VAR and Refs | General Discussion | Forest go into meltdown

[Chipper]

I've watched the Brentford goal multiple times and still can't see who's supposed to be offside? There were a few players in offside positions who got nowhere near the ball but it looks a perfectly good goal to me. Every player who touched the ball for Brentford was onside when it was played by the player before.

It confused me for a long time too, based off the pictures in that tweet that @awop posted. Also from not reading the article properly when you click through and just reading the captions under the pictures, The brief highlights I saw on the Sky Sports football Youtube channel didn't mention any potential offside.

It's when the ball is headed down to Norgaard by Pinnock where the offside is. Norgaard crosses to Toney who heads it in. From the one regular camera angle that I saw plus one replay you can't really tell that all as there were lots of bodies in the way. The right-hand picture in the tweet is what that depicts.

For the longest time I was thinking they were claiming offside for when the free kick was taken. There are two players in offside positions there. One is Pinnock, the other Mee. Pinnock does become involved in the move later on but the original ball that goes to Toney isn't really near him and an Arsenal player gets a head on it before Pinnock becomes involved. Either different phase of play or not affecting things I'd have said of Pinnock and Mee which was causing my confusion.

The article (when clicking on the Tweet) seems to think Arteta was claiming offside against one or both of Pinnock or Mee immediately after the match when reading through it too If so, he might've missed the Norgaard one as well at least at first. I believe the VAR looked into the Pinnock/Mee one, decided that they weren't involved/it was a different phase by the time Pinnock was and that was it. VAR didn't check the Norgaard one.

So it's this moment, Norgaard (far left) is offside:

 

[terraloo]

Today's call in the Chelsea match is the perfect example of why VAR is fine for offsides but should be scrapped for everything else. Offside is an objective call, a player is either ahead of the last defender or he isn't. Although I dislike the toenail offsides, at least VAR has (after several tweaks) proven capable of consistently getting decisions technically right.

But other calls are not objective. It's always gonna be one (or a couple of) person(s) interpretation of often imprecise rules. But when you have VAR, you create an illusion of objectivity, of scientific methods, that makes people much more furious when calls are illogical, inconsistent or just downright wrong. The extreme hesitancy to overturn any decision now makes it obsolete anyway so just scrap it already.

There is still a certain amount of subjectivity in the offside law such as was a player active because being in an offside position doesn’t mean that you are interfeing with play.

Personally I would abandon VAR because at least when you didn’t have it the PL could charge some of the challenges that are looked at by VAR and no action taken yet in the cold light of day it’s obvious a charge would be appropriate but more importantly it seems to me that even though we have VAR we still have as many debatable decisions as ever

 

[Longshanks]

So they have got two offside calls just plainly wrong, one that they just missed and didn't look at. And one where they took it from the wrong player despite the right player being quite clearly in shot and behind the player they measured from.

These two instances are compleatly unacceptable. The refs in question should be heavily reprimanded. But they won't be and closed circle will protect and they will be back making basic mistakes again.

The handball is more subjective something of a 50/50 call. Despites attempts to make the handball law black and white it really isn't and never has been. I think it's one of those that wouldn't get overturned whatever the original decision was.

 

[terraloo]

Just watched the Lemina sending off on MoTD, and you just have to laugh at the awfulness of the decision.

He got booked not sent off. The problem was he already had been given a yellow

 

[Basso]

This.

Looking at that Brenford goal the only tight decision is the last part of the goal, where Toney heads the ball down.

Also the obstruction before the freekick, was my main worry watching it live, it's where the VAR replay looked at but with a wrong wording of " checking offside" instead of 'obstruction play'

From the overhead angle, shown live on TV, he wasn't offside and VAR didn't draw lines to it. I didn't think it was offside.

The viral still picture of that offside, looks more like an angle issue than being a mistake.

The great mistake was the calling of a foul just before Brenford scored. That's the biggest mistake in that game.

