First time I’ve ever heard the “clear and obvious error” excuse used about an offside call.
VAR and Refs | General Discussion | May 15: Premier League clubs to vote on proposal to scrap VAR from next season
- Thread starter Samid
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Despite playing against nine men for most of the game I still think we were fecked over by VAR 
It’s always been there, just that we haven’t had too many decisions and now they’re coming at us. In these decision, the matter isn’t whether the player was offside or not, but whether the player was active or not. That is a subjective element of the offside ruling where different refs can make different interpretation as opposed to the objective or factual element which is “is player in offside position?”, which isn’t a matter of interpretation and doesn’t require the ref to go to the monitor.
Well that’s a general criticism I can agree with. Last season there was a penalty against Newcastle from a corner where it took the ref 27 replays to decide whether it was clear and obvious.
The bar is definitely the problem there because where do you draw the line between simply “clear” and “clear and obvious”?
I would bin VAR at this point. They are using it terribly and it stops the flow of the game completely.
Barring the 2 footed lunge, I think VAR got pretty much everything spot on tonight but it takes far too long and is killing the game, refs don't want to make decisions anymore it seems.
I don't think overall its helping, the arguments we used to have about a dodgy ref/linesman has just been replaced by chatting about VAR and the carry on of certain managers regarding some decisions isn't helping either.
It's here to stay so we just have to get on with it I suppose but the debate isn't gonna go away.
I don't think overall its helping, the arguments we used to have about a dodgy ref/linesman has just been replaced by chatting about VAR and the carry on of certain managers regarding some decisions isn't helping either.
It's here to stay so we just have to get on with it I suppose but the debate isn't gonna go away.
But that’s what I mean, it can’t be a clear and obvious error if it takes them so long to make a decision on it. Its obviously not clear or obvious
I'm sick and tired of goals being ruled out because the goalscorer's earlobe was half an inch ahead of the defender. If you need to draw lines on a fecking stillshot in order to determine if he was offside, the player didn't get any advantages from his position. The intended purpose of the offside rule is to encourage attacking play by ensuring that a player can't just loiter perpetually near the opponent's box and force them to keep defenders around him at all times. The way the rule is being enforced is totally against the spirit of its purpose.
Feels like half of goals scored these days are ruled out by offside, and very few of them needed to be. Players have no way of knowing or controlling if they're offside by such a small amount that it literally requires technology and a dedicated team to detect it. It's completely incidental and arbitrary, and by ruling these goals out, a huge element of luck is added to the game. So many matches are decided by this shit. When someone scores a goal, there's almost no chance that they wouldn't have scored it if the last defender had been half an inch further ahead. It has no bearing on anything. These aren't goals that could only happen because the player was offside.
This is one of the worst things about modern football. Microscopic, arbitrary margins deciding the outcome of a game for no reason at all. They need to change it to where it isn't offside if it takes technology and a team of experts to determine it. Anything that can't be gleaned from an ordinary video replay is too inconsequential to warrant cancelling the goal. Football's entertainment value has taken a massive hit from this.
Feels like half of goals scored these days are ruled out by offside, and very few of them needed to be. Players have no way of knowing or controlling if they're offside by such a small amount that it literally requires technology and a dedicated team to detect it. It's completely incidental and arbitrary, and by ruling these goals out, a huge element of luck is added to the game. So many matches are decided by this shit. When someone scores a goal, there's almost no chance that they wouldn't have scored it if the last defender had been half an inch further ahead. It has no bearing on anything. These aren't goals that could only happen because the player was offside.
This is one of the worst things about modern football. Microscopic, arbitrary margins deciding the outcome of a game for no reason at all. They need to change it to where it isn't offside if it takes technology and a team of experts to determine it. Anything that can't be gleaned from an ordinary video replay is too inconsequential to warrant cancelling the goal. Football's entertainment value has taken a massive hit from this.
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I have very little understanding of the meaningless thresholds that are put in place, which pretty much leads to scenarios where a split second decision on the pitch determines what VAR can/can’t do. Maybe the end result would’ve been the same if the linesman had kept his flag down, that they either way would’ve concluded that Jackson’s offside position had a negative effect on Vicario, but the crux of it all should be for VAR to have a look at the angles to determine interference and then let the referee look at it.
Funnily enough, this also brings me back to VAR in our match against Brighton, where the linesman kept his flag down for Højlunds goal but VAR, without proper angles, determines that the ball has gone out.
