VAR and Refs | General Discussion

Out of the 3 soft ones this week, the AWB is more of a penalty than the others

however, the more I watch it, the more you see that Elliot has put his leg deliberately there, he could have stayed on his feet, he dived.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Football is the only sport in the world where you’re encouraged to cheat to gain an advantage

The referees are shit, but you’ve got 22 players constantly trying to cheat, lie about corners, throw ins, feigning injury, time wasting.

Nothing will change until there’s a huge overhaul of player behaviour. Stop encouraging the cheating and you’ll get better refereeing performances
 
Dalot's was never a penalty but this was pretty clear even if he played for it. It was a stupid lunge and he should know better.
 
Oranges038 said:
Of course you would, just like the Jesus one yesterday, these aren't worthy penalties according to folk on here. Whether or not Elliot "buys" it by putting his leg down is another matter, but he's lunged in and not got anywhere near the ball.

There was also people looking for fouls on Rashford when he was outmuscled by Walker and the Forrest players brushing him off the ball. But sliding in and wiping a player out while also not getting anywhere near the ball is somehow not a penalty.
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He didn’t wipe him out though. He slides in, completely misses and takes out Elliott because he sees him coming and leaves his right foot dangling behind to connect with Bissaka. Clever by Elliott and stupid of Bissaka. Not to mention this is after he has passed the ball to a teammate in a better position.

i thought there wasnt much in the Walker - Rashford situation, should have done better to stay on his feet, but when you see the level of contact for the penalties that Chelsea were awarded then you’d be daft not to question why Rashford got feck all.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
I'm just not sure about the Dalot one, and the fact VAR looked for so long makes me think they weren't either.
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At this point it would genuinely be a fairer system if refs weren't allowed to point to the spot themselves and VAR had to make the decision for them, because it's basically impossible for VAR to overturn any decisions if there is the tiniest bit of contact whether it is manufactured by the attacker or not.

We won't get any more penalties ourselves, but at least the bar would be a bit higher for penalties against us. The Madueke and Elliott dives are particularly annoying, because they had either run out of space, or overrun the ball and even if they had actually been fouled they weren't in dangerous positions at all. The punishment really doesn't fit the crime in these situations and given that diving in the box is now basically fair game, surely indirect free kicks would be a better punishment for players running away from goal and taking a tumble.

Imagine the outrage if Liverpool conceded 3 penalties like that in a week. Against Chelsea, Van Dijk made 2 tackles in the box that were clearer penalties than anything we've seen over the past few days and there was barely a peep about them not being given after the game.

We're bad enough already without also having to play against divers, gullible refs and the media.
 
VAR is not fit for purpose as things stand.

If the referee makes a decision then 99% of the time VAR will not go against him even if its blatant.

If the referee does not make a decision then VAR will go into overdrive looking for something to do.

Its a complete mess, typical Premiership officials, they turn something straight forward into a circus.

Need specialised people in the VAR room, people that have nothing to do with the referees otherwise we just get mates helping out mates.
 
11101 said:
Actually hadn't seen that angle, yeah should have been overruled.

Still fecking stupid to lunge like that though.
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Never mind over ruling, how does VAR not chat to the ref and say “did you give that because you felt AWB took Elliotts leg?”

Ref “yes I did”.

VAR “in THAT case, I recommend you go to the screen because he didn’t”.

This is where VAR is shit. It’s not just clear and obvious rule (which is stupid), it’s that VAR is not asking refs what the decision was for and then helping them. It’s not clear and obvious, it’s arbitrary.

If I was United, I’d ask for the audio of that discussion at the next press conference and play that video.

It’s arguably worse than the shit Chelsea were given, at least there was defender initiated contact for those (though both still never penalties).

These and the Fulham game and the Arsenal game have cost us several points and the media are still fecking moaning about Wolves and referencing Onana punch from the start of the season
 
Just saw the replay again......bad lunge but that should of been overturned by VAR. Pathetic. Can't wait to hear their excuse about this one.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Never mind over ruling, how does VAR not chat to the ref and say “did you give that because you felt AWB took Elliotts leg?”

Ref “yes I did”.

VAR “in THAT case, I recommend you go to the screen because he didn’t”.

