No, not at all, but I can see how you'd think that. I think the only difference under SAF was that we spent pretty modestly in his latter years so therefore the "we've spent so much and come on so little" excuse couldn't be used. Fergie did absolute wonders with that side but the severe lack of reinforcement in our midfield back then is still haunting us today. Just look at the amount of duds we've since signed there to try fix the problems!
Using money as an excuse
- Thread starter quiet_united
- Start date
I’m not sure we have blown it though. This is my point. You quoute £712m like it’s this huge number but my point is we have spent the bulk of that at a time when a full back costs £50m
See what I mean? If we had spent £350m between 2012 and 2015 you would expect to get 6/7 top players.
We’ve spent £205m of that £712m on three players, all of whom were absolutely necessary. It’s not Jose’s fault we let the squad fall into disrepair during SAFs final few years
I’m also not a big fan of using net spend but Di Maria will account for £60m of that £712m and we kept him for just the one season before selling on. Also, he has never been available to Jose.
Think that's why we've replaced them all over the last couple of years!
Alright, I gotta come out and say a few things against the popular "Mourihno is negative" narrative. First of all, I am his fan. That's another story, but I wanted to disclose this upfront.
He is a defensive minded manager; I won't argue that point. But when he has the players with the right mentality and the right qualities, his style can be very entertaining. I found his Inter's side run to the treble very entertaining because of how well organized and lethal they were on counters, and also because that team was so united behind him as the manager. The way I see it, counterattacks are one of the most entertaining aspects of the game. The third goal against Arsenal was a fantastic goal; how fast they went from winning the ball to scoring, with excellent quick interplay between Lingard and Lukaku to get the move going.
When I look at the players that United has, I think that the team is a few pieces away from being incredibly successful playing Mourihno way. Martial, Rashford, Lukaku, Pogba, Lingard, all have speed and can punish teams with counterattacks. The missing pieces are a #10 with an eye for assists (Miki is ok, but is inconsistent and loses the ball too much), a left fullback that can contribute on the attack, and an athletic defensive mid (Fellaini is actually not bad, but it wouldn't hurt to have another option). What is also very important is that it seems that the young players that could be the core for the years to come (Lukaku, Pogba, Rashford, Lingard, Martial) all seem to be friends and enjoy playing together. I believe that if given time, Mourihno can build a formidable team.
To be quite honest, I find the United fans to be spoiled and overly pessimistic. Every loss, every bad performance, it's a tragedy for some reason. It's easy to be a fan when you're winning all the time. This is when you need to be a true fan. And it's not like there is no progress over the last season and a half - top 16 of CL (and probably more), currently second in the league (and even though chances are slim, there is still hope) - and all of this with a ton of injuries and suspensions. So you lost to City, but it was without Pogba, Fellaini, Bailey, Matic playing injured, Rojo injured at half time, etc.
This team just needs better players unfortunately and they will cost, unless we are happy being a top 6/4 team and winning the occasional cup. Everyone whether they like it or not can see what City and PSG are doing and Real Madrid will always find a way to spend huge to stay on top. SAF, Moyes, van Gaal have all made mistakes that led to the team Jose inherited. He has done well in getting rid of some dead wood and finally getting Rooney off the wage book. At the end of the day though as much as the likes of Young, Lingard, Fellaini, Herrera, Blind, Darmian etc give effort they are not first teamers for any top club. I do not even believe Rashford should be a first team player right now which I know will raise a few eyebrows. The love in for Valencia is strong but I would be seriously looking for an upgrade if I was Jose and the whole Shaw leg break has really cost us as until that point he looked so very promising - if Jose is not keen we do need a replacement asap.
Cant really fault any of Jose signings so far although the jury is still out on Lindelof imo. We have snapped up a lot of young talent and changed up our scouting network but this is still some years off bearing fruit for the first team, if any player even makes it that far. Simply put, to cut my long winded post short, we need to spend big if we want to stay relevant - if not I would honestly not be surprised if we go on an Arsenal length period without a title.
De Gea, new LB, Rojo, Bailly, new RB, Pogba, Matic, new 10, Martial, new RW, Lukaku.