I understand the concept, but for me it feels rather bizarre that the linesmans view from the side trumps a video review from multiple angles that will give clear indication if the goalkeepers view is in any way blocked by the player in offside. Yes, the Chelsea player is offside, but is he actually interfearing? No idea, as they showed very few replays from behind, but the standard replay pretty much show Vicario dive early in the right direction. For me, it would be far more natural to first verify if he’s offside or not, to check the decision of the linesman, then determine if he’s interfering with play or not, to the point where they can direct the referee to the screen.
I have very little understanding of the meaningless thresholds that are put in place, which pretty much leads to scenarios where a split second decision on the pitch determines what VAR can/can’t do. Maybe the end result would’ve been the same if the linesman had kept his flag down, that they either way would’ve concluded that Jackson’s offside position had a negative effect on Vicario, but the crux of it all should be for VAR to have a look at the angles to determine interference and then let the referee look at it.
Funnily enough, this also brings me back to VAR in our match against Brighton, where the linesman kept his flag down for Højlunds goal but VAR, without proper angles, determines that the ball has gone out.
I find it difficult to understand how referees in England are interpreting serious foul play. Or maybe i find it difficult to understand why they are interpreting it like they are. For me, it seems like the current interpretation completely goes against what the rule is all about. Take Nketiah against Vicario, or more recently Havertz against Longstaff and Udogie against Sterling. These are horror tackles where players lunge in with a lot of force and subsequently high damage potential to the opponent, Udogie was literally in air with both feet and studs directed at the ball, the only reason he doesn’t hit Sterling is because Sterling sees the tackle and pulls out of going for the ball. We’re talking extremely fine margins between potential horror injuries and just missing the player. Yet, has there been a single red card in recent years unless the player actually connects with the opponent? Go in with little pace, accidentally roll over the ball with your foot and connect with someones shin and it’s likely to be a red card, go flying in recklessly with studs showing at full pace where you marginally miss the opponent and it’s a yellow. I have no idea what is being done elsewhere in Europe, but the understanding of «endangering the safety of the opponent» really seems to be misunderstood these days.
James on Udogie, the latter doesn’t make anything out of it, but James jumps in with his elbow directed at Udogies head and connects. Again, endangering the safety of the opponent? I’m glad we’re not back to 2006 where the slightest touch on someones face resulted in a red card, like Rooney against Porto, but i don’t think it was much of a coincidence that James went in like that on Udogie after his tackle attempt on Sterling. Same with Bruno against Jorginho.
But there isn’t a viable solution. I agree that it’s completely arbitrary for the vast majority of situations if a player is off by centimetres, like Garnacho’s overturned goal against Arsenal, Maguire in offside against Fulham, but the problem is still that no matter where you decide to draw the lines, all you essentially do is create a new setpoint for the same debate about marginal offsides. So you’re allowed to be 50cm offside, they will still draw lines to conclude which side you are on. I’d be happy to see a rule change where they look at the most backward point of the attacking to determine offsides rather than the forward point, aka no air between players, but this won’t eliminate what seem to annoy people the most. I still think it would remove the most annoying situations, but i could easily be wrong.
Clear and obvious is a big part of the problem. The system is not set up to make the right call, its set up to protect the on-field referee and since its implemented so poorly all it does is make everybody look like shit.
They need to start over, from first principles. The point of VAR should be to help the on-field referee make the correct call. All referees are going to miss a lot of calls and nobody should feel bad about that, as its a a very difficult game to referee. The VAR should come into play anytime on a goal, penalty situation, or red card situations where there is a substantial possibility that the on-field call was incorrect. The referee should immediately go to a viewing screen, as in the NFL, and the VAR officials and the referee should talk to each in real time about what they are seeing and which call seems most correct. Limit each review to two minutes maximum.
NFL, NBA, lots of other sports manage to do this kind of thing very competently and don't need massive amounts of time. The referees huddle quickly, have good production people who can immediately summon all the relevant angles and replays, and then they methodically talk through the relevant questions given the issue at hand. These sports aren't easier to referee, they just have better systems in place. Its not rocket science. If anybody is worried about having too many disruptions, let each team have 2-3 requested reviews per match maximum and after that tough luck.
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Agree
So Arsenal are sending FA all the VAR decisions that went against them. I wish ETH would also be ruthless and hard on officials.
I was thinking this. Someone, somewhere, watched their first ever game of football tonight, spurs v Chelsea. Are they interested in watching another game?I genuinely don't think I would've fallen in love with football as I did when I was young if it was like this back then. Var is a fecking shambles. Ruling out Caicedos goal for Jackson marginally being offside, when he is somewhat in the line of the keeper, despite being pretty much at the edge of the box.. honestly it makes me sick seeing shit like that, what the hell are we doing here
100% Agree
In all honesty no. The inconsistency would infuriate me. But the offside itself wouldn't because it's irrelevant. Its bad enough that we rule goals out for goalscorers being marginally offside based of a flawed system. But to now be calling offsides using the same flawed technology for players deemed to be interfering when they don't actually touch the ball, is daft.