It's already been confirmed Nørgaard was offside on the 1-1 goal.
Yes, there was a massive mistake in the first half as well, when Gabriel slipped and Mboumo scored but it can't be checked because the Ref already blew the whistle.

 

[cyberman]

You say that but the current rules are that a player has to be active to be deemed offside. How is a computer going to know if a player is active in play or not? It comes down to interpretation again. That’s why I’m saying they need to go back to the root cause of the problem which is the over complicated rules. Take the Rashford goal against City. Very few United fans would say that should have been given as a goal but the current rules allowed it to stand.

They had it during the World cup and it was fantastic.
Your last sentence is the problem here. Too much talking against the rules as if we can pick and choose what rules to follow or is acceptable.
Is there any other sport that has this mindset?
We can’t change the rules to cover every extreme example or we will end up changing them every 6 months when another extreme example pops up. That Chelsea game that had the stone wall penalty not given? The VAR ref was the head of fecking VAR itself. Changing the rules does nothing, we could change the rules and herd mentality everywhere says yes, that is offside until it happens tomorrow when the ref has to make the decision on the spot and the VAR can only rule on clear and obvious. Then everything is a shit show and up in the air.
Would Rashford be offside now? Apparently yes. Offside enough that VAR can jump in? feck knows because it’s too random, they don’t want to get involved.
Same way they’ll all sit down and say example x is a pen. Clear pen.
Now imagine a ref seeing it but not being sure. The referee association (whatever they’re called) have said they want penalties to be harder to get this season (without any rule change, remember that) so the bar is already set higher on the pitch never mind the higher bar needed for VAR to get involved by a VAR ref who doesn’t want to overrule the on pitch referee on top of that.
There’s never been a big enough deal made about that. Nothing has changed about what is or isn’t a penalty but the referees have said they want them to be harder to get so theyre blatantly not giving pens that are pens without rhyme or reason. Pot luck

 

[Zlatan 7]

Why people blame VAR for that, instead of whoever making decisions or how ref interpret the law? I love that VAR start showing people how stupid some of referees are.

In the past, people could only fuming and resign to fate, when the replays from 100 angles showed that the ref making mistakes. Now at least some refs can't hide if they still fecking up their decisions.

Because decisions are subjective. Unless it’s an absolute blatant Maradona or Henry handball there’s no lint in it interfering with the game. And we’ve had a handful of those cheating circumstances in decades

 

[The Dane]

I think that with these tight offside calls where you need to draw lines you cannot talk about being robbed of a goal or the other way around, it’s pure luck if you get the call with you, it’s not down to good timing of your run or good defending, and especially when the ball is ping ponging back and forth within a small crowded area like for the Brentford goal.
VAR is good for a lot of things like penalty decisions where it can be difficult for the ref to see if there is contact or not, and dangerous tackles that calls for a red card but I actually think the linesmen prior to VAR was really good at getting the calls right for offside and on those few occasions where they make blatant mistakes that you don’t need to draw lines to call then let VAR intervene otherwise not. It’s part of the game.

 

[Pexbo]

I’ve seen the theory (and might have even said it myself) that it’s the English referees sabotaging VAR because they hate the way it undermines them and removes their control of the game. I don’t think there is any chance of VAR being scrapped though because FIFA and UEFA are committed to it.

It also makes them look particularly stupid because VAR is being utilised successfully in other leagues, European competitions and international football.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Is it being used successfully in other leagues? I don’t watch or read the news on that enough although I have seen the odd bad call brought up. The champions league has had dodgy calls hasn’t it?

I’d also argue that the championship and other leagues are doing just fine without it too.

 

[Giggsyking]

Why are Arsenal fans crying? Denying Brentford the goal in the first half for an imaginary foul evens it out.

 

[cyberman]

Saw Arsenal again, the block isnt offside imo The ball isn’t played towards the Brentford player nor is he running towards the ball. It literally says in the rules that being offside isn’t an offence in itself anyway.
Haven’t seen an angle for the second instance though but it does say the lines were drawn after and it was offside

 

[Okey]

He got booked not sent off. The problem was he already had been given a yellow

Yes I know. It's the booking for nothing that is laughable. Especially knowing he already had a yellow. The Ref had a shocker.

