Unlucky he wasn't born talented.
Using money as an excuse
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Why is it so difficult to grasp that the majority of world class players in the City/Madrid squads were bought before the massive price inflation? City got Silva/Aguero/Yaya/Kompany for less than 100m, a 23 year old Aguero would cost more than that alone these days. How much do you think Ronaldo would be worth in today's market if he was at the same age he'd left United, more than Neymar for sure.
Money is one of the reasons City are doing well yes, however like it or not they are a very well run club with football people making football decisions. They have been planning for Pep's arrival for years and they're seeing the results. In the meantime we hired Moyes and LVG, spent money on dross. This is what worries me, not the fact that they are currently better than us.
Jeez after every loss or dropped points , we see these same boring threads.
Was listening to a podcast yesterday where one journalist (attends the press conferences for the written press, can't remember the name) pointed out that City's 2nd striker was better than our 1st striker, with them having Aguero on the bench. He also elaborated on the different levels of quality both managers inherited. Our style of play takes into account the players available and the opposition. Add 2-3-4 top quality players in that first XI and we're no longer defensive against top teams.
People are going to have to accept that going defensive against big teams is just what Mourinho does. Having better players would not change that. He even did it with Real.
City bought him when Mourinho was at United. In fact United had an option to sign him for a cheaper price than City paid.
You forgot that United just started investing in 2014 which City started in 2008. During SAF era 2008, we didn't invest much as we do in 2014. It took Real Madrid 5 years to become a one of strongest in Europe after spending 230m in 2009 and continue spending.
During SAF era post-2008 to 2013, City spent 460m net, Real Madrid spent 312m net, Chelsea spent 260m net and United only spent 86m net which is a huge difference in spending compared to a top club. It cost us a mistake of not competing with them in spending and at that time we had an ageing squad and it needs a huge overhaul. That's why we fell quickly.
However, How many years it took City becoming stronger and how much does it take City to become the best team? In order to do that, you need to spend much in many years so you can become the best team, it worked for Barca, PSG, Chelsea, Real Madrid and City. Spending a lot of money in one transfer window doesn't strength the club to be overwhelming stronger overnight, it takes a long time in order to be the best team and continue spending level.
I could argue Moye and LVG had disaster transfer window, many of the players did not live to its tag price. Jose had brilliant transfer window barring Mihki and still need to get more quality players to make United a finished product, it's only a matter of time before we become the top club in Europe.
During SAF era post-2008 to 2013, City spent 460m net, Real Madrid spent 312m net, Chelsea spent 260m net and United only spent 86m net which is a huge difference in spending compared to a top club. It cost us a mistake of not competing with them in spending and at that time we had an ageing squad and it needs a huge overhaul. That's why we fell quickly.
However, How many years it took City becoming stronger and how much does it take City to become the best team? In order to do that, you need to spend much in many years so you can become the best team, it worked for Barca, PSG, Chelsea, Real Madrid and City. Spending a lot of money in one transfer window doesn't strength the club to be overwhelming stronger overnight, it takes a long time in order to be the best team and continue spending level.
I could argue Moye and LVG had disaster transfer window, many of the players did not live to its tag price. Jose had brilliant transfer window barring Mihki and still need to get more quality players to make United a finished product, it's only a matter of time before we become the top club in Europe.
I've seen Jose park the bus with a Madrid side packed with attacking talent vs Barca. Even going as far as playing a defender in midfield. Needless to say its almost impossible for us to put together that quality of attacking talent given the inflation of prices, we are going to have to accept that this is how we'll play against teams of that kind for the foreseeable future.
Those Journalist's are wrong Imo. I've said before I'd have Rashford any day over Jesus.
He was referring to Aguero being better than Lukaku.
The majority of top teams start the playing with the keeper passing the ball to full back.
What is it with fans and net spend? If Liverpool sell Coutinho for 200m next summer and spend 300m at that same time, using net spend wouldn't accurately reflect how much they spent.
United have always been big spenders compared to the rest of the league, sure its money generated by the club but its all the same in my view.
In the 90s big fees were paid for the likes of Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke, Jaap Stam and Roy Keane.
Early 2000s, Rooney, Van Nistelrooy, Ferdinand and Veron were all bought for huge fees at the time. Paying that much for a central defender was unheard of at the time. Not to mention spending 30 million pounds on Berbatov when the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez were all still at the club.
A few of those players were bought from other clubs within the League as well, so there was a dual benefit to those transfers, gain a great player and simultaneously weaken your rivals/potential rivals. I'm just glad our board stood firm and didn't sell the likes of Tony Adams or Vieira to you lot.
I don't mean any of this as an attack on anyone, its just borderline surprising for me to hear fans of a club that has continually flexed its financial muscles for the past 25 years plus act like said flexing is only a recent phenomenon or complain about City's spending without a hint of irony.