When a player is marginally offside how on earth have they gained an advantage when there deemed to be interfering without touching the ball? Because it's marginal there going to be there anyway.
It feel like the refs are over compensating from the Akanji one and maybe even the Rashford one in the derby last season. Both should of been ruled out where a player who was clearly a long way behind the defensive line has gained an advantage for there team. But in both those situations the players were miles offside. Not marginal, not pretty much on the defensive line.
Caicedo's disallowed goal last night is another example, Jackson is marginally offside but somehow he is interfering with play by blocking the goalkeepers vision. He quite clearly wasn't and he is going to be there anyway if he was onside he would be in the exact same location, so how can that be deemed as gaining an advantage from being 5cm behind the defensive line?
Mad that they did it in the VAR room.
If Arsenal and Liverpool cared about referee standards rather than their own points, they would release these statements when the decision didn't involve their team.
So “clear and obvious error” is “a big part of the problem” with VAR but going with “substantial possibility that the on-field call was incorrect” instead makes that problem go away? Hmmmm…
VAR in its current form only spoils the game, this system needs improvement. I would leave it now only to determine offside and measure it by feet, not nose length, fingernails or anything else.
Not much football on show last night, especially the first half. It was all handbags and VAR checks with a sprinkle of football on the side. Genuinely crazy first half. The second half resembled a hockey power play more than a real football game.
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looks like the moral ground he takes is as high as his team’s backline.
I think at this point we need to. We're getting shafted by the refs/VAR almost every week now since we got away with a big one on the first gameweek of the season.
To think that there’s a bunch of United fans who would prefer our manager to behave like that gobshite, Arteta, than this bloke?
Have a word with yourselves, will you?
There ws one of those Jackson goals last night doesn't really feel right to be given. He was well offside when the ball was played out to the right side then he started running a bit, checked his run and then scored.
He had a clear advantage on the defender and got into an onside position only after having a few metres start on the defender. Obviously it's technically within the rules but just doesn't seem right that that can stand.
He had a clear advantage on the defender and got into an onside position only after having a few metres start on the defender. Obviously it's technically within the rules but just doesn't seem right that that can stand.
Exactly.
Morals FC
That's the whole "phases of play" thing and I don't like it either. To me if an attacker is offside at any point in a developing attack then it should be given as offside if and when he gets involved in that attack.
First time I seen a goal like that was RVN for the Netherlands in Euro’04. There was some controversy around it at the time but it’s been an accepted part of the game the last 20 years.
I mean yeah, it's good he said that - but then he could hardly have a pop at VAR/the Refs after that? Both red cards were nailed on.
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Another demotion inc?
Every single match devolves into a talk about VAR. Even if the decisions arent controversial its all about VAR.
Time to get rid of the damn thing.
Time to get rid of the damn thing.
Love Ange as a manager. What he's said is spot on.
I'd be fuming if Ten Hag started crying like Arteta.
To be fair. That little shove when you're about to shoot is enough to knock you off balance and put the ball wide like that. If he doesn't get touched, chances are he at least hits the target.
The fact that he tries to push/grab him from behind as he's just about to shoot, just about makes that penalty for me, if he threw himself to the ground he's not getting it. A rare occasion of a player being rewarded for their honesty in the box.
I think the Spurs manager makes a decent point.
Everyone is constantly on the referees and VAR's back these days, Is it any wonder they have started second guessing themselves and spending an age trying to make sure they make the right decision.
Being useless cannot help either
Everyone is constantly on the referees and VAR's back these days, Is it any wonder they have started second guessing themselves and spending an age trying to make sure they make the right decision.
Being useless cannot help either
You don't think a lot of managers would have moaned about the Romero red card? He played the ball before the player, after all. Half the caf lost their minds about Casemiro's red card for exactly that reason. Then there was the elbow from James. And it's not as though Arteta lost his shit because of an indisputable refereeing error.
but they almost never give it unless other player dives.
The thing I don't get is why the ref stands around only to then be told minutes later to come look at the screen. Just go to the screen and make a joint decision.
Likewise why do they check each incident one by one, if they know they need to do two checks just do them at the same time.
I think VAR is great personally but they do need to look at doing things in a smarter fashion.
Likewise why do they check each incident one by one, if they know they need to do two checks just do them at the same time.
I think VAR is great personally but they do need to look at doing things in a smarter fashion.
Ange is fecking mint. Pained me when he was Celtic manager as I really admired him