VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Thought this was a very interesting read.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...eferee-error-first-half-premier-league-season

Summary is that we are the joint second worst screwed team thanks to VAR so far this season.
We don't need stats. Everyone should know by now that we are the most unlucky team when it comes to decisions. We have lost so many points over years because of bad calls. I would say that we lose about 20 points every year because of decisions. Decisions that are looked differently in other games.
 
Don’t see how the tennis model couldn’t be utilised?

A perceived bad call is made, the manager immediately calls for one of his reviews and the normal VAR process takes place.

Once’s he’s used his challenges only the referee calls apply thereafter.

Microanalysis of every decision has taken much of the beauty and reaction out of the sport and I think it was highlighted in this round of the cup. Despite Arsenal’s rat behaviour, it’s probably the most enjoyable game I’ve seen in a while because you could react naturally.

I did not enjoy the penalty. I would have enjoyed it getting repealed.
 
We don't need stats. Everyone should know by now that we are the most unlucky team when it comes to decisions. We have lost so many points over years because of bad calls. I would say that we lose about 20 points every year because of decisions. Decisions that are looked differently in other games.
Agreed but it’s good to see it spelled out in black and white rather than just people’s feelings.
Don’t think it’s perfect by any stretch but it’s not a bad analysis
 
I wasn’t sure if this was a red card or not. I’m leaning towards yellow being the fairest outcome, but I was surprised that VAR seemingly felt it was a potential red card offence but the ref, having gone to the monitor, overruled them after judging for himself and gave the Bournemouth player a yellow.

 
Yeah, red would be way overboard in my opinion. It's more or less the same kind of tactical foul we see multiple times in almost every game. Cucurella was looking for the foul–cutting Brooks' running path, diving, and then the embarassing face holding rubbish–and got more than he expected. For me the most important factor to refuse red is that Cucurella is diving before he has even crossed Brooks' path. So, rightly or wrongly, I'm glad a referee finally had the balls to decide for himself instead of fold to the almighty VAR. If he'd have sent him off, I'd send our scouting team out to sign Cousin Itt.

I should add that I'm all for booking tactical fouls that prevent counter attacks.
 
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I think one problem is the veneration of the center ref, that they are master arbiters of the laws. Why not do what they do in hockey with 2 refs in the center, two linesman, and a VAR overseen from somewhere else? A center ref is often behind the play, and VAR should never be telling them to go look at a monitor: it should be the ref asking to review something that is game-changing (pen, red card). If the ref makes a call and is happy with the call, play the feck on.
 
Don’t see how the tennis model couldn’t be utilised?

A perceived bad call is made, the manager immediately calls for one of his reviews and the normal VAR process takes place.

Once’s he’s used his challenges only the referee calls apply thereafter.

Microanalysis of every decision has taken much of the beauty and reaction out of the sport and I think it was highlighted in this round of the cup. Despite Arsenal’s rat behaviour, it’s probably the most enjoyable game I’ve seen in a while because you could react naturally.

100%. I honestly don’t understand why everyone doesn’t feel this way.
 
I wasn’t sure if this was a red card or not. I’m leaning towards yellow being the fairest outcome, but I was surprised that VAR seemingly felt it was a potential red card offence but the ref, having gone to the monitor, overruled them after judging for himself and gave the Bournemouth player a yellow.


This is such good refereeing, and such good cheating from Cucurella, who at the very least one can say 'has a history of it'. The lack of sportsmanship is so extreme there, goes fishing, deliberately makes contact, dives, incorrectly holds his face, screams.

Honestly I could never be a real footballer purely because that would necessitate me walking over and giving him the kind of injury he's faking. Disgraceful.
 
Yeah, red would be way overboard in my opinion. It's more or less the same kind of tactical foul we see multiple times in almost every game. Cucurella was looking for the foul–cutting Brooks' running path, diving, and then the embarassing face holding rubbish–and got more than he expected. For me the most important factor to refuse red is that Cucurella is diving before he has even crossed Brooks' path. So, rightly or wrongly, I'm glad a referee finally had the balls to decide for himself instead of fold to the almighty VAR. If he'd have sent him off, I'd send our scouting team out to sign Cousin Itt.

I should add that I'm all for booking tactical fouls that prevent counter attacks.
Totally agree. The last red card for hair pulling on cucurella was also a joke. He is such a annoying character.

But I think Bournmouth were lucky that christie and brooks didn't recieve a second booking on a couple of fouls.
 
Don’t see how the tennis model couldn’t be utilised?

A perceived bad call is made, the manager immediately calls for one of his reviews and the normal VAR process takes place.

Once’s he’s used his challenges only the referee calls apply thereafter.

Microanalysis of every decision has taken much of the beauty and reaction out of the sport and I think it was highlighted in this round of the cup. Despite Arsenal’s rat behaviour, it’s probably the most enjoyable game I’ve seen in a while because you could react naturally.

But would it really improve that bolded part as you can't be sure if a challenge will be used?
 