 

[Josep Dowling]

I think that with these tight offside calls where you need to draw lines you cannot talk about being robbed of a goal or the other way around, it’s pure luck if you get the call with you, it’s not down to good timing of your run or good defending, and especially when the ball is ping ponging back and forth within a small crowded area like for the Brentford goal.
VAR is good for a lot of things like penalty decisions where it can be difficult for the ref to see if there is contact or not, and dangerous tackles that calls for a red card but I actually think the linesmen prior to VAR was really good at getting the calls right for offside and on those few occasions where they make blatant mistakes that you don’t need to draw lines to call then let VAR intervene otherwise not. It’s part of the game.

Tend to agree, maybe take offsides away on VAR and go with the lineman’s decision? Too many times they are now relying on VAR to make the decision.

 

[TheReligion]

The two offside mistakes in the Arsenal and Brighton games are unforgivable and show basic incompetence and the inability to handle pressure.

The Lemina yellow looks another strange decision that should be explained however as Wolves won I doubt it will get much air.

Soucek handball? Seen them given, seen them not. Far less outrageous than the above and simply goes to highlight the inconsistencies in referees. As Potter pointed out though, they are human so decisions like this are subjective.

 

[cyberman]

I think that with these tight offside calls where you need to draw lines you cannot talk about being robbed of a goal or the other way around, it’s pure luck if you get the call with you, it’s not down to good timing of your run or good defending, and especially when the ball is ping ponging back and forth within a small crowded area like for the Brentford goal.
VAR is good for a lot of things like penalty decisions where it can be difficult for the ref to see if there is contact or not, and dangerous tackles that calls for a red card but I actually think the linesmen prior to VAR was really good at getting the calls right for offside and on those few occasions where they make blatant mistakes that you don’t need to draw lines to call then let VAR intervene otherwise not. It’s part of the game.

This has to be a Joke surely? The amount of times a player was on or even clearly on and was flagged because the linesman couldn’t keep up happened multiple times per game.
I understand hating VAR but let’s not pretend pre VAR was some sort of offside paradise

 

[stw2022]

VAR should use the naked eye rule. If something looks offside then it is. If it looks level then it isn't.

Not sure anyone would object to "he looks level but after a few minutes of drawing lines on a screen we've determined the front tip of his shoulder was in an offside position" fecking off from the game entirely

 

[Pexbo]

VAR should use the naked eye rule. If something looks offside then it is. If it looks level then it isn't.

Not sure anyone would object to "he looks level but after a few minutes of drawing lines on a screen we've determined the front tip of his shoulder was in an offside position" fecking off from the game entirely

What a terrible idea.

 

[Mb194dc]

There have been mistakes in other leagues as well. Notably the Juventus game with a goal disallowed.

What you need for these VAR offside errors, is a checklist for the VAR officials to work through. You can't rush it. Or we need the semi automatic technology and then procedures for manual checks. You need to have the audio between the officials aired. So everyone can see mistakes and procedures changed to fix them

Similar to how aircrew work. Then you don’t get many mistakes.

On that list, you've got to have making sure the lines are drawn on the correct player and checking all phases of play... The mistakes yesterday.

 

[stw2022]

Look if something is egregiously or even self-evidently offside then VAR should be there to pick up where on-field officials have failed. But if a player looked basically onside generally nobody gave a shit. For or against their team. That was never an issue before VAR where "Shitty goal to concede but he looks pretty level to me" was replaced with "his nose! Look the green line hasn't considered his nose!!"

And offsides aren't always clear cut, factual decisions any way especially when it gets into the realm of determining who is it who isn't interfering with play.

 

[redcucumber]

There have been mistakes in other leagues as well. Notably the Juventus game with a goal disallowed.

