumer knows Trump won't want the spectacle of that going into the midterms and is quite right to call his bluff on it.

 

[Mike Schatner]

It's the morally right position to take though. You can't have hundreds of thousands of people deported. Schumer knows Trump won't want the spectacle of that going into the midterms and is quite right to call his bluff on it.

Trump already has a plan that gives the dreamers exactly what they want. Most voters are turned off by political gesturing and holding the country ransum. IF it got as far as mass deportation that would reflect very badly on the Trump administration and GOP.

 

[langster]

Trump orchestrated the entire thing. He has flip flopped on hos position on the dreamers countless times. He ran saying he would deport them all then flipped and said he would give them all citizenship. He's entirely at fault for this whole thing and he's intentionally doing this to make the Dems look bad.

He made false promises and the Dems even had a plan that gave Trump his wall and everything but he turned it down just so he could bitch. He's intentionally dividing the country and causing mayhem.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

Trump already has a plan that gives the dreamers exactly what they want. Most voters are turned off by political gesturing and holding the country ransum. IF it got as far as mass deportation that would reflect very badly on the Trump administration and GOP.

What else can Trump possibly do to reflect badly on him? A whole bunch of brown people would get deported and Trump would use it during a rally to solidify his base.

 

[Red Viking]

The Dems are harming themselves by holding the entire country at ransom over DACA. Everyone I talked to were disgusted by the Dems last month. DACA and the Dreamers needs addressing but it should not be tied to the budget of the entire federal government.

The Republicans and Donald Trump are at fault for the current situation regarding the dreamers and their legal status as they rescinded the program last year. This means it needs addressing now and can not wait. The Democrats can not accept hot air promises from the Republicans to deal with it later on. Mitch McConnell are a not someone you can expect to keep his word or to play fair. The Democrats needs to play hard ball and give the Republicans a taste of their own medicine to secure the dreamers a legal pathway to citizen for both economical and moral reasons.

The Republicans are governing the country right now and they need to learn that sometimes you need to compromise to get things done and a government shut down because they refuse to compromise is really on them. They can not get everything they want all the time even though this is how Mitch McConnell typically operates . Also take into account 70% of Americans support the dreamers and that makes it an important issue to deal with and democratically supported as a clear majority wants to see it happen.

Trump already has a plan that gives the dreamers exactly what they want. Most voters are turned off by political gesturing and holding the country ransum. IF it got as far as mass deportation that would reflect very badly on the Trump administration and GOP.

Then giving the Democrats what they are after an straight forward yes and move forward. Whatever Trump has said regarding the dreamers holds little value as the man lies about almost everything and can not be trusted. This means forcing the issue and getting the Dreamers the legal pathway to citizenship by law to finally settle the issue. The budget is the only means the Democrats have to secure the future of these young people and need to use it.

 

[Mike Schatner]

He made false promises and the Dems even had a plan that gave Trump his wall and everything but he turned it down just so he could bitch.

That is not actually true. The plan proposed before the last shutdown was $2 billion funding which is about 10% of the cost of Trump's precious wall.

 

[shabadu84]

LOL @ the idea that saving the Dreamers is part of a benevolent plan by Trump.

The endgame of all the immigration BS - the wall talk, the Mexican rapists, the Muslim ban, the shithole countries - is to push for what he/Stephen Miller is asking for now. They want to cut legal immigration more than anything and would gladly do it in exchange for the million or so people already here. Stop the "chain migration" and the H1B visas etc and you stop the white genocide.

That's what Make America Great Again is a euphemism for.

 

[langster]

That is not actually true. The plan proposed before the last shutdown was $2 billion funding which is about 10% of the cost of Trump's precious wall.

That was the sum he first said it will cost.

 

[Mike Schatner]

I am totally in favor of fixing the DACA issue. However holding the country to ransom will erode support for the Dems not increase it. I am a Democratic voter, and most the people I associate with are. The overwhelming feeling in my circles last month was the DACA issue was not worth holding the entire federal budget up for.

 

[fishfingers15]

LOL @ the idea that saving the Dreamers is part of a benevolent plan by Trump.

The endgame of all the immigration BS - the wall talk, the Mexican rapists, the Muslim ban, the shithole countries - is to push for what he/Stephen Miller is asking for now. They want to cut legal immigration more than anything and would gladly do it in exchange for the million or so people already here. Stop the "chain migration" and the H1B visas etc and you stop the white genocide.

That's what Make America Great Again is a euphemism for.

Great point. One guy from my team had his H1 B extn rejected today. USCIS gives 60 days after rejection notice to move back to home country, but employers generally give less than 15 working days to move. He may have to uproot his family in a couple of weeks to India and he has a 5 year old son. Came on a legal visa, spent all his time legally paying nearly 30K in social security tax that he may not ever get back and still has more than two years validity on his granted H1 B visa.

