VAR and Refs | General Discussion | May 15: Premier League clubs to vote on proposal to scrap VAR from next season

[Alex99]

I think it was a bad precedent to set, obvious human error from the transcript but now every team is going to demand this. PGMOL could have just played the tape behind doors to Liverpool to show it was just human error.

I don't think releasing the audio is a bad precedent at all.

If anything, we should be pressuring FIFA/IFAB (can't remember which is responsible) to change the daft rule preventing live broadcast of the audio like we have in rugby and cricket when they're reviewing on-field decisions.

If they knew everything they were saying was being broadcast live (or recorded to be released later in the case of the non-televised games), maybe they'd be clearer and a bit more professional in how they communicate with each other during the review process.

 

[swooshboy]

I'm curious if technology is there to investigate and invest that would create a 3D box map around the pitch to say 7-8 feet high, or maybe crossbar height. Then something that allows the ball to transmit to the 3D box map and perhaps a chip/something on the player somewhere, per say the shirt or shorts that would allow for video to capture a player's silhouette to then see where feet, legs, heads, etc. are placed on such tight calls.

Perhaps roving/stationed cameras on each side of the pitch box that tracks along with the play so that any given moment a sideline 3D view is available.

And add a second on-field ref so that one is always with/in front of play and the other is behind play. Adding an additional official cleaned up the NHL imo.

I think it should be even simpler. All players wear a chip in their shirt (for example) and then these are tracked for their current position on the pitch with their own coordinates. If a player is offside, then it would automatically be flagged, because their sensor would be nearer the goaline than at least 2 opponent sensors.

We need to get away from trying to gauge exactly which body part of a player is further forward. It annoys me that some decisions are offside, and some are onside just because of the position of a player's legs during their running stride – 2 frames later and it would be different.

 

[Lennon7]

If the match actually gets replayed then football needs a fecking restart. VAR fecked up, and it’s a shambles, but it’s a mistake. There’s been thousands of refereeing mistakes in the history of football and just because VAR is suppose to remove them doesn’t mean mistakes in this new form of refereeing is grounds for a replay.

I think they need to get rid of VAR altogether until they have actually worked out how to apply it. I was on board with it but it’s regularly a complete shitshow

 

[ManUnitedCanuck]

Surely it's a good precedent? Why should incompetent officials be allowed to hide away and get away with this sort of thing?

I wonder how many times this sort of thing has happened before?

It would be a good precedent and should have been more transparent from the start, like other sports.

However, I don't think they will be doing this for everyone now. They should but knowing the PGMOL they will just pick and choose if this is to happen. Odd situation since they should be promoting equity, and if one team gets this type of response so should the others.

 

[MegadrivePerson]

In the VAR era, are there any examples of VAR getting the decision wrong then deliberately not rectifying the mistake?

 

[Pexbo]

In the VAR era, are there any examples of VAR getting the decision wrong then deliberately not rectifying the mistake?

We don’t know because there is zero transparency. They have been very selective in the audio they have released up until now.

 

[Ayoba]

So it was a communication error, which they figured out a few mins after the incident and tried to correct it but due to the stupid rules, they weren't able to intervene.

 

[HappyCamper]

Klopp using the media once again to manipulate decisions on the pitch. That's them for the rest of the season receiving favourable decisions by refs. Needs to be called out by other managers as all clubs in the league could point back to VAR decisions that have gone against them, and cost them points. Liverpool in particular have had so many decisions go there way. Only last season they had a clear offside goal against Wolves in the FA cup. It should have been disallowed but the goal was given and they won the game. Did Liverpool ask for the game to be replayed? Even Wolves didn't bother.

Wolves were fuming, and rightly so. Klopp showed his sympathy for Wolves. The game was replayed. At Molineux.

Did Lopetegui manipulate decisions on the pitch with his outrage or are Klopp the only one anwsering questions from the media in a bias way to protect himself and his team as best as possible? If you don't fall over you won't get a freekick. It's a shame but that's the current state of football...

The Wolves goal is similar to the goal Arsenal had against us last year where VAR also had a lack of camera angle to deem an onside/offside player to be onside/offside and overturn the linesman on-field decision.

This weeks talkingpoint is more similar to Sheffield Uniteds goal vs Villa (even though that was a breakdown in the hawkeye-system and not a brainfart).
The error is clear and can be proven by VAR without any doubt within seconds. But due to retarded protocols they decide to go against common sense and go with the clearly wrong decision. They should be reminded why VAR was implemented in the first place.

But to be fair I understand why you believe the Wolves goal is shady af. This is why transparency is needed. Every single decision made by VAR should be openly avaliable to anyone (direct audio and camera angles used to reach their conclusion). Either during the game or right after.
I can not for the love of god understand why transparency isn't an absolute demand by people. And that goes beyond 22 men kicking a ball for fun.