What you need for these VAR offside errors, is a checklist for the VAR officials to work through. You can't rush it. Or we need the semi automatic technology and then procedures for manual checks. You need to have the audio between the officials aired. So everyone can see mistakes and procedures changed to fix them

Similar to how aircrew work. Then you don’t get many mistakes.

On that list, you've got to have making sure the lines are drawn on the correct player and checking all phases of play... The mistakes yesterday.

It shouldn't be rushed, but also feck even more protracted decision-making processes coming into the game. From a purely entertainment POV, VAR has upended the viewing experience and atmosphere. I don't want them pouring over minutiae - who the feck fell in love with football for the minutae?! Increasingly getting further and further away from the spirit of the game to the point where it all just feels hollow.

 

[Zlatan 7]

It shouldn't be rushed, but also feck even more protracted decision-making processes coming into the game. From a purely entertainment POV, VAR has upended the viewing experience and atmosphere. I don't want them pouring over minutiae - who the feck fell in love with football for the minutae?! Increasingly getting further and further away from the spirit of the game to the point where it all just feels hollow.

I agree with this, I go to watch my local team in the non league southern premier. It’s great to go and watch a game of football for what it is.

the more you watch the premier league on tele it just becomes more and more manufactured and ‘entertainment’ and being at the the stadium is even worse hanging around trying to figure and waiting to see whatever VAR is going to come up with.

 

[POF]

The penultimate pass is the one where from the camera angle it looks like the player is offside.

It confused me for a long time too, based off the pictures in that tweet that @awop posted. Also from not reading the article properly when you click through and just reading the captions under the pictures, The brief highlights I saw on the Sky Sports football Youtube channel didn't mention any potential offside.

It's when the ball is headed down to Norgaard by Pinnock where the offside is. Norgaard crosses to Toney who heads it in. From the one regular camera angle that I saw plus one replay you can't really tell that all as there were lots of bodies in the way. The right-hand picture in the tweet is what that depicts.

For the longest time I was thinking they were claiming offside for when the free kick was taken. There are two players in offside positions there. One is Pinnock, the other Mee. Pinnock does become involved in the move later on but the original ball that goes to Toney isn't really near him and an Arsenal player gets a head on it before Pinnock becomes involved. Either different phase of play or not affecting things I'd have said of Pinnock and Mee which was causing my confusion.

The article (when clicking on the Tweet) seems to think Arteta was claiming offside against one or both of Pinnock or Mee immediately after the match when reading through it too If so, he might've missed the Norgaard one as well at least at first. I believe the VAR looked into the Pinnock/Mee one, decided that they weren't involved/it was a different phase by the time Pinnock was and that was it. VAR didn't check the Norgaard one.

So it's this moment, Norgaard (far left) is offside:

Nope. There was a defender on the other side of the goal who was almost on the goal line. He wasn't offside.

It just shows that if you pick the angle you want people to see you can make anything look true.

Much like the Casemiro incident where they decided to show a slow motion loop of that one incident when much worse was going on elsewhere. I read a quote from Dermot Gallagher defending that decision because the ref can't see every incident. He definitely can't if they refuse to show him anything but one incident.

VAR doesn't work well because getting a fair decision is way down the list of what people want to get out of it. Fans will swear black is white when it comes to their team, the media has a huge agenda whatever they report, refs are spineless and the authorities don't help the refs at all by pretending they get every decision correct.

 

[Chipper]

Nope. There was a defender on the other side of the goal who was almost on the goal line. He wasn't offside.

It just shows that if you pick the angle you want people to see you can make anything look true.

Much like the Casemiro incident where they decided to show a slow motion loop of that one incident when much worse was going on elsewhere. I read a quote from Dermot Gallagher defending that decision because the ref can't see every incident. He definitely can't if they refuse to show him anything but one incident.

VAR doesn't work well because getting a fair decision is way down the list of what people want to get out of it. Fans will swear black is white when it comes to their team, the media has a huge agenda whatever they report, refs are spineless and the authorities don't help the refs at all by pretending they get every decision correct.