 

[fishfingers15]

I am totally in favor of fixing the DACA issue. However holding the country to ransom will erode support for the Dems not increase it. I am a Democratic voter, and most the people I associate with are. The overwhelming feeling in my circles last month was the DACA issue was not worth holding the entire federal budget up for.

Many middle class people will feel the same way. Activists will see it other way though. I'm guessing here, but people in the DACA program would pressurize Dems to get a deal as long as they are not affected while limiting legal immigration. Everyone votes for their individual issues.

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

I am totally in favor of fixing the DACA issue. However holding the country to ransom will erode support for the Dems not increase it. I am a Democratic voter, and most the people I associate with are. The overwhelming feeling in my circles last month was the DACA issue was not worth holding the entire federal budget up for.

Trump DOES NOT want to fix DACA. I don't know why people are of the opinion that he actually wants these people to remain here...legally. He's a con man and at the end of the day he's trying to get his wall and no DACA.

 

[Eboue]

I am totally in favor of fixing the DACA issue. However holding the country to ransom will erode support for the Dems not increase it. I am a Democratic voter, and most the people I associate with are. The overwhelming feeling in my circles last month was the DACA issue was not worth holding the entire federal budget up for.

Breaking a promise to 800,000 people who did nothing wrong seems like a pretty important issue to stand for. If democrats aren't going to stand on this, what will they stand for? And if they aren't, why should people who care about human rights continue to support them? This is a fundamental issue of right and wrong.

 

[langster]

He's more than happy at the moment just making the Dems look bad and blaming them for everything.

 

[Red Viking]

I am totally in favor of fixing the DACA issue. However holding the country to ransom will erode support for the Dems not increase it. I am a Democratic voter, and most the people I associate with are. The overwhelming feeling in my circles last month was the DACA issue was not worth holding the entire federal budget up for.

The Democrats are the ones seeking a compromise and thus they are acting in good faith trying to reach a settlement unlike the Republican Party. The Republicans are the ones trying to blame others because they refuse to negotiate a fair settlement with the opposition. You are asking for the Democrats to roll over for the Republicans and that is far worse proposition to make as that would make the Democratic party look incredible weak in the sense that they can not even get something like the DACA program done even when on a good negotiation position.

 

[langster]

Breaking a promise to 800,000 people who did nothing wrong seems like a pretty important issue to stand for. If democrats aren't going to stand on this, what will they stand for? And if they aren't, why should people who care about human rights continue to support them? This is a fundamental issue of right and wrong.

Exactly. Anyone blaming the Dems for this either have their priorities ass backwards or they don't understand what it really going on or they don't care either way.

 

[fishfingers15]

Trump DOES NOT want to fix DACA. I don't know why people are of the opinion that he actually wants these people to remain here...legally. He's a con man and at the end of the day he's trying to get his wall and no DACA.

This is true. The amount of flip flops and the conflicting messages he has given clearly indicates that he doesn't want to fix DACA. This March deadline is entirely artificial that's a direct result of Trump unilaterally closing DACA. On the other hand, electing a dunderhead like this will result in absolute idiocy like this.

 

[Mike Schatner]

Exactly. Anyone blaming the Dems for this either have their priorities ass backwards or they don't understand what it really going on or they don't care either way.

No one is blaming the Dems over the DACA situation. However real American voters and tax payers do not think its an issue the entire government should shut down over.

 

[langster]

No one is blaming the Dems over the DACA situation. However real American voters and tax payers do not think its an issue the entire government should shut down over.

I think the status of 800,000 human beings is extremely important. I also can't remember the Dems saying they wanted a shutdown or they thought it was a good idea either. Trump however.......

 

[Eboue]

No one is blaming the Dems over the DACA situation. However real American voters and tax payers do not think its an issue the entire government should shut down over.

there are more people in America than dreamt of in your philosophy

 

[Mike Schatner]

there are more people in America than dreamt of in your philosophy

Neither party rely on the 40% to the left or the right of the spectrum. It is the swing voters that decide elections. Some swing voters will appreciate the increased take home pay, others will view a government shutdown on the DAC issue as unnecessary.

Ultimately i want the same things as mot posters here but you have to win elections and control both houses to move agendas forward.

 

[berbatrick]

Neither party rely on the 40% to the left or the right of the spectrum. It is the swing voters that decide elections.

There are far, far, more people that don't vote than there are swing voters. Energising your base is a very viable elctoral strategy - this is not a nobody from redcafe speaking but Karl Rove:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/architect/rove/2004.html
Highlights -

persuadable voters in the last 20 years had gone from 22 percent of the electorate to 7 percent of the electorate in 2000
...
Yup. Our goal was to say that we wanted the same number of Republicans on Election Day as Democrats, and if we saw that we had the same number of people that said they were Republicans on Election Day as Democrats, we were going to win the election, no matter what happened among the small group of persuadable voters. We

 

[Mike Schatner]

There are far, far, more people that don't vote than there are swing voters.