Given Cucurella's on field behavior I judge the hair pulling to be consensual.
 
I think one problem is the veneration of the center ref, that they are master arbiters of the laws. Why not do what they do in hockey with 2 refs in the center, two linesman, and a VAR overseen from somewhere else? A center ref is often behind the play, and VAR should never be telling them to go look at a monitor: it should be the ref asking to review something that is game-changing (pen, red card). If the ref makes a call and is happy with the call, play the feck on.

The refs in the VAR studio should have ultimate say and instruct the on pitch ref, not the reverse.

Letting the guy who has to run around without the benefit of replays have the final day is completely absurd.

"Going to the monitor" shouldn't be a thing. Just tell the on pitch ref what the decision is. They're all equally qualified, why let the guy who is knackered and under pressure from he players/fans have to make the call?
 
100%. I honestly don’t understand why everyone doesn’t feel this way.

Because you realise quite quickly that there are game changing errors every single game almost and we have the ability to avoid most of them. If anything I don't know how anyone can argue against VAR after seeing top level games without it. Just highlights how much crap it sorts out.

I don't know about you but I can celebrate goals just fine. I also quite enjoy the tension of the VAR check sometimes.
 
Cucurella is an annoying scrote of a player, loves instigating contact and then going to the ground.
 
Don’t see how the tennis model couldn’t be utilised?

A perceived bad call is made, the manager immediately calls for one of his reviews and the normal VAR process takes place.

Once’s he’s used his challenges only the referee calls apply thereafter.

Microanalysis of every decision has taken much of the beauty and reaction out of the sport and I think it was highlighted in this round of the cup. Despite Arsenal’s rat behaviour, it’s probably the most enjoyable game I’ve seen in a while because you could react naturally.
This couldn't work. Say you had three challenges a game and you used them all on very marginal calls that could go either way even after VAR so you lose your challenges and then a fourth incident happens which is stonewall robbery and the team can't challenge...as soon as that happened the whole system would lose integrity and people would be kicking off.

Reffing is subjective mostly so it would fall apart unless it was all or nothing.

Personally, I'd like to see automated offsides and then bin off VAR in general except for serious foul play and horror tackles.
 
The refs in the VAR studio should have ultimate say and instruct the on pitch ref, not the reverse.

Letting the guy who has to run around without the benefit of replays have the final day is completely absurd.

"Going to the monitor" shouldn't be a thing. Just tell the on pitch ref what the decision is. They're all equally qualified, why let the guy who is knackered and under pressure from he players/fans have to make the call?
Kind of depends how you think about it. I find that fundamentally ridiculous, because 99 decisions in a match are made by that ref, in whatever condition he is in, then you only get the benefit of replays, lowered heart rate, time and so forth for 1 or 2.

Refereeing in football is interpretive, not factual. It's part of the game.

VAR should only be used for massive, non judgement related mistakes or misses. Or else you have what we have now: fouls that are only fouls in VAR, but not in real time.
 
Kind of depends how you think about it. I find that fundamentally ridiculous, because 99 decisions in a match are made by that ref, in whatever condition he is in, then you only get the benefit of replays, lowered heart rate, time and so forth for 1 or 2.

Refereeing in football is interpretive, not factual. It's part of the game.

VAR should only be used for massive, non judgement related mistakes or misses. Or else you have what we have now: fouls that are only fouls in VAR, but not in real time.
Sure, let the on pitch ref control the game but if the equally qualified ref in the VAR studio sees a mistake, tell him. Saying "I think you want to take a second look at this and make millions of people wait for you to agree with me" is dumb.

The Cucurella decision yesterday was the first time this season that they've disagreed, and we're halfway through January. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

You're right that some decisions are subjective but why is the on pitch ref making the call? He's had players in his ear all game and fans on his back.
 
Sure, let the on pitch ref control the game but if the equally qualified ref in the VAR studio sees a mistake, tell him. Saying "I think you want to take a second look at this and make millions of people wait for you to agree with me" is dumb.

The Cucurella decision yesterday was the first time this season that they've disagreed, and we're halfway through January. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

You're right that some decisions are subjective but why is the on pitch ref making the call? He's had players in his ear all game and fans on his back.
Your argument makes me think that a 2nd ref on var is useless. They will always cover for each other.

It would be best to do it like Am Foot. The var only comes at the request of a team.

In last case scenario, it might be by decision of the ref, who decides to check it (have my doubts on this, but find it acceptable).
 
I wasn’t sure if this was a red card or not. I’m leaning towards yellow being the fairest outcome, but I was surprised that VAR seemingly felt it was a potential red card offence but the ref, having gone to the monitor, overruled them after judging for himself and gave the Bournemouth player a yellow.



Well done ref! Should've booked Cucurella for rolling around like a sausage roll thats been thrown down the stairs.
 
This couldn't work. Say you had three challenges a game and you used them all on very marginal calls that could go either way even after VAR so you lose your challenges and then a fourth incident happens which is stonewall robbery and the team can't challenge...as soon as that happened the whole system would lose integrity and people would be kicking off.