This is where VAR is shit. It’s not just clear and obvious rule (which is stupid), it’s that VAR is not asking refs what the decision was for and then helping them. It’s not clear and obvious, it’s arbitrary.

If I was United, I’d ask for the audio of that discussion at the next press conference and play that video.

It’s arguably worse than the shit Chelsea were given, at least there was defender initiated contact for those (though both still never penalties).

These and the Fulham game and the Arsenal game have cost us several points and the media are still fecking moaning about Wolves and referencing Onana punch from the start of the season
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This is it isn't it? The discussions and the reasoning have to be available.
 
11101 said:
Actually hadn't seen that angle, yeah should have been overruled.

Still fecking stupid to lunge like that though.
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It was a brainless lunge inside of the box, and the Liverpool player was without of the doubt looking for a foul but I don't understand why the VAR didn't call the ref over.
 
NotChatGPT said:
He didn’t wipe him out though. He slides in, completely misses and takes out Elliott because he sees him coming and leaves his right foot dangling behind to connect with Bissaka. Clever by Elliott and stupid of Bissaka. Not to mention this is after he has passed the ball to a teammate in a better position.

i thought there wasnt much in the Walker - Rashford situation, should have done better to stay on his feet, but when you see the level of contact for the penalties that Chelsea were awarded then you’d be daft not to question why Rashford got feck all.
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You're winning 2-1 with about 5 mins left, it's absolutely stupid to dive into that tackle in the box. Elliott does dangle the leg, but even if he doesn't he's not avoiding contact with AWB.

It's brain dead defending and braindead defending has cost Utd 7 points in 3 games this last week.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
And this is just ridiculous. To not send him to the monitor to look at it again ….

It’s getting to the point where a team walks off. I’ve never been a fan of things like that because I’ve always though stuff evens out and most calls are grey… VAR stopped that

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What is the point of VAR if they don’t intervene there? Struggling to understand why teams don’t threaten to go on strike until it’s abolished, it’s been years now and it’s not getting better.
 
Oranges038 said:
You're winning 2-1 with about 5 mins left, it's absolutely stupid to dive into that tackle in the box. Elliott does dangle the leg, but even if he doesn't he's not avoiding contact with AWB.

It's brain dead defending and braindead defending has cost Utd 7 points in 3 games this last week.
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I thought the same but actually it wasn’t that bad an attempt, he was side on and tried to poke the ball away, then fell behind him. If Elliot didn’t throw his leg backwards and then flop forwards it would have been fine. Just a missed attempt at poking the ball, he wasn’t sliding into him or anything.
 
Oranges038 said:
You're winning 2-1 with about 5 mins left, it's absolutely stupid to dive into that tackle in the box. Elliott does dangle the leg, but even if he doesn't he's not avoiding contact with AWB.

It's brain dead defending and braindead defending has cost Utd 7 points in 3 games this last week.
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his whole body turns following the ball then he angles his trailing leg into wan bisakka I don’t know how you can argue “he’s not avoiding contact” if that was true he wouldn’t have had to trail his leg like that
 
Lexicon Red Devil said:
At this point it would genuinely be a fairer system if refs weren't allowed to point to the spot themselves and VAR had to make the decision for them, because it's basically impossible for VAR to overturn any decisions if there is the tiniest bit of contact whether it is manufactured by the attacker or not.

We won't get any more penalties ourselves, but at least the bar would be a bit higher for penalties against us. The Madueke and Elliott dives are particularly annoying, because they had either run out of space, or overrun the ball and even if they had actually been fouled they weren't in dangerous positions at all. The punishment really doesn't fit the crime in these situations and given that diving in the box is now basically fair game, surely indirect free kicks would be a better punishment for players running away from goal and taking a tumble.

Imagine the outrage if Liverpool conceded 3 penalties like that in a week. Against Chelsea, Van Dijk made 2 tackles in the box that were clearer penalties than anything we've seen over the past few days and there was barely a peep about them not being given after the game.

We're bad enough already without also having to play against divers, gullible refs and the media.
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It's weird because I can see why the ref gave them both, and in real time I called the AWB as not been a pen, and the Dalot one as dead cert for one, where in reality I think the Elliot one was just about a pen, whereas the Dalot one I don't think it was, so I can see why the refs have such a hard time with it.