I would actually count the no voters in the group i am talking about. They swing from voting to staying away because neither party appears or their normal preference is not appealing.

 

[Eboue]

Neither party rely on the 40% to the left or the right of the spectrum.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016

 

[berbatrick]

I would actually count the no voters in the group i am talking about. They swing from voting to staying away because neither party appears or their normal preference is not appealing.

And can you imagine the effect this DACA surrender might have on the Dem base on immigration activists (who don't just vote but also help bring people to the polls) and families/friends of DACA people? Can you see the parallel with the complete destruction of unions and the problems with Hillary's ground game in the midwest?

 

[Cheesy]

No one is blaming the Dems over the DACA situation. However real American voters and tax payers do not think its an issue the entire government should shut down over.

That's a bit of a broad generalisation, is it not? US is a massive country and opinions on the issue are wide-ranging and diverse. Plus the Dems ultimately have to stand for something...if they don't then they're not going to appeal to or energise voters at all for November.

 

[shabadu84]

real American

Just out of curiosity, what makes someone a "real American"?

 

[Mike Schatner]

Just out of curiosity, what makes someone a "real American"?

Seeing as I said "real American voters and tax payers" I would think that was a bit obvious.

 

[Mike Schatner]

That's a bit of a broad generalisation, is it not? US is a massive country and opinions on the issue are wide-ranging and diverse. Plus the Dems ultimately have to stand for something...if they don't then they're not going to appeal to or energise voters at all for November.

My concern is the more ammo Trump and the GOP have the harder it will be for the Dems to get power. The numbers below should scare the hell out of DNC strategists. A second shutdown over DACA will push will be more damaging IMO. This is at a time when most working Americans are seeing nice increases in take home pay because of the tax cuts.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/19/politics/cnn-poll-shutdown-trump-immigration-daca/index.html

Still, 56% overall say approving a budget agreement to avoid a shutdown is more important than continuing the DACA program, while just 34% choose DACA over a shutdown.

 

[berbatrick]

My concern is the more ammo Trump and the GOP have the harder it will be for the Dems to get power. The numbers below should scare the hell out of DNC strategists. A second shutdown over DACA will push will be more damaging IMO. This is at a time when most working Americans are seeing nice increases in take home pay because of the tax cuts.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/19/politics/cnn-poll-shutdown-trump-immigration-daca/index.html

Still, 56% overall say approving a budget agreement to avoid a shutdown is more important than continuing the DACA program, while just 34% choose DACA over a shutdown.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...03fb5822c3e_story.html?utm_term=.062215652565

People overwhelmingly blamed the GOP for the govt shutdown of 2012, and then voted the GOP in a clean sweep in 2014.

 

[Mike Schatner]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...03fb5822c3e_story.html?utm_term=.062215652565

People overwhelmingly blamed the GOP for the govt shutdown of 2012, and then voted the GOP in a clean sweep in 2014.

I actually think the GOP super packs are much more effective pushing a negative message. The less ammo they have the better IMO.

 

[Cheesy]

My concern is the more ammo Trump and the GOP have the harder it will be for the Dems to get power. The numbers below should scare the hell out of DNC strategists. A second shutdown over DACA will push will be more damaging IMO. This is at a time when most working Americans are seeing nice increases in take home pay because of the tax cuts.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/19/politics/cnn-poll-shutdown-trump-immigration-daca/index.html

Still, 56% overall say approving a budget agreement to avoid a shutdown is more important than continuing the DACA program, while just 34% choose DACA over a shutdown.

But irrespective of that the Democrats must have principles they're willing to abide by. While pragmatism is also needed if they're willing to sacrifice those principles then they're effectively allowing Trump free reign and admitting they'll cave in with ease.

56% may say that, but plenty within that category who're anti-Trump won't see it as enough to stop them voting for the Dems. Trump's done plenty people disapproved of but it didn't stop him.

 

[Mike Schatner]

But irrespective of that the Democrats must have principles they're willing to abide by. While pragmatism is also needed if they're willing to sacrifice those principles then they're effectively allowing Trump free reign and admitting they'll cave in with ease.

56% may say that, but plenty within that category who're anti-Trump won't see it as enough to stop them voting for the Dems. Trump's done plenty people disapproved of but it didn't stop him.

Then call his bluff and accept his DACA/Immigration plan.

 

[Cheesy]

Then call his bluff and accept his DACA/Immigration plan.

But what if they disagree with it?

 

[fishfingers15]

Seeing as I said "real American voters and tax payers" I would think that was a bit obvious.

What about tax payers who don't vote? Are they included in your worry list?