Subs - Romero, Pereira, Valencia, Rashford, Smalling, Lindelof, new CM.
This will cost so Jose needs to be backed.
Cant really fault any of Jose signings so far although the jury is still out on Lindelof imo. We have snapped up a lot of young talent and changed up our scouting network but this is still some years off bearing fruit for the first team, if any player even makes it that far. Simply put, to cut my long winded post short, we need to spend big if we want to stay relevant - if not I would honestly not be surprised if we go on an Arsenal length period without a title.
De Gea, new LB, Rojo, Bailly, new RB, Pogba, Matic, new 10, Martial, new RW, Lukaku.
Subs - Romero, Pereira, Valencia, Rashford, Smalling, Lindelof, new CM.
This will cost so Jose needs to be backed.
General opinion seems to be that we are entitled to win the league every year because we are the only team that can massively outspend everyone else without financial doping.
Firstly I think we all agree that money hasn't been the issue it has been the way the money was used. Under SAF he had 26 years to build the club to what it has become with success along the way. Due to the fact that the club grew with him he could be the center of all and be in control of all around him from top to bottom. He was our game plan, he was our vision, our direction, he created a great chunk of our history, he was it all we didn't need no one else.
Now fast forward to today we have had 3 managers in 5 years all with the freedom to do things their way, buy who they want and try and implement their vision, end result we haven't bought wisely. Now most people are happy with what Mou is trying to build but what happens when he keeps true to his history, it would mean he will be gone in 18 months. Meaning that we get in someone new who maybe doesn't like all the big brawn players he has bought and wants more technical, smaller, agile players, well you see where I am going with this. Until Utd start setting up like the true big club they are we are going to continue going in circles like Liverpool have done.
If we look at RM, Barca, Bayern, the mangers don't have the run of the place, a certain style of play is expected and players are purchased to suit their style of play, meaning should the manager leave and a new one comes in the club stays on course. If we look at RM, they have had +/- the same team they had when Mou was there and since then have won the CL with different managers and when you watch them play, it doesn't matter who is on the sideline you know how they are going to setup and play, more or less like when SAF was in charge people knew what to expect on the field and everyone knew we would play a 4-4-2.
Now fast forward to today we have had 3 managers in 5 years all with the freedom to do things their way, buy who they want and try and implement their vision, end result we haven't bought wisely. Now most people are happy with what Mou is trying to build but what happens when he keeps true to his history, it would mean he will be gone in 18 months. Meaning that we get in someone new who maybe doesn't like all the big brawn players he has bought and wants more technical, smaller, agile players, well you see where I am going with this. Until Utd start setting up like the true big club they are we are going to continue going in circles like Liverpool have done.
If we look at RM, Barca, Bayern, the mangers don't have the run of the place, a certain style of play is expected and players are purchased to suit their style of play, meaning should the manager leave and a new one comes in the club stays on course. If we look at RM, they have had +/- the same team they had when Mou was there and since then have won the CL with different managers and when you watch them play, it doesn't matter who is on the sideline you know how they are going to setup and play, more or less like when SAF was in charge people knew what to expect on the field and everyone knew we would play a 4-4-2.
You make a lot of great points, £320m was wasted by LVG & Moyes and we have nothing to show for it apart from Martial which is scandalous.
I still think the lack of investment from 2009 to 2011 plays a part in our current problems. Ronaldo & Tevez left whilst Vidic, Rio, Evra, Scholes & Giggs were all heading for 30 or already there and money wasn't there to replace them with top players and instead he gambled on younger players which hasn't worked out.
Mourinho is getting there but he still could be another 18 months off from getting a squad to rival one of Fergie's best.
This is City’s squad
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-city/kader/verein/281/saison_id/2017/plus/1
Only 4 players from their squad joined before 2013. The rest were bought in from 2013 to now. The same period you claim we have to spent to acquire our squad.
This is our current squad
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/kader/verein/985/saison_id/2017/plus/1
7 players were bought before 2013.
£712M is the combined cost of our current players so players like Di Maria doeant affect that fivure at all.