This is is from a wider angle, can't see anyone near the goal line. Which one would be playing him on?

 

[POF]

This is is from a wider angle, can't see anyone near the goal line. Which one would be playing him on?

You're right. I was thinking about the earlier one where Zinchenko was deeper. I just watched it again and you're right. He was slightly off at that moment.

When I watched it originally, he looked on as the defender came back past him.

Very little in it but technically offside. Nowhere near as bad as the Estupinan one though.

 

[mctrials23]

VAR should use the naked eye rule. If something looks offside then it is. If it looks level then it isn't.

Not sure anyone would object to "he looks level but after a few minutes of drawing lines on a screen we've determined the front tip of his shoulder was in an offside position" fecking off from the game entirely

Thats an awful idea. You might as well not bother at all. There have been countless offside calls that are look onside or offside but once actual lines are drawn its quite clear that there was actually a foot or so in it.

You would just end up with some guy on youtube going over every offside call and pointing out that 20% were completely wrong because some guy was "eyeballing it" instead of using technology.

 

[Anustart89]

Yes I know. It's the booking for nothing that is laughable. Especially knowing he already had a yellow. The Ref had a shocker.

Just came in here to post about the explanation he gave Neves for the sending off, which was "arriving as the third man to protest" Absolutely laughable.

He wanted to send him off for reasons unknown to anyone, maybe he felt that the yellow he gave him earlier was very orange or something, but it's clear that he wanted to send him off and looked for an opportunity to do so.

I'm just going to say that I doubt that Harry Kane would've been sent off for "arriving as the third man".

 

[Mb194dc]

It shouldn't be rushed, but also feck even more protracted decision-making processes coming into the game. From a purely entertainment POV, VAR has upended the viewing experience and atmosphere. I don't want them pouring over minutiae - who the feck fell in love with football for the minutae?! Increasingly getting further and further away from the spirit of the game to the point where it all just feels hollow.

Agree with you. That's why semi auto VAR a must pretty much, then you just get the manual check procedure on a small number of calls. Similar to the world cup. VAR has been a disaster in league football since it was introduced. Ultimately, if it can't be fixed better just to scrap it.

 

[Anustart89]

Just watching MOTD and commenting as I go through it. How the feck can they miss the Palace player clearly behind the one they're drawing the line from? Do they share a single brain cell between them, this lot?

 

[Sarni]

I’m surprised the amount of coverage the possible error in the buildup to Brentford goal got in comparison to a much more glaring mistake in Palace v Brighton game (at least here, as Arsenal fans are calling FA corrupt, Brentford cheats and demanding the victory to be awarded to them, among other nonsense I have seen since morning). Even with that line drawn in the picture I am still not entirely convinced Norgaard is offside, and he is it’s a matter of centimeters, or a fraction of second in which you decide to stop the frame to analyze their positioning. Arsenal seem to have focused on trying to explain why they conceded by looking frame by frame seeking referee’s error rather than pointing out their defensive naivety.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Just came in here to post about the explanation he gave Neves for the sending off, which was "arriving as the third man to protest" Absolutely laughable.

He wanted to send him off for reasons unknown to anyone, maybe he felt that the yellow he gave him earlier was very orange or something, but it's clear that he wanted to send him off and looked for an opportunity to do so.

I'm just going to say that I doubt that Harry Kane would've been sent off for "arriving as the third man".

A pure power trip by the Referee. You can see he turns around, sees people running up to complain and has a look on his face like thunder. He just picks out Lamina and gives him a random yellow card.

Maybe he remembered he was already on a yellow so did it to 'teach them a lesson'. Utterly ridiculous.

I know players shouldn't and if they're rude/offensive then fair enough, but there seemed nothing in it. He lost his cool plain and simple.

Luckily for Wolves it seemed to embolden them.

It's fair to say our referees have no idea what they're doing.

 

[arnie_ni]

VAR should use the naked eye rule. If something looks offside then it is. If it looks level then it isn't.