I'll never understand why the ref can't be sent to the screen for virtually every pen that is given, they were the ones who know what they think they have seen, so let the screen comfirm it (or otherwise), but we're left in the stupid position where they are only sent to the screen if it's a blatant clear error, so we all know the only outcome is that they are going to change their mind.

It is obvious that VAR wasn't sure about the Dalot one, but were too weak to follow through on that doubt.
 
Oranges038 said:
You're winning 2-1 with about 5 mins left, it's absolutely stupid to dive into that tackle in the box. Elliott does dangle the leg, but even if he doesn't he's not avoiding contact with AWB.

It's brain dead defending and braindead defending has cost Utd 7 points in 3 games this last week.
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i don’t think anyone has argued it wasnt absolutely stupid to dive in? Still doesnt change the fact that Elliott trails his leg and even moves it towards Bissaka. You can clearly see how he shifts his body to go down. If he doesnt do it and gets taken out by Bissaka, then by all means…but everyone is able to see what actually happens

Not a fan of penalties like that, especially when given against us
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
It's weird because I can see why the ref gave them both, and in real time I called the AWB as not been a pen, and the Dalot one as dead cert for one, where in reality I think the Elliot one was just about a pen, whereas the Dalot one I don't think it was, so I can see why the refs have such a hard time with it.

I'll never understand why the ref can't be sent to the screen for virtually every pen that is given, they were the ones who know what they think they have seen, so let the screen comfirm it (or otherwise), but we're left in the stupid position where they are only sent to the screen if it's a blatant clear error, so we all know the only outcome is that they are going to change their mind.

It is obvious that VAR wasn't sure about the Dalot one, but were too weak to follow through on that doubt.
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Dalot tripped and took their man down.
Am I missing some doubt with that one?
 
Pexbo said:
I thought the same but actually it wasn’t that bad an attempt, he was side on and tried to poke the ball away, then fell behind him. If Elliot didn’t throw his leg backwards and then flop forwards it would have been fine. Just a missed attempt at poking the ball, he wasn’t sliding into him or anything.
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Stay on your feet and don't dive in.

Simple rules for defending inside the box that kids get thought at u10s.

I love moaning about referees and VAR as much as the next person, but AWB has no business going to ground there. The game the way it is any contact and it is a penalty and VAR do not overturn where there is contact, whether it's engineered or not. It's easy to blame the referee here, but I'd blame poor defending more so. Anotny the other night, gets caught wrong side, knee to knee contact it's a penalty. Same as Dalot, gets turned on the wing gets caught wrong side and falls into the player from behind while trying to recover. Soft penalty perhaps, but it's bad defending that's led to that situation in the first place.

Players need to be smarter and not give the referees a chance to give those decisions.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
It's weird because I can see why the ref gave them both, and in real time I called the AWB as not been a pen, and the Dalot one as dead cert for one, where in reality I think the Elliot one was just about a pen, whereas the Dalot one I don't think it was, so I can see why the refs have such a hard time with it.

I'll never understand why the ref can't be sent to the screen for virtually every pen that is given, they were the ones who know what they think they have seen, so let the screen comfirm it (or otherwise), but we're left in the stupid position where they are only sent to the screen if it's a blatant clear error, so we all know the only outcome is that they are going to change their mind.

It is obvious that VAR wasn't sure about the Dalot one, but were too weak to follow through on that doubt.
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Odd.

Both completely opposite for me.

Dalots is amazingly soft but there’s contact (and then an over exaggerated fall) but VAR can’t over turn that. This one though?

Stop fecking about and copy rugby Union you morons!! Ref today just whistles and says “penalty. VAR, show me the angles so I can make sure there was contact because that’s what I gave it for”. It’s so fecking simple and these morons are ruining matches
 
Oranges038 said:
Stay on your feet and don't dive in.

Simple rules for defending inside the box that kids get thought at u10s.

I love moaning about referees and VAR as much as the next person, but AWB has no business going to ground there. The game the way it is any contact and it is a penalty and VAR do not overturn where there is contact, whether it's engineered or not. It's easy to blame the referee here, but I'd blame poor defending more so. Anotny the other night, gets caught wrong side, knee to knee contact it's a penalty. Same as Dalot, gets turned on the wing gets caught wrong side and falls into the player from behind while trying to recover. Soft penalty perhaps, but it's bad defending that's led to that situation in the first place.