I enjoyed reading that. Probably because I agree with you. Nice post.
I agree with you on many of the points you've made. I do think he needs a few more players to bridge the gap between us and Man City. I think he as overestimated the quality of players like Herrera.
Although, I have concerns over Lukaku's movement and overall play. I think a system change would help him, he looks very isolated up front. Hope is we can finish strong in 2nd place and have a decent Champions League run and rebuild again. - I think recruitment will be important because Man City are so comfortable on the ball I don't think signing tall players who are robust is enough. I think Man Utd need more players comfortable on the ball in tight situations. Counter attacks might work against teams like Arsenal they done for many years but teams like Chelsea and Man City are stronger. We need to find other ways to break teams down.
Nice post, agree with a lot of what you say.
In relation to the Mourinho as a defensive coach, although there are definitely aspects of this to his management style, I think a better way of describing him is as a reactive manager. I'd argue that for all the disappointing performances against our closest rivals we've had since he joined, we've put in some fantastic attacking displays against smaller clubs. I can't remember the exact number, but haven't we had more games in which we've scored 4 goals this season than the previous 3/4 seasons combined? This ties in with Mourinho's pragmatic approach; contain the best, beat the rest. Guardiola, Wenger and Klopp would all fall on the other side as more proactive managers in that they have a clear footballing philosophy they'll follow all the time and look to impose that style on whoever they're playing. Each plays a different strand of football but ultimately attempts to stick to it at all cost, although Wenger has adapted somewhat in previous years.
Mourinho will almost certainly feel more confident at playing attacking football against our closest rivals when Pogba - our only world-class outfield player - is available. Our results/performances with and without him this season attest to this. He's played once this season in a big match, away to Arsenal. We won 3-1 with great counter-attacking football. Take him out and you see the type of performances we can muster against the top sides. I really think it's that simple.
If we are looking post fergie era, spending from us and city has two big differences.
1) After fergie we needed nearly whole new squad. Lets be realistic, we all love fergie here, but his 2013 squad was built from former wc players that were at the end of their careers and squad players who were good for fergie and that precise era. City had core of players so while we needed to buy 20 players, they needed 10.
2) and this is where is completely our fault. We spent badly during van gaal. We bought so many players who are now either out of the club or are just solid squad players. Martial is only player bought who is class player.
Also in our defend; people must stop looking on how much money we spent because we earned decent sum for selling players.
1) After fergie we needed nearly whole new squad. Lets be realistic, we all love fergie here, but his 2013 squad was built from former wc players that were at the end of their careers and squad players who were good for fergie and that precise era. City had core of players so while we needed to buy 20 players, they needed 10.
2) and this is where is completely our fault. We spent badly during van gaal. We bought so many players who are now either out of the club or are just solid squad players. Martial is only player bought who is class player.
Also in our defend; people must stop looking on how much money we spent because we earned decent sum for selling players.
Last edited:
There were 3 teams capable of winning the league this year and unsurprisingly they are 1,2,3 presently. If United get to 42 or 44 points by the half way stage, which appears quite possible, then they will have performed well and consistent with being one of the favourites for the title. Chelsea might be under-performing a little, City are out-performing by a large degree. You cannot do anything about how well or badly your competition is doing, you can only do as well as you can yourself. Unless there is a mini-collapse before Christmas, United are doing as well as could be expected.
If they continue at this rate for the second half of the season they will be in for a shout at the end. City are highly unlikely to out-perform so much for the second half of the season, indeed Pep teams have a habit of falling away to some degree as the season goes on. The high press , swarming style he employs takes a physical toll eventually. And its unlikely City will be taking those little pills that the Barca medics prescribed, although looking at the 'eyes' on Sunday and their obvious 'high' it did make me wonder.
If they continue at this rate for the second half of the season they will be in for a shout at the end. City are highly unlikely to out-perform so much for the second half of the season, indeed Pep teams have a habit of falling away to some degree as the season goes on. The high press , swarming style he employs takes a physical toll eventually. And its unlikely City will be taking those little pills that the Barca medics prescribed, although looking at the 'eyes' on Sunday and their obvious 'high' it did make me wonder.