That's just Pep not being sane about things, don't get why he sometimes plays Aguero or doesn't. Aguero isn't an outright second choice though, he starts plenty of matches for them, certainly enough for him not to have an official second choice tag.
I feel like we lack a long-term vision of where we want to be, and the fact that we’ve gone through 3 different managers in the last 4 years hasn’t helped. Every new manager brings his own players and then when a new manager comes in, the rebuilding job starts anew.
Definitely agree there. While I do think Jesus is a level above Rashford in terms of talent and long term potential, Rashford is obviously incredibly talented himself and would thrive more in a better system. Biggest one this goes for is Martial. Pep is making Sterling look like a world class player, he made Douglas Costa and Kingsley Coman look like brilliant players. It's what he does, he gets his wingers very high up the pitch and in great positions with plenty of options in the box and around so they can create 1v1 or 2v1 opportunities and feed chances to everyone. Martial would kill in a system like that. As it is he has done really well anyway and showing how good he is, but even more so. People blame a lack of quality but I think it's really just the wrong tactics to get the most out of them. Look at the 4 behind the striker for City - Sane, De bruyne, Silva, Sterling. 2 pacey wingers to stretch the pitch and good dribblers, de bruyne is world class obviously and Silva quality on the ball and excellent control. Then they have Jesus up top. If you look at what we have - Martial/Rashford for the left wing and the other striker, pogba for De Bruyne, Mata for David Silva, and then lacking a right winger (though like others say, we had every chance to sign Sane, Mane, Salah and chose not to). The most frustrating thing for me is looking back at the end of LvG's time here and thinking we could have brought in Pep and been the ones looking like the best team in the world right now. It's not a case at all of him having a better foundation at City before he came in. He's replaced almost the entire team. We've been building for the wrong type of team and it's why we'll always be underdogs for the big competitions with Mourinho, playing defensively, rather then going to build a team that can dominate any opponent.
The lack of offensive cohesion many complain about has got very little to do with spending (or not spending enough, more precisely). A lack of focus on (or interest in) training/drilling attacking moves is something many have identified as a weakness of José’s over the years.
Yes, you can “fix” it by inserting yer Robbens or Ronaldos into the team but that is not an argument in favour of José – more an admission of his shortcomings (in that particular area – in other areas he is the best in the business, nobody will deny that).
Anyway, as someone said above, we saw a very similar argument being brought up under LVG (well, before the great majority turned on him): It’s not the system, it’s a lack of individual quality. And it doesn’t really fly. What looks like random attacking and a general lack of purpose is down to coaching, not individual quality. And, as such, it is a weakness of the system, it’s very hard to see it as anything else.
Yes, you can “fix” it by inserting yer Robbens or Ronaldos into the team but that is not an argument in favour of José – more an admission of his shortcomings (in that particular area – in other areas he is the best in the business, nobody will deny that).
Anyway, as someone said above, we saw a very similar argument being brought up under LVG (well, before the great majority turned on him): It’s not the system, it’s a lack of individual quality. And it doesn’t really fly. What looks like random attacking and a general lack of purpose is down to coaching, not individual quality. And, as such, it is a weakness of the system, it’s very hard to see it as anything else.
Probably would've distracted a few of their players
It's not an excuse but it's certainly a factor. We had an inferior squad to City prior to both teams changing managers and they have invested more heavily since. We have made obvious progress in the last year, expecting us to be the best team in Europe (which looks to begrudgingly to be the case right now) is a bit unreasonable.
Anyone doubting his talent is blind. It's his commitment, body and mentality that is rightfully called into question.
It's a bad excuse.
Being committed and having a strong mentality is part of being talented.
Henderson is some talent then!
Must have been a fluke that he was the best left back in the league while at Southampton.
He was 18, he wasn't the best left back in the league but came off a very good season just breaking through (in a season with a huge dearth of quality at left back anyway). The second he got his transfer to United, his mentality by all accounts went to shit pretty much. Actually he got criticized before that for his mentality and training, so it was probably once he started getting all the plaudits in the first place and he thought he made it.
He was in the team of the season as a left back. He was the best left back in the league, hence why the two biggest clubs in the league were after his signature.
That's my point entirely:
I'm pretty sure if you take City's and United's ideal starting 11s United's is just about as expensive as City and the attacking players are actually much more expensive. The difference is most of the money goes to only a couple players in Pogba and Lukaku where it is more spread out in City's squad. Calculated this early in the season will try to find them.
Since 2010, Man City have spent 359.6M euros more on transfers than United. We're catching up from the Glazers terrible mismanagement over the club. It will take at least two more years of spending to be at the proper level.