*Edit: I can see you're talking about Salahs goal and not the disallowed one. Sorry. Both are valid talkingpoints. For what it's worth I am agreeing with you. It should have been called offside and laws should be redefined (and probably already have been due to a goal given in a match I don't remember on the top of my head) on what's being deemed "a new phase of play" and "deliberately playing a ball". It's confusing af.

 

[fergieisold]

I’ve only just heard the recording, it’s actually unbelievable how amateur it is. Has there been no attempt to standardise how they’re making these decisions?

 

[Dave Smith]

I’ve only just heard the recording, it’s actually unbelievable how amateur it is. Has there been no attempt to standardise how they’re making these decisions?

Wasn't it Martin Jol who said years ago that people outside of football would be amazed at how amateur football is for a multi-billion pound/day to day?

 

[Darlington Padgett]

Klopp using the media once again to manipulate decisions on the pitch. That's them for the rest of the season receiving favourable decisions by refs. Needs to be called out by other managers as all clubs in the league could point back to VAR decisions that have gone against them, and cost them points. Liverpool in particular have had so many decisions go there way. Only last season they had a clear offside goal against Wolves in the FA cup. It should have been disallowed but the goal was given and they won the game. Did Liverpool ask for the game to be replayed? Even Wolves didn't bother.

That unbeaten run they hadat the end of the season was as corrupt as it gets.

 

[Fully Fledged]

When we said that they had used the wrong angle and body part the other week we were told that VAR was infallible get over it. But when a Liverpool decision is wrong....

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Wolves were fuming, and rightly so. Klopp showed his sympathy for Wolves. The game was replayed. At Molineux.

The first game ended in a draw. The game was replayed at the ground of the away team because it was a draw - that's how the cup works. It wasn't replayed the Wolves manager demanded it, nor the creative way you've tried to make it look like Klopp arranged it out of sympathy.

 

[HappyCamper]

The first game ended in a draw. The game was replayed at the ground of the away team because it was a draw - that's how the cup works. It wasn't replayed because Klopp showed sympathy. I'm impressed by the creative writing though.

It has to be seen in context with the quoted message. Maybe Liverpool should have asked to lose the game. I'm vaguely remembering not being particulary happy with a rematch due to a packed list of fixtures and few avaliable players.

 

[Mb194dc]

I’ve only just heard the recording, it’s actually unbelievable how amateur it is. Has there been no attempt to standardise how they’re making these decisions?

Doesn't seem like it. There should be checklists like for flying an aircraft.

 

[fergieisold]

Wasn't it Martin Jol who said years ago that people outside of football would be amazed at how amateur football is for a multi-billion pound/day to day?

I don't know but it appears he was right!

Doesn't seem like it. There should be checklists like for flying an aircraft.

Exactly! It should be drilled down to a fine art.

 

[UnitedSofa]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[HackeyC]

I don't know but it appears he was right!



Exactly! It should be drilled down to a fine art.

Just get rugby or cricket refs to train them.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Replay operator knew staright away, but there was too much backslapping going on for him to get the message through straight away, took quite a while for the penny to drop.

No one will ever convince me that there would have been any harm done if they'd just stopped the game when the realised the mistake had been made and given Liverpool the goal, I don't get why they'd tie themselves up in red tape to not give them the option in extreme circumstances.

 

[Shane88]

I’ve only just heard the recording, it’s actually unbelievable how amateur it is. Has there been no attempt to standardise how they’re making these decisions?

Compare it to how composed the rugby decisions are. They don't take bullshit either. "Don't try to buy a penalty from the TMO by going down injured. Penalty against you." If only football and football refs had the balls to introduce that to sport, injury-feigning would die overnight.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Replay operator knew staright away, but there was too much backslapping going on for him to get the message through straight away, took quite a while for the penny to drop.

No one will ever convince me that there would have been any harm done if they'd just stopped the game when the realised the mistake had been made and given Liverpool the goal, I don't get why they'd tie themselves up in red tape to not give them the option in extreme circumstances.

Didn't they do that recently to us? Looked at a decision check complete and then immediately look again? Not identical but similarities.

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

Didn't they do that recently to us? Looked at a decision check complete and then immediately look again? Not identical but similarities.

Let's ask for a replay.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Didn't they do that recently to us? Looked at a decision check complete and then immediately look again? Not identical but similarities.

I remember something but can't think when it was, it seems with this one that because the offside freekick had been taken then that was it, they couldn't go back.

But it's just daft, nothing happened in the time it took for the ball to go out again, and the ref could have just blown his whistle and stopped the game anyway.

Tbf for the mistake was stopped quite quickly and was still retrievable, yes they'd have looked like idiots, but it would have had limited impact, and they might have got some brownie points for been bold enough to do it.

They're lucky Liverpool have taken the heat off a bit by reacting the way they have, they're going to get very little sympathy now.

 

[acnumber9]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So he’s ok to carry on making mistakes for everybody else? Seems above board.