Last edited by a moderator:
You are being positive and using facts to back up your statement.
That won't go down well, here.
You need to be negative and moan about something.
There is six teams going for one position. That is where the problem lies. If Liverpool, City, Chelsea or ourselves had a monopoly like PSG and Bayern do, they/we would win the league comfortably every year.
Its true, @Green_Red. If you find yourself being in the awkward position of being relatively content as far as the football goes you are totally allowed to moan about other people moaning, that counts.
(Obviously the same goes for moaning about people moaning about people moaning. You can take that as far as you like, just as long as it is absolutely clear that you are unhappy about something.)
It has certainly been frustrating that whenever we have played a top side, Pogba has been unavailable, bar the Arsenal match.
Well, before Dortmund players come to the EPL, they look like they should do well.
After they move to the EPL, they tend to fall flat. They don't completely fail, they just lack the spark which was expected. The same is/has happened with Miki.
I think the best place for him is at Dortmund. The EPL really is too physical for him.
Herrera is a massive disappointment, from being talked about as a potential captain last year to his form dropping off a cliff this season, not sure how a manager can account for that. Mata and Mhiki have been other dissapointments too. Think we need to bring in some players with a bit more about them personality wise, feels like we have a fair few shrinking violets in the squad now.
Mate, it's be been so disappointing. This guy was a fan favourite, some earmarked him as a future captain. His regression has been quick and sudden. He looked fantastic in his first season, was chipping in with a few goals, now every shot looks like it will end up outside the stadium.
What's more frustrating to me is that we have a player who in my opinion is better than him playing on the wing in Spain. I really hope Mourinho brings Pereira and Fosu-Mensah back. I would love to see Fosu in DM. Pereira next to Matic/Pogba in a three man midfield maybe.
Same. Its a cliche, but players brought through the youth system tend to care a little more, look at the effort Lingard put into the derby, at least he knew what it meant. By all means spend big on bringing in top class talent like Martial, but I would move on a lot of the squad and give some of the youngsters coming through the chance to take their spots.
Agree entirely - I read an article not so long ago about the due diligence Premier League clubs undertake these days, going into minute detail to make sure that any potential signings have the mental strength and personality traits to succeed at the top level. Well it would appear to me that we possibly aren't doing that given the failure rate of so many of our transfers. You look at the likes of Mhiki and Shaw and Schneiderlin and Di Maria and you have to wonder whether their personalities and traits were taken into account before lavishing tens of millions on them.
It wouldn't entirely surprise me if we weren't doing that kind of thing bearing in mind we managed to botch Ferguson's successor (one of the worst sporting/business decisions in modern history) and our general lagging in developing the training ground/stadium etc.
I said 2012-2015, how many of City’s current squad where pre-2015?
It doesn’t matter how you try and spin it, Jose was left with a total mess. A squad of 23 players of which most where bang average, some where past it, some too young and all of them seemingly signed at random based on who was available at the time.
Since Jose has come in, he has had to address every element of our squad bar GK. That means CBs, CMs, AMs and Strikers. All incredibly expensive positions.
Pep needed two full backs, a GK and a CB. GK and FBs are the two cheapest positions to fill.
This is the problem with statistics without context.
By my quick calculation the team that faced City cost about £300m
This isn’t a dig at Jose. I think he did okay so far. Not outstanding with his signings but much better then his predecessors. But ultimately as a club we wasted a lot of money while making a lot of questionable decisions. We have no right to say we couldn’t compete with city and psg because we didn’t have the fund or pay the wages.
84 points isn't going to have you as favourite for the title. Spurs got 86 last season and very few though this was their year. It will get you a comfortable 2nd though.
The amount of money that's spent to play this kind of football. At home. Not against City, Madrid, or Arsenal, nope. Bournemouth.
Rashford is massively overrated here. He is still very young and improving, but he wouldn't start on any of the top 5 maybe 6 clubs. Yet he starts for us. That tells you something. Rashford plays as much as he does, primarily because we have no better options.