Not sure anyone would object to "he looks level but after a few minutes of drawing lines on a screen we've determined the front tip of his shoulder was in an offside position" fecking off from the game entirely

Horrendous idea. Everyone would object

 

[Reapersoul20]

This is too funny.

 

[eire-red]

This has to be a Joke surely? The amount of times a player was on or even clearly on and was flagged because the linesman couldn’t keep up happened multiple times per game.
I understand hating VAR but let’s not pretend pre VAR was some sort of offside paradise

Exactly this! Like I get the frustration with VAR because it should be 100% right all the time, but even 95% right is better than when we just relied on the judgement of the linesman. I couldn't imagine watching a game of football now and knowing that there's no VAR to call the offsides.

Like, the Arsenal one seems to be a bit of a shocker, but in fairness it sounds like there were a few phases of play to sort through, and even though the still picture looks offside, it could have been a very tight one at the correct angle.

What we never see anymore are those blatant offsides missed, like the infamous Drogba goal. We just need to automate the check, like some AI and not a guy drawing lines himself. Clearly just needs improvement, not abolishing.

 

[cyberman]

Exactly this! Like I get the frustration with VAR because it should be 100% right all the time, but even 95% right is better than when we just relied on the judgement of the linesman. I couldn't imagine watching a game of football now and knowing that there's no VAR to call the offsides.

Like, the Arsenal one seems to be a bit of a shocker, but in fairness it sounds like there were a few phases of play to sort through, and even though the still picture looks offside, it could have been a very tight one at the correct angle.

What we never see anymore are those blatant offsides missed, like the infamous Drogba goal. We just need to automate the check, like some AI and not a guy drawing lines himself. Clearly just needs improvement, not abolishing.

It’s a fair swap. If you offered every other striker in history the option of having all his great runs rewarded by not being flagged off and the only thing they had to give up in return was an offside being an offside, they would all snap your hands off.

 

[Daydreamer]

I've watched the Brentford goal multiple times and still can't see who's supposed to be offside? There were a few players in offside positions who got nowhere near the ball but it looks a perfectly good goal to me. Every player who touched the ball for Brentford was onside when it was played by the player before.

The worst decision in that game is the non-existent foul given against Mbeumo when he "scored" early on in the game.

This is why VAR is so difficult to implement. The rules of football are so vague (and those implementing them are too stupid to understand interpretations) that 2 people can watch an incident and both genuinely believe the complete opposite of each other.

The Soucek handball was a judgement call too. The interpretations around handball change every 5 minutes so nobody knows what is supposed to be a "deliberate handball" anymore.

Estupinan's goal vs Palace looked nowhere near offside live or from any replay and was one of the worst mistakes I have ever seen. That VAR operator should be sacked immediately.

But the biggest controversy of the weekend seems to be the Brentford goal because Arteta got a bit upset. "Replay the game" they say as if it's an error so gross that VAR should be abolished. It wasn't even an incorrect decision. But football reporting and fan reactions don't have any interest in fairness. That's why VAR will struggle to work in football.

The player who makes the assist was offside when the ball was played to him. That’s about as cut and dried as it gets.

And Mbuemo had a foul given against him for a shirt pull (which can clearly be seen on the replay) then put the ball in the net against a team that had stopped defending due to that foul. It’s not really the same thing at all.

 

[berbatrick]

Going to be a long day.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Referees are simply not good enough. Can see exactly where this game’s going after that tackle.

 

[georgipep]

Nope. There was a defender on the other side of the goal who was almost on the goal line. He wasn't offside.

Do you have a photo or video of that angle? I haven't seen such and from all angles I saw, it is a definite offside.

 

[georgipep]

You're right. I was thinking about the earlier one where Zinchenko was deeper. I just watched it again and you're right. He was slightly off at that moment.

When I watched it originally, he looked on as the defender came back past him.

Very little in it but technically offside. Nowhere near as bad as the Estupinan one though.

"very little in it" is unnecessary diminishing the factual offside here. If that was against us you wouldn't say that. It is a clear offside.