 

[Anustart89]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So wait, have the PGMOL just said that England's made a conscious error because he is biased against them, or is making an error against Liverpool so bad that they get to pick and choose who is eligible for their games? Did other teams also get a referee banished for an entire season when they forgot to draw lines or when they drew the lines on the wrong player?

As far as errors go, making a "clerical error" is surely not as bad as giving a soft as shite pen against a team, like England did against Fulham when they played City. It looks much dumber, but it's not like he saw that and said "nah that's offside don't need the lines".

 

[Slevs]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Does this mean we can ban Michael Oliver and the rest of the idiots from refereeing our matches or we gotta wait for them to feck us first

 

[Gio]

Struggling to understand Letexier's non-offside decision in the Atletico - Feyenoord game. I thought that was exactly the type of situation that had been cleared up in the rules / guidance this year.

 

[90 + 5min]

Was yesterdays game, the first time this season, where VAR didn't get a decision wrong in one of our games?

We had 2 clear penalties denied against Wolves
We had 1 clear penalty denied against Tottenham when it was 0-0.
We had 1 clear goal denied against Arsenal. Same game as Arsenal were given goal and Saka escaped red card.
We had 1 clear penalty denied against Crystal Palace. While Crystal Palace score "offside" goal which week before was denied by VAR when we did.

So there you go. Most important decisions where some of them was cause for our lost games.

We don’t know because there is zero transparency. They have been very selective in the audio they have released up until now.

Thats is why our club must demand VAR recordings. We got no idea why they took decisions which I wrote above.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

There you go. This is what pressure does. Making you choose who you don't want to referee.

 

[Anustart89]

There you go. This is what pressure does. Making you choose who you don't want to referee.

On one hand, no referee other than England is more likely to subconsciously want to placate the Liverpool fans after last weekend's howler.

On the other though, refs will know that if you make a bad mistake against Liverpool it'll cost you games and therefore money.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I actually didn't think the audio was that bad, in all honesty. It was a clear, basic comms issue.

I thought it was going to be that they just didn't use the tech or were too busy laying bets.

In reality, this is just fuel for the content mill

 

[Reiver]

It's human error, they can't replay a game for that. It'll all be done by AI soon, then Klopper can complain about how Skynet are biased against Liverpool.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Wasn't it Martin Jol who said years ago that people outside of football would be amazed at how amateur football is for a multi-billion pound/day to day?

I realised this year's ago, all you have to do is listen to the pros talk about the game outside of punditry.

 

[Alex99]

I actually didn't think the audio was that bad, in all honesty. It was a clear, basic comms issue.

I thought it was going to be that they just didn't use the tech or were too busy laying bets.

In reality, this is just fuel for the content mill

It just seems utterly farcical that there's no confirmation at any point of what the on field decision is or what the result of the check is.

All we hear is they're checking for offside, but not why, and then they've finished the check, but not what the decision should be.

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

There would be an absolute meltdown in the media if this was done to a ref who made a feck up against us. Truly is amazing how much these scouse cnuts are placated. Atwell fecked us over a number of times and I doubt he'd have been dropped if we kicked up over him

 

[RedRocket9908]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Its ridiculous to suggest Liverpool should take legal action if they miss out on the title by a point because its likely they will earn a few points through dodgy or incorrect VAR decisions over the season as well.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Its ridiculous to suggest Liverpool should take legal action if they miss out on the title by a point, what about all the points they earn through dodgy or incorrect VAR decisions?

Why are you retweeting that bell ends opinion as if anyone else needs to hear it? Attention seeker in making attention seeking tweets on Twitter shocker.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Such an insanely stupid decision. This immediately makes it look like the mistake was officiating corruption, rather than incompetence. Which, thanks to VAR, is a rabbit hole we’ve already gone way too far down.

 

[MegadrivePerson]

I absolutely despise Goldbridge, I think he's an embarrassment to the fan base but he's been spot on, on this issue.

Put tribalism aside,

How would you feel if Højlund had scored, the linesman had incorrectly flagged for offside, VAR fails to overturn it, realises their mistake and still failed to act?

 

[Pexbo]

Such an insanely stupid decision. This immediately makes it look like the mistake was officiating corruption, rather than incompetence. Which, thanks to VAR, is a rabbit hole we’ve already gone way too far down.

It’s such a terrible precedent. There’s going to be so much focus on every single VAR decision now and clubs are going to demand the audio and video footage after matches.

If that becomes the norm and mistakes are indeed being made you’re going to end up with it being virtually impossible to staff all fixtures. Or you end up in a situation where clubs end up with the same two or three referees each week.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Compare it to how composed the rugby decisions are. They don't take bullshit either. "Don't try to buy a penalty from the TMO by going down injured. Penalty against you." If only football and football refs had the balls to introduce that to sport, injury-feigning would die overnight.

Been saying it for years. Model it off of rugby. Use clear and precise language for what is being checked and why.