Players need to be smarter and not give the referees a chance to give those decisions.
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Which FA law says a silly decision by a defender = a penalty?

We’d end up without tackles and the game is getting diluted too much already
 
The discussion about VAR being remotely fair and impartial ends when Doku sticks his boot into Mac Allisters chest and says play on. A bit like the De Jong attack on Alonso in the 2010 World Cup final. Who was the Ref that night? Why Howard Webb who didn't think it was a red card. He now runs the VAR.
 
Sandikan said:
Dalot tripped and took their man down.
Am I missing some doubt with that one?
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The thing with it is that the Chelsea player didn't go down with contact that tripped up Dalot, yet did with contact from an arm that most people could easily run through.

As I say the fact VAR looked for so long makes you think it wasn't as clear cut as it first looked, which means they should have sent the ref to the monitor.
 
The foul on Elliott is a clear penalty.

If Wan Bisaka stays on his feet then it doesn't happen.

Elliott is looking for it, but it's no different to the penalties that Ashley Young and Martial used to 'win' week in week out under Solskjaer.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
The foul on Elliott is a clear penalty.

If Wan Bisaka stays on his feet then it doesn't happen.

Elliott is looking for it, but it's no different to the penalties that Ashley Young and Martial used to 'win' week in week out under Solskjaer.
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Does AWB need to touch him for it to be a penalty?
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Which FA law says a silly decision by a defender = a penalty?

We’d end up without tackles and the game is getting diluted too much already
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There's no law, it's just common sense.

Don't dive in in the box unless you absolutely have to. He didn't have to, he made contact with the player, referee gave a penalty, VAR doesn't over turn anything where there is contact.

Like I said, it's easy to blame the referee and VAR, it's easier for AWB just to stay on his feet, but that would require a brain, it's a stupid decision to go to ground and he's cost his team 3 points.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
The foul on Elliott is a clear penalty.

If Wan Bisaka stays on his feet then it doesn't happen.

Elliott is looking for it, but it's no different to the penalties that Ashley Young and Martial used to 'win' week in week out under Solskjaer.
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I just about agree, but I bet if the ref didn't give it in real time then it wouldn't have been given afterwards.
 
Does that ridiculous challenge deserve a penalty? Yes.

Did that ridiculous challenge actually make contact? No.

Was the player already going down and looking for it? Yes.

Horrific attempted challenge by AWB but it wasn't a penalty no matter how brain-dead the effort was
 
Oranges038 said:
There's no law, it's just common sense.

Don't dive in in the box unless you absolutely have to. He didn't have to, he made contact with the player, referee gave a penalty, VAR doesn't over turn anything where there is contact.

Like I said, it's easy to blame the referee and VAR, it's easier for AWB just to stay on his feet, but that would require a brain, it's a stupid decision to go to ground and he's cost his team 3 points.
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And if you do dive in, you have to get a foot to the fecking ball. Otherwise it’s penalty.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
And if you do dive in, you have to get a foot to the fecking ball. Otherwise it’s penalty.
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Aye, there's just no excuse for diving in that situation, player was going away from goal, had no chance of a shot, nothing just keep him going that way.

I watched some of this back, for 10-15 mins before that AWB was all over the place, he was slow to react and out of position a lot, in saying that he was probably tired. But Liverpool were deliberately targeting that left back side time and time again and eventually he fecked up.
 
Oranges038 said:
Aye, there's just no excuse for diving in that situation, player was going away from goal, had no chance of a shot, nothing just keep him going that way.

I watched some of this back, for 10-15 mins before that AWB was all over the place, he was slow to react and out of position a lot, in saying that he was probably tired. But Liverpool were deliberately targeting that left back side time and time again and eventually he fecked up.
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To be fair, AWB is the one player over all others I’d back to get a toe to the ball when he does go to ground in those situations. Incredibly rare for his go go gadget legs to let him down like that.
 
Casemiro's was a red card though.
I'm surprised Anthony Taylor let it slide. He gave red for less last season
 
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