Reffing is subjective mostly so it would fall apart unless it was all or nothing.

Personally, I'd like to see automated offsides and then bin off VAR in general except for serious foul play and horror tackles.
Why would that happen? Every manager would know how many challenges they have before time, it’s down to them how to use it. No different to tennis, American football, cricket. It’s a skill to use them well.

I would also say challenges can only be used for penalty decisions. Offsides should still be VAR led but the rule probably needs looking at.
 
Yellow was a decent call and it's good to see ref using their own judgement.

They shouldn't be dictated to from Stockley park. They know the job, show them the footage and they make the call or not.

That being said, I don't think this tech works in football. It slows the game down, they get calls wrong still and it increases the focus on the refs to the detriment of the sport and entertainment.

Scrap it and just keep goal line, that can be wrong as well, due to margin of error, but doesn't have the other problems.
 
Why would that happen? Every manager would know how many challenges they have before time, it’s down to them how to use it. No different to tennis, American football, cricket. It’s a skill to use them well.

I would also say challenges can only be used for penalty decisions. Offsides should still be VAR led but the rule probably needs looking at.
Penalties and red cards
 
Yellow was a decent call and it's good to see ref using their own judgement.

They shouldn't be dictated to from Stockley park. They know the job, show them the footage and they make the call or not.

That being said, I don't think this tech works in football. It slows the game down, they get calls wrong still and it increases the focus on the refs to the detriment of the sport and entertainment.

Scrap it and just keep goal line, that can be wrong as well, due to margin of error, but doesn't have the other problems.

Bingo.
 
Yellow was a decent call and it's good to see ref using their own judgement.

They shouldn't be dictated to from Stockley park. They know the job, show them the footage and they make the call or not.

That being said, I don't think this tech works in football. It slows the game down, they get calls wrong still and it increases the focus on the refs to the detriment of the sport and entertainment.

Scrap it and just keep goal line, that can be wrong as well, due to margin of error, but doesn't have the other problems.
Keep offsides too? Just keep it semi automatic.
 
Yeah, red would be way overboard in my opinion. It's more or less the same kind of tactical foul we see multiple times in almost every game. Cucurella was looking for the foul–cutting Brooks' running path, diving, and then the embarassing face holding rubbish–and got more than he expected. For me the most important factor to refuse red is that Cucurella is diving before he has even crossed Brooks' path. So, rightly or wrongly, I'm glad a referee finally had the balls to decide for himself instead of fold to the almighty VAR. If he'd have sent him off, I'd send our scouting team out to sign Cousin Itt.

I should add that I'm all for booking tactical fouls that prevent counter attacks.

Red definitely would have been too harsh. Yellow was fine. Cucurella is already diving by the time he got hit, and he definitely tries to oversell it/con the ref into giving a red with the theatrical rolls, but he did get hit in the face and get his hair pulled.
 
Penalties and red cards
Yeah as long as it can only be used to reverse a red that the ref has given to your team. I have no interest in managers challenging yellows and getting them upgraded to red.
 
Yellow was a decent call and it's good to see ref using their own judgement.

They shouldn't be dictated to from Stockley park. They know the job, show them the footage and they make the call or not.

That being said, I don't think this tech works in football. It slows the game down, they get calls wrong still and it increases the focus on the refs to the detriment of the sport and entertainment.

Scrap it and just keep goal line, that can be wrong as well, due to margin of error, but doesn't have the other problems.

No they shouldn't be dictated too. I think the on-field ref needs to be in control. He should be shown all angles in real-time and be allowed to choose which ones to see again or to slow down etc. The VAR can tell him which angle is best for contact etc.

Often when they are sent to the screen, it seems like the VAR has decided the ref's initial decision was wrong and then only shows him one angle, slowed down and on a loop to prove his point, rather than telling the ref he should look at it again and letting him make his own mind up.
 
Kind of depends how you think about it. I find that fundamentally ridiculous, because 99 decisions in a match are made by that ref, in whatever condition he is in, then you only get the benefit of replays, lowered heart rate, time and so forth for 1 or 2.

Refereeing in football is interpretive, not factual. It's part of the game.

VAR should only be used for massive, non judgement related mistakes or misses. Or else you have what we have now: fouls that are only fouls in VAR, but not in real time.
I agree, it's how the ref is managing the game, not fastidious slavish devotion to the letter of the law.

Something has to be done so the studio commentators stop saying shit like , "well, if you look closely, there is contact..." The problem is the lack of consistency in application of the laws by the supposed neutral arbiters. Refs need to let them game breathe, and so not every foul is called and not every foul that under the strictest interpretation of the laws is a yellow is awarded. The center ref is not infallible and needs help. I'm saying, give them more help, but also eliminate this after the fact bullshit VAR stuff.
 
After the Arsenal game.

VAR should be able to take a quick look to confirm corners, ridiculous that the ref gave that as a corner and then the cnuts score from it.