I think the amount of money or the lack of it in itself can't be used as an excuse since United surely has a great youth system with teenagers ready to break into the team just waiting for an opportunity. Regarding the spendings, I think the activity of the board in the 2009/10 season and in the two van gaal's seasons were terrible, the money the club got for Ronaldo wasn't used for anything really and RVP could have been sold after the last world cup for a much higher fee than after that disastrous season and i'm pretty sure Di Maria left for less money than he came in, plus the club shoud have known better instead of trying the Bastian gamble. United probably never looked at Mane, Sane, Alexis or any really great player since the RVP signing when they were cheaper to get. In short, the current board and the last few boards do not have a good eye for the market.
in 2 seasons Pep has bought 12 major players at a cost of around £400m (figures from Transfermarkt)
compare Jose - 7 players at around £300m
that's the only comparison that is of any interest really IMO and based on that alone its not so surprising that City's squad is stronger than ours - that's before you even get into a discussion about who had the bigger rebuilding job when they started
compare Jose - 7 players at around £300m
that's the only comparison that is of any interest really IMO and based on that alone its not so surprising that City's squad is stronger than ours - that's before you even get into a discussion about who had the bigger rebuilding job when they started
Problem is not the lack of money, but not spending it well. It have been a problem since SAF. Mourinho has done alright, but he is not great in the market. Clubs also know we got the money and push up the value of the players. Can be really tricky then to get the right players. We need to be able to get them in one step ahead.
Unfortunately yes, thats what all the other top teams do, I mean, how much have city spent on their defence and its still not great.
I read that the reason that City aren't being investigated is because of their net spend. They have recouped a lot of money from outgoing transfers under Pep. Also, someone might correct me on this but it's how I read it, transfer costs are amortised over the length of the contract, so if you sign a 100 mil player on 5 year contract, the cost is amortised as 20 mil across the 5 seasons. This is how UEFA FFP is worked out. I could have gotten that wrong. If thats the case, then its understandable why PSG would be investigated for Neymar and Mbappe signings, but City would be excluded. So I guess it's kind of a fair playing field. We could easily outspend them if we wanted if thats the case.
SAF said teams needed major reconstruction every 3 to 4 years. Obviously he was around long enough to tweak every season so never had to do it all in one go. We saw when Van Gaal attempted this in his first transfer window just how difficult it can be.
In that context, the above is the most compelling fact explaining that City are ahead because they have better resources and a fundamentally stronger base.
This should not come as any surprise: SAF almost always had the most valuable team, even if some were homegrown and free of transfer cost. When another team was able to out spend, they often won the league (Blackburn, Chelsea, City).
There comes a point when you can only improve in tiny increments. Given City's unprecedented investments culminating in this historic start to a season, they seem very close to that.
To compete with City on a truly even keel, the club needs to outspend City over this winter and next summer transfer windows, and make 100% right choices. We need to be honest that we have sufficient quality: a useful guide would be ensuring the sqaud is as strong and robust as SAF had in 2008 or Mourinho had at Madrid.
Only then can we see if Pep's ideology is better than Mourinho's.
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I agree that we seem to be making positive steps by hiring top scouts recently. But we need to do a lot more than this, a club of our size and statue should be able to afford the best scouts and youth coaches out there. Their wages are peanuts compare to the players'.
The point of my last paragraph is we are viewed and run as a business, investment into our squad is done so we can maintain our popularity to grow more income and win more commercial contracts. The people at the top are not driven by winning as many trophies as possible or create a brand of football that will dominate. They invest so we remain at the top so long as it doesn't hurt us commercially. The moment our commercial income is at risk we panic and splurge out on players. I know success on the field and commercial success go hand in hand however it's a small difference between us or Bayern or Barca or Madrid. They focus on being the best at football and their commercial success follow. We focus on how to earn more and more money and if it means we need to invest in our squad to do so we will do it. But without a clear vision and long term strategy at the club it won't work. Which proved to be the case in the last 4 years.
The figure is only our current squad cost not what we spent so it doesn't include any players who we sold.
This thread is not about us underperforming this seaon. I do agree with we are doing fine this season and Jose has made great progress in short term. I haven't seen enough changes to believe that long term we are getting better. This thread is to look at the fact is our current squad is one of the most expensive squad ever and one of the highest wage bill ever. So there is no excuse for us to use money or the lack of as the reason why we can't compete. It's a
Well I didn't actually say we should win the league because our squad cost £712M my argument is when you don't win the league with a £712M you don't cry out loud that we have no money to compete. We had the money and we blew it. That's what happened.
We bought really really badly when SAF was here too. It's not like it changed when he left.
One of the things I am optimistic about is that a lot of our high profile signings have been young players. Pogba, Lukaku, Martial, Bailly are all early 20s, are going to be the core of our team going forward and are only going to get better. Then you have Rashford of course. Lindeløf, De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Rojo all being in a decent age as well.
Oh absolutely. Especially in his latter years. But I guess having the best manager ever on the pitch glossed over it.
Fair enough, I took your post to mean since he left it all changed - my bad.
All this really stared when SAF entered his conservative value phase. Underinvested in key areas and replaced star players from the 08 team with limited players. All while the likes of City/Chelsea were investing in Aguero, Silva, Hazard.